Aida's comment about Maritime culture and Continental culture connects for me. I've been reading a book titled: Gold and Spices; the rise of commerce in the Middle Ages by Jean Favier. Published 1998. This book is part of my quest to become more aware of life during the Middle Ages. I'm only on page 80 and have been quite impressed by the developments over short spans of time. The book itself concentrates on Trade, development of money systems, (discussion on credit development is quite facinating), trade routes - both land and sea. Had not considered how these NEW developments would effect cultural norms. But naturally they would!!!! Speaking of trade, initially trade routes were land based or river based. This limited size of cargo able to be transported. But once sea routes started to over take land/river based routes, the scale of Trade increased dramatically. There was also a shift between the counties that prospered from this trade and those that did not. When land and river routes were the norm, the Continent prospered by Trade Routes coming though their areas. (Some collected "taxes" from each and every vessel that passed by! ) That meant "goods" might be taxes by each and every organized governmental juristiction the "goods" passed though. Could get quite expensive!!!!! Actually, these "taxes" lead some "progressive thinkers" to consider alternative routes for trade. Hence, these traders looked to the sea. Then they only paid taxes at Ports of Call. This created a major shift in commerce and wealth. I would imagine it also created a major shift in cultural norms! Facinating!!! :) Check the book out on Amazon IF the above interests you. Has anyone come across a book that deals with the social/cultural norms in the Middle Ages specific to our area of interest? Elaine -----Original Message----- >From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >Sent: Feb 14, 2012 11:50 AM >To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's in Bohemia? > >Bob, you cannot apply Swedish family life to that of the continent. As I >have stated before, the maritime countries had a very different culture >than the landlocked European Interior. >Also the Northern countries were mostly Protestant and with it quite a >different culture developed versus the stout Catholic or Greek Orthodox >church influence on the mainland which was less flexible. > Aida > >On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 8:33 AM, Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> Aida, Here is a "for instance" from my Swedish family. My gr-grandfather >> Jon Paulson came from a family of itinerant farm laborers who moved >> from place to place to find work. The boys were "farmed out" at a very >> early age to work. They lived in a Backstugen which nothing was more than >> a dugout in the side of a hill. >> Anyway, Jon meet Anna Katrina, then a widow, he was 20 she was 31. Anna >> gave birth to a son and continued to live with her parents. >> Jon traveled to a neighboring parish some 50 miles away to find work. He >> fathered another child four years later and then Jon and Anna Katrina were >> married and they lived >> together near where Jon was working. They had two more children before the >> family emigrated in 1893. Jon had preceded the family, coming to America >> by four years where he >> worked as a surveyour on the Great Northern RR. >> Bob >> On Feb 14, 2012, at 12:48 AM, Aida Kraus wrote: >> >> > Bob, I have never heard of this, so I really cannot say. Most of the >> > Egerland families supported one another when the chips were down. But >> it >> > could have been different during industrial development areas in the late >> > 19th century. I understood that the question was posed for ancestors in >> > the 18th century when agricultural life was still very dominant. Having >> a >> > concubine would have been possible only for someone who could afford >> > "keeping a woman", like the nobility, statesmen, people who had jobs away >> > from their homebase. And that does not include farmers. Bohemia was >> > nothing like "England" who traded worldwide being an island. Bohemia >> was a >> > landlocked area where most of the families were stout Catholics and the >> > financial status among them was not as crass between rich and poor as it >> > was in England for many centuries. The poor on the continent were not >> > quite as destitute as in Britain, because the Monarchy made the Nobility >> > responsible for the welfare of the people in their regions. There was a >> > poor house in every village to care for widows with families or infirm >> > people; and the nobility would either provide financial help or offer >> > employment in the country villages and the same happened in the cities, >> > where poor people were supported by the Burghers and often even the >> > guilds. Do not mix up the stories you hear from Ireland, England, or >> any >> > other places, because it was a very regulated life in the Austrian >> > Hungarian Monarchy. Even new settlers to a new area were provided with a >> > newly built farm house and acreage, they never had to live in sod houses >> or >> > fend for themselves. If there was a lack of some kind due to tragedy in >> a >> > family, then the churches would step in to provide the necessities on a >> > community caring level. Our people were not as kind to traveling folks, >> > but natives in villages and cities were taken care of by their relatives, >> > neighbors, poor houses, and church alms. >> > However, it is realistic enough that it would not preclude that some >> > babies were born on the "other side of the blanket". Children, in >> general, >> > were needed and very welcome. The larger the family, the stronger the >> > entire family, because they had "enough hands" to work. Children made >> a >> > family "wealthy" because they started to contribute to the farm income >> very >> > early and were taught raising small animals and gathering of wild >> > growing food in nature (mushrooms, nettles, rosehips, wild fruit, roots >> as >> > well as vegetables and fruit from their gardens) which was the basis for >> > their daily meals. The children took care of this from 6 - 14 years of >> > age, and then they generally left the family thereafter when they >> > apprenticed for a job. Marriages for men at age 17 and women 16 were >> quite >> > common, because in "taking over the family farm" many young men could >> avoid >> > military service. >> > Aida >> > >> > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> >> wrote: >> > >> >> Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not marry until the man >> could >> >> prove that he was finically able to support a family? >> >> I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he community did not >> want >> >> to support a family that was not able to provide for itself >> >> >> >> On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: >> >> >> >>> Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian Army (and please don't forget >> >> that >> >>> that this Army existed for 400 years) all soldiers of lower ranks were >> >>> not allowed to marry while in service. It was different in officers >> >> ranks, >> >>> but then the father of the bride had to pay a dowry of 20,000 Kronen as >> >>> "Kaution" (security). I do not know the exact legal ramification on >> >> that, >> >>> so you must read up on it. I just know the story from our family, >> where >> >> my >> >>> aunt's arguments with her father were fierce, because she desired to >> >>> receive that money from him for her marriage. Since my grandfather >> had 6 >> >>> daughters, he most certainly could not single out one of them with this >> >>> privilege. >> >>> And yes, these entries you found in the registers are indeed these >> >>> "early born" children who were declared legitimate as soon as the >> father >> >>> came back from his tour of duty. The Church was understanding in >> this, >> >>> because the couple was not able to marry while the groom was serving in >> >> the >> >>> Military. >> >>> Aida >> >>> >> >>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Aide, >> >>>> >> >>>> Wondering about something you wrote below about Military Service, >> >> Marriage >> >>>> and Births. >> >>>> >> >>>> Sometimes I notice in church registers that a woman gives birth to a >> >> child >> >>>> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later date, it appears a Father's >> name >> >>>> was added and illigitamet is crossed out and ligitamete added. >> >>>> >> >>>> Would this be likely one of those times when the Father was away with >> >> the >> >>>> military? Would adding a Fathers name in such a situation happen >> fairly >> >>>> regularly? >> >>>> >> >>>> Speaking of Military Service. In peace time ( was there any? ), what >> was >> >>>> the requirement of males to military service? Did they ALL have to >> >> service >> >>>> or was it voluntary? >> >>>> >> >>>> Thanks again, >> >>>> >> >>>> Elaine in Maine >> >>>> >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >> >>>>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM >> >>>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in >> >> 1700's >> >>>> in Bohemia? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood that our very Catholic families >> who >> >>>> were >> >>>>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl were polygamous. What you are >> >>>>> encountering is this. The Utschig were a HUGE family. Every family >> >> had >> >>>>> many children, They became each others sponsors at birth and so the >> >> same >> >>>>> first names come up again and again. If the births were only 3 or 7 >> >>>> months >> >>>>> apart, then you must look into the names of the father and mother, >> and >> >>>> even >> >>>>> there you may encounter the same names. So, since no house nunbers >> are >> >>>>> given, you have to diagram your family members with their birth >> dates. >> >>>>> Eventually you will find out into which families they could they fit >> >> it. >> >>>>> This is just your guideline. >> >>>>> I had a similar situation where three brothers had children and >> >>>>> all of them used the same first names over and over again. And >> then, >> >> the >> >>>>> children of the NEXT generation were given the exactly same names by >> >> their >> >>>>> related sponsors, which of course were family member, brothers >> sisters, >> >>>>> cousins, and still - to this day - that whole clan is somewhat of a >> >>>> puzzle >> >>>>> to what family they belong; but it was not unusual that a woman gave >> >>>> birth >> >>>>> to 19 children.... one every year until menopause.. That does not >> mean >> >>>> that >> >>>>> they all survived, but they are, or course, listed as births in the >> >>>> church >> >>>>> register. So go then to the death register and see who was listed >> >> there >> >>>>> and there they also give the names of the parents. It will help you >> to >> >>>>> sort out the families. If you compare birth register to death >> register >> >>>> you >> >>>>> will find more clarity. >> >>>>> Go back as far as you can and write down the names of the >> >> couples >> >>>>> (meaning families of siblings). Then, write down the names of their >> >>>>> children and next to it the birth date and if you find a death entry >> as >> >>>>> well...... >> >>>>> And then see, how they fit. >> >>>>> And this is the way you can sort it out. >> >>>>> Good luck. >> >>>>> Birth of 18 children is absolutely possible, we have found that many >> >>>> times >> >>>>> and from the same couple. Thre are also multiple marriages, but >> forget >> >>>>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were far to religious. Pre marital >> >> birth >> >>>> of >> >>>>> children are possible, because the men were not able to marry while >> in >> >>>>> military service and could not wait that long. They usually married >> >>>>> immediately when they were released. >> >>>>> As far as children born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my >> >>>>> mother's side gave birth to 13 children in the late 1800, of which 7 >> >> lived >> >>>>> through their childhood diseases which killed many of their siblings. >> >> The >> >>>>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, Diphteria, whooping cough, >> "Pocken" >> >>>>> which is smallpox and disentery. >> >>>>> They solely relied on herbal medicines then. >> >>>>> Aida >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> >> >> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife >> >> (polygamy) >> >>>> in >> >>>>>> the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines? (I understand >> >> in >> >>>>>> Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of men, >> so >> >>>> many >> >>>>>> having been killed in wars.) >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as being >> >> Anna >> >>>>>> Catharina. I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina >> >>>> Pichl/Büchl), >> >>>>>> but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate >> >>>> marriages. >> >>>>>> Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who born >> him >> >>>> many >> >>>>>> children. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina before >> >> the >> >>>>>> 1728 marriage I found. This is important to me because my 3rd great >> >>>>>> grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed like >> >> in >> >>>>>> the later records. No haus numbers, no names of parents. Two >> >> children >> >>>>>> born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart. The rest of the >> >>>> children >> >>>>>> are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna Catharina. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first Anna >> >>>>>> Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned above >> who >> >>>> were >> >>>>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the other >> in >> >>>> 1739 >> >>>>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between). So my theory >> >> on >> >>>> the >> >>>>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold up. Too many children born in between >> >>>> 1729 >> >>>>>> and 1739. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I hope this makes sense. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Mary >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> >>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >>>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> >>>> without >> >>>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> >>>>> ------------------------------- >> >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> >> without >> >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> >>>> ------------------------------- >> >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> >> without >> >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >>>> >> >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> >>> ------------------------------- >> >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscr >> >> >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message