Hello, Christof.  It is good to hear from you.  Thank you for all this information about the Lowenstein holdings in the 1700s.  I had been finding his name on the records from Celiv that I have been researching on-line, hunting for KAHABKAs and KUNZLs.  I like to find out about the history that determines what the ancestors were doing in their lives. I was wondering if checking the Estate records would be worthwhile, but it sounds not, as the Celiv records do go back to the 1600s.  I have been trying to figure out what other records to have Jacob search, and had been thinking about the Estate records as one source.  So far, I haven't been able to connect the early KAHABKAs in the Celiv Matriky to any of my GT-Grandmother's ancestors, but haven't finished sorting out the records. Thank you so much for ALL your help.  Since I don't speak or read German, being second generation USA (Napa Valley, CA) born, I really appreciate your translations of information you've found.  Wish I could return the favor and help you on something.  There sure are a lot of WAGNERs as you said.  Thanks again.  Best regards,  Marg --- On Tue, 4/6/10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: From: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Origin of Kahabka surname To: [email protected] Date: Tuesday, April 6, 2010, 1:42 AM Hi Marg, the count of Loewenstein bought the estate on November 7th, 1712. The contract is available at the Lowenstein Archiv in Stuttgart under the number R-Lit. A Nr. 303. Look for the title "Ankauf der böhmischen Herrschaften Weseritz, Skupsch, Schwamberg, Guttenstein, Zebau, Haid und Pernatitz" at https://www2.landesarchiv-bw.de/ofs21/olf/struktur.php?bestand=15599&klassi=009&anzeigeKlassi=009.003. The count bought the following villages: "Item Ein Marckfleck Leskau: Zehnn Dörffer, HohenJamnÿ, Kschkam, Böhmisch-Domaschlag, Millikau, Kokaschitz, Lam, UnterJamnÿ, Kutsch, Schwitz und Schirnitz" If have ordered a paper copy from that contract. There are a  lot of Lowenstein documents at the archiv for Bohemia but only the titles are listed and finding names for genalogical reasons is unlikely. And even if you find one, the handwriting if mostly terrible. The priests really did there best for a readable handwriting. Another interesting document is the statistic from Lowenstein: "Summarische Beschreibung der löwenstein-wertheim-rochefortschen Herrschaften in Böhmen (Haid, Pernartitz, Weseritz, Schwanberg, Zebau und Guttenstein)" von Kammerassessor Friedrich Ludwig Ferdinand Lips. Archive number R-NL 15 Nr. 713, see https://www2.landesarchiv-bw.de/ofs21/olf/struktur.php?bestand=16205&klassi=005.002.007&anzeigeKlassi=005.002.004. I have a copy of this document also, it doesn't have a date but should be around 1770 or earlier. The original contract unreadable for me, but later a clean copy with good handwriting was created. As count  Loewensteiner bought the estate in 1712, you probably won't find any additional genalogical information there as the church records cover that time well. I have asked Jacub to look for an Urbar or any other information (tax-lists, contracts..) that could give me additional information on my own line in that area. I can keep you informed about what happens. Regards, Christof -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Marg McEuen Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 9:19 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Origin of Kahabka surname Hi, Aida.  Yes, I've been watching the house numbers when they have been given and putting families together that way.  I'm putting them into Roots Magic to see if I can connect the families.  I'm running into trouble when the house numbers are not given, as in the earlier records, especially with so many similar first names.  They all seem to have been Catholic as far back as I've found records.  One line of KHABAKAs were all carpenters too, but I haven't been able to connect them yet.  My line were mostly farmers or cottagers.  A lot of the earlier (mid 1700s and back) records say either "Principi  de Lowenstein" or "Subditi  Comitis de Zinsendorff".  I have been trying to find out more about these as I think they are Estates in the former feudal system that lasted over half of the 1700s.  Do you know where I could find out more about these Estates?  I have been looking on-line, but so far I haven't found out much.  Are there Estate records or any land records that could be checked?  Would the Berni Rula show anything for peasants if it were checked to see if the KAHABKA name shows up in any of the villages where they might have been earlier than the records from Celiv?  I really appreciate your help as you have so much knowledge about the records.  Marg --- On Mon, 4/5/10, Aida Kraus <[email protected]> wrote: From: Aida Kraus <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Origin of Kahabka surname To: [email protected] Date: Monday, April 5, 2010, 11:07 AM Dear Marg, pay attention to house numbers if they are given in these records.  Often I had difficulties matching family members, but the  same house numbers were finally the key to the family structure.  Also pay attention to where they were born and died, and what they recorded in the marriage records. The reoccurring house number will give you the clue who belongs to whom.   Often you do not need to understand or read the words, but the dates, names, location and house numbers are often enough to make the families mesh.  I found it of valuable help to take a register and sketch out the birth, marriage and death registers under the same name by house number, because most of our families in Bohemia lived for several generations in the same house.  They did not move as much in a generation as we are doing now, because then the family unit was strongly bound together by the need of making a living from their residence, be it either as a farm or a craft, especially if they were of the Catholic faith.    You are well on the way and the location of records in the various churches of the vicinity will give you the years of where you should search.    Good luck! Aida On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 9:32 AM, Marg McEuen <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks, Aida. > > I have had the mentioned records searched and my Gt-Grandmother, (Theresia > KAHABKA, b. 1839 in Domaslav) and her ancesters found back to Laurenz > (Anton, b. 1808 in Millikau, Martin, b. abt. 1772 possibly in Setlaw, > Laurenz  who may have been from Setzlaw from a birth record of one of my > gt-grandmother's uncles, another child of Martin).  Theresia's  grandfather, > Martin's, birth record was not found though his father was recorded as > Laurenz from Setzlaw and his mother as Katharina from Zebau on another of > Martin's children's birth records.   That child was a brother of Anton, > Theresia's father. > > Neither of us has found Martin's birth record for around 1773.  Martin > married Anna Maria Ziegler from Wolfersdorf  (Olbranov) around 1797 (record > ot found either) and they had their first child found in the records at > Millikau, just NW of Domaslov in Nov 1798. Their wedding record hasn't been > found yet, though I am now trying to sort out the Zieglers in Wolfersdorf > and >  surrounding area in the Horni Kozolupy records. > > Before that, I checked the Celiv Records which do go back to some of the > 1600s. I have found the Kahabka/Kahapka name back to the mid 1600s.  I need > to recheck some of them as you say, they are very hard to read.  And it is > frustrating that so many records were lost in various wars, especially the > 30 years war, but that also happened in many places. > > I have been curious about the name for many years and have been hoping to > find out more about it.  All of my grandmother's other ancestor's names are > German sounding, except perhaps HABLA from Leskau, and all came from around > the Wezeritz - Domaschlag area - Leskau, Wolfersdorf, Pottin, Harlosee, > Saduba, (Grandmother born there), Wikau, Hinterkotten, and a few others. I, > too, have wondered if the KAHABKA name could be Slavic. > > I am very sorry that I never learned German, though my father spoke it. I > am second generation removed from Bohemia.  My grandmother passed away when > I was in >  High School at age 92, so I never asked her any questions about her life > in Bohemia.  She came to Napa, CA in 1886 at age 18 to help a cousin.  Her > parents, Franz KUNZL and Theresia KAHABKA came to KS from Saduba in 1887 and > then went to OK by 1898 where Franz died.  I found the KAHABKA surname on > her death certificate, also from Napa, CA from May 1914 about 30 years ago, > but have only been able to do research (or have it done) in Bohemia the last > two years, since I've been retired.   My Grandmother's only two brothers who > lived to adulthood came to KS and OK with their parents, but neither had any > descendants to question either.  So I am depending on the records to find > what I can and have been intensely working on this line for over 2 years now > and appreciate all the help you and the Bohemian-German Message Board give. > Marg McEuen German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message