just looking at your surnames...I have a Charlie Goetz m to Martha Margareta Catherina Lindhorst (no dates for the Charlie, but Martha is 1871-1898; no other info on Goetz, but Martha's parents were Rudolph Lindhorst (1837-1927) m. to Maria Margaretta Hartwig (1846-1922) both from Prussia Germany - no further info going back there either. Don't have Theisinger - but do have Thies, Thiess, Theisen, Theissen, Thessen, Thoenen, Thielan, Thiebing; Don't have Mayer but do have Mauer's probably not related - but I'm always checking each sigline! :-) have a good day ~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ Warrenton, MO http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com Looking for surnames of BANGERT, CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, DIESEL, DILLON, FIELDS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, GOLD, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, KRAFT, MEES/MAES, MENTEL, MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), MITCHELL, PROBST, RAPP, REIS, SCHALLOM, SCHELLHORN, STALEY, STEPPIG, THOELE, WEBER ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven and Susan Karides" <karides@sbcglobal.net> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 9:58 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer Thank you, Aida for all your valuable information. I've, in fact been to all of my ancestral villages (not much remaining, there!), have Heimatbuecher for the villages and am still in contact and frequently visit my dad's cousins who went from the Egerland to Bavaria at the time of the expulsion. I've got my research rather far back on my main surname lines, but because I was under the incorrect assumption that they were not landowners, never endeavored to research the Berni Rula (will have to check the archives to find out how!), although have read what I think you refer to as the Chronik (am I correct to think of that as the Chronik of the Kreis such as that one I have "Falkenau, Stadt und Land"? I've just always been told by the "oldtimers" in the family in Bavaria (some who are involved in the Heimatstuben) that my names (main ones are Muehlhans and Theisinger) are very old Egerlaender names that "go way back" (no one can ever tell me how far back, though!). So, perhaps a new direction for research I thought I had finished a long time ago!! Thanks. again, for all your insight. You help a great number of people. Since I have not posted my surnames for ages, I will list the main ones: MUEHLHANS/GOETZ/THEISINGER/KNOEBL/KUEHNL/BRANDL/MAYER/GUETTER/ ERTL all in Kreis Falkenau a.d. Eger (Theisinger relocated to Karlsbad in 1920s). Susan On May 17, 2006, at 6:33 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > All the above titles means that they are property owners in the > Egerland. Perhaps individual nobles had different types of serfs > for whom they provided a living space, but that would be for the > minority of the Egerland population. So we should not assume that > our ancestors were "serfs" but most likely did certain tasks in > lieu of paying taxes. I have never encountered this in my own > ancestral search, as they are all listed in the Berni Rula as > property owners. And they appear in the Berni rula with the > various description or titles of Owner, Farmer, Cottager and Gardener. > If you walked through a village in Bohemia, you would see that > there are as many different sized properties, as you'll find > anywhere. The only difference is that the farms are all clustered > together into a village and their fields are on the periphery. A > farm that stood by itself was usually a "Gut" or a "Hof" and had > larger and more buildings, they are very old land holdings. > Now here is what I know from researching my own ancestors and > at first, my opinion of Häusler and Gardener was just like yours, > until I found out that they were actually owners of these places > and had to pay taxes. I have several original documents and one > ancestor is listed as Bürger und Schuhmacher (burgher and > shoemaker) at Petschau and they owned that house and a large > garden. There was a castle at Petschau, and I believe that the > Beauforts lived there. If anyone offspring of these Nobles reads > this, please enlighted us about the status of the common population! > There is a Bürger und Uhrmacher (burgher and watchmaker) at the > town of Marienbad in my family, and while he himself at the time of > his marriage is not listed as Hausbesitzer (Owner), his father > owned 3 hotels. There is one Wundarzt (surgeon) at Donawitz and > there is no listing that he was either a Burgher or Owner. There > is a Häusler" (cottager) at Neumetternich near Marienbad who owned > his place and married a "Bauerntochter" (farmer's daughter) from > Dürrmaul, they owned a very substantial Tudor "cottage" until they > were expelled. There is a "Hausbesitzer" at Schönthal (which was a > large village) who owned a "Hof" (large farm) where the family > lived until expellation. They were original settlers and mentioned > in the Chronic and the Berni Rula. There are several other family > members who lived in the Egerland and were given the title > "Häusler," but all these were well built stone or brick houses > with basement and 2 stories... and were still in the family when > they were expelled. > What we have to do here is to pay attention to the area where > they lived and who administered the area. We have to search and > ask: was the land they lived on belonging to a cloister, a noble, a > landholding of a nearby City, or very old settlers property. The > latter can lead far back, probably to 1100-1300, for which there > may be no records. The Catholic Church appears in the 12th > century, but somewhat earlier in the Prag and Budweis areas. It > would be best to get in touch with the expelled people, who > maintain "Heimatstuben" in Germany and request a name list of early > settlers of that particular village from their Chronic. Most of > the original record keepers have passed on, but there are contact > people for the individual villages. Go to a German > website.....and www.yahoo.de is a good one, put the German name of > your ancestor's village in the URL and see what comes up. Some of > them are better than others. I presume that you have checked the > Rootsweb first! > Do not be too optimistic to get at any of the Chronics! > Unfortunately, I must warn you here, that some of these > irreplaceable records found their end buried in manure piles > because of names recorded there during the Nazi occupation. The > person in charge of these documents was most likely a Party member > destroying evidence. Had the Czechs found a Chronic in a village > where names were recorded who held offices during the Hitler > regime, the executions would have hit even more ferociously. So > don't place too much hope on finding these. You will be luckiest > with those villages closest to the Bavarian Border, because the > people hightailed out of there in a hurry, taking the entire > village archives along - like the people of Eger, for instance - > and in most cases the US occupational Forces provided their > transportation. > The records of the Berni Rula will show all your ancestors that > were propertied it 1651. > If your ancestor came from the Budweis and Pilsen area it just > might be a little different than the situation in the Egerland > because there is a different historical background. The Egerland > was not Bohemia originally, it was part of the Oberpfalz, and that > was and still is to this day: Bavaria. > How to locate the Egerland correctl, that I will put into a > different Email. > Aida > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven and Susan Karides" > <karides@sbcglobal.net> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:45 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer > > >> >> On May 15, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: >> >> A "Bauer" is farmer with a full spread, "Häusler" is most >> likely a craftsman operating a smaller farm, "Gardener" is >> employed elsewhere and just grows his vegetables and raises small >> animals around the house he owns, and a "Hausbesitzer" is a >> Burgher in a town, a free man >> >> >>> The definition of a "Haeusler" in William E. Wrights "Serf, >>> Seigneur and Sovereign..Agararian Reform in Eighteenth-Century >>> Bohemia" is summed up in his passage(p 17): " Further peasant >>> ranks included cotters (Haeusler) and servants or day laborers >>> (Inleute). These usually held no land other than gardens >>> adjacent to their houses. They supported themselves and their >>> families by working for their wages or payment in kind. Their >>> obligations to the lord were usually considerably fewer than >>> those of the land- holding peasants." I had always construed >>> that to mean that they did now own any land, including the house >>> in which they lived. Is that correct? I have lots of Haeuslers >>> in the 1700s and early 1800s. Thanks for all your knowledge that >>> you so unselfishly share! >> >> Susan >> >> >> >>> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you >>> joined the list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// >>> archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >>> >> >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? >> Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined > the list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// > archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/