Do not mix up the stories you hear about England or Ireland, or even Scandinavian places, because they were in the vicinity of a seashore. This is an entirely different culture and provides a steady mix of people. Bohemia is landlocked, the people who lived there lived in the same places for centuries and everybody knew everybody else's business for several generations (and besides the whole village was related by intermarriage). Everybody's affair was widely discussed among the villagers. This in itself had a rather self-controlling effect on all inhabitants. And that was also often the cause for emigration, some had just about enough of interferences. But let me tell you that villagers were very protective of their own people and sometimes rather cruel to outsiders or even villagers from the next village. Sometimes when a young swain from another village looked for a bride in a neighboring village, he was often thoroughly thrashed by the young men of the village where that pretty girl lived. To be able to steal the (village's Maibaum) may-tree and plant it in the garden of your sweetheart in another village, that was just about the greatest insult to the young men of a village but a great honor to the lady in question. There were "wars" fought in Springtime when the juices were flowing and there are a lot of funny stories as part of Egerland's legends. It simply was a very clannish group protecting their own. And because of that, those that deserved help received it. Read the prior discussions on that. Aida On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:38 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: > Doug, Robert and Joseph bring up interesting points. Things I was not at > all familar with. > > Ya had to have enough money to marry? Like how much? Was this to pay the > church or to establish a home or for someother purpose? > > Did this mean the household of the new unwed Mother had to financially > support the new Mom and child? > > If so, Fathers must have cringed every time a female baby was born because > each daughter could end up costing him a great deal. > > Culturally, things must have been so different from place to place. Like > Doug, I was thinking about England and their cruelity with designations of > bastard and the like. > > Aida could you and others in the know, give us all a tutorial on the > broader subjects referenced in this discussion ? > > Thanks again, in advance, > > Elaine > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Joseph Lischka <jlischka@ceoexpress.com> > >Sent: Feb 14, 2012 12:02 AM > >To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's > in Bohemia? > > > >My great grandfather Laurenz was born illegitemate to Frantisek and Eva > in 1844 in southwest Bohemia, where Frantisek was a millworker. Frantisek, > Eva and little Laurenz went back to Frantisek's home village in southeast > Bohemia soon after and Frantisek and Eva got married 14 years later, which > made Laurenz legitimate. Frantisek was never a soldier as far as I know. > The whole family were factory workers or day laborers and probably could > not afford to marry. > > > >--- rpaulgb@yahoo.com wrote: > > > >From: Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> > >To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's > in Bohemia? > >Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 22:37:05 -0600 > > > >Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not marry until the man could > prove that he was finically able to support a family? > >I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he community did not > want to support a family that was not able to provide for itself > > > >On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > > >> Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian Army (and please don't forget > that > >> that this Army existed for 400 years) all soldiers of lower ranks were > >> not allowed to marry while in service. It was different in officers > ranks, > >> but then the father of the bride had to pay a dowry of 20,000 Kronen as > >> "Kaution" (security). I do not know the exact legal ramification on > that, > >> so you must read up on it. I just know the story from our family, > where my > >> aunt's arguments with her father were fierce, because she desired to > >> receive that money from him for her marriage. Since my grandfather had > 6 > >> daughters, he most certainly could not single out one of them with this > >> privilege. > >> And yes, these entries you found in the registers are indeed these > >> "early born" children who were declared legitimate as soon as the father > >> came back from his tour of duty. The Church was understanding in this, > >> because the couple was not able to marry while the groom was serving in > the > >> Military. > >> Aida > >> > >> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: > >> > >>> Aide, > >>> > >>> Wondering about something you wrote below about Military Service, > Marriage > >>> and Births. > >>> > >>> Sometimes I notice in church registers that a woman gives birth to a > child > >>> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later date, it appears a Father's > name > >>> was added and illigitamet is crossed out and ligitamete added. > >>> > >>> Would this be likely one of those times when the Father was away with > the > >>> military? Would adding a Fathers name in such a situation happen > fairly > >>> regularly? > >>> > >>> Speaking of Military Service. In peace time ( was there any? ), what > was > >>> the requirement of males to military service? Did they ALL have to > service > >>> or was it voluntary? > >>> > >>> Thanks again, > >>> > >>> Elaine in Maine > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > >>>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM > >>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in > 1700's > >>> in Bohemia? > >>>> > >>>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood that our very Catholic families who > >>> were > >>>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl were polygamous. What you are > >>>> encountering is this. The Utschig were a HUGE family. Every family > had > >>>> many children, They became each others sponsors at birth and so the > same > >>>> first names come up again and again. If the births were only 3 or 7 > >>> months > >>>> apart, then you must look into the names of the father and mother, and > >>> even > >>>> there you may encounter the same names. So, since no house nunbers > are > >>>> given, you have to diagram your family members with their birth dates. > >>>> Eventually you will find out into which families they could they fit > it. > >>>> This is just your guideline. > >>>> I had a similar situation where three brothers had children and > >>>> all of them used the same first names over and over again. And > then, the > >>>> children of the NEXT generation were given the exactly same names by > their > >>>> related sponsors, which of course were family member, brothers > sisters, > >>>> cousins, and still - to this day - that whole clan is somewhat of a > >>> puzzle > >>>> to what family they belong; but it was not unusual that a woman gave > >>> birth > >>>> to 19 children.... one every year until menopause.. That does not mean > >>> that > >>>> they all survived, but they are, or course, listed as births in the > >>> church > >>>> register. So go then to the death register and see who was listed > there > >>>> and there they also give the names of the parents. It will help you > to > >>>> sort out the families. If you compare birth register to death > register > >>> you > >>>> will find more clarity. > >>>> Go back as far as you can and write down the names of the > couples > >>>> (meaning families of siblings). Then, write down the names of their > >>>> children and next to it the birth date and if you find a death entry > as > >>>> well...... > >>>> And then see, how they fit. > >>>> And this is the way you can sort it out. > >>>> Good luck. > >>>> Birth of 18 children is