Hi Pam, My Goetz info: My G-Grandmother born Theresia Goetz (b. 1853 @ Eberslfeld, Kries \Falkenau; married Simon Muehlhans 1872 @ Goldorf, Falkenau). Her parents: Josef Goetz (b. 1827 @ Albernhof; married Elizabeth Mayer from Schoenbrunn in 1852 @ Ebersfeld; he died ca. 1872 or 1879 @ Ebersfeld No. 18). Josef Goetz's parents: Anton Goetz (b. 1799 @ Hoofen No, 18---I can't find this place; think it was written incorrectly--/married to Johanna Lill from Bernau. in 1823 @ Bernau No. 16). Anton Goetz's parents: Johann Georg Goetz (1761-1786) and Magdalena Schneider. Johann Georg Goetz's parents: Johann Goerg Goetz and Marie Elisabeth (no vital dates for them; they were listed in the marriage record of their son). Of the Goetz family, Theresia Goetz Muehlhans stayed in the homeland. Her brother, Anton Goetz came to Milwaukee and owned a coal and fuel company (wife was Katherine and a daughter called Molly; she had no children). My grandfather (Theresia's son), Josef Muehlhans, from Golddorf, came here in 1903. Good luck on your search! Susan Muehlhans-Karides On May 18, 2006, at 7:34 AM, Pam wrote: > just looking at your surnames...I have a Charlie Goetz m to Martha > Margareta > Catherina Lindhorst (no dates for the Charlie, but Martha is > 1871-1898; no > other info on Goetz, but Martha's parents were Rudolph Lindhorst > (1837-1927) > m. to Maria Margaretta Hartwig (1846-1922) both from Prussia > Germany - no > further info going back there either. > > Don't have Theisinger - but do have Thies, Thiess, Theisen, Theissen, > Thessen, Thoenen, Thielan, Thiebing; > > Don't have Mayer but do have Mauer's > > probably not related - but I'm always checking each sigline! :-) > > have a good day > > ~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ > Warrenton, MO > http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com > http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com > Looking for surnames of BANGERT, CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, DIESEL, DILLON, > FIELDS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, GOLD, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, KRAFT, > MEES/MAES, > MENTEL, MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), MITCHELL, PROBST, RAPP, REIS, > SCHALLOM, > SCHELLHORN, STALEY, STEPPIG, THOELE, WEBER > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven and Susan Karides" <karides@sbcglobal.net> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 9:58 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: > Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer > > > Thank you, Aida for all your valuable information. I've, in fact been > to all of my ancestral villages (not much remaining, there!), have > Heimatbuecher for the villages and am still in contact and frequently > visit my dad's cousins who went from the Egerland to Bavaria at the > time of the expulsion. I've got my research rather far back on my > main surname lines, but because I was under the incorrect assumption > that they were not landowners, never endeavored to research the Berni > Rula (will have to check the archives to find out how!), although > have read what I think you refer to as the Chronik (am I correct to > think of that as the Chronik of the Kreis such as that one I have > "Falkenau, Stadt und Land"? I've just always been told by the > "oldtimers" in the family in Bavaria (some who are involved in the > Heimatstuben) that my names (main ones are Muehlhans and > Theisinger) are very old Egerlaender names that "go way back" (no > one can ever tell me how far back, though!). So, perhaps a new > direction for research I thought I had finished a long time ago!! > Thanks. again, for all your insight. You help a great number of > people. > > Since I have not posted my surnames for ages, I will list the main > ones: MUEHLHANS/GOETZ/THEISINGER/KNOEBL/KUEHNL/BRANDL/MAYER/GUETTER/ > ERTL all in Kreis Falkenau a.d. Eger (Theisinger relocated to > Karlsbad in 1920s). > Susan > On May 17, 2006, at 6:33 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > >> >> All the above titles means that they are property owners in the >> Egerland. Perhaps individual nobles had different types of serfs >> for whom they provided a living space, but that would be for the >> minority of the Egerland population. So we should not assume that >> our ancestors were "serfs" but most likely did certain tasks in >> lieu of paying taxes. I have never encountered this in my own >> ancestral search, as they are all listed in the Berni Rula as >> property owners. And they appear in the Berni rula with the >> various description or titles of Owner, Farmer, Cottager and >> Gardener. >> If you walked through a village in Bohemia, you would see that >> there are as many different sized properties, as you'll find >> anywhere. The only difference is that the farms are all clustered >> together into a village and their fields are on the periphery. A >> farm that stood by itself was usually a "Gut" or a "Hof" and had >> larger and more buildings, they are very old land holdings. >> Now here is what I know from researching my own ancestors and >> at first, my opinion of Häusler and Gardener was just like yours, >> until I found out that they were actually owners of these places >> and had to pay taxes. I have several original documents and one >> ancestor is listed as Bürger und Schuhmacher (burgher and >> shoemaker) at Petschau and they owned that house and a large >> garden. There was a castle at Petschau, and I believe that the >> Beauforts lived there. If anyone offspring of these Nobles reads >> this, please enlighted us about the status of the common population! >> There is a Bürger und Uhrmacher (burgher and watchmaker) at the >> town of Marienbad in my family, and while he himself at the time of >> his marriage is not listed as Hausbesitzer (Owner), his father >> owned 3 hotels. There is one Wundarzt (surgeon) at Donawitz and >> there is no listing that he was either a Burgher or Owner. There >> is a Häusler" (cottager) at Neumetternich near Marienbad who owned >> his place and married a "Bauerntochter" (farmer's daughter) from >> Dürrmaul, they owned a very substantial Tudor "cottage" until they >> were expelled. There is a "Hausbesitzer" at Schönthal (which was a >> large village) who owned a "Hof" (large farm) where the family >> lived until expellation. They were original settlers and mentioned >> in the Chronic and the Berni Rula. There are several other family >> members who lived in the Egerland and were given the title >> "Häusler," but all these were well built stone or brick houses >> with basement and 2 stories... and were still in the family when >> they were expelled. >> What we have to do here is to pay attention to the area where >> they lived and who administered the area. We have to search and >> ask: was the land they lived on belonging to a cloister, a noble, a >> landholding of a nearby City, or very old settlers property. The >> latter can lead far back, probably to 1100-1300, for which there >> may be no records. The Catholic Church appears in the 12th >> century, but somewhat earlier in the Prag and Budweis areas. It >> would be best to get in touch with the expelled people, who >> maintain "Heimatstuben" in Germany and request a name list of early >> settlers of that particular village from their Chronic. Most of >> the original record keepers have passed on, but there are contact >> people for the individual villages. Go to a German >> website.....and www.yahoo.de is a good one, put the German name of >> your ancestor's village in the URL and see what comes up. Some of >> them are better than others. I presume that you have checked the >> Rootsweb first! >> Do not be too optimistic to get at any of the Chronics! >> Unfortunately, I must warn you here, that some of these >> irreplaceable records found their end buried in manure piles >> because of names recorded there during the Nazi occupation. The >> person in charge of these documents was most likely a Party member >> destroying evidence. Had the Czechs found a Chronic in a village >> where names were recorded who held offices during the Hitler >> regime, the executions would have hit even more ferociously. So >> don't place too much hope on finding these. You will be luckiest >> with those villages closest to the Bavarian Border, because the >> people hightailed out of there in a hurry, taking the entire >> village archives along - like the people of Eger, for instance - >> and in most cases the US occupational Forces provided their >> transportation. >> The records of the Berni Rula will show all your ancestors that >> were propertied it 1651. >> If your ancestor came from the Budweis and Pilsen area it just >> might be a little different than the situation in the Egerland >> because there is a different historical background. The Egerland >> was not Bohemia originally, it was part of the Oberpfalz, and that >> was and still is to this day: Bavaria. >> How to locate the Egerland correctl, that I will put into a >> different Email. >> Aida >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven and Susan Karides" >> <karides@sbcglobal.net> >> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:45 PM >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer >> >> >>> >>> On May 15, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: >>> >>> A "Bauer" is farmer with a full spread, "Häusler" is most >>> likely a craftsman operating a smaller farm, "Gardener" is >>> employed elsewhere and just grows his vegetables and raises small >>> animals around the house he owns, and a "Hausbesitzer" is a >>> Burgher in a town, a free man >>> >>> >>>> The definition of a "Haeusler" in William E. Wrights "Serf, >>>> Seigneur and Sovereign..Agararian Reform in Eighteenth-Century >>>> Bohemia" is summed up in his passage(p 17): " Further peasant >>>> ranks included cotters (Haeusler) and servants or day laborers >>>> (Inleute). These usually held no land other than gardens >>>> adjacent to their houses. They supported themselves and their >>>> families by working for their wages or payment in kind. Their >>>> obligations to the lord were usually considerably fewer than >>>> those of the land- holding peasants." I had always construed >>>> that to mean that they did now own any land, including the house >>>> in which they lived. Is that correct? I have lots of Haeuslers >>>> in the 1700s and early 1800s. Thanks for all your knowledge that >>>> you so unselfishly share! >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> >>> >>>> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>>> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you >>>> joined the list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// >>>> archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>> Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? >>> Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined >> the list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// >> archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >> > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined > the list? To search the archives, go to: http:// > listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN >