Aida, do you have a blog or a website where you post all of this information you have? It's so hard to pull it all out of emails like this. If you don't have a blog, you should start one! I would read it. Brandt > From: german-bohemian-request@rootsweb.com > Subject: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 38 > To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 09:50:37 -0700 > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Austrian Hungarian Military (Aida Kraus) > 2. Re: Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's in Bohemia? > (Robert Paulson) > 3. Re: Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's in Bohemia? > (Aida Kraus) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 06:19:23 -0800 > From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Austrian Hungarian Military > To: GBHS <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: > <CAMswtwquvTQRw7JKXsA4Y7pwgSNh7ZXd216GNS2RjE1LtOnMUQ@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > The *Military of Austria-Hungary*, comprising the Armed Forces, War Office, > and intelligence organisations of the Dual > Monarchy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_Monarchy>served as one of > the Empire's core unifying institutions and primary > instruments for defense as well as external power > projection<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_projection>. > The history of the > Austro-Hungarian<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria-Hungary>military > begins when the > Habsburgs <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habsburgs> established hereditary > rule over Austrian lands in the *13th century and stretches until the fall > of the Habsburgs, at the end of **World War > I*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I> > *,* during which time their armies were among the largest and most > significant in Europe <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe>. Though not as > powerful as some of its contemporaries, the military of Austria-Hungary's > scale, resources, organization, technology and training were one of the > central factors determining conferral of 'great > power'<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_power>status on the empire > for much of the 19th and early 20th centuries. > *(Note from Aida: please note the time of the Austrian empire's > existence which was from the 13th century to WW1 1918, while Germany was > not more than just a conglomerate of Duchies and small Kingdoms of which > Bavaria was the largest. Germany as a "country" only existed during the > first Reich, which was the holy Roman Empire and included > Austria**(911?1806), the second "Reich" was under the > ** Prussian **House of > Hohenzollern*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Hohenzollern> > *, known in English as the **German > Empire*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Empire> > * (1871?1918) after that came the** republic informally called the **Weimar > Republic* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic>* (1919?33), and > the third Reich was a National Socialist State under Hitler **(1933?45) who > attempted to annex all Germanic lands as they existed under the First Reich > of 911-1806 in attempt to unify the country as it existed from 911-1806, > after all German lands were split away from the motherland by the Treaty of > Versailles in 1918 after WW1).* > * **Military in Austria Hungary:* > It was composed of three parts: the joint army (Gemeinsame Armee - Common > Army - recruited from all parts of the country), the Austrian Landwehr > (recruited from Cisleithania), and the Hungarian Honv?ds?g (recruited from > Transleithania).The joint "Imperial and Royal Army" (kaiserlich und > k?nigliche Armee or k.u.k.) units were generally poorly trained and had > very limited access to new equipment because the governments of the > Austrian and Hungarian parts of the empire often preferred to generously > fund their own units instead of outfitting all three army branches equally. > In the late 19th century the army was used to suppress unrest in urban > areas of the empire: in 1882 and 1887 in Vienna[4] and notably against > German nationalists at Graz and Czech nationalists in Prague in November > 1897[5]. Soldiers under the command of Conrad von Hotzendorf were also used > against Italian rioters in Trieste in 1902.[6] > > The most significant action by soldiers of the Dual Monarchy in this period > was the occupation of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the summer of 1878. > > In 1868 the number of active-duty troops in the army was 255,000, and the > total could be expanded to 800,000 upon mobilization. However, this was > significantly less than the European powers of France, the North German > Confederation and Russia, each of which could field more than one million > men.[8] Though the population of the empire had risen to nearly 50 million > by 1900, the size of the army was tied to ceilings established in 1889. > Thus, at the turn of the century Austria-Hungary conscripted only 0.29% of > its population, compared to 0.47% in Germany, 0.35% in Russia and 0.75% in > France.[9] The 1889 army law was not revised until 1912, which allowed for > an increase in annual conscriptions.[10] > -- *Ethnic and religious composition > *The ethnic make-up of the enlisted ranks reflected the diversity of the > empire the army served; in 1906, out of every 1000 enlisted men, there were > 267 Germans, 223 Hungarians, 135 Czechs, 85 Poles, 81 Ruthenians (or > Ukrainians), 67 Croats and Serbs, 64 Romanians, 38 Slovaks, 26 Slovenes, > and 14 Italians.[11] > >From a religious standpoint, the Austro-Hungarian army officer corps was > dominated by Catholics. In 1896, out of 1000 officers, 791 were Catholics, > 86 Protestants, 84 Jews, 39 Greek-Orthodox, and one Uniate. Of the > pre-World War military forces of the major European powers, the > Austro-Hungarian army was almost alone in its regular promotion of Jews to > positions of command.[12] While the Jewish population of the lands of the > Dual Monarchy was about 5%, Jews made up nearly 18% of the reserve officer > corps.[13] There were no official barriers to military service for Jews, > but in later years this tolerance eroded to some extent, as important > figures such as Conrad von Hotzendorf and Franz Ferdinand sometimes > expressed anti-Jewish sentiments. Franz Ferdinand was also accused (by > Conrad) of discriminating against Protestant officers.[14]Austro-Hungarian > Army in July 1914 > 30,000 Officers > 410,000 NCOs and troops > 87,000 horses (estimate) > 1,200 artillery pieces > > Official designations were as follows: > regiments of the joint army were designated Imperial and Royal (German: > "kaiserlich und k?niglich" (k.u.k.); Hungarian: "Cs?sz?ri ?s Kir?lyi") > Austrian Landwehr regiments were Imperial/Royal (German: > "kaiserlich/k?niglich" (k.k.) (which stands for *Imperial Austrian / Royal > Bohemian (kaiserlich ?sterreichisch/k?niglich b?hmisch));* Hungarian: > "cs?sz?ri/kir?lyi") > Hungarian Honv?d regiments, or "Honv?ds?g", were called Royal Hungarian > (German: "k?niglich ungarisch"; Hungarian: "Magyar Kir?lyi") > The soldiers generally had to serve 2 years, after they finished their > apprenticeships or educaton. > They were "mustered" between the ages 18 and 22. > > For general reading I have copied this for you from the Internet, but you > may read it in more detail at the link below, where you can also have a > look at the individual uniforms : > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Hungarian Army\ > Submitted by Aida > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 10:33:29 -0600 > From: Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in > 1700's in Bohemia? > To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <3D61278C-D8FB-4748-9CBF-0AF6AB7C67C0@yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Aida, Here is a "for instance" from my Swedish family. My gr-grandfather Jon Paulson came from a family of itinerant farm laborers who moved > from place to place to find work. The boys were "farmed out" at a very early age to work. They lived in a Backstugen which nothing was more than a dugout in the side of a hill. > Anyway, Jon meet Anna Katrina, then a widow, he was 20 she was 31. Anna gave birth to a son and continued to live with her parents. > Jon traveled to a neighboring parish some 50 miles away to find work. He fathered another child four years later and then Jon and Anna Katrina were married and they lived > together near where Jon was working. They had two more children before the family emigrated in 1893. Jon had preceded the family, coming to America by four years where he > worked as a surveyour on the Great Northern RR. > Bob > On Feb 14, 2012, at 12:48 