absolutely possible, we have found that many > >>> times > >>>> and from the same couple. Thre are also multiple marriages, but forget > >>>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were far to religious. Pre marital > birth > >>> of > >>>> children are possible, because the men were not able to marry while in > >>>> military service and could not wait that long. They usually married > >>>> immediately when they were released. > >>>> As far as children born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my > >>>> mother's side gave birth to 13 children in the late 1800, of which 7 > lived > >>>> through their childhood diseases which killed many of their siblings. > The > >>>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, Diphteria, whooping cough, "Pocken" > >>>> which is smallpox and disentery. > >>>> They solely relied on herbal medicines then. > >>>> Aida > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife > (polygamy) > >>> in > >>>>> the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines? (I understand > in > >>>>> Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of men, so > >>> many > >>>>> having been killed in wars.) > >>>>> > >>>>> I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as being > Anna > >>>>> Catharina. I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina > >>> Pichl/Büchl), > >>>>> but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate > >>> marriages. > >>>>> Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who born him > >>> many > >>>>> children. > >>>>> > >>>>> There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina before > the > >>>>> 1728 marriage I found. This is important to me because my 3rd great > >>>>> grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. > >>>>> > >>>>> These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed like > in > >>>>> the later records. No haus numbers, no names of parents. Two > children > >>>>> born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart. The rest of the > >>> children > >>>>> are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna Catharina. > >>>>> > >>>>> I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first Anna > >>>>> Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned above > who > >>> were > >>>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the other in > >>> 1739 > >>>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between). So my theory > on > >>> the > >>>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold up. Too many children born in between > >>> 1729 > >>>>> and 1739. > >>>>> > >>>>> Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I hope this makes sense. > >>>>> > >>>>> Mary > >>>>> > >>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >>> without > >>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>>> > >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>> > >>> > >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>> > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________________ > >A CEOExpressSelect Member > >http://www.ceoexpress.com > > > >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks for your advise, Aida. There were very few deaths of children in this large family which I thought unusual. Out of the really 18 children, I found only 3 deaths, then the death of Anton in 1757 and an Anna Catharina in 1765. I found some marriages of a few of the children, so I will try and find births of their children, which by the later dates should reveal more information about parents and grandparents. Elaine asked a question about the military--whether it was voluntary or required. Can anyone answer that? If required, how old would they have had to be to be required to go into the military; and was there a length of time they had to serve? Thanks for everyone's input. Mary --- On Mon, 2/13/12, Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> wrote: > From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Marriage - Military Service and illegitamate births > To: polloe@earthlink.net, german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > Date: Monday, February 13, 2012, 11:14 PM > Do not mix up the stories you hear > about England or Ireland, or even > Scandinavian places,  because they were in the vicinity > of a seashore. This > is an entirely different culture and provides a steady mix > of people. > Bohemia is landlocked, the people who lived there lived in > the same places > for centuries and everybody knew everybody else's business > for several > generations (and besides the whole village was related by > intermarriage). > Everybody's affair was widely discussed among the > villagers.  This in > itself had a rather self-controlling effect on all > inhabitants.  And that > was also often the cause for emigration, some had just about > enough of > interferences. But let me tell you that villagers were very > protective of > their own people and sometimes rather cruel to outsiders or > even villagers > from the next village. Sometimes when a young swain from > another village > looked for a bride in a neighboring village, he was often > thoroughly > thrashed by the young men of the village where that pretty > girl lived.  To > be able to steal the (village's Maibaum) may-tree and plant > it in the > garden of your sweetheart in another village, that was just > about the > greatest insult to the young men of a village but a great > honor to the lady > in question.  There were "wars" fought in Springtime > when the juices were > flowing and there are a lot of funny stories as part of > Egerland's legends. > It simply was a very clannish group protecting their > own.  And because of > that, those that deserved help received it. >     Read the prior discussions on that. > Aida > > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:38 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> > wrote: > > > Doug, Robert and Joseph bring up interesting points. > Things I was not at > > all familar with. > > > > Ya had to have enough money to marry? Like how much? > Was this to pay the > > church or to establish a home or for someother > purpose? > > > > Did this mean the household of the new unwed Mother had > to financially > > support the new Mom and child? > > > > If so, Fathers must have cringed every time a female > baby was born because > > each daughter could end up costing him a great deal. > > > > Culturally, things must have been so different from > place to place. Like > > Doug, I was thinking about England and their cruelity > with designations of > > bastard and the like. > > > > Aida could you and others in the know, give us all a > tutorial on the > > broader subjects referenced in this discussion ? > > > > Thanks again, in advance, > > > > Elaine > > > > -----Original Message----- > > >From: Joseph Lischka <jlischka@ceoexpress.com> > > >Sent: Feb 14, 2012 12:02 AM > > >To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages > or concubines in 1700's > >      in      Bohemia? > > > > > >My great grandfather Laurenz was born illegitemate > to Frantisek and Eva > > in 1844 in southwest Bohemia, where Frantisek was a > millworker. Frantisek, > > Eva and little Laurenz went back to Frantisek's home > village in southeast > > Bohemia soon after and Frantisek and Eva got married 14 > years later, which > > made Laurenz legitimate. Frantisek was never a soldier > as far as I know. > > The whole family were factory workers or day laborers > and probably could > > not afford to marry. > > > > > >--- rpaulgb@yahoo.com > wrote: > > > > > >From: Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> > > >To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages > or concubines in 1700's > > in   Bohemia? > > >Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 22:37:05 -0600 > > > > > >Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not > marry until the  man could > > prove that he was finically able to support a family? > > >I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he > community did not > > want to support a family that was not able to provide > for itself > > > > > >On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > > > > >> Yes, exactly!  