You sure are a bona fide old time Egerlander according to your ancestral names and these cannot be traced back because they were there ALL THE TIME! I might even know your Karlsbader Theisingers, or at least my parents did with certainty. Re.Chronik.... yes some of it you can abstract in the general form from the Kreis Chronik, but you will have to go to the Village itself to find the individuals that lived there. Many times they are revealed as village elders (and with your Egerlander names I am quite sure you will find them there) . And I am also sure that you will find most all of them in the Berni Rula, just as I did, which is an alphabetical listing, but be very "creative" as to spelling! It can be requested on an interlibrary loan and if you scroll back a few days you will find my posting of its source. It is good to copy and paste all these information on into a "research folder" ... you never know when you will need them. Aida Theisinger: Cuno von Theising is recorded 1295 at Salzburg, another branch called Theisinger were in Bohemia and Bavaria. There is also a village in the Egerland called Theusing. Götz: you can hardly get more Egerländerisch than this!!! The best pastry shop in Karlsbad was Götzl (a smaller version of Götz= Gottfried), also listed as Goczel at Prague and Breslau in 1389. Kühnl: "kühn" means brave. Written as Kühndl at Iglau in 1391, spelled Kiendl in Austria, Kühnl in Unterfranken, Bavaria Mühlhans, Meyer are too generell for all of Germany and therefore very hard to place! Guetter may be Allemanni(different German tribe from Marcomanni to the East) written as Güder in Switzerland where it means "spendthrift" or "wastrel" shows up in 1278 at Pullendorf and 1438 at Heidelberg. Brandl and Brandt comes from Hildebrandt (legendary figure) who was the swordmaker (weapon-smith) for Dietrich v. Bern, read the Nibelungen Lied! Elevated status W. (?) de Brant 1280 at Zürich, 1289 at Württemberg, Brant Klobelauch 1493 at Frankfurt, Sebastian Brant, poet, 1500. I went to school with 2 Brandls at Karlsbad . Knoebl: probably from either Saxon or Bavarian area where they show as Knöfel. In old high German it is written as "Knöufel" and means "Knopf" which is a button. A button maker most likely. Shows up in 1549 at Leipzig, just North of the Egerland beyond the Ore Mountains. ------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven and Susan Karides" <karides@sbcglobal.net> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer > Thank you, Aida for all your valuable information. I've, in fact been to > all of my ancestral villages (not much remaining, there!), have > Heimatbuecher for the villages and am still in contact and frequently > visit my dad's cousins who went from the Egerland to Bavaria at the time > of the expulsion. I've got my research rather far back on my main surname > lines, but because I was under the incorrect assumption that they were > not landowners, never endeavored to research the Berni Rula (will have to > check the archives to find out how!), although have read what I think you > refer to as the Chronik (am I correct to think of that as the Chronik of > the Kreis such as that one I have "Falkenau, Stadt und Land"? I've just > always been told by the "oldtimers" in the family in Bavaria (some who > are involved in the Heimatstuben) that my names (main ones are Muehlhans > and Theisinger) are very old Egerlaender names that "go way back" (no > one can ever tell me how far back, though!). So, perhaps a new direction > for research I thought I had finished a long time ago!! Thanks. again, > for all your insight. You help a great number of people. > > Since I have not posted my surnames for ages, I will list the main ones: > MUEHLHANS/GOETZ/THEISINGER/KNOEBL/KUEHNL/BRANDL/MAYER/GUETTER/ ERTL all in > Kreis Falkenau a.d. Eger (Theisinger relocated to Karlsbad in 1920s). > Susan > On May 17, 2006, at 6:33 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > >> >> All the above titles means that they are property owners in the >> Egerland. Perhaps individual nobles had different types of serfs for >> whom they provided a living space, but that would be for the minority of >> the Egerland population. So we should not assume that our ancestors >> were "serfs" but most likely did certain tasks in lieu of paying taxes. >> I have never encountered this in my own ancestral search, as they are >> all listed in the Berni Rula as property owners. And they appear in >> the Berni rula with the various description or titles of Owner, Farmer, >> Cottager and Gardener. >> If you walked through a village in Bohemia, you would see that there >> are as many different sized properties, as you'll find anywhere. The >> only difference