My great grandfather Laurenz was born illegitemate to Frantisek and Eva in 1844 in southwest Bohemia, where Frantisek was a millworker. Frantisek, Eva and little Laurenz went back to Frantisek's home village in southeast Bohemia soon after and Frantisek and Eva got married 14 years later, which made Laurenz legitimate. Frantisek was never a soldier as far as I know. The whole family were factory workers or day laborers and probably could not afford to marry. --- rpaulgb@yahoo.com wrote: From: Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's in Bohemia? Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 22:37:05 -0600 Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not marry until the man could prove that he was finically able to support a family? I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he community did not want to support a family that was not able to provide for itself On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian Army (and please don't forget that > that this Army existed for 400 years) all soldiers of lower ranks were > not allowed to marry while in service. It was different in officers ranks, > but then the father of the bride had to pay a dowry of 20,000 Kronen as > "Kaution" (security). I do not know the exact legal ramification on that, > so you must read up on it. I just know the story from our family, where my > aunt's arguments with her father were fierce, because she desired to > receive that money from him for her marriage. Since my grandfather had 6 > daughters, he most certainly could not single out one of them with this > privilege. > And yes, these entries you found in the registers are indeed these > "early born" children who were declared legitimate as soon as the father > came back from his tour of duty. The Church was understanding in this, > because the couple was not able to marry while the groom was serving in the > Military. > Aida > > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: > >> Aide, >> >> Wondering about something you wrote below about Military Service, Marriage >> and Births. >> >> Sometimes I notice in church registers that a woman gives birth to a child >> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later date, it appears a Father's name >> was added and illigitamet is crossed out and ligitamete added. >> >> Would this be likely one of those times when the Father was away with the >> military? Would adding a Fathers name in such a situation happen fairly >> regularly? >> >> Speaking of Military Service. In peace time ( was there any? ), what was >> the requirement of males to military service? Did they ALL have to service >> or was it voluntary? >> >> Thanks again, >> >> Elaine in Maine >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM >>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's >> in Bohemia? >>> >>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood that our very Catholic families who >> were >>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl were polygamous. What you are >>> encountering is this. The Utschig were a HUGE family. Every family had >>> many children, They became each others sponsors at birth and so the same >>> first names come up again and again. If the births were only 3 or 7 >> months >>> apart, then you must look into the names of the father and mother, and >> even >>> there you may encounter the same names. So, since no house nunbers are >>> given, you have to diagram your family members with their birth dates. >>> Eventually you will find out into which families they could they fit it. >>> This is just your guideline. >>> I had a similar situation where three brothers had children and >>> all of them used the same first names over and over again. And then, the >>> children of the NEXT generation were given the exactly same names by their >>> related sponsors, which of course were family member, brothers sisters, >>> cousins, and still - to this day - that whole clan is somewhat of a >> puzzle >>> to what family they belong; but it was not unusual that a woman gave >> birth >>> to 19 children.... one every year until menopause.. That does not mean >> that >>> they all survived, but they are, or course, listed as births in the >> church >>> register. So go then to the death register and see who was listed there >>> and there they also give the names of the parents. It will help you to >>> sort out the families. If you compare birth register to death register >> you >>> will find more clarity. >>> Go back as far as you can and write down the names of the couples >>> (meaning families of siblings). Then, write down the names of their >>> children and next to it the birth date and if you find a death entry as >>> well...... >>> And then see, how they fit. >>> And this is the way you can sort it out. >>> Good luck. >>> Birth of 18 children is absolutely possible, we have found that many >> times >>> and from the same couple. Thre are also multiple marriages, but forget >>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were far to religious. Pre marital birth >> of >>> children are possible, because the men were not able to marry while in >>> military service and could not wait that long. They usually married >>> immediately when they were released. >>> As far as children born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my >>> mother's side gave birth to 13 children in the late 1800, of which 7 lived >>> through their childhood diseases which killed many of their siblings. The >>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, Diphteria, whooping cough, "Pocken" >>> which is smallpox and disentery. >>> They solely relied on herbal medicines then. >>> Aida >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife (polygamy) >> in >>>> the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines? (I understand in >>>> Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of men, so >> many >>>> having been killed in wars.) >>>> >>>> I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as being Anna >>>> Catharina. I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina >> Pichl/Büchl), >>>> but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate >> marriages. >>>> Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who born him >> many >>>> children. >>>> >>>> There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina before the >>>> 1728 marriage I found. This is important to me because my 3rd great >>>> grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. >>>> >>>> These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed like in >>>> the later records. No haus numbers, no names of parents. Two children >>>> born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart. The rest of the >> children >>>> are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna Catharina. >>>> >>>> I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first Anna >>>> Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned above who >> were >>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the other in >> 1739 >>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between). So my theory on >> the >>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold up. Too many children born in between >> 1729 >>>> and 1739. >>>> >>>> Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I hope this makes sense. >>>> >>>> Mary >>>> >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _____________________________________________________________ A CEOExpressSelect Member http://www.ceoexpress.com