In the Austrian Hungarian > Army (and please don't forget > > that > > >> that this Army existed for 400 years)  > all soldiers of lower ranks were > > >> not allowed to marry while in service. It was > different in officers > > ranks, > > >> but then the father of the bride had to pay a > dowry of 20,000 Kronen as > > >> "Kaution" (security).  I do not know the > exact legal ramification on > > that, > > >> so you must read up on it.  I just know > the story from our family, > > where my > > >> aunt's arguments with her  father were > fierce, because she desired to > > >> receive that money from him for her > marriage.  Since my grandfather had > > 6 > > >> daughters, he most certainly could not single > out one of them with this > > >> privilege. > > >>      And yes, these entries you > found in the registers are indeed these > > >> "early born" children who were declared > legitimate as soon as the father > > >> came back from his tour of > duty.   The Church was understanding in > this, > > >> because the couple was not able to marry while > the groom was serving in > > the > > >> Military. > > >>    Aida > > >> > > >> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> > wrote: > > >> > > >>> Aide, > > >>> > > >>> Wondering about something you wrote below > about Military Service, > > Marriage > > >>> and Births. > > >>> > > >>> Sometimes I notice in church registers > that a woman gives birth to a > > child > > >>> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later > date, it appears a Father's > > name > > >>> was added and illigitamet is crossed out > and ligitamete added. > > >>> > > >>> Would this be likely one of those times > when the Father was away with > > the > > >>> military?  Would adding a Fathers > name in such a situation happen > > fairly > > >>> regularly? > > >>> > > >>> Speaking of Military Service. In peace > time ( was there any? ), what > > was > > >>> the requirement of males to military > service?  Did they ALL have to > > service > > >>> or was it voluntary? > > >>> > > >>> Thanks again, > > >>> > > >>> Elaine in Maine > > >>> > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > > >>>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM > > >>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > >>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] > Multiple marriages or concubines in > > 1700's > > >>> in   Bohemia? > > >>>> > > >>>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood > that our very Catholic families who > > >>> were > > >>>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl > were polygamous.  What you are > > >>>> encountering is this.  The > Utschig were a HUGE family.  Every family > > had > > >>>> many children, They became each others > sponsors at birth and so the > > same > > >>>> first names come up again and > again.  If the births were only 3 or 7 > > >>> months > > >>>> apart, then you must look into the > names of the father and mother, and > > >>> even > > >>>> there you may encounter the same > names.  So, since no house nunbers > > are > > >>>> given, you have to diagram your family > members with their birth dates. > > >>>> Eventually you will find out into > which families they could they fit > > it. > > >>>> This is just your guideline. > > >>>>       I had a > similar situation where three brothers had children  > and > > >>>> all of them used the same first names > over and over again.   And > > then, the > > >>>> children of the NEXT generation were > given the exactly same names by > > their > > >>>> related sponsors, which of course were > family member, brothers > > sisters, > > >>>> cousins,  and still - to this day > - that whole clan is somewhat of a > > >>> puzzle > > >>>> to what family they belong;  but > it was not unusual that a woman gave > > >>> birth > > >>>> to 19 children.... one every year > until menopause.. That does not mean > > >>> that > > >>>> they all survived, but they are, or > course,  listed as births in the > > >>> church > > >>>> register.  So go then to the > death register and see who was listed > > there > > >>>> and there they also give the names of > the parents.  It will help you > > to > > >>>> sort out the families.  If you > compare birth register to death > > register > > >>> you > > >>>> will find more clarity. > > >>>>        Go back as > far as you can and write down the names of the > > couples > > >>>> (meaning families of siblings).  > Then, write down the names of their > > >>>> children and next to it the birth date > and if you find a death entry > > as > > >>>> well...... > > >>>> And then see, how they fit. > > >>>> And this is the way you can sort it > out. > > >>>>    Good luck. > > >>>> Birth of  18 children is > absolutely possible, we have found that many > > >>> times > > >>>> and from the same couple. Thre are > also multiple marriages, but forget > > >>>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were > far to religious.  Pre marital > > birth > > >>> of > > >>>> children are possible, because the men > were not able to marry while in > > >>>> military service and could not wait > that long.  They usually married > > >>>> immediately when they were released. > > >>>>   As far as children > born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my > > >>>> mother's side gave birth to 13 > children in the late 1800, of which 7 > > lived > > >>>> through their childhood diseases which > killed many of their siblings. > >  The > > >>>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, > Diphteria, whooping cough, "Pocken" > > >>>> which is  smallpox and > disentery. > > >>>> They solely relied on herbal medicines > then. > > >>>>    Aida > > >>>> > > >>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary > Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> > > wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> I was wondering if there were men > who had more than one wife > > (polygamy) > > >>> in > > >>>>> the early to middle 1700's in > Bohemia, or concubines?  (I understand > > in > > >>>>> Germany there was polygamy at one > time because of the lack of men, so > > >>> many > > >>>>> having been killed in wars.) > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I have 18 children born to an > Anton Utschig, with the wife as being > > Anna > > >>>>> Catharina.  I found one > marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina > > >>> Pichl/Büchl), > > >>>>> but cannot find the other > marriage, if there were two separate > > >>> marriages. > > >>>>> Or he had a woman on the side, > also named Anna Catharina who born him > > >>> many > > >>>>> children. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> There were three children born to > an Anton and Anna Catharina before > > the > > >>>>> 1728 marriage I found.  This > is important to me because my 3rd great > > >>>>> grandfather belonged to one of the > Anton's and Anna Catharina's. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> These early records do not tell > you much--no occupations listed like > > in > > >>>>> the later records.  No haus > numbers, no names of parents.  Two > > children > > >>>>> born 3 months apart, another two, > 7 months apart.  The rest of the > > >>> children > > >>>>> are spaced out so that they could > belong to either Anna Catharina. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I have also looked to see if there > was a death for the first Anna > > >>>>> Catharina but could not find one. > Yet the children mentioned above > > who > > >>> were > > >>>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 > (Aug and November) and the other in > > >>> 1739 > > >>>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of > children in between).  So my theory > > on > > >>> the > > >>>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold > up.  Too many children born in between > > >>> 1729 > > >>>>> and 1739. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Any insight would be greatly > appreciated.  I hope this makes sense. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Mary > > >>>>> > > >>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society > web site > > >>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >>>>> ------------------------------- > > >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, > please send an email to > > >>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >>> without > > >>>>> the quotes in the subject and the > body of the message > > >>>>> > > >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web > site > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >>>> ------------------------------- > > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please > send an email to > > >>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of > the message > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >>> ------------------------------- > > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send > an email to > > >>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of > the message > > >>> > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >> ------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an > email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >------------------------------- > > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email > to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________________ > > >A CEOExpressSelect Member > > >http://www.ceoexpress.com > > > > > >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >------------------------------- > > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email > to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > subject and the body of the message >

Mary, military service was a requirement and young healthy men had to serve. However, a lot of exceptions were made in the process of "mustering" - conscription. For instance, when a family settled in a new area where agricultural population was required within the Empire, there was no military service for the new settlers, and they were also given ten years of tax exemption. Actually, the conscription was very selective and not everyone passed through pretty stiff medical exams. Failing an eye exam alone would make the person "untauglich" = unfit to serve. Damages to limbs or birth defects were also unacceptable to service, and they would not pass conscription if they had a lung or skin diseases. Actually, most young men were eager to serve because they were always transferred to another area in the Monarchy and this afforded them travel and seeing a bit of the "world". It was considered a set back when they did not measure up to the conscription requirements. But in other circumstances, for instance, when a young man married early to take over the family's farm and avoided service, that was usually based on a necessity to take care of the family, which included older family members. The eldest son was often "passed over" for service, or another brother stood in for the son best suited to run the farm. I heard from my family that the young men were taking their duties quite seriously and "shirking" was not looked upon very favorably. The Bohemians were Royalists and true to the crown, and the House of Habsburg recognized the "Egerlander Regiment" as one of their best. Exiled Emperor Karl of Habsburg (recently deceased at a ripe old age) was always attending the meetings of the German Bohemians expellees in Germany. Aida On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 11:30 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> wrote: > Thanks for your advise, Aida. There were very few deaths of children in > this large family which I thought unusual. Out of the really 18 children, > I found only 3 deaths, then the death of Anton in 1757 and an Anna > Catharina in 1765. I found some marriages of a few of the children, so I > will try and find births of their children, which by the later dates should > reveal more information about parents and grandparents. > > Elaine asked a question about the military--whether it was voluntary or > required. Can anyone answer that? If required, how old would they have > had to be to be required to go into the military; and was there a length of > time they had to serve? > > Thanks for everyone's input. > > Mary > > --- On Mon, 2/13/12, Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> wrote: > > > From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Marriage - Military Service and > illegitamate births > > To: polloe@earthlink.net, german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > Date: Monday, February 13, 2012, 11:14 PM > > Do not mix up the stories you hear > > about England or Ireland, or even > > Scandinavian places, because they were in the vicinity > > of a seashore. This > > is an entirely different culture and provides a steady mix > > of people. > > Bohemia is landlocked, the people who lived there lived in > > the same places > > for centuries and everybody knew everybody else's business > > for several > > generations (and besides the whole village was related by > > intermarriage). > > Everybody's affair was widely discussed among the > > villagers. This in > > itself had a rather self-controlling effect on all > > inhabitants. And that > > was also often the cause for emigration, some had just about > > enough of > > interferences. But let me tell you that villagers were very > > protective of > > their own people and sometimes rather cruel to outsiders or > > even villagers > > from the next village. Sometimes when a young swain from > > another village > > looked for a bride in a neighboring village, he was often > > thoroughly > > thrashed by the young men of the village where that pretty > > girl lived. To > > be able to steal the (village's Maibaum) may-tree and plant > > it in the > > garden of your sweetheart in another village, that was just > > about the > > greatest insult to the young men of a village but a great > > honor to the lady > > in question. There were "wars" fought in Springtime > > when the juices were > > flowing and there are a lot of funny stories as part of > > Egerland's legends. > > It simply was a very clannish group protecting their > > own. And because of > > that, those that deserved help received it. > > Read the prior discussions on that. > > Aida > > > > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:38 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> > > wrote: > > > > > Doug, Robert and Joseph bring up interesting points. > > Things I was not at > > > all familar with. > > > > > > Ya had to have enough money to marry? Like how much? > > Was this to pay the > > > church or to establish a home or for someother > > purpose? > > > > > > Did this mean the household of the new unwed Mother had > > to financially > > > support the new Mom and child? > > > > > > If so, Fathers must have cringed every time a female > > baby was born because > > > each daughter could end up costing him a great deal. > > > > > > Culturally, things must have been so different from > > place to place. Like > > > Doug, I was thinking about England and their cruelity > > with designations of > > > bastard and the like. > > > > > > Aida could you and others in the know, give us all a > > tutorial on the > > > broader subjects referenced in this discussion ? > > > > > > Thanks again, in advance, > > > > > > Elaine > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > >From: Joseph Lischka <jlischka@ceoexpress.com> > > > >Sent: Feb 14, 2012 12:02 AM > > > >To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > > >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages > > or concubines in 1700's > > > in Bohemia? > > > > > > > >My great grandfather Laurenz was born illegitemate > > to Frantisek and Eva > > > in 1844 in southwest Bohemia, where Frantisek was a > > millworker. Frantisek, > > > Eva and little Laurenz went back to Frantisek's home > > village in southeast > > > Bohemia soon after and Frantisek and Eva got married 14 > > years later, which > > > made Laurenz legitimate. Frantisek was never a soldier > > as far as I know. > > > The whole family were factory workers or day laborers > > and probably could > > > not afford to marry. > > > > > > > >--- rpaulgb@yahoo.com > > wrote: > > > > > > > >From: Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> > > > >To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > > >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages > > or concubines in 1700's > > > in Bohemia? > > > >Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 22:37:05 -0600 > > > > > > > >Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not > > marry until the man could > > > prove that he was finically able to support a family? > > > >I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he > > community did not > > > want to support a family that was not able to provide > > for itself > > > > > > > >On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > > > > > > >> Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian > > Army (and please don't forget > > > that > > > >> that this Army existed for 400 years) > > all soldiers of lower ranks were > > > >> not allowed to marry while in service. It was > > different in officers > > > ranks, > > > >> but then the father of the bride had to pay a > > dowry of 20,000 Kronen as > > > >> "Kaution" (security). I do not know the > > exact legal ramification on > > > that, > > > >> so you must read up on it. I just know > > the story from our family, > > > where my > > > >> aunt's arguments with her father were > > fierce, because she desired to > > > >> receive that money from him for her > > marriage. Since my grandfather had > > > 6 > > > >> daughters, he most certainly could not single > > out one of them with this > > > >> privilege. > > > >> And yes, these entries you > > found in the registers are indeed these > > > >> "early born" children who were declared > > legitimate as soon as the father > > > >> came back from his tour of > > duty. The Church was understanding in > > this, > > > >> because the couple was not able to marry while > > the groom was serving in > > > the > > > >> Military. > > > >> Aida > > > >> > > > >> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> Aide, > > > >>> > > > >>> Wondering about something you wrote below > > about Military Service, > > > Marriage > > > >>> and Births. > > > >>> > > > >>> Sometimes I notice in church registers > > that a woman gives birth to a > > > child > > > >>> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later > > date, it appears a Father's > > > name > > > >>> was added and illigitamet is crossed out > > and ligitamete added. > > > >>> > > > >>> Would this be likely one of those times > > when the Father was away with > > > the > > > >>> military? Would adding a Fathers > > name in such a situation happen > > > fairly > > > >>> regularly? > > > >>> > > > >>> Speaking of Military Service. In peace > > time ( was there any? ), what > > > was > > > >>> the requirement of males to military > > service? Did they ALL have to > > > service > > > >>> or was it voluntary? > > > >>> > > > >>> Thanks again, > > > >>> > > > >>> Elaine in Maine > > > >>> > > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > > >>>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > > > >>>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM > > > >>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > > >>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] > > Multiple marriages or concubines in > > > 1700's > > > >>> in Bohemia? > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood > > that our very Catholic families who > > > >>> were > > > >>>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl > > were polygamous. What you are > > > >>>> encountering is this. The > > Utschig were a HUGE family. Every family > > > had > > > >>>> many children, They became each others > > sponsors at birth and so the > > > same > > > >>>> first names come up again and > > again. If the births were only 3 or 7 > > > >>> months > > > >>>> apart, then you must look into the > > names of the father and mother, and > > > >>> even > > > >>>> there you may encounter the same > > names. So, since no house nunbers > > > are > > > >>>> given, you have to diagram your family > > members with their birth dates. > > > >>>> Eventually you will find out into > > which families they could they fit > > > it. > > > >>>> This is just your guideline. > > > >>>> I had a > > similar situation where three brothers had children > > and > > > >>>> all of them used the same first names > > over and over again. And > > > then, the > > > >>>> children of the NEXT generation were > > given the exactly same names by > > > their > > > >>>> related sponsors, which of course were > > family member, brothers > > > sisters, > > > >>>> cousins, and still - to this day > > - that whole clan is somewhat of a > > > >>> puzzle > > > >>>> to what family they belong; but > > it was not unusual that a woman gave > > > >>> birth > > > >>>> to 19 children.... one every year > > until menopause.. That does not mean > > > >>> that > > > >>>> they all survived, but they are, or > > course, listed as births in the > > > >>> church > > > >>>> register. So go then to the > > death register and see who was listed > > > there > > > >>>> and there they also give the names of > > the parents. It will help you > > > to > > > >>>> sort out the families. If you > > compare birth register to death > > > register > > > >>> you > > > >>>> will find more clarity. > > > >>>> Go back as > > far as you can and write down the names of the > > > couples > > > >>>> (meaning families of siblings). > > Then, write down the names of their > > > >>>> children and next to it the birth date > > and if you find a death entry > > > as > > > >>>> well...... > > > >>>> And then see, how they fit. > > > >>>> And this is the way you can sort it > > out. > > > >>>> Good luck. > > > >>>> Birth of 18 children is > > absolutely possible, we have found that many > > > >>> times > > > >>>> and from the same couple. Thre are > > also multiple marriages, but forget > > > >>>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were > > far to religious. Pre marital > > > birth > > > >>> of > > > >>>> children are possible, because the men > > were not able to marry while in > > > >>>> military service and could not wait > > that long. They usually married > > > >>>> immediately when they were released. > > > >>>> As far as children > > born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my > > > >>>> mother's side gave birth to 13 > > children in the late 1800, of which 7 > > > lived > > > >>>> through their childhood diseases which > > killed many of their siblings. > > > The > > > >>>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, > > Diphteria, whooping cough, "Pocken" > > > >>>> which is smallpox and > > disentery. > > > >>>> They solely relied on herbal medicines > > then. > > > >>>> Aida > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary > > Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> > > > wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> I was wondering if there were men > > who had more than one wife > > > (polygamy) > > > >>> in > > > >>>>> the early to middle 1700's in > > Bohemia, or concubines? (I understand > > > in > > > >>>>> Germany there was polygamy at one > > time because of the lack of men, so > > > >>> many > > > >>>>> having been killed in wars.) > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> I have 18 children born to an > > Anton Utschig, with the wife as being > > > Anna > > > >>>>> Catharina. I found one > > marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina > > > >>> Pichl/Büchl), > > > >>>>> but cannot find the other > > marriage, if there were two separate > > > >>> marriages. > > > >>>>> Or he had a woman on the side, > > also named Anna Catharina who born him > > > >>> many > > > >>>>> children. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> There were three children born to > > an Anton and Anna Catharina before > > > the > > > >>>>> 1728 marriage I found. This > > is important to me because my 3rd great > > > >>>>> grandfather belonged to one of the > > Anton's and Anna Catharina's. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> These early records do not tell > > you much--no occupations listed like > > > in > > > >>>>> the later records. No haus > > numbers, no names of parents. Two > > > children > > > >>>>> born 3 months apart, another two, > > 7 months apart. The rest of the > > > >>> children > > > >>>>> are spaced out so that they could > > belong to either Anna Catharina. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> I have also looked to see if there > > was a death for the first Anna > > > >>>>> Catharina but could not find one. > > Yet the children mentioned above > > > who > > > >>> were > > > >>>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 > > (Aug and November) and the other in > > > >>> 1739 > > > >>>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of > > children in between). So my theory > > > on > > > >>> the > > > >>>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold > > up. Too many children born in between > > > >>> 1729 > > > >>>>> and 1739. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Any insight would be greatly > > appreciated. I hope this makes sense. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Mary > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society > > web site > > > >>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >>>>> ------------------------------- > > > >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, > > please send an email to > > > >>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > >>> without > > > >>>>> the quotes in the subject and the > > body of the message > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web > > site > > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >>>> ------------------------------- > > > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please > > send an email to > > > >>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of > > the message > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >>> ------------------------------- > > > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send > > an email to > > > >>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of > > the message > > > >>> > > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >> ------------------------------- > > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an > > email to > > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >------------------------------- > > > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email > > to > > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________________ > > > >A CEOExpressSelect Member > > > >http://www.ceoexpress.com > > > > > > > >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >------------------------------- > > > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email > > to > > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > > subject and the body of the message > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

/ Any information on the percent who served in units which were not headquartered in the draftee's recruitment district? For example, an Egerlander assigned to a e.g. Moravian unit, or Galcian unit, etc. _______ Lavrerntiy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aida Kraus" <birchbaylady@gmail.com> To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Marriage - Military Service and illegitamatebirths Mary, military service was a requirement and young healthy men had to serve. However, a lot of exceptions were made in the process of "mustering" - conscription. For instance, when a family settled in a new area where agricultural population was required within the Empire, there was no military service for the new settlers, and they were also given ten years of tax exemption. Actually, the conscription was very selective and not everyone passed through pretty stiff medical exams. Failing an eye exam alone would make the person "untauglich" = unfit to serve. Damages to limbs or birth defects were also unacceptable to service, and they would not pass conscription if they had a lung or skin diseases. Actually, most young men were eager to serve because they were always transferred to another area in the Monarchy and this afforded them travel and seeing a bit of the "world". It was considered a set back when they did not measure up to the conscription requirements. But in other circumstances, for instance, when a young man married early to take over the family's farm and avoided service, that was usually based on a necessity to take care of the family, which included older family members. The eldest son was often "passed over" for service, or another brother stood in for the son best suited to run the farm. I heard from my family that the young men were taking their duties quite seriously and "shirking" was not looked upon very favorably. The Bohemians were Royalists and true to the crown, and the House of Habsburg recognized the "Egerlander Regiment" as one of their best. Exiled Emperor Karl of Habsburg (recently deceased at a ripe old age) was always attending the meetings of the German Bohemians expellees in Germany. Aida

Vova provided: Kaiser Karl, beatified in the Roman Catholic Church, died in 1922 contemplating a crucifix held by Empress Zita. He never abdicated. He was also the last Emperor of the Austrian Empire. I think you may be speaking of Otto von Habsburg, the last Archduke. A true citizen of Europe, he was an early advocate for all of the minorities of the former Empire, not just the Bohemians, and even spoke several of the minority Slavic dialects (including Rusyn language). Stateless due to Hitler stripping him of his citizenship, he was offered the crown of Spain by Franco but he turned it down, but later became a delegate to and presideent of the European Parliament (from Bavaria). Vova H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aida Kraus" <birchbaylady@gmail.com> To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Marriage - Military Service and illegitamatebirths Mary, military service was a requirement and young healthy men had to serve. However, a lot of exceptions were made in the process of "mustering" - conscription. For instance, when a family settled in a new area where agricultural population was required within the Empire, there was no military service for the new settlers, and they were also given ten years of tax exemption. Actually, the conscription was very selective and not everyone passed through pretty stiff medical exams. Failing an eye exam alone would make the person "untauglich" = unfit to serve. Damages to limbs or birth defects were also unacceptable to service, and they would not pass conscription if they had a lung or skin diseases. Actually, most young men were eager to serve because they were always transferred to another area in the Monarchy and this afforded them travel and seeing a bit of the "world". It was considered a set back when they did not measure up to the conscription requirements. But in other circumstances, for instance, when a young man married early to take over the family's farm and avoided service, that was usually based on a necessity to take care of the family, which included older family members. The eldest son was often "passed over" for service, or another brother stood in for the son best suited to run the farm. I heard from my family that the young men were taking their duties quite seriously and "shirking" was not looked upon very favorably. The Bohemians were Royalists and true to the crown, and the House of Habsburg recognized the "Egerlander Regiment" as one of their best. Exiled Emperor Karl of Habsburg (recently deceased at a ripe old age) was always attending the meetings of the German Bohemians expellees in Germany. Aida On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 11:30 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> wrote: > Thanks for your advise, Aida. There were very few deaths of children > in > this large family which I thought unusual. Out of the really 18 > children, > I found only 3 deaths, then the death of Anton in 1757 and an Anna > Catharina in 1765. I found some marriages of a few of the children, > so I > will try and find births of their children, which by the later dates > should > reveal more information about parents and grandparents. > > Elaine asked a question about the military--whether it was voluntary > or > required. Can anyone answer that? If required, how old would they > have > had to be to be required to go into the military; and was there a > length of > time they had to serve? > > Thanks for everyone's input. > > Mary > > --- On Mon, 2/13/12, Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> wrote: > > > From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Marriage - Military Service and > illegitamate births > > To: polloe@earthlink.net, german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > Date: Monday, February 13, 2012, 11:14 PM > > Do not mix up the stories you hear > > about England or Ireland, or even > > Scandinavian places, because they were in the vicinity > > of a seashore. This > > is an entirely different culture and provides a steady mix > > of people. > > Bohemia is landlocked, the people who lived there lived in > > the same places > > for centuries and everybody knew everybody else's business > > for several > > generations (and besides the whole village was related by > > intermarriage). > > Everybody's affair was widely discussed among the > > villagers. This in > > itself had a rather self-controlling effect on all > > inhabitants. And that > > was also often the cause for emigration, some had just about > > enough of > > interferences. But let me tell you that villagers were very > > protective of > > their own people and sometimes rather cruel to outsiders or > > even villagers > > from the next village. Sometimes when a young swain from > > another village > > looked for a bride in a neighboring village, he was often > > thoroughly > > thrashed by the young men of the village where that pretty > > girl lived. To > > be able to steal the (village's Maibaum) may-tree and plant > > it in the > > garden of your sweetheart in another village, that was just > > about the > > greatest insult to the young men of a village but a great > > honor to the lady > > in question. There were "wars" fought in Springtime > > when the juices were > > flowing and there are a lot of funny stories as part of > > Egerland's legends. > > It simply was a very clannish group protecting their > > own. And because of > > that, those that deserved help received it. > > Read the prior discussions on that. > > Aida > > > > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:38 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> > > wrote: > > > > > Doug, Robert and Joseph bring up interesting points. > > Things I was not at > > > all familar with. > > > > > > Ya had to have enough money to marry? Like how much? > > Was this to pay the > > > church or to establish a home or for someother > > purpose? > > > > > > Did this mean the household of the new unwed Mother had > > to financially > > > support the new Mom and child? > > > > > > If so, Fathers must have cringed every time a female > > baby was born because > > > each daughter could end up costing him a great deal. > > > > > > Culturally, things must have been so different from > > place to place. Like > > > Doug, I was thinking about England and their cruelity > > with designations of > > > bastard and the like. > > > > > > Aida could you and others in the know, give us all a > > tutorial on the > > > broader subjects referenced in this discussion ? > > > > > > Thanks again, in advance, > > > > > > Elaine > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > >From: Joseph Lischka <jlischka@ceoexpress.com> > > > >Sent: Feb 14, 2012 12:02 AM > > > >To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > > >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages > > or concubines in 1700's > > > in Bohemia? > > > > > > > >My great grandfather Laurenz was born illegitemate > > to Frantisek and Eva > > > in 1844 in southwest Bohemia, where Frantisek was a > > millworker. Frantisek, > > > Eva and little Laurenz went back to Frantisek's home > > village in southeast > > > Bohemia soon after and Frantisek and Eva got married 14 > > years later, which > > > made Laurenz legitimate. Frantisek was never a soldier > > as far as I know. > > > The whole family were factory workers or day laborers > > and probably could > > > not afford to marry. > > > > > > > >--- rpaulgb@yahoo.com > > wrote: > > > > > > > >From: Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> > > > >To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > > >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages > > or concubines in 1700's > > > in Bohemia? > > > >Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 22:37:05 -0600 > > > > > > > >Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not > > marry until the man could > > > prove that he was finically able to support a family? > > > >I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he > > community did not > > > want to support a family that was not able to provide > > for itself > > > > > > > >On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > > > > > > >> Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian > > Army (and please don't forget > > > that > > > >> that this Army existed for 400 years) > > all soldiers of lower ranks were > > > >> not allowed to marry while in service. It was > > different in officers > > > ranks, > > > >> but then the father of the bride had to pay a > > dowry of 20,000 Kronen as > > > >> "Kaution" (security). I do not know the > > exact legal ramification on > > > that, > > > >> so you must read up on it. I just know > > the story from our family, > > > where my > > > >> aunt's arguments with her father were > > fierce, because she desired to > > > >> receive that money from him for her > > marriage. Since my grandfather had > > > 6 > > > >> daughters, he most certainly could not single > > out one of them with this > > > >> privilege. > > > >> And yes, these entries you > > found in the registers are indeed these > > > >> "early born" children who were declared > > legitimate as soon as the father > > > >> came back from his tour of > > duty. The Church was understanding in > > this, > > > >> because the couple was not able to marry while > > the groom was serving in > > > the > > > >> Military. > > > >> Aida > > > >> > > > >> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> Aide, > > > >>> > > > >>> Wondering about something you wrote below > > about Military Service, > > > Marriage > > > >>> and Births. > > > >>> > > > >>> Sometimes I notice in church registers > > that a woman gives birth to a > > > child > > > >>> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later > > date, it appears a Father's > > > name > > > >>> was added and illigitamet is crossed out > > and ligitamete added. > > > >>> > > > >>> Would this be likely one of those times > > when the Father was away with > > > the > > > >>> military? Would adding a Fathers > > name in such a situation happen > > > fairly > > > >>> regularly? > > > >>> > > > >>> Speaking of Military Service. In peace > > time ( was there any? ), what > > > was > > > >>> the requirement of males to military > > service? Did they ALL have to > > > service > > > >>> or was it voluntary? > > > >>> > > > >>> Thanks again, > > > >>> > > > >>> Elaine in Maine > > > >>> > > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > > >>>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > > > >>>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM > > > >>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > > >>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] > > Multiple marriages or concubines in > > > 1700's > > > >>> in Bohemia? > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood > > that our very Catholic families who > > > >>> were > > > >>>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl > > were polygamous. What you are > > > >>>> encountering is this. The > > Utschig were a HUGE family. Every family > > > had > > > >>>> many children, They became each others > > sponsors at birth and so the > > > same > > > >>>> first names come up again and > > again. If the births were only 3 or 7 > > > >>> months > > > >>>> apart, then you must look into the > > names of the father and mother, and > > > >>> even > > > >>>> there you may encounter the same > > names. So, since no house nunbers > > > are > > > >>>> given, you have to diagram your family > > members with their birth dates. > > > >>>> Eventually you will find out into > > which families they could they fit > > > it. > > > >>>> This is just your guideline. > > > >>>> I had a > > similar situation where three brothers had children > > and > > > >>>> all of them used the same first names > > over and over again. And > > > then, the > > > >>>> children of the NEXT generation were > > given the exactly same names by > > > their > > > >>>> related sponsors, which of course were > > family member, brothers > > > sisters, > > > >>>> cousins, and still - to this day > > - that whole clan is somewhat of a > > > >>> puzzle > > > >>>> to what family they belong; but > > it was not unusual that a woman gave > > > >>> birth > > > >>>> to 19 children.... one every year > > until menopause.. That does not mean > > > >>> that > > > >>>> they all survived, but they are, or > > course, listed as births in the > > > >>> church > > > >>>> register. So go then to the > > death register and see who was listed > > > there > > > >>>> and there they also give the names of > > the parents. It will help you > > > to > > > >>>> sort out the families. If you > > compare birth register to death > > > register > > > >>> you > > > >>>> will find more clarity. > > > >>>> Go back as > > far as you can and write down the names of the > > > couples > > > >>>> (meaning families of siblings). > > Then, write down the names of their > > > >>>> children and next to it the birth date > > and if you find a death entry > > > as > > > >>>> well...... > > > >>>> And then see, how they fit. > > > >>>> And this is the way you can sort it > > out. > > > >>>> Good luck. > > > >>>> Birth of 18 children is > > absolutely possible, we have found that many > > > >>> times > > > >>>> and from the same couple. Thre are > > also multiple marriages, but forget > > > >>>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were > > far to religious. Pre marital > > > birth > > > >>> of > > > >>>> children are possible, because the men > > were not able to marry while in > > > >>>> military service and could not wait > > that long. They usually married > > > >>>> immediately when they were released. > > > >>>> As far as children > > born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my > > > >>>> mother's side gave birth to 13 > > children in the late 1800, of which 7 > > > lived > > > >>>> through their childhood diseases which > > killed many of their siblings. > > > The > > > >>>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, > > Diphteria, whooping cough, "Pocken" > > > >>>> which is smallpox and > > disentery. > > > >>>> They solely relied on herbal medicines > > then. > > > >>>> Aida > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary > > Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> > > > wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> I was wondering if there were men > > who had more than one wife > > > (polygamy) > > > >>> in > > > >>>>> the early to middle 1700's in > > Bohemia, or concubines? (I understand > > > in > > > >>>>> Germany there was polygamy at one > > time because of the lack of men, so > > > >>> many > > > >>>>> having been killed in wars.) > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> I have 18 children born to an > > Anton Utschig, with the wife as being > > > Anna > > > >>>>> Catharina. I found one > > marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina > > > >>> Pichl/Büchl), > > > >>>>> but cannot find the other > > marriage, if there were two separate > > > >>> marriages. > > > >>>>> Or he had a woman on the side, > > also named Anna Catharina who born him > > > >>> many > > > >>>>> children. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> There were three children born to > > an Anton and Anna Catharina before > > > the > > > >>>>> 1728 marriage I found. This > > is important to me because my 3rd great > > > >>>>> grandfather belonged to one of the > > Anton's and Anna Catharina's. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> These early records do not tell > > you much--no occupations listed like > > > in > > > >>>>> the later records. No haus > > numbers, no names of parents. Two > > > children > > > >>>>> born 3 months apart, another two, > > 7 months apart. The rest of the > > > >>> children > > > >>>>> are spaced out so that they could > > belong to either Anna Catharina. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> I have also looked to see if there > > was a death for the first Anna > > > >>>>> Catharina but could not find one. > > Yet the children mentioned above > > > who > > > >>> were > > > >>>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 > > (Aug and November) and the other in > > > >>> 1739 > > > >>>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of > > children in between). So my theory > > > on > > > >>> the > > > >>>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold > > up. Too many children born in between > > > >>> 1729 > > > >>>>> and 1739. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Any insight would be greatly > > appreciated. I hope this makes sense. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Mary > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society > > web site > > > >>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >>>>> ------------------------------- > > > >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, > > please send an email to > > > >>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > >>> without > > > >>>>> the quotes in the subject and the > > body of the message > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web > > site > > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >>>> ------------------------------- > > > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please > > send an email to > > > >>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of > > the message > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >>> ------------------------------- > > > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send > > an email to > > > >>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of > > the message > > > >>> > > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >> ------------------------------- > > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an > > email to > > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >------------------------------- > > > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email > > to > > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________________ > > > >A CEOExpressSelect Member > > > >http://www.ceoexpress.com > > > > > > > >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >------------------------------- > > > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email > > to > > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > > subject and the body of the message > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message