is that the farms are all clustered together into a >> village and their fields are on the periphery. A farm that stood by >> itself was usually a "Gut" or a "Hof" and had larger and more buildings, >> they are very old land holdings. >> Now here is what I know from researching my own ancestors and at >> first, my opinion of Häusler and Gardener was just like yours, until I >> found out that they were actually owners of these places and had to pay >> taxes. I have several original documents and one ancestor is listed as >> Bürger und Schuhmacher (burgher and shoemaker) at Petschau and they >> owned that house and a large garden. There was a castle at Petschau, and >> I believe that the Beauforts lived there. If anyone offspring of these >> Nobles reads this, please enlighted us about the status of the common >> population! >> There is a Bürger und Uhrmacher (burgher and watchmaker) at the town >> of Marienbad in my family, and while he himself at the time of his >> marriage is not listed as Hausbesitzer (Owner), his father owned 3 >> hotels. There is one Wundarzt (surgeon) at Donawitz and there is no >> listing that he was either a Burgher or Owner. There is a Häusler" >> (cottager) at Neumetternich near Marienbad who owned his place and >> married a "Bauerntochter" (farmer's daughter) from Dürrmaul, they owned >> a very substantial Tudor "cottage" until they were expelled. There is a >> "Hausbesitzer" at Schönthal (which was a large village) who owned a >> "Hof" (large farm) where the family lived until expellation. They were >> original settlers and mentioned in the Chronic and the Berni Rula. >> There are several other family members who lived in the Egerland and >> were given the title "Häusler," but all these were well built stone or >> brick houses with basement and 2 stories... and were still in the family >> when they were expelled. >> What we have to do here is to pay attention to the area where they >> lived and who administered the area. We have to search and ask: was the >> land they lived on belonging to a cloister, a noble, a landholding of a >> nearby City, or very old settlers property. The latter can lead far >> back, probably to 1100-1300, for which there may be no records. The >> Catholic Church appears in the 12th century, but somewhat earlier in the >> Prag and Budweis areas. It would be best to get in touch with the >> expelled people, who maintain "Heimatstuben" in Germany and request a >> name list of early settlers of that particular village from their >> Chronic. Most of the original record keepers have passed on, but there >> are contact people for the individual villages. Go to a German >> website.....and www.yahoo.de is a good one, put the German name of your >> ancestor's village in the URL and see what comes up. Some of them are >> better than others. I presume that you have checked the Rootsweb first! >> Do not be too optimistic to get at any of the Chronics! >> Unfortunately, I must warn you here, that some of these irreplaceable >> records found their end buried in manure piles because of names recorded >> there during the Nazi occupation. The person in charge of these >> documents was most likely a Party member destroying evidence. Had the >> Czechs found a Chronic in a village where names were recorded who held >> offices during the Hitler regime, the executions would have hit even >> more ferociously. So don't place too much hope on finding these. You >> will be luckiest with those villages closest to the Bavarian Border, >> because the people hightailed out of there in a hurry, taking the entire >> village archives along - like the people of Eger, for instance - and in >> most cases the US occupational Forces provided their transportation. >> The records of the Berni Rula will show all your ancestors that were >> propertied it 1651. >> If your ancestor came from the Budweis and Pilsen area it just might >> be a little different than the situation in the Egerland because there >> is a different historical background. The Egerland was not Bohemia >> originally, it was part of the Oberpfalz, and that was and still is to >> this day: Bavaria. >> How to locate the Egerland correctl, that I will put into a different >> Email. >> Aida >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven and Susan Karides" >> <karides@sbcglobal.net> >> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:45 PM >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer >> >> >>> >>> On May 15, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: >>> >>> A "Bauer" is farmer with a full spread, "Häusler" is most likely a >>> craftsman operating a smaller farm, "Gardener" is employed elsewhere >>> and just grows his vegetables and raises small animals around the >>> house he owns, and a "Hausbesitzer" is a Burgher in a town, a free man >>> >>> >>>> The definition of a "Haeusler" in William E. Wrights "Serf, Seigneur >>>> and Sovereign..Agararian Reform in Eighteenth-Century Bohemia" is >>>> summed up in his passage(p 17): " Further peasant ranks included >>>> cotters (Haeusler) and servants or day laborers (Inleute). These >>>> usually held no land other than gardens adjacent to their houses. >>>> They supported themselves and their families by working for their >>>> wages or payment in kind. Their obligations to the lord were usually >>>> considerably fewer than those of the land- holding peasants." I had >>>> always construed that to mean that they did now own any land, >>>> including the house in which they lived. Is that correct? I have lots >>>> of Haeuslers in the 1700s and early 1800s. Thanks for all your >>>> knowledge that you so unselfishly share! >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> >>> >>>> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>>> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >>>> list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// >>>> archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>> Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? >>> Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >> list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// >> archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >> > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >

wow...you are a wealth of info Aida - I'm saving all your emails :-) .. never know when it may hit a connection with some of my surnames!! Pam ~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ Warrenton, MO http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com Looking for surnames of BANGERT, CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, DIESEL, DILLON, FIELDS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, GOLD, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, KRAFT, MEES/MAES, MENTEL, MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), MITCHELL, PROBST, RAPP, REIS, SCHALLOM, SCHELLHORN, STALEY, STEPPIG, THOELE, WEBER ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aida Kraus" <akibb1@verizon.net> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:02 AM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer You sure are a bona fide old time Egerlander according to your ancestral names and these cannot be traced back because they were there ALL THE TIME! I might even know your Karlsbader Theisingers, or at least my parents did with certainty. Re.Chronik.... yes some of it you can abstract in the general form from the Kreis Chronik, but you will have to go to the Village itself to find the individuals that lived there. Many times they are revealed as village elders (and with your Egerlander names I am quite sure you will find them there) . And I am also sure that you will find most all of them in the Berni Rula, just as I did, which is an alphabetical listing, but be very "creative" as to spelling! It can be requested on an interlibrary loan and if you scroll back a few days you will find my posting of its source. It is good to copy and paste all these information on into a "research folder" ... you never know when you will need them. Aida Theisinger: Cuno von Theising is recorded 1295 at Salzburg, another branch called Theisinger were in Bohemia and Bavaria. There is also a village in the Egerland called Theusing. Götz: you can hardly get more Egerländerisch than this!!! The best pastry shop in Karlsbad was Götzl (a smaller version of Götz= Gottfried), also listed as Goczel at Prague and Breslau in 1389. Kühnl: "kühn" means brave. Written as Kühndl at Iglau in 1391, spelled Kiendl in Austria, Kühnl in Unterfranken, Bavaria Mühlhans, Meyer are too generell for all of Germany and therefore very hard to place! Guetter may be Allemanni(different German tribe from Marcomanni to the East) written as Güder in Switzerland where it means "spendthrift" or "wastrel" shows up in 1278 at Pullendorf and 1438 at Heidelberg. Brandl and Brandt comes from Hildebrandt (legendary figure) who was the swordmaker (weapon-smith) for Dietrich v. Bern, read the Nibelungen Lied! Elevated status W. (?) de Brant 1280 at Zürich, 1289 at Württemberg, Brant Klobelauch 1493 at Frankfurt, Sebastian Brant, poet, 1500. I went to school with 2 Brandls at Karlsbad . Knoebl: probably from either Saxon or Bavarian area where they show as Knöfel. In old high German it is written as "Knöufel" and means "Knopf" which is a button. A button maker most likely. Shows up in 1549 at Leipzig, just North of the Egerland beyond the Ore Mountains. ------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven and Susan Karides" <karides@sbcglobal.net> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer > Thank you, Aida for all your valuable information. I've, in fact been to > all of my ancestral villages (not much remaining, there!), have > Heimatbuecher for the villages and am still in contact and frequently > visit my dad's cousins who went from the Egerland to Bavaria at the time > of the expulsion. I've got my research rather far back on my main surname > lines, but because I was under the incorrect assumption that they were > not landowners, never endeavored to research the Berni Rula (will have to > check the archives to find out how!), although have read what I think you > refer to as the Chronik (am I correct to think of that as the Chronik of > the Kreis such as that one I have "Falkenau, Stadt und Land"? I've just > always been told by the "oldtimers" in the family in Bavaria (some who > are involved in the Heimatstuben) that my names (main ones are Muehlhans > and Theisinger) are very old Egerlaender names that "go way back" (no > one can ever tell me how far back, though!). So, perhaps a new direction > for research I thought I had finished a long time ago!! Thanks. again, > for all your insight. You help a great number of people. > > Since I have not posted my surnames for ages, I will list the main ones: > MUEHLHANS/GOETZ/THEISINGER/KNOEBL/KUEHNL/BRANDL/MAYER/GUETTER/ ERTL all in > Kreis Falkenau a.d. Eger (Theisinger relocated to Karlsbad in 1920s). > Susan > On May 17, 2006, at 6:33 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > >> >> All the above titles means that they are property owners in the >> Egerland. Perhaps individual nobles had different types of serfs for >> whom they provided a living space, but that would be for the minority of >> the Egerland population. So we should not assume that our ancestors >> were "serfs" but most likely did certain tasks in lieu of paying taxes. >> I have never encountered this in my own ancestral search, as they are >> all listed in the Berni Rula as property owners. And they appear in >> the Berni rula with the various description or titles of Owner, Farmer, >> Cottager and Gardener. >> If you walked through a village in Bohemia, you would see that there >> are as many different sized properties, as you'll find anywhere. The >> only difference is that the farms are all clustered together into a >> village and their fields are on the periphery. A farm that stood by >> itself was usually a "Gut" or a "Hof" and had larger and more buildings, >> they are very old land holdings. >> Now here is what I know from researching my own ancestors and at >> first, my opinion of Häusler and Gardener was just like yours, until I >> found out that they were actually owners of these places and had to pay >> taxes. I have several original documents and one ancestor is listed as >> Bürger und Schuhmacher (burgher and shoemaker) at Petschau and they >> owned that house and a large garden. There was a castle at Petschau, and >> I believe that the Beauforts lived there. If anyone offspring of these >> Nobles reads this, please enlighted us about the status of the common >> population! >> There is a Bürger und Uhrmacher (burgher and watchmaker) at the town >> of Marienbad in my family, and while he himself at the time of his >> marriage is not listed as Hausbesitzer (Owner), his father owned 3 >> hotels. There is one Wundarzt (surgeon) at Donawitz and there is no >> listing that he was either a Burgher or Owner. There is a Häusler" >> (cottager) at Neumetternich near Marienbad who owned his place and >> married a "Bauerntochter" (farmer's daughter) from Dürrmaul, they owned >> a very substantial Tudor "cottage" until they were expelled. There is a >> "Hausbesitzer" at Schönthal (which was a large village) who owned a >> "Hof" (large farm) where the family lived until expellation. They were >> original settlers and mentioned in the Chronic and the Berni Rula. >> There are several other family members who lived in the Egerland and >> were given the title "Häusler," but all these were well built stone or >> brick houses with basement and 2 stories... and were still in the family >> when they were expelled. >> What we have to do here is to pay attention to the area where they >> lived and who administered the area. We have to search and ask: was the >> land they lived on belonging to a cloister, a noble, a landholding of a >> nearby City, or very old settlers property. The latter can lead far >> back, probably to 1100-1300, for which there may be no records. The >> Catholic Church appears in the 12th century, but somewhat earlier in the >> Prag and Budweis areas. It would be best to get in touch with the >> expelled people, who maintain "Heimatstuben" in Germany and request a >> name list of early settlers of that particular village from their >> Chronic. Most of the original record keepers have passed on, but there >> are contact people for the individual villages. Go to a German >> website.....and www.yahoo.de is a good one, put the German name of your >> ancestor's village in the URL and see what comes up. Some of them are >> better than others. I presume that you have checked the Rootsweb first! >> Do not be too optimistic to get at any of the Chronics! >> Unfortunately, I must warn you here, that some of these irreplaceable >> records found their end buried in manure piles because of names recorded >> there during the Nazi occupation. The person in charge of these >> documents was most likely a Party member destroying evidence. Had the >> Czechs found a Chronic in a village where names were recorded who held >> offices during the Hitler regime, the executions would have hit even >> more ferociously. So don't place too much hope on finding these. You >> will be luckiest with those villages closest to the Bavarian Border, >> because the people hightailed out of there in a hurry, taking the entire >> village archives along - like the people of Eger, for instance - and in >> most cases the US occupational Forces provided their transportation. >> The records of the Berni Rula will show all your ancestors that were >> propertied it 1651. >> If your ancestor came from the Budweis and Pilsen area it just might >> be a little different than the situation in the Egerland because there >> is a different historical background. The Egerland was not Bohemia >> originally, it was part of the Oberpfalz, and that was and still is to >> this day: Bavaria. >> How to locate the Egerland correctl, that I will put into a different >> Email. >> Aida >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven and Susan Karides" >> <karides@sbcglobal.net> >> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:45 PM >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer >> >> >>> >>> On May 15, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: >>> >>> A "Bauer" is farmer with a full spread, "Häusler" is most likely a >>> craftsman operating a smaller farm, "Gardener" is employed elsewhere >>> and just grows his vegetables and raises small animals around the >>> house he owns, and a "Hausbesitzer" is a Burgher in a town, a free man >>> >>> >>>> The definition of a "Haeusler" in William E. Wrights "Serf, Seigneur >>>> and Sovereign..Agararian Reform in Eighteenth-Century Bohemia" is >>>> summed up in his passage(p 17): " Further peasant ranks included >>>> cotters (Haeusler) and servants or day laborers (Inleute). These >>>> usually held no land other than gardens adjacent to their houses. >>>> They supported themselves and their families by working for their >>>> wages or payment in kind. Their obligations to the lord were usually >>>> considerably fewer than those of the land- holding peasants." I had >>>> always construed that to mean that they did now own any land, >>>> including the house in which they lived. Is that correct? I have lots >>>> of Haeuslers in the 1700s and early 1800s. Thanks for all your >>>> knowledge that you so unselfishly share! >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> >>> >>>> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>>> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >>>> list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// >>>> archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>> Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? >>> Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >> list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// >> archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >> > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the list? To browse the archives, go to: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/

Wow, thank you! I didn't have any info on the meaning of my surnames. An interesting story on the Muehlhans name, however. Some years ago (about 10) I wrote to every Muehlhans listed in the German White Pages. Owing to the fact that many were related to eachother, I received a response from virtually every family I wrote to!! All stemmed from the Egerland. As I recall, all stemmed from Kreis Falkenau. A couple of them told me that Muehlhans was an Egerlaender name and, in their opinion, anyone with that surname has his roots in the Egerland. It is an extremely rare name in the US (some changed it to Milhans) and isn't even that common in Germany. They were all from the Golddorf/Steinhof/Maria Kulm area. As for my Karlsbader Theisingers, my grandmother was Marie Theisinger ( b. 1898/ to America (Milwaukee) in 1921/d.1943 before I was born). She was born at Ebmeth No. 28, but the family relocated to Karlsbad. My grandmother trained as a cook in Karlsbad. Her father was Andreas Theisinger (b. 1870 @ Schoenbrunn No. 24; died @ Fischern, by Karlsbad after WWI in 1918) and her mother was Emilie Knobl Theisinger (b. 1870 @ Ebmeth No. 1/died 1943 @ Welchau). Emilie Knobl's family had the Gastwirtschaft Knobl at Ebmeth No. 1. I have a picture of it, but was at the exact site and now it's just an asphalt parking lot to a Communist era tenement. My grandmotehr was the only Theisinger of her fanily to emigrate; The rest remained and suffered the expulsion. The all relocated to Bavaria (most stayed there; some later moved to other parts of Germany). My grandmother, Marie, had a sister Anna Theisinger Beitlich (b. 1906 @ Ebmeth/died 1988 @ Munich and her husband Emil who lived until 1996!) and brothers Anton Theisinger (b. 1903 @ Ebmeth/died single @ Nuenburg in 1980) and Josef Theisinger (b. 1895 at Frohnau/ married to Julia/died @ Marburg, Hessen in 1970). Josef and Julia had a son, Kurt Theisinger, born in the 1920s (my dad's first cousin). Kurt lived in Marktredwitz (lovely town!) and was very active in the Heimat Museum there until his death in 2000. I have heard the dialect spoken and don 't understand a word of it! Anyone sound familiar? Oh, by the way. Since the 1990s, I believe, there is a restaurant in Karlsbad called the Egerlaender Hof. It is run by the Kraus family. We visited there as a large group (my dad and his cousins including his mother's sisters children, as well as Kurt Theisinger) in 1997; again in 1999 and just last August. They have large books that they have former residents of the Egerland and their families sign, including a short memory and where the family had lived. They only brought them out when Kurt asked for them. There were several books full of memories, names and places and they even let the "Egerlaender aus Amerika" sign them!! Kurt spoke of the homeland often; the others not so much, because, I believe for them the memories are painful. So, I don't push it anymore and take whatever info they want to give me; little bits here and there. I do love visiting them, though. I am always astonished at how much we look like each other! I had never met my grandmother, but they look like her and I look like them. Genetics are amazing! So, once again thank you for your detailed tips and knowledge. I learn from every one of your postings! Susan On May 18, 2006, at 12:02 AM, Aida Kraus wrote: > You sure are a bona fide old time Egerlander according to your > ancestral names and these cannot be traced back because they were > there ALL THE TIME! I might even know your Karlsbader Theisingers, > or at least my parents did with certainty. > Re.Chronik.... yes some of it you can abstract in the general > form from the Kreis Chronik, but you will have to go to the Village > itself to find the individuals that lived there. Many times they > are revealed as village elders (and with your Egerlander names I am > quite sure you will find them there) . And I am also sure that you > will find most all of them in the Berni Rula, just as I did, which > is an alphabetical listing, but be very "creative" as to spelling! > It can be requested on an interlibrary loan and if you scroll back > a few days you will find my posting of its source. It is good to > copy and paste all these information on into a "research > folder" ... you never know when you will need them. > Aida > > Theisinger: Cuno von Theising is recorded 1295 at Salzburg, > another branch called Theisinger were in Bohemia and Bavaria. > There is also a village in the Egerland called Theusing. > Götz: you can hardly get more Egerländerisch than this!!! The > best pastry shop in Karlsbad was Götzl (a smaller version of Götz= > Gottfried), also listed as Goczel at Prague and Breslau in 1389. > Kühnl: "kühn" means brave. Written as Kühndl at Iglau in 1391, > spelled Kiendl in Austria, Kühnl in Unterfranken, Bavaria > Mühlhans, Meyer are too generell for all of Germany and therefore > very hard to place! > Guetter may be Allemanni(different German tribe from Marcomanni to > the East) written as Güder in Switzerland where it means > "spendthrift" or "wastrel" shows up in 1278 at Pullendorf and 1438 > at Heidelberg. > Brandl and Brandt comes from Hildebrandt (legendary figure) who was > the swordmaker (weapon-smith) for Dietrich v. Bern, read the > Nibelungen Lied! Elevated status W. (?) de Brant 1280 at Zürich, > 1289 at Württemberg, Brant Klobelauch 1493 at Frankfurt, Sebastian > Brant, poet, 1500. I went to school with 2 Brandls at Karlsbad . > Knoebl: probably from either Saxon or Bavarian area where they > show as Knöfel. In old high German it is written as "Knöufel" and > means "Knopf" which is a button. A button maker most likely. Shows > up in 1549 at Leipzig, just North of the Egerland beyond the Ore > Mountains. > > > > ------------------------------------- > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven and Susan Karides" > <karides@sbcglobal.net> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:58 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner- > Häusler-Hausbesitzer > > >> Thank you, Aida for all your valuable information. I've, in fact >> been to all of my ancestral villages (not much remaining, >> there!), have Heimatbuecher for the villages and am still in >> contact and frequently visit my dad's cousins who went from the >> Egerland to Bavaria at the time of the expulsion. I've got my >> research rather far back on my main surname lines, but because I >> was under the incorrect assumption that they were not landowners, >> never endeavored to research the Berni Rula (will have to check >> the archives to find out how!), although have read what I think >> you refer to as the Chronik (am I correct to think of that as the >> Chronik of the Kreis such as that one I have "Falkenau, Stadt und >> Land"? I've just always been told by the "oldtimers" in the >> family in Bavaria (some who are involved in the Heimatstuben) >> that my names (main ones are Muehlhans and Theisinger) are very >> old Egerlaender names that "go way back" (no one can ever tell me >> how far back, though!). So, perhaps a new direction for research >> I thought I had finished a long time ago!! Thanks. again, for >> all your insight. You help a great number of people. >> >> Since I have not posted my surnames for ages, I will list the >> main ones: MUEHLHANS/GOETZ/THEISINGER/KNOEBL/KUEHNL/BRANDL/MAYER/ >> GUETTER/ ERTL all in Kreis Falkenau a.d. Eger (Theisinger >> relocated to Karlsbad in 1920s). >> Susan >> On May 17, 2006, at 6:33 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: >> >>> >>> All the above titles means that they are property owners in the >>> Egerland. Perhaps individual nobles had different types of serfs >>> for whom they provided a living space, but that would be for the >>> minority of the Egerland population. So we should not assume >>> that our ancestors were "serfs" but most likely did certain >>> tasks in lieu of paying taxes. I have never encountered this in >>> my own ancestral search, as they are all listed in the Berni >>> Rula as property owners. And they appear in the Berni rula >>> with the various description or titles of Owner, Farmer, >>> Cottager and Gardener. >>> If you walked through a village in Bohemia, you would see >>> that there are as many different sized properties, as you'll >>> find anywhere. The only difference is that the farms are all >>> clustered together into a village and their fields are on the >>> periphery. A farm that stood by itself was usually a "Gut" or a >>> "Hof" and had larger and more buildings, they are very old land >>> holdings. >>> Now here is what I know from researching my own ancestors >>> and at first, my opinion of Häusler and Gardener was just like >>> yours, until I found out that they were actually owners of these >>> places and had to pay taxes. I have several original documents >>> and one ancestor is listed as Bürger und Schuhmacher (burgher >>> and shoemaker) at Petschau and they owned that house and a >>> large garden. There was a castle at Petschau, and I believe that >>> the Beauforts lived there. If anyone offspring of these Nobles >>> reads this, please enlighted us about the status of the common >>> population! >>> There is a Bürger und Uhrmacher (burgher and watchmaker) at >>> the town of Marienbad in my family, and while he himself at the >>> time of his marriage is not listed as Hausbesitzer (Owner), his >>> father owned 3 hotels. There is one Wundarzt (surgeon) at >>> Donawitz and there is no listing that he was either a Burgher or >>> Owner. There is a Häusler" (cottager) at Neumetternich near >>> Marienbad who owned his place and married a >>> "Bauerntochter" (farmer's daughter) from Dürrmaul, they owned a >>> very substantial Tudor "cottage" until they were expelled. >>> There is a "Hausbesitzer" at Schönthal (which was a large >>> village) who owned a "Hof" (large farm) where the family lived >>> until expellation. They were original settlers and mentioned in >>> the Chronic and the Berni Rula. There are several other family >>> members who lived in the Egerland and were given the title >>> "Häusler," but all these were well built stone or brick houses >>> with basement and 2 stories... and were still in the family when >>> they were expelled. >>> What we have to do here is to pay attention to the area >>> where they lived and who administered the area. We have to >>> search and ask: was the land they lived on belonging to a >>> cloister, a noble, a landholding of a nearby City, or very old >>> settlers property. The latter can lead far back, probably to >>> 1100-1300, for which there may be no records. The Catholic >>> Church appears in the 12th century, but somewhat earlier in the >>> Prag and Budweis areas. It would be best to get in touch with >>> the expelled people, who maintain "Heimatstuben" in Germany and >>> request a name list of early settlers of that particular village >>> from their Chronic. Most of the original record keepers have >>> passed on, but there are contact people for the individual >>> villages. Go to a German website.....and www.yahoo.de is a good >>> one, put the German name of your ancestor's village in the URL >>> and see what comes up. Some of them are better than others. I >>> presume that you have checked the Rootsweb first! >>> Do not be too optimistic to get at any of the Chronics! >>> Unfortunately, I must warn you here, that some of these >>> irreplaceable records found their end buried in manure piles >>> because of names recorded there during the Nazi occupation. The >>> person in charge of these documents was most likely a Party >>> member destroying evidence. Had the Czechs found a Chronic in a >>> village where names were recorded who held offices during the >>> Hitler regime, the executions would have hit even more >>> ferociously. So don't place too much hope on finding these. You >>> will be luckiest with those villages closest to the Bavarian >>> Border, because the people hightailed out of there in a hurry, >>> taking the entire village archives along - like the people of >>> Eger, for instance - and in most cases the US occupational >>> Forces provided their transportation. >>> The records of the Berni Rula will show all your ancestors >>> that were propertied it 1651. >>> If your ancestor came from the Budweis and Pilsen area it >>> just might be a little different than the situation in the >>> Egerland because there is a different historical background. >>> The Egerland was not Bohemia originally, it was part of the >>> Oberpfalz, and that was and still is to this day: Bavaria. >>> How to locate the Egerland correctl, that I will put into a >>> different Email. >>> Aida >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven and Susan Karides" >>> <karides@sbcglobal.net> >>> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:45 PM >>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer >>> >>> >>>> >>>> On May 15, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: >>>> >>>> A "Bauer" is farmer with a full spread, "Häusler" is most >>>> likely a craftsman operating a smaller farm, "Gardener" is >>>> employed elsewhere and just grows his vegetables and raises >>>> small animals around the house he owns, and a "Hausbesitzer" >>>> is a Burgher in a town, a free man >>>> >>>> >>>>> The definition of a "Haeusler" in William E. Wrights "Serf, >>>>> Seigneur and Sovereign..Agararian Reform in Eighteenth- >>>>> Century Bohemia" is summed up in his passage(p 17): " >>>>> Further peasant ranks included cotters (Haeusler) and >>>>> servants or day laborers (Inleute). These usually held no >>>>> land other than gardens adjacent to their houses. They >>>>> supported themselves and their families by working for their >>>>> wages or payment in kind. Their obligations to the lord were >>>>> usually considerably fewer than those of the land- holding >>>>> peasants." I had always construed that to mean that they did >>>>> now own any land, including the house in which they lived. Is >>>>> that correct? I have lots of Haeuslers in the 1700s and early >>>>> 1800s. Thanks for all your knowledge that you so unselfishly >>>>> share! >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>>>> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you >>>>> joined the list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// >>>>> archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>>> Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? >>>> Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >>> >>> >>> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you >>> joined the list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// >>> archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >>> >> >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined > the list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// > archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >