Aida: It is my understanding that there was a common language, but that the spoken dialects were different, and one would know where the speaker was from immediately. Much like modern Euro French and Canadian French. But you are the expert on this. True or not? Frank Heidl Slocum ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 6:08 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > Indeed, Daniel, the German and Czech speech boundaries were used to define > the so called Sudetenland, and it was in 1938 that these ethnic groups > separated. Prior to that, and all during the monarchy's rules for over > 400 > years, they were never separated. There is no doubt that the influence of > politics separated these people while they had a history of peaceful > coexistence and dependence on one another. Actually, their cruel > separation > came with the influence of religion and political interest. Although > German > speaking pockets are found historically all through Bohemia, there were > hardly any Czech speaking people in Western Bohemia before 1918, > particularly in the area called " Egerland" which originally belonged to > Bavaria. However, there were Slavic Sorbs (or Sorbo) within the East > part > of Germany, in the location from Lusatia to southern Berlin. Wherever two > speech boundaries meet, the languages there spoken become interchangeable. > You are finding the same here on the North American continent, for > instance > in Canada where French and English are adjoined, and Spanish and English > in the Southern States. > Aida > > ---------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 1:46 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> Thank you Aida, >> >> >> >> It is wonderful that you share with all of us your vast knowledge of the >> German - Bohemian history. >> >> My father family is full Bohemian, but when I talked to my Grandfather >> years ago he seemed to >> >> believe there was not a real border between them. Both Grandparents knew >> how to speak both >> >> languages. >> >> >> >> As part of my mother's family, we have always thought of the Hughes >> family >> as from Wales. As I dug >> >> further in history, I have found that the Hughes family were German >> family >> who immigrated to Wales >> >> in the 11 to 12 century. They were a mining family who moved to new >> sources in Wales, then on to >> >> Wisconsin in the late 1800's. >> >> >> >> Daniel Nechkash >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 9:53:56 PM GMT -05:00 Colombia >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch >> >> I think I can provide some insight into the theory that they came with >> glassworkers from Bohemia to Poland, but again, we have to go back to >> history to trace the probable trail of your ancestors. Never forget >> that the Austrian Hungarian Empire lasted over 400 years and >> encompassed a huge area. This area was split into 9 countires after >> WW1 (1918) and hence you find the original residents of Austria all of >> a sudden in "other country". Austria Hungary was a multiethnical >> country, something Europe is trying to achieve now, and outside forces >> tore it apart when it was already in existence and a great military >> threat to Great Britain. >> Now we come to the glasswork theory. Bohemia also was a part of >> Austria Hungary, and has very close ties to provinces of France, >> namely Luxembourg (the Luxemburgers were Bohemian Kings) and >> Alsace/Lorraine as well as part of Belgium. So... what do I see? I >> see a trail.... and especially since the nobility is involved who were >> the first to start up industries. Bohemia had huge glass and >> porcelain manufacture, so had France. It is most likely that the >> nobility took their best craftsmen with their retinue to other areas >> of the Empire. >> All you have to do is to search for historical maps on the >> internet. Look at the old Austrian Hungarian map and then look where >> your ancestors lived, and you will see that they were all within the >> borders of the Empire. You'll find that the Austrian Hungarian >> Monarchy encompassed within her original borders lands that are now >> split away from the ancient motherland and were arbitrarily given to >> Poland, Romania, Italy, and alsao entirely new countries were invented >> in 1918 like Cechoslovakia and Yugoslavia at the Treaty of Trianon. >> This was to appease the Slavic Nations who never had a homeland of >> their own. Therefore, I am sure that the place you call "Poland" was >> the Galicia of Austria Hungary. >> This trail may explain your Kichard from France to the German >> Glasswork areas of Bohemia, and from there to Poland. To bear this >> out, I can assure you that I have French Names in my own family who >> were Germans from French provinces and I found them even farther East >> along the Danube, than yours. >> Aida >> >> On 12/16/09, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: >> > Hello again, >> > >> > Thank you, Aida and Frank, for responding to my question about whether >> my >> > Kichard ancestors were of German origin. I'll follow-up on the >> suggestions >> > in your e-mails. >> > >> > I had previously heard from a German native that the Kichard name was >> > likely not of German origin, but I had reason to believe otherwise, as >> > I >> > mention below. >> > >> > I still have Kichard family living in south-east Poland, and they >> > believe >> > they are of German heritage. >> > >> > The book, "Opis Powiatu Jasielskiego", a geographical gazetteer >> published >> > in Poland in 1908, describes the villages in that area of Poland. It >> > states that my first Kichard ancestor, Jakub Kichard, arrived there in >> the >> > late >> > 1700's with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers to set-up and >> > operate >> a >> > glass-works for a Polish nobleman who was building a church and castle >> > nearby. >> > >> > Archive