Thank you Aida, Frank and Susie, Both of my grandparents grew up in Southern Wisconsin in strongly dominated German-Bohemian communities.  My father didn't learn English until his went to grade school, even to the day that he died in 2000, he still understood both languages.  There has been such a tight bond between these two groups over many centuries, it is too bad that two horrible war damage the relations between the two of them.  Let's hope that time will heal this issue. I hope the rest of the group learnt something from today's discussions.  I certainly did...... Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, January 3, 2010 6:30:51 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch Yes, Susie you are right, but this discussion did not start with dialects of the same language at all,  but with Czech and German as languages in ethnic areas of basically entirely two different language branches:  Teutonic and Slavic.  There are no "like words" in either of these language, but the Bohemians made up words for both of these languages for general understanding, and this funny language was somewhat like "Pidgin English" and was called "Kuchelpemisch"!!!   because it had started in the kitchens.  In other words "Kitchen Bohemian" which containe a lot of Viennese Yiddish and French words mixed into it.   A sink was not a "Spüle" but a "Lawohr" (lavoir), and when you "schlepped" your things around they were your "Tschotschken" which is a typical conglomeration of Czech, German and Yiddish...... and many many more....        Yes, the Boehmerwald, where you came from, was a mix of Niederbayrisch and Austrian while our Egerländerisch is Bavarian Oberpfälzisch, a Frankish dialect.  I am not quite sure where the language actually changed, I think it must have been around Bischofteinitz/Mies or thereabouts.  The dialects are indeed different, but very understandable.  And there is yet another dialect to the North of my hometown Karlsbad, and close to the Erzgebirge (Ore Mountain) because there they spoke Erzgebirglerisch which is almost Saxon, but not quite.  In other words, for American people to understand this we would have  to explain to them that it was like "as if each county had a different pronunciation for the same word" and some of them were as different as North American Yankee is to a Southern dialect. Some of the words changed entirely with the area in Germany. Like our hard rolls were "Semmeln" while in Germany they were "Brötchen".... and of course, there are linguistic parodies of misunderstandings galore!        Aida ------------------------------------------ On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 4:03 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Aida,I was born in the Boehmerwald and also grew up there. I left when I > was 18 years old, You can tell by the dialect what area a person is from. > The dialect in the north of Bohemia is quite different from the southern > parts of the country. > Just thought I put my 5 cents in. > > Happy New Year to all > Susie > > > > > In a message dated 1/3/2010 5:52:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > No I am  not an expert on this, but we are talking two distinct languages, > one a  Germanic one the other a Slavic.  They are easy to distinguish, > while > dialects, for instance,  are not as quickly to recognize and to  place, > unless you are a  linguist. > Aida > > -------------------------------------------------- > > On  Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 3:22 PM, frank <[email protected]>  wrote: > > > Aida: It is my understanding that there was a common  language, but that > the > > spoken dialects were different, and one would  know where the speaker was > > from immediately. Much like modern Euro  French and Canadian French. > > > > But you are the expert on this.  True or not? > > > > Frank Heidl Slocum > > > > ----- Original  Message ----- > > From: "Aida Kraus"  <[email protected]> > > To:  <[email protected]> > > Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010  6:08 PM > > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and  Prokosch > > > > > > > Indeed, Daniel, the German and Czech  speech boundaries were used to > > define > > > the so called  Sudetenland, and it was in 1938 that these ethnic groups > > >  separated.  Prior to that, and all during the monarchy's rules for > over > > > 400 > > > years, they were never separated.   There is no doubt that the > influence > > of > > > politics  separated these people while they had a history of peaceful > > >  coexistence and dependence on one another.  Actually, their cruel > >  > separation > > > came with the influence of religion and political  interest.  Although > > > German > > > speaking pockets are  found historically all through Bohemia, there > were > > > hardly any  Czech speaking people in Western Bohemia before 1918, > > >  particularly in the area called " Egerland" which originally belonged > to > > > Bavaria.   However, there were Slavic Sorbs (or  Sorbo) within the East > > > part > > > of Germany, in the  location from Lusatia to southern Berlin.  Wherever > > two > >  > speech boundaries meet, the languages there spoken become > >  interchangeable. > > > You are finding the same here on the North  American continent, for > > > instance > > > in Canada  where  French and English are adjoined,  and Spanish and > >  English > > > in the Southern States. > > > Aida > >  > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > >  > > > > On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 1:46 PM, <[email protected]>  wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> Thank  you Aida, > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>  It is wonderful that you share with all of us your vast knowledge of > the > > >> German - Bohemian history. > > >> > >  >> My father family is full Bohemian, but when I talked to my > Grandfather > > >> years ago he seemed to > > >> > >  >> believe there was not a real border between them.  Both  Grandparents > > knew > > >> how to speak both > >  >> > > >> languages. > > >> > > >> > >  >> > > >> As part of my mother's family, we have always  thought of the Hughes > > >> family > > >> as from  Wales.  As I dug > > >> > > >> further in history, I  have found that the Hughes family were German > > >> family > >  >> who immigrated to Wales > > >> > > >> in the 11  to 12 century.  They were a mining family who moved to new > >  >> sources in Wales, then on to > > >> > > >>  Wisconsin in the late 1800's. > > >> > > >> > >  >> > > >> Daniel Nechkash > > >> > >  >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From:  "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> > > >> To:  [email protected] > > >> Sent: Wednesday, December 16,  2009 9:53:56 PM GMT -05:00 Colombia > > >> Subject: Re:  [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > > >> > > >> I think  I can provide some insight into the theory that they came > with > >  >> glassworkers from Bohemia to Poland, but again, we have to go back >  to > > >> history to trace the probable trail of your  ancestors.  Never forget > > >> that the Austrian Hungarian  Empire lasted over 400 years and > > >> encompassed a huge  area.  This area was split into 9 countires after > > >> WW1  (1918) and hence you find the original residents of Austria all > of > >  >> a sudden in "other country".  Austria Hungary was a  multiethnical > > >> country, something Europe is trying to achieve  now, and outside > forces > > >> tore it apart when it was already in  existence and a great military > > >> threat to Great  Britain. > > >>      Now we come to the glasswork  theory.  Bohemia also was a part of > > >> Austria Hungary, and  has very close ties to provinces of France, > > >> namely Luxembourg  (the Luxemburgers were Bohemian Kings) and > > >> Alsace/Lorraine as  well as part of Belgium.  So... what do I see?  I > > >>  see a trail.... and especially since the nobility is involved who > were > >  >> the first to start up industries.  Bohemia had huge glass  and > > >> porcelain manufacture, so had France.  It is most  likely that the > > >> nobility took their best craftsmen with their  retinue to other areas > > >> of the Empire. > > >>   All you have to do is to search for historical maps on  the > > >> internet.  Look at the old Austrian Hungarian map  and then look where > > >> your ancestors lived, and you will see  that they were all within the > > >> borders of the Empire.   You'll find that the Austrian Hungarian > > >> Monarchy encompassed  within her original borders lands that are now > > >> split away  from the ancient motherland and were arbitrarily given to > > >>  Poland, Romania, Italy, and alsao entirely new countries were > invented > >  >> in 1918 like Cechoslovakia and Yugoslavia at the Treaty of  Trianon. > > >> This was to appease the Slavic Nations who never had  a homeland of > > >> their own.  Therefore, I am sure that the  place you call "Poland" was > > >> the Galicia of Austria  Hungary. > > >>     This trail may explain your  Kichard from France to the German > > >> Glasswork areas of Bohemia,  and from there to Poland.  To bear this > > >> out, I can  assure you that I have French Names in my own family who > > >> were  Germans from  French provinces and I found them even farther > East > >  >> along the Danube, than yours. > > >>       Aida > > >> > > >> On 12/16/09, [email protected]  <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > Hello again, > >  >> > > > >> > Thank you, Aida and Frank, for responding  to my  question about > > whether > > >> my > >  >> > Kichard ancestors were of German  origin.  I'll  follow-up on the > > >> suggestions > > >> > in your  e-mails. > > >> > > > >> > I had previously heard  from a German native that the Kichard name > was > > >> > likely  not of German origin, but I had reason to believe otherwise, > as > >  >> > I > > >> > mention below. > > >>  > > > >> > I still have Kichard family living in south-east  Poland, and they > > >> > believe > > >> > they are  of German heritage. > > >> > > > >> > The book,  "Opis Powiatu Jasielskiego", a geographical gazetteer > > >>   published > > >> > in Poland in 1908, describes the villages in  that area  of Poland. > It > > >> > states that my first  Kichard ancestor, Jakub  Kichard, arrived > there > > in > >  >> the > > >> > late > > >> > 1700's with  other "Germanized-Czech"  glass-workers to set-up and > > >>  > operate > > >> a > > >> > glass-works for a Polish  nobleman who  was building a church and > > castle > > >>  > nearby. > > >> > > > >> > Archive records show  that my Kichard ancestors lived in that > village > > >> >  from > > >> > that time up to 1945, almost 200 years, until the  communist > >  government > > >> > forced all of the  residents to move from the village at  that time. > > >>  > > > >> > Elderly Kichard relatives who once lived in that  village and were > > among > > >> > those forced to move out  in 1945, still say that when they had > lived > > >> there, > >  >> > that when their young friends who also lived there were coming  to > > visit > > >> > them, and were asked by their family  where they were going, they > would > > >> > say,"to > >  >> > see the Germans". > > >> > > > >> >  Thus, family history and the above says that Kichard is a "German" > >  >> > name. > > >> > > > >> > However, since  my first Kichard ancestor arrived in that area of > > Poland > >  >> > with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers, perhaps it is a  Czech > > name > > >> that > > >> > is   derived from an earlier German name. > > >> > > > >>  > Any of your comments and further suggestions on my Kichard search > will > > >> > be > > >> > appreciated. > >  >> > > > >> > Thank you all again. > > >>  > > > >> > Andy > > >> > Pittsburgh, PA > >  >> > > > >> > > > >> > German-Bohemian  Heritage 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