AM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > > Bob, I have never heard of this, so I really cannot say. Most of the > > Egerland families supported one another when the chips were down. But it > > could have been different during industrial development areas in the late > > 19th century. I understood that the question was posed for ancestors in > > the 18th century when agricultural life was still very dominant. Having a > > concubine would have been possible only for someone who could afford > > "keeping a woman", like the nobility, statesmen, people who had jobs away > > from their homebase. And that does not include farmers. Bohemia was > > nothing like "England" who traded worldwide being an island. Bohemia was a > > landlocked area where most of the families were stout Catholics and the > > financial status among them was not as crass between rich and poor as it > > was in England for many centuries. The poor on the continent were not > > quite as destitute as in Britain, because the Monarchy made the Nobility > > responsible for the welfare of the people in their regions. There was a > > poor house in every village to care for widows with families or infirm > > people; and the nobility would either provide financial help or offer > > employment in the country villages and the same happened in the cities, > > where poor people were supported by the Burghers and often even the > > guilds. Do not mix up the stories you hear from Ireland, England, or any > > other places, because it was a very regulated life in the Austrian > > Hungarian Monarchy. Even new settlers to a new area were provided with a > > newly built farm house and acreage, they never had to live in sod houses or > > fend for themselves. If there was a lack of some kind due to tragedy in a > > family, then the churches would step in to provide the necessities on a > > community caring level. Our people were not as kind to traveling folks, > > but natives in villages and cities were taken care of by their relatives, > > neighbors, poor houses, and church alms. > > However, it is realistic enough that it would not preclude that some > > babies were born on the "other side of the blanket". Children, in general, > > were needed and very welcome. The larger the family, the stronger the > > entire family, because they had "enough hands" to work. Children made a > > family "wealthy" because they started to contribute to the farm income very > > early and were taught raising small animals and gathering of wild > > growing food in nature (mushrooms, nettles, rosehips, wild fruit, roots as > > well as vegetables and fruit from their gardens) which was the basis for > > their daily meals. The children took care of this from 6 - 14 years of > > age, and then they generally left the family thereafter when they > > apprenticed for a job. Marriages for men at age 17 and women 16 were quite > > common, because in "taking over the family farm" many young men could avoid > > military service. > > Aida > > > > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > >> Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not marry until the man could > >> prove that he was finically able to support a family? > >> I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he community did not want > >> to support a family that was not able to provide for itself > >> > >> On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > >> > >>> Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian Army (and please don't forget > >> that > >>> that this Army existed for 400 years) all soldiers of lower ranks were > >>> not allowed to marry while in service. It was different in officers > >> ranks, > >>> but then the father of the bride had to pay a dowry of 20,000 Kronen as > >>> "Kaution" (security). I do not know the exact legal ramification on > >> that, > >>> so you must read up on it. I just know the story from our family, where > >> my > >>> aunt's arguments with her father were fierce, because she desired to > >>> receive that money from him for her marriage. Since my grandfather had 6 > >>> daughters, he most certainly could not single out one of them with this > >>> privilege. > >>> And yes, these entries you found in the registers are indeed these > >>> "early born" children who were declared legitimate as soon as the father > >>> came back from his tour of duty. The Church was understanding in this, > >>> because the couple was not able to marry while the groom was serving in > >> the > >>> Military. > >>> Aida > >>> > >>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Aide, > >>>> > >>>> Wondering about something you wrote below about Military Service, > >> Marriage > >>>> and Births. > >>>> > >>>> Sometimes I notice in church registers that a woman gives birth to a > >> child > >>>> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later date, it appears a Father's name > >>>> was added and illigitamet is crossed out and ligitamete added. > >>>> > >>>> Would this be likely one of those times when the Father was away with > >> the > >>>> military? Would adding a Fathers name in such a situation happen fairly > >>>> regularly? > >>>> > >>>> Speaking of Military Service. In peace time ( was there any? ), what was > >>>> the requirement of males to military service? Did they ALL have to > >> service > >>>> or was it voluntary? > >>>> > >>>> Thanks again, > >>>> > >>>> Elaine in Maine > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > >>>>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM > >>>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >>>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in > >> 1700's > >>>> in Bohemia? > >>>>> > >>>>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood that our very Catholic families who > >>>> were > >>>>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl were polygamous. What you are > >>>>> encountering is this. The Utschig were a HUGE family. Every family > >> had > >>>>> many children, They became each others sponsors at birth and so the > >> same > >>>>> first names come up again and again. If the births were only 3 or 7 > >>>> months > >>>>> apart, then you must look into the names of the father and mother, and > >>>> even > >>>>> there you may encounter the same names. So, since no house nunbers are > >>>>> given, you have to diagram your family members with their birth dates. > >>>>> Eventually you will find out into which families they could they fit > >> it. > >>>>> This is just your guideline. > >>>>> I had a similar situation where three brothers had children and > >>>>> all of them used the same first names over and over again. And then, > >> the > >>>>> children of the NEXT generation were given the exactly same names by > >> their > >>>>> related sponsors, which of course were family member, brothers sisters, > >>>>> cousins, and still - to this day - that whole clan is somewhat of a > >>>> puzzle > >>>>> to what family they belong; but it was not unusual that a woman gave > >>>> birth > >>>>> to 19 children.... one every year until menopause.. That does not mean > >>>> that > >>>>> they all survived, but they are, or course, listed as births in the > >>>> church > >>>>> register. So go then to the death register and see who was listed > >> there > >>>>> and there they also give the names of the parents. It will help you to > >>>>> sort out the families. If you compare birth register to death register > >>>> you > >>>>> will find more clarity. > >>>>> Go back as far as you can and write down the names of the > >> couples > >>>>> (meaning families of siblings). Then, write down the names of their > >>>>> children and next to it the birth date and if you find a death entry as > >>>>> well...... > >>>>> And then see, how they fit. > >>>>> And this is the way you can sort it out. > >>>>> Good luck. > >>>>> Birth of 18 children is absolutely possible, we have found that many > >>>> times > >>>>> and from the same couple. Thre are also multiple marriages, but forget > >>>>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were far to religious. Pre marital > >> birth > >>>> of > >>>>> children are possible, because the men were not able to marry while in > >>>>> military service and could not wait that long. They usually married > >>>>> immediately when they were released. > >>>>> As far as children born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my > >>>>> mother's side gave birth to 13 children in the late 1800, of which 7 > >> lived > >>>>> through their childhood diseases which killed many of their siblings. > >> The > >>>>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, Diphteria, whooping cough, "Pocken" > >>>>> which is smallpox and disentery. > >>>>> They solely relied on herbal medicines then. > >>>>> Aida > >>>>> > >>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> > >> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife > >> (polygamy) > >>>> in > >>>>>> the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines? (I understand > >> in > >>>>>> Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of men, so > >>>> many > >>>>>> having been killed in wars.) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as being > >> Anna > >>>>>> Catharina. I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina > >>>> Pichl/B?chl), > >>>>>> but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate > >>>> marriages. > >>>>>> Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who born him > >>>> many > >>>>>> children. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina before > >> the > >>>>>> 1728 marriage I found. This is important to me because my 3rd great > >>>>>> grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed like > >> in > >>>>>> the later records. No haus numbers, no names of parents. Two > >> children > >>>>>> born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart. The rest of the > >>>> children > >>>>>> are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna Catharina. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first Anna > >>>>>> Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned above who > >>>> were > >>>>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the other in > >>>> 1739 > >>>>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between). So my theory > >> on > >>>> the > >>>>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold up. Too many children born in between > >>>> 1729 > >>>>>> and 1739. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I hope this makes sense. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Mary > >>>>>> > >>>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >>>> without > >>>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>>>> > >>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscr > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 08:50:33 -0800 > From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in > 1700's in Bohemia? > To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <CAMswtwpWVhMk60e9vvfqpS03E40DTd28mC1h1UgYp1EvzbKK3w@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Bob, you cannot apply Swedish family life to that of the continent. As I > have stated before, the maritime countries had a very different culture > than the landlocked European Interior. > Also the Northern countries were mostly Protestant and with it quite a > different culture developed versus the stout Catholic or Greek Orthodox > church influence on the mainland which was less flexible. > Aida > > On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 8:33 AM, Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Aida, Here is a "for instance" from my Swedish family. My gr-grandfather > > Jon Paulson came from a family of itinerant farm laborers who moved > > from place to place to find work. The boys were "farmed out" at a very > > early age to work. They lived in a Backstugen which nothing was more than > > a dugout in the side of a hill. > > Anyway, Jon meet Anna Katrina, then a widow, he was 20 she was 31. Anna > > gave birth to a son and continued to live with her parents. > > Jon traveled to a neighboring parish some 50 miles away to find work. He > > fathered another child four years later and then Jon and Anna Katrina were > > married and they lived > > together near where Jon was working. They had two more children before the > > family emigrated in 1893. Jon had preceded the family, coming to America > > by four years where he > > worked as a surveyour on the Great Northern RR. > > Bob > > On Feb 14, 2012, at 12:48 AM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > > > > Bob, I have never heard of this, so I really cannot say. Most of the > > > Egerland families supported one another when the chips were down. But > > it > > > could have been different during industrial development areas in the late > > > 19th century. I understood that the question was posed for ancestors in > > > the 18th century when agricultural life was still very dominant. Having > > a > > > concubine would have been possible only for someone who could afford > > > "keeping a woman", like the nobility, statesmen, people who had jobs away > > > from their homebase. And that does not include farmers. Bohemia was > > > nothing like "England" who traded worldwide being an island. Bohemia > > was a > > > landlocked area where most of the families were stout Catholics and the > > > financial status among them was not as crass between rich and poor as it > > > was in England for many centuries. The poor on the continent were not > > > quite as destitute as in Britain, because the Monarchy made the Nobility > > > responsible for the welfare of the people in their regions. There was a > > > poor house in every village to care for widows with families or infirm > > > people; and the nobility would either provide financial help or offer > > > employment in the country villages and the same happened in the cities, > > > where poor people were supported by the Burghers and often even the > > > guilds. Do not mix up the stories you hear from Ireland, England, or > > any > > > other places, because it was a very regulated life in the Austrian > > > Hungarian Monarchy. Even new settlers to a new area were provided with a > > > newly built farm house and acreage, they never had to live in sod houses > > or > > > fend for themselves. If there was a lack of some kind due to tragedy in > > a > > > family, then the churches would step in to provide the necessities on a > > > community caring level. Our people were not as kind to traveling folks, > > > but natives in villages and cities were taken care of by their relatives, > > > neighbors, poor houses, and church alms. > > > However, it is realistic enough that it would not preclude that some > > > babies were born on the "other side of the blanket". Children, in > > general, > > > were needed and very welcome. The larger the family, the stronger the > > > entire family, because they had "enough hands" to work. Children made > > a > > > family "wealthy" because they started to contribute to the farm income > > very > > > early and were taught raising small animals and gathering of wild > > > growing food in nature (mushrooms, nettles, rosehips, wild fruit, roots > > as > > > well as vegetables and fruit from their gardens) which was the basis for > > > their daily meals. The children took care of this from 6 - 14 years of > > > age, and then they generally left the family thereafter when they > > > apprenticed for a job. Marriages for men at age 17 and women 16 were > > quite > > > common, because in "taking over the family farm" many young men could > > avoid > > > military service. > > > Aida > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> > > wrote: > > > > > >> Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not marry until the man > > could > > >> prove that he was finically able to support a family? > > >> I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he community did not > > want > > >> to support a family that was not able to provide for itself > > >> > > >> On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > >> > > >>> Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian Army (and please don't forget > > >> that > > >>> that this Army existed for 400 years) all soldiers of lower ranks were > > >>> not allowed to marry while in service. It was different in officers > > >> ranks, > > >>> but then the father of the bride had to pay a dowry of 20,000 Kronen as > > >>> "Kaution" (security). I do not know the exact legal ramification on > > >> that, > > >>> so you must read up on it. I just know the story from our family, > > where > > >> my > > >>> aunt's arguments with her father were fierce, because she desired to > > >>> receive that money from him for her marriage. Since my grandfather > > had 6 > > >>> daughters, he most certainly could not single out one of them with this > > >>> privilege. > > >>> And yes, these entries you found in the registers are indeed these > > >>> "early born" children who were declared legitimate as soon as the > > father > > >>> came back from his tour of duty. The Church was understanding in > > this, > > >>> because the couple was not able to marry while the groom was serving in > > >> the > > >>> Military. > > >>> Aida > > >>> > > >>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Aide, > > >>>> > > >>>> Wondering about something you wrote below about Military Service, > > >> Marriage > > >>>> and Births. > > >>>> > > >>>> Sometimes I notice in church registers that a woman gives birth to a > > >> child > > >>>> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later date, it appears a Father's > > name > > >>>> was added and illigitamet is crossed out and ligitamete added. > > >>>> > > >>>> Would this be likely one of those times when the Father was away with > > >> the > > >>>> military? Would adding a Fathers name in such a situation happen > > fairly > > >>>> regularly? > > >>>> > > >>>> Speaking of Military Service. In peace time ( was there any? ), what > > was > > >>>> the requirement of males to military service? Did they ALL have to > > >> service > > >>>> or was it voluntary? > > >>>> > > >>>> Thanks again, > > >>>> > > >>>> Elaine in Maine > > >>>> > > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > > >>>>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM > > >>>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in > > >> 1700's > > >>>> in Bohemia? > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood that our very Catholic families > > who > > >>>> were > > >>>>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl were polygamous. What you are > > >>>>> encountering is this. The Utschig were a HUGE family. Every family > > >> had > > >>>>> many children, They became each others sponsors at birth and so the > > >> same > > >>>>> first names come up again and again. If the births were only 3 or 7 > > >>>> months > > >>>>> apart, then you must look into the names of the father and mother, > > and > > >>>> even > > >>>>> there you may encounter the same names. So, since no house nunbers > > are > > >>>>> given, you have to diagram your family members with their birth > > dates. > > >>>>> Eventually you will find out into which families they could they fit > > >> it. > > >>>>> This is just your guideline. > > >>>>> I had a similar situation where three brothers had children and > > >>>>> all of them used the same first names over and over again. And > > then, > > >> the > > >>>>> children of the NEXT generation were given the exactly same names by > > >> their > > >>>>> related sponsors, which of course were family member, brothers > > sisters, > > >>>>> cousins, and still - to this day - that whole clan is somewhat of a > > >>>> puzzle > > >>>>> to what family they belong; but it was not unusual that a woman gave > > >>>> birth > > >>>>> to 19 children.... one every year until menopause.. That does not > > mean > > >>>> that > > >>>>> they all survived, but they are, or course, listed as births in the > > >>>> church > > >>>>> register. So go then to the death register and see who was listed > > >> there > > >>>>> and there they also give the names of the parents. It will help you > > to > > >>>>> sort out the families. If you compare birth register to death > > register > > >>>> you > > >>>>> will find more clarity. > > >>>>> Go back as far as you can and write down the names of the > > >> couples > > >>>>> (meaning families of siblings). Then, write down the names of their > > >>>>> children and next to it the birth date and if you find a death entry > > as > > >>>>> well...... > > >>>>> And then see, how they fit. > > >>>>> And this is the way you can sort it out. > > >>>>> Good luck. > > >>>>> Birth of 18 children is absolutely possible, we have found that many > > >>>> times > > >>>>> and from the same couple. Thre are also multiple marriages, but > > forget > > >>>>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were far to religious. Pre marital > > >> birth > > >>>> of > > >>>>> children are possible, because the men were not able to marry while > > in > > >>>>> military service and could not wait that long. They usually married > > >>>>> immediately when they were released. > > >>>>> As far as children born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my > > >>>>> mother's side gave birth to 13 children in the late 1800, of which 7 > > >> lived > > >>>>> through their childhood diseases which killed many of their siblings. > > >> The > > >>>>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, Diphteria, whooping cough, > > "Pocken" > > >>>>> which is smallpox and disentery. > > >>>>> They solely relied on herbal medicines then. > > >>>>> Aida > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> > > >> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife > > >> (polygamy) > > >>>> in > > >>>>>> the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines? (I understand > > >> in > > >>>>>> Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of men, > > so > > >>>> many > > >>>>>> having been killed in wars.) > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as being > > >> Anna > > >>>>>> Catharina. I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina > > >>>> Pichl/B?chl), > > >>>>>> but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate > > >>>> marriages. > > >>>>>> Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who born > > him > > >>>> many > > >>>>>> children. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina before > > >> the > > >>>>>> 1728 marriage I found. This is important to me because my 3rd great > > >>>>>> grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed like > > >> in > > >>>>>> the later records. No haus numbers, no names of parents. Two > > >> children > > >>>>>> born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart. The rest of the > > >>>> children > > >>>>>> are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna Catharina. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first Anna > > >>>>>> Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned above > > who > > >>>> were > > >>>>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the other > > in > > >>>> 1739 > > >>>>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between). So my theory > > >> on > > >>>> the > > >>>>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold up. Too many children born in between > > >>>> 1729 > > >>>>>> and 1739. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I hope this makes sense. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Mary > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > >>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >>>>>> ------------------------------- > > >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >>>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >>>> without > > >>>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >>>>> ------------------------------- > > >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> without > > >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >>>> ------------------------------- > > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> without > > >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >>>> > > >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >>> ------------------------------- > > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > >> > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >> ------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscr > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN list administrator, send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN mailing list, send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 38 > **********************************************

Sorry, I do not maintain my own website, but on the list you can find my answers to questions posed there. You can find them under the subject and the originators name on the GBHS Archives at this site: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Aida On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 10:10 PM, Brandt Gibson <ironhide781@hotmail.com>wrote: > > Aida, do you have a blog or a website where you post all of this > information you have? It's so hard to pull it all out of emails like this. > If you don't have a blog, you should start one! I would read it. Brandt > > From: german-bohemian-request@rootsweb.com > > Subject: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 38 > > To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 09:50:37 -0700 > > > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Austrian Hungarian Military (Aida Kraus) > > 2. Re: Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's in Bohemia? > > (Robert Paulson) > > 3. Re: Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's in Bohemia? > > (Aida Kraus) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 06:19:23 -0800 > > From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Austrian Hungarian Military > > To: GBHS <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > > Message-ID: > > < > CAMswtwquvTQRw7JKXsA4Y7pwgSNh7ZXd216GNS2RjE1LtOnMUQ@mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > The *Military of Austria-Hungary*, comprising the Armed Forces, War > Office, > > and intelligence organisations of the Dual > > Monarchy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_Monarchy>served as one of > > the Empire's core unifying institutions and primary > > instruments for defense as well as external power > > projection<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_projection>. > > The history of the > > Austro-Hungarian<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria-Hungary>military > > begins when the > > Habsburgs <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habsburgs> established > hereditary > > rule over Austrian lands in the *13th century and stretches until the > fall > > of the Habsburgs, at the end of **World War > > I*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I> > > *,* during which time their armies were among the largest and most > > significant in Europe <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe>. Though not > as > > powerful as some of its contemporaries, the military of Austria-Hungary's > > scale, resources, organization, technology and training were one of the > > central factors determining conferral of 'great > > power'<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_power>status on the empire > > for much of the 19th and early 20th centuries. > > *(Note from Aida: please note the time of the Austrian empire's > > existence which was from the 13th century to WW1 1918, while Germany was > > not more than just a conglomerate of Duchies and small Kingdoms of which > > Bavaria was the largest. Germany as a "country" only existed during the > > first Reich, which was the holy Roman Empire and included > > Austria**(911?1806), the second "Reich" was under the > > ** Prussian **House of > > Hohenzollern*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Hohenzollern> > > *, known in English as the **German > > Empire*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Empire> > > * (1871?1918) after that came the** republic informally called the > **Weimar > > Republic* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic>* (1919?33), and > > the third Reich was a National Socialist State under Hitler **(1933?45) > who > > attempted to annex all Germanic lands as they existed under the First > Reich > > of 911-1806 in attempt to unify the country as it existed from 911-1806, > > after all German lands were split away from the motherland by the Treaty > of > > Versailles in 1918 after WW1).* > > * **Military in Austria Hungary:* > > It was composed of three parts: the joint army (Gemeinsame Armee - Common > > Army - recruited from all parts of the country), the Austrian Landwehr > > (recruited from Cisleithania), and the Hungarian Honv?ds?g (recruited > from > > Transleithania).The joint "Imperial and Royal Army" (kaiserlich und > > k?nigliche Armee or k.u.k.) units were generally poorly trained and had > > very limited access to new equipment because the governments of the > > Austrian and Hungarian parts of the empire often preferred to generously > > fund their own units instead of outfitting all three army branches > equally. > > In the late 19th century the army was used to suppress unrest in urban > > areas of the empire: in 1882 and 1887 in Vienna[4] and notably against > > German nationalists at Graz and Czech nationalists in Prague in November > > 1897[5]. Soldiers under the command of Conrad von Hotzendorf were also > used > > against Italian rioters in Trieste in 1902.[6] > > > > The most significant action by soldiers of the Dual Monarchy in this > period > > was the occupation of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the summer of 1878. > > > > In 1868 the number of active-duty troops in the army was 255,000, and the > > total could be expanded to 800,000 upon mobilization. However, this was > > significantly less than the European powers of France, the North German > > Confederation and Russia, each of which could field more than one million > > men.[8] Though the population of the empire had risen to nearly 50 > million > > by 1900, the size of the army was tied to ceilings established in 1889. > > Thus, at the turn of the century Austria-Hungary conscripted only 0.29% > of > > its population, compared to 0.47% in Germany, 0.35% in Russia and 0.75% > in > > France.[9] The 1889 army law was not revised until 1912, which allowed > for > > an increase in annual conscriptions.[10] > > -- *Ethnic and religious composition > > *The ethnic make-up of the enlisted ranks reflected the diversity of the > > empire the army served; in 1906, out of every 1000 enlisted men, there > were > > 267 Germans, 223 Hungarians, 135 Czechs, 85 Poles, 81 Ruthenians (or > > Ukrainians), 67 Croats and Serbs, 64 Romanians, 38 Slovaks, 26 Slovenes, > > and 14 Italians.[11] > > >From a religious standpoint, the Austro-Hungarian army officer corps was > > dominated by Catholics. In 1896, out of 1000 officers, 791 were > Catholics, > > 86 Protestants, 84 Jews, 39 Greek-Orthodox, and one Uniate. Of the > > pre-World War military forces of the major European powers, the > > Austro-Hungarian army was almost alone in its regular promotion of Jews > to > > positions of command.[12] While the Jewish population of the lands of the > > Dual Monarchy was about 5%, Jews made up nearly 18% of the reserve > officer > > corps.[13] There were no official barriers to military service for Jews, > > but in later years this tolerance eroded to some extent, as important > > figures such as Conrad von Hotzendorf and Franz Ferdinand sometimes > > expressed anti-Jewish sentiments. Franz Ferdinand was also accused (by > > Conrad) of discriminating against Protestant > officers.[14]Austro-Hungarian > > Army in July 1914 > > 30,000 Officers > > 410,000 NCOs and troops > > 87,000 horses (estimate) > > 1,200 artillery pieces > > > > Official designations were as follows: > > regiments of the joint army were designated Imperial and Royal (German: > > "kaiserlich und k?niglich" (k.u.k.); Hungarian: "Cs?sz?ri ?s Kir?lyi") > > Austrian Landwehr regiments were Imperial/Royal (German: > > "kaiserlich/k?niglich" (k.k.) (which stands for *Imperial Austrian / > Royal > > Bohemian (kaiserlich ?sterreichisch/k?niglich b?hmisch));* Hungarian: > > "cs?sz?ri/kir?lyi") > > Hungarian Honv?d regiments, or "Honv?ds?g", were called Royal Hungarian > > (German: "k?niglich ungarisch"; Hungarian: "Magyar Kir?lyi") > > The soldiers generally had to serve 2 years, after they finished their > > apprenticeships or educaton. > > They were "mustered" between the ages 18 and 22. > > > > For general reading I have copied this for you from the Internet, but you > > may read it in more detail at the link below, where you can also have a > > look at the individual uniforms : > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Hungarian Army\ > > Submitted by Aida > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 10:33:29 -0600 > > From: Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> > > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in > > 1700's in Bohemia? > > To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > Message-ID: <3D61278C-D8FB-4748-9CBF-0AF6AB7C67C0@yahoo.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > > Aida, Here is a "for instance" from my Swedish family. My gr-grandfather > Jon Paulson came from a family of itinerant farm laborers who moved > > from place to place to find work. The boys were "farmed out" at a very > early age to work. They lived in a Backstugen which nothing was more than > a dugout in the side of a hill. > > Anyway, Jon meet Anna Katrina, then a widow, he was 20 she was 31. Anna > gave birth to a son and continued to live with her parents. > > Jon traveled to a neighboring parish some 50 miles away to find work. > He fathered another child four years later and then Jon and Anna Katrina > were married and they lived > > together near where Jon was working. They had two more children before > the family emigrated in 1893. Jon had preceded the family, coming to > America by four years where he > > worked as a surveyour on the Great Northern RR. > > Bob > > On Feb 14, 2012, at 12:48 AM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > > > > Bob, I have never heard of this, so I really cannot say. Most of the > > > Egerland families supported one another when the chips were down. > But it > > > could have been different during industrial development areas in the > late > > > 19th century. I understood that the question was posed for ancestors > in > > > the 18th century when agricultural life was still very dominant. > Having a > > > concubine would have been possible only for someone who could afford > > > "keeping a woman", like the nobility, statesmen, people who had jobs > away > > > from their homebase. And that does not include farmers. Bohemia was > > > nothing like "England" who traded worldwide being an island. Bohemia > was a > > > landlocked area where most of the families were stout Catholics and the > > > financial status among them was not as crass between rich and poor as > it > > > was in England for many centuries. The poor on the continent were not > > > quite as destitute as in Britain, because the Monarchy made the > Nobility > > > responsible for the welfare of the people in their regions. There was a > > > poor house in every village to care for widows with families or infirm > > > people; and the nobility would either provide financial help or offer > > > employment in the country villages and the same happened in the cities, > > > where poor people were supported by the Burghers and often even the > > > guilds. Do not mix up the stories you hear from Ireland, England, or > any > > > other places, because it was a very regulated life in the Austrian > > > Hungarian Monarchy. Even new settlers to a new area were provided with > a > > > newly built farm house and acreage, they never had to live in sod > houses or > > > fend for themselves. If there was a lack of some kind due to tragedy > in a > > > family, then the churches would step in to provide the necessities on > a > > > community caring level. Our people were not as kind to traveling > folks, > > > but natives in villages and cities were taken care of by their > relatives, > > > neighbors, poor houses, and church alms. > > > However, it is realistic enough that it would not preclude that > some > > > babies were born on the "other side of the blanket". Children, in > general, > > > were needed and very welcome. The larger the family, the stronger the > > > entire family, because they had "enough hands" to work. Children > made a > > > family "wealthy" because they started to contribute to the farm income > very > > > early and were taught raising small animals and gathering of wild > > > growing food in nature (mushrooms, nettles, rosehips, wild fruit, > roots as > > > well as vegetables and fruit from their gardens) which was the basis > for > > > their daily meals. The children took care of this from 6 - 14 years of > > > age, and then they generally left the family thereafter when they > > > apprenticed for a job. Marriages for men at age 17 and women 16 were > quite > > > common, because in "taking over the family farm" many young men could > avoid > > > military service. > > > Aida > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > > > >> Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not marry until the man > could > > >> prove that he was finically able to support a family? > > >> I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he community did not > want > > >> to support a family that was not able to provide for itself > > >> > > >> On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > >> > > >>> Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian Army (and please don't > forget > > >> that > > >>> that this Army existed for 400 years) all soldiers of lower ranks > were > > >>> not allowed to marry while in service. It was different in officers > > >> ranks, > > >>> but then the father of the bride had to pay a dowry of 20,000 Kronen > as > > >>> "Kaution" (security). I do not know the exact legal ramification on > > >> that, > > >>> so you must read up on it. I just know the story from our family, > where > > >> my > > >>> aunt's arguments with her father were fierce, because she desired to > > >>> receive that money from him for her marriage. Since my grandfather > had 6 > > >>> daughters, he most certainly could not single out one of them with > this > > >>> privilege. > > >>> And yes, these entries you found in the registers are indeed > these > > >>> "early born" children who were declared legitimate as soon as the > father > > >>> came back from his tour of duty. The Church was understanding in > this, > > >>> because the couple was not able to marry while the groom was serving > in > > >> the > > >>> Military. > > >>> Aida > > >>> > > >>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Aide, > > >>>> > > >>>> Wondering about something you wrote below about Military Service, > > >> Marriage > > >>>> and Births. > > >>>> > > >>>> Sometimes I notice in church registers that a woman gives birth to a > > >> child > > >>>> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later date, it appears a Father's > name > > >>>> was added and illigitamet is crossed out and ligitamete added. > > >>>> > > >>>> Would this be likely one of those times when the Father was away > with > > >> the > > >>>> military? Would adding a Fathers name in such a situation happen > fairly > > >>>> regularly? > > >>>> > > >>>> Speaking of Military Service. In peace time ( was there any? ), > what was > > >>>> the requirement of males to military service? Did they ALL have to > > >> service > > >>>> or was it voluntary? > > >>>> > > >>>> Thanks again, > > >>>> > > >>>> Elaine in Maine > > >>>> > > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > > >>>>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM > > >>>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in > > >> 1700's > > >>>> in Bohemia? > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood that our very Catholic families > who > > >>>> were > > >>>>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl were polygamous. What you are > > >>>>> encountering is this. The Utschig were a HUGE family. Every > family > > >> had > > >>>>> many children, They became each others sponsors at birth and so the > > >> same > > >>>>> first names come up again and again. If the births were only 3 or > 7 > > >>>> months > > >>>>> apart, then you must look into the names of the father and mother, > and > > >>>> even > > >>>>> there you may encounter the same names. So, since no house > nunbers are > > >>>>> given, you have to diagram your family members with their birth > dates. > > >>>>> Eventually you will find out into which families they could they > fit > > >> it. > > >>>>> This is just your guideline. > > >>>>> I had a similar situation where three brothers had children > and > > >>>>> all of them used the same first names over and over again. And > then, > > >> the > > >>>>> children of the NEXT generation were given the exactly same names > by > > >> their > > >>>>> related sponsors, which of course were family member, brothers > sisters, > > >>>>> cousins, and still - to this day - that whole clan is somewhat of > a > > >>>> puzzle > > >>>>> to what family they belong; but it was not unusual that a woman > gave > > >>>> birth > > >>>>> to 19 children.... one every year until menopause.. That does not > mean > > >>>> that > > >>>>> they all survived, but they are, or course, listed as births in > the > > >>>> church > > >>>>> register. So go then to the death register and see who was listed > > >> there > > >>>>> and there they also give the names of the parents. It will help > you to > > >>>>> sort out the families. If you compare birth register to death > register > > >>>> you > > >>>>> will find more clarity. > > >>>>> Go back as far as you can and write down the names of the > > >> couples > > >>>>> (meaning families of siblings). Then, write down the names of > their > > >>>>> children and next to it the birth date and if you find a death > entry as > > >>>>> well...... > > >>>>> And then see, how they fit. > > >>>>> And this is the way you can sort it out. > > >>>>> Good luck. > > >>>>> Birth of 18 children is absolutely possible, we have found that > many > > >>>> times > > >>>>> and from the same couple. Thre are also multiple marriages, but > forget > > >>>>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were far to religious. Pre marital > > >> birth > > >>>> of > > >>>>> children are possible, because the men were not able to marry > while in > > >>>>> military service and could not wait that long. They usually > married > > >>>>> immediately when they were released. > > >>>>> As far as children born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my > > >>>>> mother's side gave birth to 13 children in the late 1800, of which > 7 > > >> lived > > >>>>> through their childhood diseases which killed many of their > siblings. > > >> The > > >>>>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, Diphteria, whooping cough, > "Pocken" > > >>>>> which is smallpox and disentery. > > >>>>> They solely relied on herbal medicines then. > > >>>>> Aida > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> > > >> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife > > >> (polygamy) > > >>>> in > > >>>>>> the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines? (I > understand > > >> in > > >>>>>> Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of > men, so > > >>>> many > > >>>>>> having been killed in wars.) > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as > being > > >> Anna > > >>>>>> Catharina. I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina > > >>>> Pichl/B?chl), > > >>>>>> but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate > > >>>> marriages. > > >>>>>> Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who born > him > > >>>> many > > >>>>>> children. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina > before > > >> the > > >>>>>> 1728 marriage I found. This is important to me because my 3rd > great > > >>>>>> grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed > like > > >> in > > >>>>>> the later records. No haus numbers, no names of parents. Two > > >> children > > >>>>>> born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart. The rest of the > > >>>> children > > >>>>>> are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna Catharina. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first Anna > > >>>>>> Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned > above who > > >>>> were > > >>>>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the > other in > > >>>> 1739 > > >>>>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between). So my > theory > > >> on > > >>>> the > > >>>>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold up. Too many children born in > between > > >>>> 1729 > > >>>>>> and 1739. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I hope this makes > sense. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Mary > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > >>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >>>>>> ------------------------------- > > >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >>>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >>>> without > > >>>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >>>>> ------------------------------- > > >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> without > > >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >>>> ------------------------------- > > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> without > > >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >>>> > > >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >>> ------------------------------- > > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > >> > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >> ------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscr > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 08:50:33 -0800 > > From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in > > 1700's in Bohemia? > > To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > Message-ID: > > < > CAMswtwpWVhMk60e9vvfqpS03E40DTd28mC1h1UgYp1EvzbKK3w@mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > Bob, you cannot apply Swedish family life to that of the continent. As I > > have stated before, the maritime countries had a very different culture > > than the landlocked European Interior. > > Also the Northern countries were mostly Protestant and with it quite a > > different culture developed versus the stout Catholic or Greek Orthodox > > church influence on the mainland which was less flexible. > > Aida > > > > On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 8:33 AM, Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > > > Aida, Here is a "for instance" from my Swedish family. My > gr-grandfather > > > Jon Paulson came from a family of itinerant farm laborers who moved > > > from place to place to find work. The boys were "farmed out" at a very > > > early age to work. They lived in a Backstugen which nothing was more > than > > > a dugout in the side of a hill. > > > Anyway, Jon meet Anna Katrina, then a widow, he was 20 she was 31. > Anna > > > gave birth to a son and continued to live with her parents. > > > Jon traveled to a neighboring parish some 50 miles away to find work. > He > > > fathered another child four years later and then Jon and Anna Katrina > were > > > married and they lived > > > together near where Jon was working. They had two more children before > the > > > family emigrated in 1893. Jon had preceded the family, coming to > America > > > by four years where he > > > worked as a surveyour on the Great Northern RR. > > > Bob > > > On Feb 14, 2012, at 12:48 AM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > > > > > > Bob, I have never heard of this, so I really cannot say. Most of the > > > > Egerland families supported one another when the chips were down. > But > > > it > > > > could have been different during industrial development areas in the > late > > > > 19th century. I understood that the question was posed for > ancestors in > > > > the 18th century when agricultural life was still very dominant. > Having > > > a > > > > concubine would have been possible only for someone who could afford > > > > "keeping a woman", like the nobility, statesmen, people who had jobs > away > > > > from their homebase. And that does not include farmers. Bohemia was > > > > nothing like "England" who traded worldwide being an island. Bohemia > > > was a > > > > landlocked area where most of the families were stout Catholics and > the > > > > financial status among them was not as crass between rich and poor > as it > > > > was in England for many centuries. The poor on the continent were > not > > > > quite as destitute as in Britain, because the Monarchy made the > Nobility > > > > responsible for the welfare of the people in their regions. There > was a > > > > poor house in every village to care for widows with families or > infirm > > > > people; and the nobility would either provide financial help or > offer > > > > employment in the country villages and the same happened in the > cities, > > > > where poor people were supported by the Burghers and often even the > > > > guilds. Do not mix up the stories you hear from Ireland, England, > or > > > any > > > > other places, because it was a very regulated life in the Austrian > > > > Hungarian Monarchy. Even new settlers to a new area were provided > with a > > > > newly built farm house and acreage, they never had to live in sod > houses > > > or > > > > fend for themselves. If there was a lack of some kind due to > tragedy in > > > a > > > > family, then the churches would step in to provide the necessities > on a > > > > community caring level. Our people were not as kind to traveling > folks, > > > > but natives in villages and cities were taken care of by their > relatives, > > > > neighbors, poor houses, and church alms. > > > > However, it is realistic enough that it would not preclude that > some > > > > babies were born on the "other side of the blanket". Children, in > > > general, > > > > were needed and very welcome. The larger the family, the stronger the > > > > entire family, because they had "enough hands" to work. Children > made > > > a > > > > family "wealthy" because they started to contribute to the farm > income > > > very > > > > early and were taught raising small animals and gathering of wild > > > > growing food in nature (mushrooms, nettles, rosehips, wild fruit, > roots > > > as > > > > well as vegetables and fruit from their gardens) which was the > basis for > > > > their daily meals. The children took care of this from 6 - 14 years > of > > > > age, and then they generally left the family thereafter when they > > > > apprenticed for a job. Marriages for men at age 17 and women 16 were > > > quite > > > > common, because in "taking over the family farm" many young men could > > > avoid > > > > military service. > > > > Aida > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not marry until the man > > > could > > > >> prove that he was finically able to support a family? > > > >> I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he community did > not > > > want > > > >> to support a family that was not able to provide for itself > > > >> > > > >> On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian Army (and please don't > forget > > > >> that > > > >>> that this Army existed for 400 years) all soldiers of lower ranks > were > > > >>> not allowed to marry while in service. It was different in officers > > > >> ranks, > > > >>> but then the father of the bride had to pay a dowry of 20,000 > Kronen as > > > >>> "Kaution" (security). I do not know the exact legal ramification > on > > > >> that, > > > >>> so you must read up on it. I just know the story from our family, > > > where > > > >> my > > > >>> aunt's arguments with her father were fierce, because she desired > to > > > >>> receive that money from him for her marriage. Since my grandfather > > > had 6 > > > >>> daughters, he most certainly could not single out one of them with > this > > > >>> privilege. > > > >>> And yes, these entries you found in the registers are indeed > these > > > >>> "early born" children who were declared legitimate as soon as the > > > father > > > >>> came back from his tour of duty. The Church was understanding in > > > this, > > > >>> because the couple was not able to marry while the groom was > serving in > > > >> the > > > >>> Military. > > > >>> Aida > > > >>> > > > >>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> Aide, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Wondering about something you wrote below about Military Service, > > > >> Marriage > > > >>>> and Births. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Sometimes I notice in church registers that a woman gives birth > to a > > > >> child > > > >>>> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later date, it appears a > Father's > > > name > > > >>>> was added and illigitamet is crossed out and ligitamete added. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Would this be likely one of those times when the Father was away > with > > > >> the > > > >>>> military? Would adding a Fathers name in such a situation happen > > > fairly > > > >>>> regularly? > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Speaking of Military Service. In peace time ( was there any? ), > what > > > was > > > >>>> the requirement of males to military service? Did they ALL have > to > > > >> service > > > >>>> or was it voluntary? > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Thanks again, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Elaine in Maine > > > >>>> > > > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > > >>>>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > > > >>>>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM > > > >>>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines > in > > > >> 1700's > > > >>>> in Bohemia? > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood that our very Catholic > families > > > who > > > >>>> were > > > >>>>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl were polygamous. What you > are > > > >>>>> encountering is this. The Utschig were a HUGE family. Every > family > > > >> had > > > >>>>> many children, They became each others sponsors at birth and so > the > > > >> same > > > >>>>> first names come up again and again. If the births were only 3 > or 7 > > > >>>> months > > > >>>>> apart, then you must look into the names of the father and > mother, > > > and > > > >>>> even > > > >>>>> there you may encounter the same names. So, since no house > nunbers > > > are > > > >>>>> given, you have to diagram your family members with their birth > > > dates. > > > >>>>> Eventually you will find out into which families they could they > fit > > > >> it. > > > >>>>> This is just your guideline. > > > >>>>> I had a similar situation where three brothers had children > and > > > >>>>> all of them used the same first names over and over again. And > > > then, > > > >> the > > > >>>>> children of the NEXT generation were given the exactly same > names by > > > >> their > > > >>>>> related sponsors, which of course were family member, brothers > > > sisters, > > > >>>>> cousins, and still - to this day - that whole clan is somewhat > of a > > > >>>> puzzle > > > >>>>> to what family they belong; but it was not unusual that a woman > gave > > > >>>> birth > > > >>>>> to 19 children.... one every year until menopause.. That does not > > > mean > > > >>>> that > > > >>>>> they all survived, but they are, or course, listed as births in > the > > > >>>> church > > > >>>>> register. So go then to the death register and see who was > listed > > > >> there > > > >>>>> and there they also give the names of the parents. It will help > you > > > to > > > >>>>> sort out the families. If you compare birth register to death > > > register > > > >>>> you > > > >>>>> will find more clarity. > > > >>>>> Go back as far as you can and write down the names of the > > > >> couples > > > >>>>> (meaning families of siblings). Then, write down the names of > their > > > >>>>> children and next to it the birth date and if you find a death > entry > > > as > > > >>>>> well...... > > > >>>>> And then see, how they fit. > > > >>>>> And this is the way you can sort it out. > > > >>>>> Good luck. > > > >>>>> Birth of 18 children is absolutely possible, we have found that > many > > > >>>> times > > > >>>>> and from the same couple. Thre are also multiple marriages, but > > > forget > > > >>>>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were far to religious. Pre > marital > > > >> birth > > > >>>> of > > > >>>>> children are possible, because the men were not able to marry > while > > > in > > > >>>>> military service and could not wait that long. They usually > married > > > >>>>> immediately when they were released. > > > >>>>> As far as children born to a family goes, my own grandmother on > my > > > >>>>> mother's side gave birth to 13 children in the late 1800, of > which 7 > > > >> lived > > > >>>>> through their childhood diseases which killed many of their > siblings. > > > >> The > > > >>>>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, Diphteria, whooping cough, > > > "Pocken" > > > >>>>> which is smallpox and disentery. > > > >>>>> They solely relied on herbal medicines then. > > > >>>>> Aida > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary Read < > maryutschig@yahoo.com> > > > >> wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>> I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife > > > >> (polygamy) > > > >>>> in > > > >>>>>> the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines? (I > understand > > > >> in > > > >>>>>> Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of > men, > > > so > > > >>>> many > > > >>>>>> having been killed in wars.) > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as > being > > > >> Anna > > > >>>>>> Catharina. I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina > > > >>>> Pichl/B?chl), > > > >>>>>> but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate > > > >>>> marriages. > > > >>>>>> Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who > born > > > him > > > >>>> many > > > >>>>>> children. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina > before > > > >> the > > > >>>>>> 1728 marriage I found. This is important to me because my 3rd > great > > > >>>>>> grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed > like > > > >> in > > > >>>>>> the later records. No haus numbers, no names of parents. Two > > > >> children > > > >>>>>> born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart. The rest of > the > > > >>>> children > > > >>>>>> are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna > Catharina. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first > Anna > > > >>>>>> Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned > above > > > who > > > >>>> were > > > >>>>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the > other > > > in > > > >>>> 1739 > > > >>>>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between). So my > theory > > > >> on > > > >>>> the > > > >>>>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold up. Too many children born in > between > > > >>>> 1729 > > > >>>>>> and 1739. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I hope this makes > sense. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Mary > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > > >>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >>>>>> ------------------------------- > > > >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > >>>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > >>>> without > > > >>>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >>>>> ------------------------------- > > > >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > >> without > > > >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >>>> ------------------------------- > > > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > >> without > > > >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >>>> > > > >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >>> ------------------------------- > > > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >> ------------------------------- > > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >> > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscr > > > > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > To contact the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN list administrator, send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > > To post a message to the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN mailing list, send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com. > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the > body of the > > email with no additional text. > > > > > > End of GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 38 > > ********************************************** > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >