In a message dated 3/12/2006 8:24:26 AM Mountain Standard Time, LKrupnak@erols.com writes: I know, but my question is why didn't Bohemian Germans also move to democratic Germany after WWI if they didn't like the Czechoslovakian government (i.e. the post-World War I CZ government)? Other reasons besides what Aida mentioned. The German-Bohemians have never felt any real affinity for "Germany". One reason is that they feared the way the Prussians had attempted to protestantize the areas they ruled following establishment of the Prussian Reich 1871-1918. Their Roman Catholic religion is not just their faith but also a sort of "political statement" similar to that of the Poles during the period of Russian occupation. During the period that they were ruled by an Austrian Kaiser they enjoyed certain benefits of being German -- they were the Kaiser's political base in Bohemia. Inl 1868 after the bloody war with Prussia many began to understand tha t they could not count on the Kaiser any longer. They lost faith in his interest in their welfare after he turned them to cannon fodder on the battlefield at Königgrätz. The Czechs and Hungarians used the apparent weaknes of the Kaiser caused by the Prussian victory to begin a slow erosion of some of the German minority's social safeguards. Many saw that they were going to lose their political status and that represented some dangers to their lifestyle. The defeat also added economic burdens that were the last straw for many and that was when serious immigration to the US began. (My great grandfather was a veteran of that war, was discharged in 1867 and by 1869 he was in Minnesota.) The important thing is that the German-Bohemians felt they enjoyed the Kaiser's protection up to that time and they were proud to call themselves "Austrian." Granted, equal language rights is a concession that I believe the Kaiser should have granted back in 1830 when it first became a serious national issue. The classes at Charles Universtiy were taught in German only into the 1860s and all official documents were in German only and it is easy to see how that would be an important issue to the Czechs. Those who wanted to advance economically and socially simply had to learn German and many of them did so. The Germans felt little need to learn Czech. Under the Kaiser's rule the Czechs were forced to learn German if they wanted a good job or to go to the University. That situation eventually became the impetus for the Czech nationalism that culminated in the search for unity with the "Slavic Brotherhood" of Eastern Europe by Benesch. The Egerland is a special place. It was once a part of upper Bavaria. It came under the Bohemian crown in 1232 when the Bavarian king had to give it up because he had mortgaged it to the Bohemian king to pay for a war against the Holy Roman Emperor. When Bavaria could not repay the loan, Bohemia foreclosed and the Egerland with all its German population became Bohemian. The Germans who lived there managed to find a way to cope and make the best of their political situaltion no matter how it changed over time. That "find a way" to change things tradition was also a part of their culture and another reason that they stayed where their roots were -- they believed that eventually things would be different if they could just live and let-live.. Over the years there were Czechs who migrated into the Egerland because that was where the best jobs were located. But they were still only about a 5% minority in 1918 and there were many rural places in the Egerland where there were no Czechs at all. The Egerlander German-Bohemians along with some other "borderland" communties petitioned for a plebiscite for self determination for themselves as a 95% majority of the western part of Bohemia after WW I just as did the Slovaks). They set up an autonomous state with the name "Austrian" in it. I don't recall for sure but I seem to remember it was "Austrian Germany". They also established an interim government in hopes that the plebiscite would be approved. The Czech army moved in and forced unification with CZ with quite a bit of bloodshed. I don't recall if that was before or after the vote by the Allies on the requested plebiscites. Ultimately the Allies denied the plebiscite and included the contested areas (western Bohemia and Slovakia) in the new state of CZ. Slovakia was to be given a certain amount of autonomy but that never happened. The Czechs immediately required all village, town, city and country adminstrators to be of Czech nationality -- down to office clerks -- even in places that had no Czech population whatever. If there were one Czech child in a place all of the schools had to teach only in Czech at first. Czechs replaced Germans in governent (down to postmen and railroad workers) and managerial and other industrial jobs and Germans could not hold those postitions by law. In many instances the Germans had to train the Czechs who would replace them. In the end the new laws left only casual labor positions open for Germans and many had to seek employment in Germany and Austria in order to make a living and stay in their homes in Bohemia. Another option was to emigrate. Some Sudetens decided that they could continue to live and let-live and the best way to keep their homes and to change the system was with politics. They formed a Sudeten German political party to make sure that Germans would be represented in the Czech legislature. Many feel that they were making slow progress towards more equality economically and in education about the time that "Munich" took place. All of Europe felt that the denial of the plebiscites in 1918 was a great injustice. It was something that created a certain amount of unrest and the "Sudeten Question" was something that Hitler used to threaten the rest of Europe.. Europe wanted to fix it. The Munich conference agreed that western Bohemia sould be a "German state" and gave it to the Third Reich as of 1939. The area included partos of the Bohemian Forest alond the border with Bavaria. The denial of the plebiscite in 1918 and the on-going economic and cultural suppression of Germans (through schools and administrative proceedures) since then was one of the main reasons that the Sudetens welcomed the Third Reich as "liberators". There were 10,000 Germans who fled old Bohemia in 1938 because they disagreed with the NAZIs. Some managed to make it to Canada and Sweden with the help of the Red Cross but most of them who went to other European countries were forcibly repatriated and ended up in concentration camps. I read an article about the Sudetens from the Jeschken-Iser district who went to Canada then in a Jeschen-Iser Jarhbuch. Our Canadian members probably know of the German-Canadian settlements of 1938. Karen

At 11:07 AM 3/12/2006, you wrote: >In a message dated 3/12/2006 8:24:26 AM Mountain Standard Time, >LKrupnak@erols.com writes: >I know, but my question is why didn't Bohemian Germans also move to >democratic Germany after WWI if they didn't like the Czechoslovakian >government (i.e. the post-World War I CZ government)? > Other reasons besides what Aida mentioned. > >The German-Bohemians have never felt any real affinity for "Germany". One >reason is that they feared the way the Prussians had attempted to >protestantize >the areas they ruled following establishment of the Prussian Reich >1871-1918. > Their Roman Catholic religion is not just their faith but also a sort of >"political statement" similar to that of the Poles during the period of >Russian >occupation. > >During the period that they were ruled by an Austrian Kaiser they enjoyed >certain benefits of being German -- they were the Kaiser's political base in >Bohemia. Inl 1868 after the bloody war with Prussia many began to >understand tha >t they could not count on the Kaiser any longer. They lost faith in his >interest in their welfare after he turned them to cannon fodder on the >battlefield >at Königgrätz. The Czechs and Hungarians used the apparent weaknes of the >Kaiser caused by the Prussian victory to begin a slow erosion of some of the >German minority's social safeguards. Many saw that they were going to >lose their >political status and that represented some dangers to their lifestyle. The >defeat also added economic burdens that were the last straw for many and that >was when serious immigration to the US began. (My great grandfather was a >veteran of that war, was discharged in 1867 and by 1869 he was in Minnesota.) > >The important thing is that the German-Bohemians felt they enjoyed the >Kaiser's protection up to that time and they were proud to call themselves >"Austrian." > >Granted, equal language rights is a concession that I believe the Kaiser >should have granted back in 1830 when it first became a serious national >issue. >The classes at Charles Universtiy were taught in German only into the >1860s and >all official documents were in German only and it is easy to see how that >would be an important issue to the Czechs. Those who wanted to advance >economically and socially simply had to learn German and many of them did >so. The >Germans felt little need to learn Czech. > >Under the Kaiser's rule the Czechs were forced to learn German if they wanted >a good job or to go to the University. That situation eventually became the >impetus for the Czech nationalism that culminated in the search for unity >with >the "Slavic Brotherhood" of Eastern Europe by Benesch. > >The Egerland is a special place. It was once a part of upper Bavaria. It >came under the Bohemian crown in 1232 when the Bavarian king had to give >it up >because he had mortgaged it to the Bohemian king to pay for a war against the >Holy Roman Emperor. When Bavaria could not repay the loan, Bohemia >foreclosed >and the Egerland with all its German population became Bohemian. The >Germans who lived there managed to find a way to cope and make the best of >their >political situaltion no matter how it changed over time. That "find a >way" to >change things tradition was also a part of their culture and another reason >that they stayed where their roots were -- they believed that eventually >things >would be different if they could just live and let-live.. > >Over the years there were Czechs who migrated into the Egerland because that >was where the best jobs were located. But they were still only about a 5% >minority in 1918 and there were many rural places in the Egerland where there >were no Czechs at all. > >The Egerlander German-Bohemians along with some other "borderland" communties >petitioned for a plebiscite for self determination for themselves as a 95% >majority of the western part of Bohemia after WW I just as did the >Slovaks). >They set up an autonomous state with the name "Austrian" in it. I don't >recall >for sure but I seem to remember it was "Austrian Germany". They also >established an interim government in hopes that the plebiscite would be >approved. > >The Czech army moved in and forced unification with CZ with quite a bit of >bloodshed. I don't recall if that was before or after the vote by the >Allies on >the requested plebiscites. Ultimately the Allies denied the plebiscite and >included the contested areas (western Bohemia and Slovakia) in the new >state of >CZ. Slovakia was to be given a certain amount of autonomy but that never >happened. > >The Czechs immediately required all village, town, city and country >adminstrators to be of Czech nationality -- down to office clerks -- even >in places >that had no Czech population whatever. If there were one Czech child in >a place >all of the schools had to teach only in Czech at first. Czechs replaced >Germans in governent (down to postmen and railroad workers) and managerial >and >other industrial jobs and Germans could not hold those postitions by law. In >many instances the Germans had to train the Czechs who would replace >them. In >the end the new laws left only casual labor positions open for Germans and >many >had to seek employment in Germany and Austria in order to make a living and >stay in their homes in Bohemia. Another option was to emigrate. > >Some Sudetens decided that they could continue to live and let-live and the >best way to keep their homes and to change the system was with >politics. They >formed a Sudeten German political party to make sure that Germans would be >represented in the Czech legislature. Many feel that they were making slow >progress towards more equality economically and in education about the >time that >"Munich" took place. > >All of Europe felt that the denial of the plebiscites in 1918 was a great >injustice. It was something that created a certain amount of unrest and the >"Sudeten Question" was something that Hitler used to threaten the rest of >Europe.. Europe wanted to fix it. > >The Munich conference agreed that western Bohemia sould be a "German state" >and gave it to the Third Reich as of 1939. The area included partos of the >Bohemian Forest alond the border with Bavaria. > >The denial of the plebiscite in 1918 and the on-going economic and cultural >suppression of Germans (through schools and administrative >proceedures) since >then was one of the main reasons that the Sudetens welcomed the Third Reich >as "liberators". > >There were 10,000 Germans who fled old Bohemia in 1938 because they >disagreed with the NAZIs. Some managed to make it to Canada and Sweden >with the help >of the Red Cross but most of them who went to other European countries were >forcibly repatriated and ended up in concentration camps. I read an article >about the Sudetens from the Jeschken-Iser district who went to Canada then >in a >Jeschen-Iser Jarhbuch. Our Canadian members probably know of the >German-Canadian settlements of 1938. > >Karen --------- Karen the reasons you mentioned above is exactly why my grandfather left Haslau/Asch in 1905. He did not want his sons in the army and there was no future there for him. All he owned was his house. I think he had been in the army and he felt there was going to be another war.When the first world war started, fiends of my uncle who was born there said the government was around looking for the MUELLER boys. Your article is well put and in my estimation the fate of those people was set in 1918 and what happened in 1945/46 was an acceleration of the brutality of the Czechs towards the German people. The second world war was just an excuse. Cheers Doug