Aida, and All, Ya seem to raise an interesting issue below. If the Surname sometimes changed from Czech to German or German to Czech depending on the area a family lived in or moved to, then IF we have a "Brickwall", maybe it would be good to look for the Surname as translated into the other language. Would the above be a good idea? How about with given names? Were they likely to change between languages as well? I'm tracing a Karola. His marriage record in Trnava (now Slovakia) (was Hungary) not far from the Czech border, lists his place of birth as Brno. I have not found his Birth record from Brno CZ as yet. Is it likely I will find variations of the Given Name as well? Thanks in advance, Elaine -----Original Message----- >From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >Sent: Jan 16, 2012 7:20 PM >To: GBHS <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> >Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Distinction of Czech versus German female surnames > >Under the Austrian Hungarian Empire most church records were written in the >language of its ethnic population after the 19th century. Throughout the >Austrian Hungarian Empire there were more than 9 languages spoken (German, >Hungarian, Slovakian, Czech, Polish, Ukrainian, Croatian, Serbian and >Romanian and others). Actually, the Austrian Hungarian Empire was a >fore-runner of what we have today in Europe - a "United Europe". Austria >Hungary was very international and colorful, but with a dominant German or >Hungarian administration for their regions. Regional administration used >the language of their population. During the Empire years there were > either predominantly German or Czech Cities and villages and many other >ethnic population centers. > When the Latin language of Catholic church registers was replaced by >the language of the region, it is there that you will be able to tell the >ethnicity of your ancestry by looking at the language used in these church >records. Pay attention to your find and see if they were written either in >Czech or German and you will know your families ethnicity. Surnames do >hardly pinpoint ethnicity, because intermarriage-names show as many to be >translated to German as they were translated to Czech. For instance the >German name Schmied (a smith) might be translated to the Czech >equivalent: Kovář >when they moved into a predominantly Czech region; or the Czech family by >the name by Kovar might have acquired the German name of Schmied by moving >to a predominantly German region.; so you really cannot tell just by >surnames what ethnicity they might have had. Here is an example: You can >be sure that the record shows in the Czech language if the female ending > "ova" is at the end of the surname. Here is an example: >The family surname "Schmied" would be listed as "Schmiedova or Smidova" >found in a Czech register for a female. German records would never show >the ending "ova" for a female, and the text would be German and the female >name listed as Schmied or even Smid without the "ova" ending. However, in >older records (end of 1700 and beginning of 1800) you might find the ending >"in" attached to a German surname for a German female, hence, "Schmiedin." > So remember: "ova" = Czech, no ending or "in" ending = German. This is >your key to ethnic distinction. > Aida > > >On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 3:17 PM, <nechkash@comcast.net> wrote: > >> >> >> I am quite sure of my father - my grandmother (the Wintra, Winter, >> Winters, eta) family came from Vesele, Bohemia, Czech and several >> surrounding villages in 1778. But my father - my grandfather (the Neckar >> lineage ), I am not sure. All that I know is John Neckar (my gr-gr-father) >> came through New York S tate to Wisconsin around 1854. I sometimes wonder >> if the Neckar were actually of German decent, and not Slavic. >> >> >> >> Dan Nechkash >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> From: "Aida Kraus" <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 4:49:48 PM >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] 1929/30 Czech Census! >> >> Czech and German are two entirely different languages. Czech's base roots >> are Slavic and similar to Polish and Russian. German has its base in >> Germanic language roots, like Austrian, Swiss, and is related to all >> Scandinavian languages and German dialects. If your ancestral family >> residing in Bohemia spoke both languages, they were bilingual. You spoke >> either German or Czech in Bohemia. The Czechs referred to their home >> language as "Bohemian" and the Germans from Bohemia referred to their home >> dialect "Bohemian" when they were away from home and lived in America. So >> I hope that this will make you >> aware that your family spoke two entirely different language, and now you >> have to find written records in either language to identify their >> ethnicity. >> Aida >> >> ----------------------------------------------- >> >> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 1:34 PM, <nechkash@comcast.net> wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > Hello Aida, >> > >> > >> > >> > My father was born as a second-generation US citizen in Wisconsin, but >> > didn't speak English until he went to grade school (about 1931). The >> > >> > family and all the local's spoken only the native tongue (Bohemian). He >> > and my Aunt Mary always claimed they also understand German because >> > >> > it was similar enough to the Bohemian language? Is this the case? >> > Thanks, >> > >> > >> > >> > Daniel Nechkash >> > >> >> >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Elaine, it would help to keep this probability in mind, and if they went to Slovakia, you most likely have to figure on 3 languages: Slovakian, Hungarian and German. You detect a name that is derived from a profession, like Taylor, Cooper, Smith, etc. you can use the Google translator to find the equivalent in another language. But let me tell you beforehand, that this is rare indeed, they most likely used phonetics of the original name in their spelling. I have such a case in my family: DuMont. It is spelled Dimong, Demon, Damon, and Dimmon. To "sort it out" and actually find YOUR ancestor, you have to go by location, date and parentage, mate, children! As a rule of thumb, and what I encountered in my own research, I found that there was less "translation" of a name but phonetic aberrations. However, before 1800 it might be possible, and just as emigrants from other countries anglizised their names upon receiving US Citizenship. Be alert to all possibilities, because these findings are sometimes astounding and I have gone through the same church registers several times before I made the connection. So pay attention to what you read and speak the names out loud! Aida On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 11:54 AM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: > Aida, and All, > > Ya seem to raise an interesting issue below. If the Surname sometimes > changed from Czech to German or German to Czech depending on the area a > family lived in or moved to, then IF we have a "Brickwall", maybe it would > be good to look for the Surname as translated into the other language. > > Would the above be a good idea? > > How about with given names? Were they likely to change between languages > as well? I'm tracing a Karola. His marriage record in Trnava (now Slovakia) > (was Hungary) not far from the Czech border, lists his place of birth as > Brno. I have not found his Birth record from Brno CZ as yet. Is it likely I > will find variations of the Given Name as well? > > Thanks in advance, > > Elaine > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > >Sent: Jan 16, 2012 7:20 PM > >To: GBHS <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > >Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Distinction of Czech versus German female > surnames > > > >Under the Austrian Hungarian Empire most church records were written in > the > >language of its ethnic population after the 19th century. Throughout the > >Austrian Hungarian Empire there were more than 9 languages spoken (German, > >Hungarian, Slovakian, Czech, Polish, Ukrainian, Croatian, Serbian and > >Romanian and others). Actually, the Austrian Hungarian Empire was a > >fore-runner of what we have today in Europe - a "United Europe". Austria > >Hungary was very international and colorful, but with a dominant German or > >Hungarian administration for their regions. Regional administration used > >the language of their population. During the Empire years there were > > either predominantly German or Czech Cities and villages and many other > >ethnic population centers. > > When the Latin language of Catholic church registers was replaced by > >the language of the region, it is there that you will be able to tell the > >ethnicity of your ancestry by looking at the language used in these church > >records. Pay attention to your find and see if they were written either > in > >Czech or German and you will know your families ethnicity. Surnames do > >hardly pinpoint ethnicity, because intermarriage-names show as many to be > >translated to German as they were translated to Czech. For instance the > >German name Schmied (a smith) might be translated to the Czech > >equivalent: Kovář > >when they moved into a predominantly Czech region; or the Czech family > by > >the name by Kovar might have acquired the German name of Schmied by moving > >to a predominantly German region.; so you really cannot tell just by > >surnames what ethnicity they might have had. Here is an example: You can > >be sure that the record shows in the Czech language if the female ending > > "ova" is at the end of the surname. Here is an example: > >The family surname "Schmied" would be listed as "Schmiedova or Smidova" > >found in a Czech register for a female. German records would never show > >the ending "ova" for a female, and the text would be German and the female > >name listed as Schmied or even Smid without the "ova" ending. However, in > >older records (end of 1700 and beginning of 1800) you might find the > ending > >"in" attached to a German surname for a German female, hence, "Schmiedin." > > So remember: "ova" = Czech, no ending or "in" ending = German. This is > >your key to ethnic distinction. > > Aida > > > > > >On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 3:17 PM, <nechkash@comcast.net> wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> I am quite sure of my father - my grandmother (the Wintra, Winter, > >> Winters, eta) family came from Vesele, Bohemia, Czech and several > >> surrounding villages in 1778. But my father - my grandfather (the > Neckar > >> lineage ), I am not sure. All that I know is John Neckar (my > gr-gr-father) > >> came through New York S tate to Wisconsin around 1854. I sometimes > wonder > >> if the Neckar were actually of German decent, and not Slavic. > >> > >> > >> > >> Dan Nechkash > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> > >> > >> From: "Aida Kraus" <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > >> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 4:49:48 PM > >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] 1929/30 Czech Census! > >> > >> Czech and German are two entirely different languages. Czech's base > roots > >> are Slavic and similar to Polish and Russian. German has its base in > >> Germanic language roots, like Austrian, Swiss, and is related to all > >> Scandinavian languages and German dialects. If your ancestral family > >> residing in Bohemia spoke both languages, they were bilingual. You > spoke > >> either German or Czech in Bohemia. The Czechs referred to their home > >> language as "Bohemian" and the Germans from Bohemia referred to their > home > >> dialect "Bohemian" when they were away from home and lived in America. > So > >> I hope that this will make you > >> aware that your family spoke two entirely different language, and now > you > >> have to find written records in either language to identify their > >> ethnicity. > >> Aida > >> > >> ----------------------------------------------- > >> > >> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 1:34 PM, <nechkash@comcast.net> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > Hello Aida, > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > My father was born as a second-generation US citizen in Wisconsin, but > >> > didn't speak English until he went to grade school (about 1931). The > >> > > >> > family and all the local's spoken only the native tongue (Bohemian). > He > >> > and my Aunt Mary always claimed they also understand German because > >> > > >> > it was similar enough to the Bohemian language? Is this the case? > >> > Thanks, > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Daniel Nechkash > >> > > >> > >> > >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message