records show that my Kichard ancestors lived in that village >> > from >> > that time up to 1945, almost 200 years, until the communist government >> > forced all of the residents to move from the village at that time. >> > >> > Elderly Kichard relatives who once lived in that village and were among >> > those forced to move out in 1945, still say that when they had lived >> there, >> > that when their young friends who also lived there were coming to visit >> > them, and were asked by their family where they were going, they would >> > say,"to >> > see the Germans". >> > >> > Thus, family history and the above says that Kichard is a "German" >> > name. >> > >> > However, since my first Kichard ancestor arrived in that area of Poland >> > with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers, perhaps it is a Czech name >> that >> > is derived from an earlier German name. >> > >> > Any of your comments and further suggestions on my Kichard search will >> > be >> > appreciated. >> > >> > Thank you all again. >> > >> > Andy >> > Pittsburgh, PA >> > >> > >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > without >> the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

No I am not an expert on this, but we are talking two distinct languages, one a Germanic one the other a Slavic. They are easy to distinguish, while dialects, for instance, are not as quickly to recognize and to place, unless you are a linguist. Aida -------------------------------------------------- On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 3:22 PM, frank <[email protected]> wrote: > Aida: It is my understanding that there was a common language, but that the > spoken dialects were different, and one would know where the speaker was > from immediately. Much like modern Euro French and Canadian French. > > But you are the expert on this. True or not? > > Frank Heidl Slocum > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 6:08 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > > > > Indeed, Daniel, the German and Czech speech boundaries were used to > define > > the so called Sudetenland, and it was in 1938 that these ethnic groups > > separated. Prior to that, and all during the monarchy's rules for over > > 400 > > years, they were never separated. There is no doubt that the influence > of > > politics separated these people while they had a history of peaceful > > coexistence and dependence on one another. Actually, their cruel > > separation > > came with the influence of religion and political interest. Although > > German > > speaking pockets are found historically all through Bohemia, there were > > hardly any Czech speaking people in Western Bohemia before 1918, > > particularly in the area called " Egerland" which originally belonged to > > Bavaria. However, there were Slavic Sorbs (or Sorbo) within the East > > part > > of Germany, in the location from Lusatia to southern Berlin. Wherever > two > > speech boundaries meet, the languages there spoken become > interchangeable. > > You are finding the same here on the North American continent, for > > instance > > in Canada where French and English are adjoined, and Spanish and > English > > in the Southern States. > > Aida > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 1:46 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> Thank you Aida, > >> > >> > >> > >> It is wonderful that you share with all of us your vast knowledge of the > >> German - Bohemian history. > >> > >> My father family is full Bohemian, but when I talked to my Grandfather > >> years ago he seemed to > >> > >> believe there was not a real border between them. Both Grandparents > knew > >> how to speak both > >> > >> languages. > >> > >> > >> > >> As part of my mother's family, we have always thought of the Hughes > >> family > >> as from Wales. As I dug > >> > >> further in history, I have found that the Hughes family were German > >> family > >> who immigrated to Wales > >> > >> in the 11 to 12 century. They were a mining family who moved to new > >> sources in Wales, then on to > >> > >> Wisconsin in the late 1800's. > >> > >> > >> > >> Daniel Nechkash > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> > >> To: [email protected] > >> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 9:53:56 PM GMT -05:00 Colombia > >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > >> > >> I think I can provide some insight into the theory that they came with > >> glassworkers from Bohemia to Poland, but again, we have to go back to > >> history to trace the probable trail of your ancestors. Never forget > >> that the Austrian Hungarian Empire lasted over 400 years and > >> encompassed a huge area. This area was split into 9 countires after > >> WW1 (1918) and hence you find the original residents of Austria all of > >> a sudden in "other country". Austria Hungary was a multiethnical > >> country, something Europe is trying to achieve now, and outside forces > >> tore it apart when it was already in existence and a great military > >> threat to Great Britain. > >> Now we come to the glasswork theory. Bohemia also was a part of > >> Austria Hungary, and has very close ties to provinces of France, > >> namely Luxembourg (the Luxemburgers were Bohemian Kings) and > >> Alsace/Lorraine as well as part of Belgium. So... what do I see? I > >> see a trail.... and especially since the nobility is involved who were > >> the first to start up industries. Bohemia had huge glass and > >> porcelain manufacture, so had France. It is most likely that the > >> nobility took their best craftsmen with their retinue to other areas > >> of the Empire. > >> All you have to do is to search for historical maps on the > >> internet. Look at the old Austrian Hungarian map and then look where > >> your ancestors lived, and you will see that they were all within the > >> borders of the Empire. You'll find that the Austrian Hungarian > >> Monarchy encompassed within her original borders lands that are now > >> split away from the ancient motherland and were arbitrarily given to > >> Poland, Romania, Italy, and alsao entirely new countries were invented > >> in 1918 like Cechoslovakia and Yugoslavia at the Treaty of Trianon. > >> This was to appease the Slavic Nations who never had a homeland of > >> their own. Therefore, I am sure that the place you call "Poland" was > >> the Galicia of Austria Hungary. > >> This trail may explain your Kichard from France to the German > >> Glasswork areas of Bohemia, and from there to Poland. To bear this > >> out, I can assure you that I have French Names in my own family who > >> were Germans from French provinces and I found them even farther East > >> along the Danube, than yours. > >> Aida > >> > >> On 12/16/09, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > Hello again, > >> > > >> > Thank you, Aida and Frank, for responding to my question about > whether > >> my > >> > Kichard ancestors were of German origin. I'll follow-up on the > >> suggestions > >> > in your e-mails. > >> > > >> > I had previously heard from a German native that the Kichard name was > >> > likely not of German origin, but I had reason to believe otherwise, as > >> > I > >> > mention below. > >> > > >> > I still have Kichard family living in south-east Poland, and they > >> > believe > >> > they are of German heritage. > >> > > >> > The book, "Opis Powiatu Jasielskiego", a geographical gazetteer > >> published > >> > in Poland in 1908, describes the villages in that area of Poland. It > >> > states that my first Kichard ancestor, Jakub Kichard, arrived there > in > >> the > >> > late > >> > 1700's with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers to set-up and > >> > operate > >> a > >> > glass-works for a Polish nobleman who was building a church and > castle > >> > nearby. > >> > > >> > Archive records show that my Kichard ancestors lived in that village > >> > from > >> > that time up to 1945, almost 200 years, until the communist > government > >> > forced all of the residents to move from the village at that time. > >> > > >> > Elderly Kichard relatives who once lived in that village and were > among > >> > those forced to move out in 1945, still say that when they had lived > >> there, > >> > that when their young friends who also lived there were coming to > visit > >> > them, and were asked by their family where they were going, they would > >> > say,"to > >> > see the Germans". > >> > > >> > Thus, family history and the above says that Kichard is a "German" > >> > name. > >> > > >> > However, since my first Kichard ancestor arrived in that area of > Poland > >> > with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers, perhaps it is a Czech > name > >> that > >> > is derived from an earlier German name. > >> > > >> > Any of your comments and further suggestions on my Kichard search will > >> > be > >> > appreciated. > >> > > >> > Thank you all again. > >> > > >> > Andy > >> > Pittsburgh, PA > >> > > >> > > >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> > ------------------------------- > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> > without > >> the > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

The administrative language in more than 400 years of the Austrian Hungarian Monarchy was German. In 1866 Panslavistic Movements brought back their rights to "ethnicity" and then the Monarchy allowed a predominantly used ethnic language of a particular area as their everyday administrative language, so after 1866 we find the church registers no longer in Latin but in the local language, like Czech, Polish, Slovakian, Slovenian, Slawonian, Croatian, Serb, Italian, Hungarian, Romanian, Ukraine/Russian and many others. And then, under these, there were sub dialects as to locality. Dialects are based on an existing literary language. The administrative and legal language (Courts, etc.) was German, the international language (Diplomatic documents like passports) were in French. Aida ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 3:22 PM, frank <[email protected]> wrote: > Aida: It is my understanding that there was a common language, but that the > spoken dialects were different, and one would know where the speaker was > from immediately. Much like modern Euro French and Canadian French. > > But you are the expert on this. True or not? > > Frank Heidl Slocum > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 6:08 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > > > > Indeed, Daniel, the German and Czech speech boundaries were used to > define > > the so called Sudetenland, and it was in 1938 that these ethnic groups > > separated. Prior to that, and all during the monarchy's rules for over > > 400 > > years, they were never separated. There is no doubt that the influence > of > > politics separated these people while they had a history of peaceful > > coexistence and dependence on one another. Actually, their cruel > > separation > > came with the influence of religion and political interest. Although > > German > > speaking pockets are found historically all through Bohemia, there were > > hardly any Czech speaking people in Western Bohemia before 1918, > > particularly in the area called " Egerland" which originally belonged to > > Bavaria. However, there were Slavic Sorbs (or Sorbo) within the East > > part > > of Germany, in the location from Lusatia to southern Berlin. Wherever > two > > speech boundaries meet, the languages there spoken become > interchangeable. > > You are finding the same here on the North American continent, for > > instance > > in Canada where French and English are adjoined, and Spanish and > English > > in the Southern States. > > Aida > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 1:46 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> Thank you Aida, > >> > >> > >> > >> It is wonderful that you share with all of us your vast knowledge of the > >> German - Bohemian history. > >> > >> My father family is full Bohemian, but when I talked to my Grandfather > >> years ago he seemed to > >> > >> believe there was not a real border between them. Both Grandparents > knew > >> how to speak both > >> > >> languages. > >> > >> > >> > >> As part of my mother's family, we have always thought of the Hughes > >> family > >> as from Wales. As I dug > >> > >> further in history, I have found that the Hughes family were German > >> family > >> who immigrated to Wales > >> > >> in the 11 to 12 century. They were a mining family who moved to new > >> sources in Wales, then on to > >> > >> Wisconsin in the late 1800's. > >> > >> > >> > >> Daniel Nechkash > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> > >> To: [email protected] > >> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 9:53:56 PM GMT -05:00 Colombia > >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > >> > >> I think I can provide some insight into the theory that they came with > >> glassworkers from Bohemia to Poland, but again, we have to go back to > >> history to trace the probable trail of your ancestors. Never forget > >> that the Austrian Hungarian Empire lasted over 400 years and > >> encompassed a huge area. This area was split into 9 countires after > >> WW1 (1918) and hence you find the original residents of Austria all of > >> a sudden in "other country". Austria Hungary was a multiethnical > >> country, something Europe is trying to achieve now, and outside forces > >> tore it apart when it was already in existence and a great military > >> threat to Great Britain. > >> Now we come to the glasswork theory. Bohemia also was a part of > >> Austria Hungary, and has very close ties to provinces of France, > >> namely Luxembourg (the Luxemburgers were Bohemian Kings) and > >> Alsace/Lorraine as well as part of Belgium. So... what do I see? I > >> see a trail.... and especially since the nobility is involved who were > >> the first to start up industries. Bohemia had huge glass and > >> porcelain manufacture, so had France. It is most likely that the > >> nobility took their best craftsmen with their retinue to other areas > >> of the Empire. > >> All you have to do is to search for historical maps on the > >> internet. Look at the old Austrian Hungarian map and then look where > >> your ancestors lived, and you will see that they were all within the > >> borders of the Empire. You'll find that the Austrian Hungarian > >> Monarchy encompassed within her original borders lands that are now > >> split away from the ancient motherland and were arbitrarily given to > >> Poland, Romania, Italy, and alsao entirely new countries were invented > >> in 1918 like Cechoslovakia and Yugoslavia at the Treaty of Trianon. > >> This was to appease the Slavic Nations who never had a homeland of > >> their own. Therefore, I am sure that the place you call "Poland" was > >> the Galicia of Austria Hungary. > >> This trail may explain your Kichard from France to the German > >> Glasswork areas of Bohemia, and from there to Poland. To bear this > >> out, I can assure you that I have French Names in my own family who > >> were Germans from French provinces and I found them even farther East > >> along the Danube, than yours. > >> Aida > >> > >> On 12/16/09, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > Hello again, > >> > > >> > Thank you, Aida and Frank, for responding to my question about > whether > >> my > >> > Kichard ancestors were of German origin. I'll follow-up on the > >> suggestions > >> > in your e-mails. > >> > > >> > I had previously heard from a German native that the Kichard name was > >> > likely not of German origin, but I had reason to believe otherwise, as > >> > I > >> > mention below. > >> > > >> > I still have Kichard family living in south-east Poland, and they > >> > believe > >> > they are of German heritage. > >> > > >> > The book, "Opis Powiatu Jasielskiego", a geographical gazetteer > >> published > >> > in Poland in 1908, describes the villages in that area of Poland. It > >> > states that my first Kichard ancestor, Jakub Kichard, arrived there > in > >> the > >> > late > >> > 1700's with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers to set-up and > >> > operate > >> a > >> > glass-works for a Polish nobleman who was building a church and > castle > >> > nearby. > >> > > >> > Archive records show that my Kichard ancestors lived in that village > >> > from > >> > that time up to 1945, almost 200 years, until the communist > government > >> > forced all of the residents to move from the village at that time. > >> > > >> > Elderly Kichard relatives who once lived in that village and were > among > >> > those forced to move out in 1945, still say that when they had lived > >> there, > >> > that when their young friends who also lived there were coming to > visit > >> > them, and were asked by their family where they were going, they would > >> > say,"to > >> > see the Germans". > >> > > >> > Thus, family history and the above says that Kichard is a "German" > >> > name. > >> > > >> > However, since my first Kichard ancestor arrived in that area of > Poland > >> > with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers, perhaps it is a Czech > name > >> that > >> > is derived from an earlier German name. > >> > > >> > Any of your comments and further suggestions on my Kichard search will > >> > be > >> > appreciated. > >> > > >> > Thank you all again. > >> > > >> > Andy > >> > Pittsburgh, PA > >> > > >> > > >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> > ------------------------------- > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> > without > >> the > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >