Aida,I was born in the Boehmerwald and also grew up there. I left when I was 18 years old, You can tell by the dialect what area a person is from. The dialect in the north of Bohemia is quite different from the southern parts of the country. Just thought I put my 5 cents in. Happy New Year to all Susie In a message dated 1/3/2010 5:52:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, [email protected] writes: No I am not an expert on this, but we are talking two distinct languages, one a Germanic one the other a Slavic. They are easy to distinguish, while dialects, for instance, are not as quickly to recognize and to place, unless you are a linguist. Aida -------------------------------------------------- On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 3:22 PM, frank <[email protected]> wrote: > Aida: It is my understanding that there was a common language, but that the > spoken dialects were different, and one would know where the speaker was > from immediately. Much like modern Euro French and Canadian French. > > But you are the expert on this. True or not? > > Frank Heidl Slocum > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 6:08 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > > > > Indeed, Daniel, the German and Czech speech boundaries were used to > define > > the so called Sudetenland, and it was in 1938 that these ethnic groups > > separated. Prior to that, and all during the monarchy's rules for over > > 400 > > years, they were never separated. There is no doubt that the influence > of > > politics separated these people while they had a history of peaceful > > coexistence and dependence on one another. Actually, their cruel > > separation > > came with the influence of religion and political interest. Although > > German > > speaking pockets are found historically all through Bohemia, there were > > hardly any Czech speaking people in Western Bohemia before 1918, > > particularly in the area called " Egerland" which originally belonged to > > Bavaria. However, there were Slavic Sorbs (or Sorbo) within the East > > part > > of Germany, in the location from Lusatia to southern Berlin. Wherever > two > > speech boundaries meet, the languages there spoken become > interchangeable. > > You are finding the same here on the North American continent, for > > instance > > in Canada where French and English are adjoined, and Spanish and > English > > in the Southern States. > > Aida > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 1:46 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> Thank you Aida, > >> > >> > >> > >> It is wonderful that you share with all of us your vast knowledge of the > >> German - Bohemian history. > >> > >> My father family is full Bohemian, but when I talked to my Grandfather > >> years ago he seemed to > >> > >> believe there was not a real border between them. Both Grandparents > knew > >> how to speak both > >> > >> languages. > >> > >> > >> > >> As part of my mother's family, we have always thought of the Hughes > >> family > >> as from Wales. As I dug > >> > >> further in history, I have found that the Hughes family were German > >> family > >> who immigrated to Wales > >> > >> in the 11 to 12 century. They were a mining family who moved to new > >> sources in Wales, then on to > >> > >> Wisconsin in the late 1800's. > >> > >> > >> > >> Daniel Nechkash > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> > >> To: [email protected] > >> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 9:53:56 PM GMT -05:00 Colombia > >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > >> > >> I think I can provide some insight into the theory that they came with > >> glassworkers from Bohemia to Poland, but again, we have to go back to > >> history to trace the probable trail of your ancestors. Never forget > >> that the Austrian Hungarian Empire lasted over 400 years and > >> encompassed a huge area. This area was split into 9 countires after > >> WW1 (1918) and hence you find the original residents of Austria all of > >> a sudden in "other country". Austria Hungary was a multiethnical > >> country, something Europe is trying to achieve now, and outside forces > >> tore it apart when it was already in existence and a great military > >> threat to Great Britain. > >> Now we come to the glasswork theory. Bohemia also was a part of > >> Austria Hungary, and has very close ties to provinces of France, > >> namely Luxembourg (the Luxemburgers were Bohemian Kings) and > >> Alsace/Lorraine as well as part of Belgium. So... what do I see? I > >> see a trail.... and especially since the nobility is involved who were > >> the first to start up industries. Bohemia had huge glass and > >> porcelain manufacture, so had France. It is most likely that the > >> nobility took their best craftsmen with their retinue to other areas > >> of the Empire. > >> All you have to do is to search for historical maps on the > >> internet. Look at the old Austrian Hungarian map and then look where > >> your ancestors lived, and you will see that they were all within the > >> borders of the Empire. You'll find that the Austrian Hungarian > >> Monarchy encompassed within her original borders lands that are now > >> split away from the ancient motherland and were arbitrarily given to > >> Poland, Romania, Italy, and alsao entirely new countries were invented > >> in 1918 like Cechoslovakia and Yugoslavia at the Treaty of Trianon. > >> This was to appease the Slavic Nations who never had a homeland of > >> their own. Therefore, I am sure that the place you call "Poland" was > >> the Galicia of Austria Hungary. > >> This trail may explain your Kichard from France to the German > >> Glasswork areas of Bohemia, and from there to Poland. To bear this > >> out, I can assure you that I have French Names in my own family who > >> were Germans from French provinces and I found them even farther East > >> along the Danube, than yours. > >> Aida > >> > >> On 12/16/09, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > Hello again, > >> > > >> > Thank you, Aida and Frank, for responding to my question about > whether > >> my > >> > Kichard ancestors were of German origin. I'll follow-up on the > >> suggestions > >> > in your e-mails. > >> > > >> > I had previously heard from a German native that the Kichard name was > >> > likely not of German origin, but I had reason to believe otherwise, as > >> > I > >> > mention below. > >> > > >> > I still have Kichard family living in south-east Poland, and they > >> > believe > >> > they are of German heritage. > >> > > >> > The book, "Opis Powiatu Jasielskiego", a geographical gazetteer > >> published > >> > in Poland in 1908, describes the villages in that area of Poland. It > >> > states that my first Kichard ancestor, Jakub Kichard, arrived there > in > >> the > >> > late > >> > 1700's with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers to set-up and > >> > operate > >> a > >> > glass-works for a Polish nobleman who was building a church and > castle > >> > nearby. > >> > > >> > Archive records show that my Kichard ancestors lived in that village > >> > from > >> > that time up to 1945, almost 200 years, until the communist > government > >> > forced all of the residents to move from the village at that time. > >> > > >> > Elderly Kichard relatives who once lived in that village and were > among > >> > those forced to move out in 1945, still say that when they had lived > >> there, > >> > that when their young friends who also lived there were coming to > visit > >> > them, and were asked by their family where they were going, they would > >> > say,"to > >> > see the Germans". > >> > > >> > Thus, family history and the above says that Kichard is a "German" > >> > name. > >> > > >> > However, since my first Kichard ancestor arrived in that area of > Poland > >> > with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers, perhaps it is a Czech > name > >> that > >> > is derived from an earlier German name. > >> > > >> > Any of your comments and further suggestions on my Kichard search will > >> > be > >> > appreciated. > >> > > >> > Thank you all again. > >> > > >> > Andy > >> > Pittsburgh, PA > >> > > >> > > >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> > ------------------------------- > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> > without > >> the > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Yes, Susie you are right, but this discussion did not start with dialects of the same language at all, but with Czech and German as languages in ethnic areas of basically entirely two different language branches: Teutonic and Slavic. There are no "like words" in either of these language, but the Bohemians made up words for both of these languages for general understanding, and this funny language was somewhat like "Pidgin English" and was called "Kuchelpemisch"!!! because it had started in the kitchens. In other words "Kitchen Bohemian" which containe a lot of Viennese Yiddish and French words mixed into it. A sink was not a "Spüle" but a "Lawohr" (lavoir), and when you "schlepped" your things around they were your "Tschotschken" which is a typical conglomeration of Czech, German and Yiddish...... and many many more.... Yes, the Boehmerwald, where you came from, was a mix of Niederbayrisch and Austrian while our Egerländerisch is Bavarian Oberpfälzisch, a Frankish dialect. I am not quite sure where the language actually changed, I think it must have been around Bischofteinitz/Mies or thereabouts. The dialects are indeed different, but very understandable. And there is yet another dialect to the North of my hometown Karlsbad, and close to the Erzgebirge (Ore Mountain) because there they spoke Erzgebirglerisch which is almost Saxon, but not quite. In other words, for American people to understand this we would have to explain to them that it was like "as if each county had a different pronunciation for the same word" and some of them were as different as North American Yankee is to a Southern dialect. Some of the words changed entirely with the area in Germany. Like our hard rolls were "Semmeln" while in Germany they were "Brötchen".... and of course, there are linguistic parodies of misunderstandings galore! Aida ------------------------------------------ On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 4:03 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Aida,I was born in the Boehmerwald and also grew up there. I left when I > was 18 years old, You can tell by the dialect what area a person is from. > The dialect in the north of Bohemia is quite different from the southern > parts of the country. > Just thought I put my 5 cents in. > > Happy New Year to all > Susie > > > > > In a message dated 1/3/2010 5:52:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > No I am not an expert on this, but we are talking two distinct languages, > one a Germanic one the other a Slavic. They are easy to distinguish, > while > dialects, for instance, are not as quickly to recognize and to place, > unless you are a linguist. > Aida > > -------------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 3:22 PM, frank <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Aida: It is my understanding that there was a common language, but that > the > > spoken dialects were different, and one would know where the speaker was > > from immediately. Much like modern Euro French and Canadian French. > > > > But you are the expert on this. True or not? > > > > Frank Heidl Slocum > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> > > To: <[email protected]> > > Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 6:08 PM > > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > > > > > > > Indeed, Daniel, the German and Czech speech boundaries were used to > > define > > > the so called Sudetenland, and it was in 1938 that these ethnic groups > > > separated. Prior to that, and all during the monarchy's rules for > over > > > 400 > > > years, they were never separated. There is no doubt that the > influence > > of > > > politics separated these people while they had a history of peaceful > > > coexistence and dependence on one another. Actually, their cruel > > > separation > > > came with the influence of religion and political interest. Although > > > German > > > speaking pockets are found historically all through Bohemia, there > were > > > hardly any Czech speaking people in Western Bohemia before 1918, > > > particularly in the area called " Egerland" which originally belonged > to > > > Bavaria. However, there were Slavic Sorbs (or Sorbo) within the East > > > part > > > of Germany, in the location from Lusatia to southern Berlin. Wherever > > two > > > speech boundaries meet, the languages there spoken become > > interchangeable. > > > You are finding the same here on the North American continent, for > > > instance > > > in Canada where French and English are adjoined, and Spanish and > > English > > > in the Southern States. > > > Aida > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 1:46 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> Thank you Aida, > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> It is wonderful that you share with all of us your vast knowledge of > the > > >> German - Bohemian history. > > >> > > >> My father family is full Bohemian, but when I talked to my > Grandfather > > >> years ago he seemed to > > >> > > >> believe there was not a real border between them. Both Grandparents > > knew > > >> how to speak both > > >> > > >> languages. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> As part of my mother's family, we have always thought of the Hughes > > >> family > > >> as from Wales. As I dug > > >> > > >> further in history, I have found that the Hughes family were German > > >> family > > >> who immigrated to Wales > > >> > > >> in the 11 to 12 century. They were a mining family who moved to new > > >> sources in Wales, then on to > > >> > > >> Wisconsin in the late 1800's. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Daniel Nechkash > > >> > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> > > >> To: [email protected] > > >> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 9:53:56 PM GMT -05:00 Colombia > > >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > > >> > > >> I think I can provide some insight into the theory that they came > with > > >> glassworkers from Bohemia to Poland, but again, we have to go back > to > > >> history to trace the probable trail of your ancestors. Never forget > > >> that the Austrian Hungarian Empire lasted over 400 years and > > >> encompassed a huge area. This area was split into 9 countires after > > >> WW1 (1918) and hence you find the original residents of Austria all > of > > >> a sudden in "other country". Austria Hungary was a multiethnical > > >> country, something Europe is trying to achieve now, and outside > forces > > >> tore it apart when it was already in existence and a great military > > >> threat to Great Britain. > > >> Now we come to the glasswork theory. Bohemia also was a part of > > >> Austria Hungary, and has very close ties to provinces of France, > > >> namely Luxembourg (the Luxemburgers were Bohemian Kings) and > > >> Alsace/Lorraine as well as part of Belgium. So... what do I see? I > > >> see a trail.... and especially since the nobility is involved who > were > > >> the first to start up industries. Bohemia had huge glass and > > >> porcelain manufacture, so had France. It is most likely that the > > >> nobility took their best craftsmen with their retinue to other areas > > >> of the Empire. > > >> All you have to do is to search for historical maps on the > > >> internet. Look at the old Austrian Hungarian map and then look where > > >> your ancestors lived, and you will see that they were all within the > > >> borders of the Empire. You'll find that the Austrian Hungarian > > >> Monarchy encompassed within her original borders lands that are now > > >> split away from the ancient motherland and were arbitrarily given to > > >> Poland, Romania, Italy, and alsao entirely new countries were > invented > > >> in 1918 like Cechoslovakia and Yugoslavia at the Treaty of Trianon. > > >> This was to appease the Slavic Nations who never had a homeland of > > >> their own. Therefore, I am sure that the place you call "Poland" was > > >> the Galicia of Austria Hungary. > > >> This trail may explain your Kichard from France to the German > > >> Glasswork areas of Bohemia, and from there to Poland. To bear this > > >> out, I can assure you that I have French Names in my own family who > > >> were Germans from French provinces and I found them even farther > East > > >> along the Danube, than yours. > > >> Aida > > >> > > >> On 12/16/09, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > Hello again, > > >> > > > >> > Thank you, Aida and Frank, for responding to my question about > > whether > > >> my > > >> > Kichard ancestors were of German origin. I'll follow-up on the > > >> suggestions > > >> > in your e-mails. > > >> > > > >> > I had previously heard from a German native that the Kichard name > was > > >> > likely not of German origin, but I had reason to believe otherwise, > as > > >> > I > > >> > mention below. > > >> > > > >> > I still have Kichard family living in south-east Poland, and they > > >> > believe > > >> > they are of German heritage. > > >> > > > >> > The book, "Opis Powiatu Jasielskiego", a geographical gazetteer > > >> published > > >> > in Poland in 1908, describes the villages in that area of Poland. > It > > >> > states that my first Kichard ancestor, Jakub Kichard, arrived > there > > in > > >> the > > >> > late > > >> > 1700's with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers to set-up and > > >> > operate > > >> a > > >> > glass-works for a Polish nobleman who was building a church and > > castle > > >> > nearby. > > >> > > > >> > Archive records show that my Kichard ancestors lived in that > village > > >> > from > > >> > that time up to 1945, almost 200 years, until the communist > > government > > >> > forced all of the residents to move from the village at that time. > > >> > > > >> > Elderly Kichard relatives who once lived in that village and were > > among > > >> > those forced to move out in 1945, still say that when they had > lived > > >> there, > > >> > that when their young friends who also lived there were coming to > > visit > > >> > them, and were asked by their family where they were going, they > would > > >> > say,"to > > >> > see the Germans". > > >> > > > >> > Thus, family history and the above says that Kichard is a "German" > > >> > name. > > >> > > > >> > However, since my first Kichard ancestor arrived in that area of > > Poland > > >> > with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers, perhaps it is a Czech > > name > > >> that > > >> > is derived from an earlier German name. > > >> > > > >> > Any of your comments and further suggestions on my Kichard search > will > > >> > be > > >> > appreciated. > > >> > > > >> > Thank you all again. > > >> > > > >> > Andy > > >> > Pittsburgh, PA > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > >> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >> > ------------------------------- > > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> > without > > >> the > > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >> ------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >> ------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the > subject and the body of the message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >