Do not mix up the stories you hear about England or Ireland, or even Scandinavian places, because they were in the vicinity of a seashore. This is an entirely different culture and provides a steady mix of people. Bohemia is landlocked, the people who lived there lived in the same places for centuries and everybody knew everybody else's business for several generations (and besides the whole village was related by intermarriage). Everybody's affair was widely discussed among the villagers. This in itself had a rather self-controlling effect on all inhabitants. And that was also often the cause for emigration, some had just about enough of interferences. But let me tell you that villagers were very protective of their own people and sometimes rather cruel to outsiders or even villagers from the next village. Sometimes when a young swain from another village looked for a bride in a neighboring village, he was often thoroughly thrashed by the young men of the village where that pretty girl lived. To be able to steal the (village's Maibaum) may-tree and plant it in the garden of your sweetheart in another village, that was just about the greatest insult to the young men of a village but a great honor to the lady in question. There were "wars" fought in Springtime when the juices were flowing and there are a lot of funny stories as part of Egerland's legends. It simply was a very clannish group protecting their own. And because of that, those that deserved help received it. Read the prior discussions on that. Aida On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:38 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: > Doug, Robert and Joseph bring up interesting points. Things I was not at > all familar with. > > Ya had to have enough money to marry? Like how much? Was this to pay the > church or to establish a home or for someother purpose? > > Did this mean the household of the new unwed Mother had to financially > support the new Mom and child? > > If so, Fathers must have cringed every time a female baby was born because > each daughter could end up costing him a great deal. > > Culturally, things must have been so different from place to place. Like > Doug, I was thinking about England and their cruelity with designations of > bastard and the like. > > Aida could you and others in the know, give us all a tutorial on the > broader subjects referenced in this discussion ? > > Thanks again, in advance, > > Elaine > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Joseph Lischka <jlischka@ceoexpress.com> > >Sent: Feb 14, 2012 12:02 AM > >To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's > in Bohemia? > > > >My great grandfather Laurenz was born illegitemate to Frantisek and Eva > in 1844 in southwest Bohemia, where Frantisek was a millworker. Frantisek, > Eva and little Laurenz went back to Frantisek's home village in southeast > Bohemia soon after and Frantisek and Eva got married 14 years later, which > made Laurenz legitimate. Frantisek was never a soldier as far as I know. > The whole family were factory workers or day laborers and probably could > not afford to marry. > > > >--- rpaulgb@yahoo.com wrote: > > > >From: Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> > >To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's > in Bohemia? > >Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 22:37:05 -0600 > > > >Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not marry until the man could > prove that he was finically able to support a family? > >I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he community did not > want to support a family that was not able to provide for itself > > > >On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > > >> Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian Army (and please don't forget > that > >> that this Army existed for 400 years) all soldiers of lower ranks were > >> not allowed to marry while in service. It was different in officers > ranks, > >> but then the father of the bride had to pay a dowry of 20,000 Kronen as > >> "Kaution" (security). I do not know the exact legal ramification on > that, > >> so you must read up on it. I just know the story from our family, > where my > >> aunt's arguments with her father were fierce, because she desired to > >> receive that money from him for her marriage. Since my grandfather had > 6 > >> daughters, he most certainly could not single out one of them with this > >> privilege. > >> And yes, these entries you found in the registers are indeed these > >> "early born" children who were declared legitimate as soon as the father > >> came back from his tour of duty. The Church was understanding in this, > >> because the couple was not able to marry while the groom was serving in > the > >> Military. > >> Aida > >> > >> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: > >> > >>> Aide, > >>> > >>> Wondering about something you wrote below about Military Service, > Marriage > >>> and Births. > >>> > >>> Sometimes I notice in church registers that a woman gives birth to a > child > >>> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later date, it appears a Father's > name > >>> was added and illigitamet is crossed out and ligitamete added. > >>> > >>> Would this be likely one of those times when the Father was away with > the > >>> military? Would adding a Fathers name in such a situation happen > fairly > >>> regularly? > >>> > >>> Speaking of Military Service. In peace time ( was there any? ), what > was > >>> the requirement of males to military service? Did they ALL have to > service > >>> or was it voluntary? > >>> > >>> Thanks again, > >>> > >>> Elaine in Maine > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > >>>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM > >>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in > 1700's > >>> in Bohemia? > >>>> > >>>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood that our very Catholic families who > >>> were > >>>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl were polygamous. What you are > >>>> encountering is this. The Utschig were a HUGE family. Every family > had > >>>> many children, They became each others sponsors at birth and so the > same > >>>> first names come up again and again. If the births were only 3 or 7 > >>> months > >>>> apart, then you must look into the names of the father and mother, and > >>> even > >>>> there you may encounter the same names. So, since no house nunbers > are > >>>> given, you have to diagram your family members with their birth dates. > >>>> Eventually you will find out into which families they could they fit > it. > >>>> This is just your guideline. > >>>> I had a similar situation where three brothers had children and > >>>> all of them used the same first names over and over again. And > then, the > >>>> children of the NEXT generation were given the exactly same names by > their > >>>> related sponsors, which of course were family member, brothers > sisters, > >>>> cousins, and still - to this day - that whole clan is somewhat of a > >>> puzzle > >>>> to what family they belong; but it was not unusual that a woman gave > >>> birth > >>>> to 19 children.... one every year until menopause.. That does not mean > >>> that > >>>> they all survived, but they are, or course, listed as births in the > >>> church > >>>> register. So go then to the death register and see who was listed > there > >>>> and there they also give the names of the parents. It will help you > to > >>>> sort out the families. If you compare birth register to death > register > >>> you > >>>> will find more clarity. > >>>> Go back as far as you can and write down the names of the > couples > >>>> (meaning families of siblings). Then, write down the names of their > >>>> children and next to it the birth date and if you find a death entry > as > >>>> well...... > >>>> And then see, how they fit. > >>>> And this is the way you can sort it out. > >>>> Good luck. > >>>> Birth of 18 children is absolutely possible, we have found that many > >>> times > >>>> and from the same couple. Thre are also multiple marriages, but forget > >>>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were far to religious. Pre marital > birth > >>> of > >>>> children are possible, because the men were not able to marry while in > >>>> military service and could not wait that long. They usually married > >>>> immediately when they were released. > >>>> As far as children born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my > >>>> mother's side gave birth to 13 children in the late 1800, of which 7 > lived > >>>> through their childhood diseases which killed many of their siblings. > The > >>>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, Diphteria, whooping cough, "Pocken" > >>>> which is smallpox and disentery. > >>>> They solely relied on herbal medicines then. > >>>> Aida > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife > (polygamy) > >>> in > >>>>> the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines? (I understand > in > >>>>> Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of men, so > >>> many > >>>>> having been killed in wars.) > >>>>> > >>>>> I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as being > Anna > >>>>> Catharina. I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina > >>> Pichl/Büchl), > >>>>> but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate > >>> marriages. > >>>>> Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who born him > >>> many > >>>>> children. > >>>>> > >>>>> There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina before > the > >>>>> 1728 marriage I found. This is important to me because my 3rd great > >>>>> grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. > >>>>> > >>>>> These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed like > in > >>>>> the later records. No haus numbers, no names of parents. Two > children > >>>>> born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart. The rest of the > >>> children > >>>>> are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna Catharina. > >>>>> > >>>>> I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first Anna > >>>>> Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned above > who > >>> were > >>>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the other in > >>> 1739 > >>>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between). So my theory > on > >>> the > >>>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold up. Too many children born in between > >>> 1729 > >>>>> and 1739. > >>>>> > >>>>> Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I hope this makes sense. > >>>>> > >>>>> Mary > >>>>> > >>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >>> without > >>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>>> > >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>> > >>> > >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>> > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________________ > >A CEOExpressSelect Member > >http://www.ceoexpress.com > > > >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Bob, I have never heard of this, so I really cannot say. Most of the Egerland families supported one another when the chips were down. But it could have been different during industrial development areas in the late 19th century. I understood that the question was posed for ancestors in the 18th century when agricultural life was still very dominant. Having a concubine would have been possible only for someone who could afford "keeping a woman", like the nobility, statesmen, people who had jobs away from their homebase. And that does not include farmers. Bohemia was nothing like "England" who traded worldwide being an island. Bohemia was a landlocked area where most of the families were stout Catholics and the financial status among them was not as crass between rich and poor as it was in England for many centuries. The poor on the continent were not quite as destitute as in Britain, because the Monarchy made the Nobility responsible for the welfare of the people in their regions. There was a poor house in every village to care for widows with families or infirm people; and the nobility would either provide financial help or offer employment in the country villages and the same happened in the cities, where poor people were supported by the Burghers and often even the guilds. Do not mix up the stories you hear from Ireland, England, or any other places, because it was a very regulated life in the Austrian Hungarian Monarchy. Even new settlers to a new area were provided with a newly built farm house and acreage, they never had to live in sod houses or fend for themselves. If there was a lack of some kind due to tragedy in a family, then the churches would step in to provide the necessities on a community caring level. Our people were not as kind to traveling folks, but natives in villages and cities were taken care of by their relatives, neighbors, poor houses, and church alms. However, it is realistic enough that it would not preclude that some babies were born on the "other side of the blanket". Children, in general, were needed and very welcome. The larger the family, the stronger the entire family, because they had "enough hands" to work. Children made a family "wealthy" because they started to contribute to the farm income very early and were taught raising small animals and gathering of wild growing food in nature (mushrooms, nettles, rosehips, wild fruit, roots as well as vegetables and fruit from their gardens) which was the basis for their daily meals. The children took care of this from 6 - 14 years of age, and then they generally left the family thereafter when they apprenticed for a job. Marriages for men at age 17 and women 16 were quite common, because in "taking over the family farm" many young men could avoid military service. Aida On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> wrote: > Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not marry until the man could > prove that he was finically able to support a family? > I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he community did not want > to support a family that was not able to provide for itself > > On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > > Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian Army (and please don't forget > that > > that this Army existed for 400 years) all soldiers of lower ranks were > > not allowed to marry while in service. It was different in officers > ranks, > > but then the father of the bride had to pay a dowry of 20,000 Kronen as > > "Kaution" (security). I do not know the exact legal ramification on > that, > > so you must read up on it. I just know the story from our family, where > my > > aunt's arguments with her father were fierce, because she desired to > > receive that money from him for her marriage. Since my grandfather had 6 > > daughters, he most certainly could not single out one of them with this > > privilege. > > And yes, these entries you found in the registers are indeed these > > "early born" children who were declared legitimate as soon as the father > > came back from his tour of duty. The Church was understanding in this, > > because the couple was not able to marry while the groom was serving in > the > > Military. > > Aida > > > > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: > > > >> Aide, > >> > >> Wondering about something you wrote below about Military Service, > Marriage > >> and Births. > >> > >> Sometimes I notice in church registers that a woman gives birth to a > child > >> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later date, it appears a Father's name > >> was added and illigitamet is crossed out and ligitamete added. > >> > >> Would this be likely one of those times when the Father was away with > the > >> military? Would adding a Fathers name in such a situation happen fairly > >> regularly? > >> > >> Speaking of Military Service. In peace time ( was there any? ), what was > >> the requirement of males to military service? Did they ALL have to > service > >> or was it voluntary? > >> > >> Thanks again, > >> > >> Elaine in Maine > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > >>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM > >>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in > 1700's > >> in Bohemia? > >>> > >>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood that our very Catholic families who > >> were > >>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl were polygamous. What you are > >>> encountering is this. The Utschig were a HUGE family. Every family > had > >>> many children, They became each others sponsors at birth and so the > same > >>> first names come up again and again. If the births were only 3 or 7 > >> months > >>> apart, then you must look into the names of the father and mother, and > >> even > >>> there you may encounter the same names. So, since no house nunbers are > >>> given, you have to diagram your family members with their birth dates. > >>> Eventually you will find out into which families they could they fit > it. > >>> This is just your guideline. > >>> I had a similar situation where three brothers had children and > >>> all of them used the same first names over and over again. And then, > the > >>> children of the NEXT generation were given the exactly same names by > their > >>> related sponsors, which of course were family member, brothers sisters, > >>> cousins, and still - to this day - that whole clan is somewhat of a > >> puzzle > >>> to what family they belong; but it was not unusual that a woman gave > >> birth > >>> to 19 children.... one every year until menopause.. That does not mean > >> that > >>> they all survived, but they are, or course, listed as births in the > >> church > >>> register. So go then to the death register and see who was listed > there > >>> and there they also give the names of the parents. It will help you to > >>> sort out the families. If you compare birth register to death register > >> you > >>> will find more clarity. > >>> Go back as far as you can and write down the names of the > couples > >>> (meaning families of siblings). Then, write down the names of their > >>> children and next to it the birth date and if you find a death entry as > >>> well...... > >>> And then see, how they fit. > >>> And this is the way you can sort it out. > >>> Good luck. > >>> Birth of 18 children is absolutely possible, we have found that many > >> times > >>> and from the same couple. Thre are also multiple marriages, but forget > >>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were far to religious. Pre marital > birth > >> of > >>> children are possible, because the men were not able to marry while in > >>> military service and could not wait that long. They usually married > >>> immediately when they were released. > >>> As far as children born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my > >>> mother's side gave birth to 13 children in the late 1800, of which 7 > lived > >>> through their childhood diseases which killed many of their siblings. > The > >>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, Diphteria, whooping cough, "Pocken" > >>> which is smallpox and disentery. > >>> They solely relied on herbal medicines then. > >>> Aida > >>> > >>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> > wrote: > >>> > >>>> I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife > (polygamy) > >> in > >>>> the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines? (I understand > in > >>>> Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of men, so > >> many > >>>> having been killed in wars.) > >>>> > >>>> I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as being > Anna > >>>> Catharina. I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina > >> Pichl/Büchl), > >>>> but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate > >> marriages. > >>>> Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who born him > >> many > >>>> children. > >>>> > >>>> There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina before > the > >>>> 1728 marriage I found. This is important to me because my 3rd great > >>>> grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. > >>>> > >>>> These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed like > in > >>>> the later records. No haus numbers, no names of parents. Two > children > >>>> born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart. The rest of the > >> children > >>>> are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna Catharina. > >>>> > >>>> I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first Anna > >>>> Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned above who > >> were > >>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the other in > >> 1739 > >>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between). So my theory > on > >> the > >>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold up. Too many children born in between > >> 1729 > >>>> and 1739. > >>>> > >>>> Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I hope this makes sense. > >>>> > >>>> Mary > >>>> > >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not marry until the man could prove that he was finically able to support a family? I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he community did not want to support a family that was not able to provide for itself On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian Army (and please don't forget that > that this Army existed for 400 years) all soldiers of lower ranks were > not allowed to marry while in service. It was different in officers ranks, > but then the father of the bride had to pay a dowry of 20,000 Kronen as > "Kaution" (security). I do not know the exact legal ramification on that, > so you must read up on it. I just know the story from our family, where my > aunt's arguments with her father were fierce, because she desired to > receive that money from him for her marriage. Since my grandfather had 6 > daughters, he most certainly could not single out one of them with this > privilege. > And yes, these entries you found in the registers are indeed these > "early born" children who were declared legitimate as soon as the father > came back from his tour of duty. The Church was understanding in this, > because the couple was not able to marry while the groom was serving in the > Military. > Aida > > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: > >> Aide, >> >> Wondering about something you wrote below about Military Service, Marriage >> and Births. >> >> Sometimes I notice in church registers that a woman gives birth to a child >> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later date, it appears a Father's name >> was added and illigitamet is crossed out and ligitamete added. >> >> Would this be likely one of those times when the Father was away with the >> military? Would adding a Fathers name in such a situation happen fairly >> regularly? >> >> Speaking of Military Service. In peace time ( was there any? ), what was >> the requirement of males to military service? Did they ALL have to service >> or was it voluntary? >> >> Thanks again, >> >> Elaine in Maine >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM >>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's >> in Bohemia? >>> >>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood that our very Catholic families who >> were >>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl were polygamous. What you are >>> encountering is this. The Utschig were a HUGE family. Every family had >>> many children, They became each others sponsors at birth and so the same >>> first names come up again and again. If the births were only 3 or 7 >> months >>> apart, then you must look into the names of the father and mother, and >> even >>> there you may encounter the same names. So, since no house nunbers are >>> given, you have to diagram your family members with their birth dates. >>> Eventually you will find out into which families they could they fit it. >>> This is just your guideline. >>> I had a similar situation where three brothers had children and >>> all of them used the same first names over and over again. And then, the >>> children of the NEXT generation were given the exactly same names by their >>> related sponsors, which of course were family member, brothers sisters, >>> cousins, and still - to this day - that whole clan is somewhat of a >> puzzle >>> to what family they belong; but it was not unusual that a woman gave >> birth >>> to 19 children.... one every year until menopause.. That does not mean >> that >>> they all survived, but they are, or course, listed as births in the >> church >>> register. So go then to the death register and see who was listed there >>> and there they also give the names of the parents. It will help you to >>> sort out the families. If you compare birth register to death register >> you >>> will find more clarity. >>> Go back as far as you can and write down the names of the couples >>> (meaning families of siblings). Then, write down the names of their >>> children and next to it the birth date and if you find a death entry as >>> well...... >>> And then see, how they fit. >>> And this is the way you can sort it out. >>> Good luck. >>> Birth of 18 children is absolutely possible, we have found that many >> times >>> and from the same couple. Thre are also multiple marriages, but forget >>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were far to religious. Pre marital birth >> of >>> children are possible, because the men were not able to marry while in >>> military service and could not wait that long. They usually married >>> immediately when they were released. >>> As far as children born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my >>> mother's side gave birth to 13 children in the late 1800, of which 7 lived >>> through their childhood diseases which killed many of their siblings. The >>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, Diphteria, whooping cough, "Pocken" >>> which is smallpox and disentery. >>> They solely relied on herbal medicines then. >>> Aida >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife (polygamy) >> in >>>> the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines? (I understand in >>>> Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of men, so >> many >>>> having been killed in wars.) >>>> >>>> I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as being Anna >>>> Catharina. I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina >> Pichl/Büchl), >>>> but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate >> marriages. >>>> Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who born him >> many >>>> children. >>>> >>>> There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina before the >>>> 1728 marriage I found. This is important to me because my 3rd great >>>> grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. >>>> >>>> These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed like in >>>> the later records. No haus numbers, no names of parents. Two children >>>> born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart. The rest of the >> children >>>> are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna Catharina. >>>> >>>> I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first Anna >>>> Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned above who >> were >>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the other in >> 1739 >>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between). So my theory on >> the >>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold up. Too many children born in between >> 1729 >>>> and 1739. >>>> >>>> Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I hope this makes sense. >>>> >>>> Mary >>>> >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

My great grandfather Laurenz was born illegitemate to Frantisek and Eva in 1844 in southwest Bohemia, where Frantisek was a millworker. Frantisek, Eva and little Laurenz went back to Frantisek's home village in southeast Bohemia soon after and Frantisek and Eva got married 14 years later, which made Laurenz legitimate. Frantisek was never a soldier as far as I know. The whole family were factory workers or day laborers and probably could not afford to marry. --- rpaulgb@yahoo.com wrote: From: Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's in Bohemia? Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 22:37:05 -0600 Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not marry until the man could prove that he was finically able to support a family? I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he community did not want to support a family that was not able to provide for itself On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian Army (and please don't forget that > that this Army existed for 400 years) all soldiers of lower ranks were > not allowed to marry while in service. It was different in officers ranks, > but then the father of the bride had to pay a dowry of 20,000 Kronen as > "Kaution" (security). I do not know the exact legal ramification on that, > so you must read up on it. I just know the story from our family, where my > aunt's arguments with her father were fierce, because she desired to > receive that money from him for her marriage. Since my grandfather had 6 > daughters, he most certainly could not single out one of them with this > privilege. > And yes, these entries you found in the registers are indeed these > "early born" children who were declared legitimate as soon as the father > came back from his tour of duty. The Church was understanding in this, > because the couple was not able to marry while the groom was serving in the > Military. > Aida > > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: > >> Aide, >> >> Wondering about something you wrote below about Military Service, Marriage >> and Births. >> >> Sometimes I notice in church registers that a woman gives birth to a child >> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later date, it appears a Father's name >> was added and illigitamet is crossed out and ligitamete added. >> >> Would this be likely one of those times when the Father was away with the >> military? Would adding a Fathers name in such a situation happen fairly >> regularly? >> >> Speaking of Military Service. In peace time ( was there any? ), what was >> the requirement of males to military service? Did they ALL have to service >> or was it voluntary? >> >> Thanks again, >> >> Elaine in Maine >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM >>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's >> in Bohemia? >>> >>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood that our very Catholic families who >> were >>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl were polygamous. What you are >>> encountering is this. The Utschig were a HUGE family. Every family had >>> many children, They became each others sponsors at birth and so the same >>> first names come up again and again. If the births were only 3 or 7 >> months >>> apart, then you must look into the names of the father and mother, and >> even >>> there you may encounter the same names. So, since no house nunbers are >>> given, you have to diagram your family members with their birth dates. >>> Eventually you will find out into which families they could they fit it. >>> This is just your guideline. >>> I had a similar situation where three brothers had children and >>> all of them used the same first names over and over again. And then, the >>> children of the NEXT generation were given the exactly same names by their >>> related sponsors, which of course were family member, brothers sisters, >>> cousins, and still - to this day - that whole clan is somewhat of a >> puzzle >>> to what family they belong; but it was not unusual that a woman gave >> birth >>> to 19 children.... one every year until menopause.. That does not mean >> that >>> they all survived, but they are, or course, listed as births in the >> church >>> register. So go then to the death register and see who was listed there >>> and there they also give the names of the parents. It will help you to >>> sort out the families. If you compare birth register to death register >> you >>> will find more clarity. >>> Go back as far as you can and write down the names of the couples >>> (meaning families of siblings). Then, write down the names of their >>> children and next to it the birth date and if you find a death entry as >>> well...... >>> And then see, how they fit. >>> And this is the way you can sort it out. >>> Good luck. >>> Birth of 18 children is absolutely possible, we have found that many >> times >>> and from the same couple. Thre are also multiple marriages, but forget >>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were far to religious. Pre marital birth >> of >>> children are possible, because the men were not able to marry while in >>> military service and could not wait that long. They usually married >>> immediately when they were released. >>> As far as children born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my >>> mother's side gave birth to 13 children in the late 1800, of which 7 lived >>> through their childhood diseases which killed many of their siblings. The >>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, Diphteria, whooping cough, "Pocken" >>> which is smallpox and disentery. >>> They solely relied on herbal medicines then. >>> Aida >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife (polygamy) >> in >>>> the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines? (I understand in >>>> Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of men, so >> many >>>> having been killed in wars.) >>>> >>>> I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as being Anna >>>> Catharina. I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina >> Pichl/Büchl), >>>> but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate >> marriages. >>>> Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who born him >> many >>>> children. >>>> >>>> There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina before the >>>> 1728 marriage I found. This is important to me because my 3rd great >>>> grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. >>>> >>>> These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed like in >>>> the later records. No haus numbers, no names of parents. Two children >>>> born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart. The rest of the >> children >>>> are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna Catharina. >>>> >>>> I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first Anna >>>> Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned above who >> were >>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the other in >> 1739 >>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between). So my theory on >> the >>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold up. Too many children born in between >> 1729 >>>> and 1739. >>>> >>>> Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I hope this makes sense. >>>> >>>> Mary >>>> >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _____________________________________________________________ A CEOExpressSelect Member http://www.ceoexpress.com

At 06:46 PM 13/02/2012, you wrote: >Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian Army (and please don't forget that >that this Army existed for 400 years) all soldiers of lower ranks were >not allowed to marry while in service. It was different in officers ranks, >but then the father of the bride had to pay a dowry of 20,000 Kronen as >"Kaution" (security). I do not know the exact legal ramification on that, >so you must read up on it. I just know the story from our family, where my >aunt's arguments with her father were fierce, because she desired to >receive that money from him for her marriage. Since my grandfather had 6 >daughters, he most certainly could not single out one of them with this >privilege. > And yes, these entries you found in the registers are indeed these >"early born" children who were declared legitimate as soon as the father >came back from his tour of duty. The Church was understanding in this, >because the couple was not able to marry while the groom was serving in the >Military. > Aida --------- Aida I have a copy of the church's birth records for two of my uncles who were born in their mother's parents home and it states that they were illegitimate. On a copy of the actual church marriage record, it states at the bottom that this legitimizes the birth of the two boys. I thought this was very sensible. As I am sure my grandfather was in the army. Now, had this been England, they would be the bastard sons or way-begotten etc sons of the mother. They were down right mean about it. Doug

Aide, Wondering about something you wrote below about Military Service, Marriage and Births. Sometimes I notice in church registers that a woman gives birth to a child who is noted as illigitamet. At a later date, it appears a Father's name was added and illigitamet is crossed out and ligitamete added. Would this be likely one of those times when the Father was away with the military? Would adding a Fathers name in such a situation happen fairly regularly? Speaking of Military Service. In peace time ( was there any? ), what was the requirement of males to military service? Did they ALL have to service or was it voluntary? Thanks again, Elaine in Maine -----Original Message----- >From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM >To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's in Bohemia? > >Mary, there is hardly any likehood that our very Catholic families who were >living so close to the Abbey of Tepl were polygamous. What you are >encountering is this. The Utschig were a HUGE family. Every family had >many children, They became each others sponsors at birth and so the same >first names come up again and again. If the births were only 3 or 7 months >apart, then you must look into the names of the father and mother, and even >there you may encounter the same names. So, since no house nunbers are >given, you have to diagram your family members with their birth dates. >Eventually you will find out into which families they could they fit it. >This is just your guideline. > I had a similar situation where three brothers had children and >all of them used the same first names over and over again. And then, the >children of the NEXT generation were given the exactly same names by their >related sponsors, which of course were family member, brothers sisters, >cousins, and still - to this day - that whole clan is somewhat of a puzzle >to what family they belong; but it was not unusual that a woman gave birth >to 19 children.... one every year until menopause.. That does not mean that >they all survived, but they are, or course, listed as births in the church >register. So go then to the death register and see who was listed there >and there they also give the names of the parents. It will help you to >sort out the families. If you compare birth register to death register you >will find more clarity. > Go back as far as you can and write down the names of the couples >(meaning families of siblings). Then, write down the names of their >children and next to it the birth date and if you find a death entry as >well...... >And then see, how they fit. >And this is the way you can sort it out. > Good luck. >Birth of 18 children is absolutely possible, we have found that many times >and from the same couple. Thre are also multiple marriages, but forget >polygamy in the Egerland, they were far to religious. Pre marital birth of >children are possible, because the men were not able to marry while in >military service and could not wait that long. They usually married >immediately when they were released. > As far as children born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my >mother's side gave birth to 13 children in the late 1800, of which 7 lived >through their childhood diseases which killed many of their siblings. The >causes were mostly Scarlett fever, Diphteria, whooping cough, "Pocken" >which is smallpox and disentery. >They solely relied on herbal medicines then. > Aida > >On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife (polygamy) in >> the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines? (I understand in >> Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of men, so many >> having been killed in wars.) >> >> I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as being Anna >> Catharina. I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina Pichl/Büchl), >> but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate marriages. >> Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who born him many >> children. >> >> There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina before the >> 1728 marriage I found. This is important to me because my 3rd great >> grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. >> >> These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed like in >> the later records. No haus numbers, no names of parents. Two children >> born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart. The rest of the children >> are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna Catharina. >> >> I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first Anna >> Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned above who were >> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the other in 1739 >> (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between). So my theory on the >> death of an Anna doesn't hold up. Too many children born in between 1729 >> and 1739. >> >> Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I hope this makes sense. >> >> Mary >> >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian Army (and please don't forget that that this Army existed for 400 years) all soldiers of lower ranks were not allowed to marry while in service. It was different in officers ranks, but then the father of the bride had to pay a dowry of 20,000 Kronen as "Kaution" (security). I do not know the exact legal ramification on that, so you must read up on it. I just know the story from our family, where my aunt's arguments with her father were fierce, because she desired to receive that money from him for her marriage. Since my grandfather had 6 daughters, he most certainly could not single out one of them with this privilege. And yes, these entries you found in the registers are indeed these "early born" children who were declared legitimate as soon as the father came back from his tour of duty. The Church was understanding in this, because the couple was not able to marry while the groom was serving in the Military. Aida On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: > Aide, > > Wondering about something you wrote below about Military Service, Marriage > and Births. > > Sometimes I notice in church registers that a woman gives birth to a child > who is noted as illigitamet. At a later date, it appears a Father's name > was added and illigitamet is crossed out and ligitamete added. > > Would this be likely one of those times when the Father was away with the > military? Would adding a Fathers name in such a situation happen fairly > regularly? > > Speaking of Military Service. In peace time ( was there any? ), what was > the requirement of males to military service? Did they ALL have to service > or was it voluntary? > > Thanks again, > > Elaine in Maine > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > >Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM > >To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's > in Bohemia? > > > >Mary, there is hardly any likehood that our very Catholic families who > were > >living so close to the Abbey of Tepl were polygamous. What you are > >encountering is this. The Utschig were a HUGE family. Every family had > >many children, They became each others sponsors at birth and so the same > >first names come up again and again. If the births were only 3 or 7 > months > >apart, then you must look into the names of the father and mother, and > even > >there you may encounter the same names. So, since no house nunbers are > >given, you have to diagram your family members with their birth dates. > >Eventually you will find out into which families they could they fit it. > >This is just your guideline. > > I had a similar situation where three brothers had children and > >all of them used the same first names over and over again. And then, the > >children of the NEXT generation were given the exactly same names by their > >related sponsors, which of course were family member, brothers sisters, > >cousins, and still - to this day - that whole clan is somewhat of a > puzzle > >to what family they belong; but it was not unusual that a woman gave > birth > >to 19 children.... one every year until menopause.. That does not mean > that > >they all survived, but they are, or course, listed as births in the > church > >register. So go then to the death register and see who was listed there > >and there they also give the names of the parents. It will help you to > >sort out the families. If you compare birth register to death register > you > >will find more clarity. > > Go back as far as you can and write down the names of the couples > >(meaning families of siblings). Then, write down the names of their > >children and next to it the birth date and if you find a death entry as > >well...... > >And then see, how they fit. > >And this is the way you can sort it out. > > Good luck. > >Birth of 18 children is absolutely possible, we have found that many > times > >and from the same couple. Thre are also multiple marriages, but forget > >polygamy in the Egerland, they were far to religious. Pre marital birth > of > >children are possible, because the men were not able to marry while in > >military service and could not wait that long. They usually married > >immediately when they were released. > > As far as children born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my > >mother's side gave birth to 13 children in the late 1800, of which 7 lived > >through their childhood diseases which killed many of their siblings. The > >causes were mostly Scarlett fever, Diphteria, whooping cough, "Pocken" > >which is smallpox and disentery. > >They solely relied on herbal medicines then. > > Aida > > > >On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > >> I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife (polygamy) > in > >> the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines? (I understand in > >> Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of men, so > many > >> having been killed in wars.) > >> > >> I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as being Anna > >> Catharina. I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina > Pichl/Büchl), > >> but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate > marriages. > >> Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who born him > many > >> children. > >> > >> There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina before the > >> 1728 marriage I found. This is important to me because my 3rd great > >> grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. > >> > >> These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed like in > >> the later records. No haus numbers, no names of parents. Two children > >> born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart. The rest of the > children > >> are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna Catharina. > >> > >> I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first Anna > >> Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned above who > were > >> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the other in > 1739 > >> (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between). So my theory on > the > >> death of an Anna doesn't hold up. Too many children born in between > 1729 > >> and 1739. > >> > >> Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I hope this makes sense. > >> > >> Mary > >> > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Mary, there is hardly any likehood that our very Catholic families who were living so close to the Abbey of Tepl were polygamous. What you are encountering is this. The Utschig were a HUGE family. Every family had many children, They became each others sponsors at birth and so the same first names come up again and again. If the births were only 3 or 7 months apart, then you must look into the names of the father and mother, and even there you may encounter the same names. So, since no house nunbers are given, you have to diagram your family members with their birth dates. Eventually you will find out into which families they could they fit it. This is just your guideline. I had a similar situation where three brothers had children and all of them used the same first names over and over again. And then, the children of the NEXT generation were given the exactly same names by their related sponsors, which of course were family member, brothers sisters, cousins, and still - to this day - that whole clan is somewhat of a puzzle to what family they belong; but it was not unusual that a woman gave birth to 19 children.... one every year until menopause.. That does not mean that they all survived, but they are, or course, listed as births in the church register. So go then to the death register and see who was listed there and there they also give the names of the parents. It will help you to sort out the families. If you compare birth register to death register you will find more clarity. Go back as far as you can and write down the names of the couples (meaning families of siblings). Then, write down the names of their children and next to it the birth date and if you find a death entry as well...... And then see, how they fit. And this is the way you can sort it out. Good luck. Birth of 18 children is absolutely possible, we have found that many times and from the same couple. Thre are also multiple marriages, but forget polygamy in the Egerland, they were far to religious. Pre marital birth of children are possible, because the men were not able to marry while in military service and could not wait that long. They usually married immediately when they were released. As far as children born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my mother's side gave birth to 13 children in the late 1800, of which 7 lived through their childhood diseases which killed many of their siblings. The causes were mostly Scarlett fever, Diphteria, whooping cough, "Pocken" which is smallpox and disentery. They solely relied on herbal medicines then. Aida On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> wrote: > I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife (polygamy) in > the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines? (I understand in > Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of men, so many > having been killed in wars.) > > I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as being Anna > Catharina. I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina Pichl/Büchl), > but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate marriages. > Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who born him many > children. > > There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina before the > 1728 marriage I found. This is important to me because my 3rd great > grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. > > These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed like in > the later records. No haus numbers, no names of parents. Two children > born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart. The rest of the children > are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna Catharina. > > I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first Anna > Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned above who were > 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the other in 1739 > (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between). So my theory on the > death of an Anna doesn't hold up. Too many children born in between 1729 > and 1739. > > Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I hope this makes sense. > > Mary > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Anton Utschig and Anna Catharina are my fourth great grandparents, if I knew which set of Anton and Anna Catharina are correct. My 3rd great grandfather was born to one of them in 1741, not 1729. When Matthias (1741) was born, the five children after him are pretty evenly spaced like one woman had them. Mary

I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife (polygamy) in the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines?  (I understand in Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of men, so many having been killed in wars.) I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as being Anna Catharina.  I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina Pichl/Büchl), but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate marriages.  Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who born him many children. There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina before the 1728 marriage I found.  This is important to me because my 3rd great grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed like in the later records.  No haus numbers, no names of parents.  Two children born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart.  The rest of the children are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna Catharina. I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first Anna Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned above who were 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the other in 1739 (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between).  So my theory on the death of an Anna doesn't hold up. Too many children born in between 1729 and 1739. Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I hope this makes sense. Mary

Aida, I was away on business when I received this email. So, I had to go back and look at my notes at home. The person that did some research for me in the Plzen area translated the original document to read: *The church records of the family Lieber :* *The record No.1*: found out on 3rd December 2008 in the State region Archives (in following records only „SRA“) of Plzen, in the book No.32 of the parish Horni Sekyrany, on the page 92: „The date of the birth: on 12th August 1898 The date of the christening: on 13th August Baptised: Cyrill Sequens, the chaplain The name: *Theresia*, catholic, female, born in lawful wedlock The birthplace: Rochlowa # 58, in the county of Mies The midwife: Theresia Kalasch from Preheischen, tested The father: *Lieber* Wenzl from Pieska, the miner in Rochlowa # 58, the matrimonial son of deceased Petr Lieber, the peasant cottager in Pieska # 14 and of Anna Frank from Koschowitz #11, in the county of Mies. The mother: Nath Anna from Knie, the matrimonial daughter of Laurenz Nath, the woodreever in Rochlowa # 1 and of Katharina Zeidler from Knie # 14, in the county of Tuschkau The godmother: Theresie Nath, the woodreewer´s daughter of Rochlowa. „" So I was incorrect. The term was actually translated as peasant cottager. I can't put my hands on it right now. But I believe someone also referred to it as a laklander. I will send you the image of the original document directly. Thanks for your response. Mark On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 1:05 AM, Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> wrote: > Mark, as to the "cottage dweller" I need the proper title in German because > this could be a wrong translation. If he is listed as Häusler on your > documents, he was a house owner with small acreage. BEsides that he was > most likely trained in a craft, meaning that he either worked as a > journeyman for someone, or had his own craft shop in or around his house. > If he is listed as "Inwohner" then that means that he either rented a flat > in a house which was owned by another, or he was actually employed there > with room and board. Also, a pensioned family member, like grandpa or > grandma would be listed as "Inwohner" which means that they were counted in > the census as living in that house. > Someone listed as "Hausbesitzer" means that he was a house-owner, and > if he lived in a town, he was a Burgher which had more privileged social > standing and he was not a serf but a responsible to his city council. > If he lived in a village and was titled "Hausbesitzer" he then owned > a house with a little more land than a Häusler and would have run some sort > of business out of his house, like transportation service, tanning, game > warden/hunter, forestry worker, butcher, baker, shoemaker, tailor, smith, > cooper, woodworker, and such, comes to mind. It was rare that a young man > did not have a profession, because at least after 8 years of schooling they > were enrolled in some sort of apprentice program, unless it was a firstborn > son who would be the inheritor of the "Hof" - meaning the family farm. > Master craftsman were certified by a "Meisterbrief" issued by their > guild (Master's diploma) upon completion of a > "Meisterstueck" which was a valuable piece of work in his profession and > if they were not displayed at the family home business, they can be seen at > the various guild's craft-museum in Europe. Every "Meister" had to own a > house, because he had to provide room and board for his apprentices and > journeymen. Usually those Meister-Houses were larger houses as they worked > mostly their profession in the industrial part of their homes or shops, > however, at critical harvest times, everyone worked in the fields, because > since there were no supermarkets, all victuals had to come from the > owner's garden or fields. These professions were ruled under strict > supervision by their guilds, and they were standardized by law since the > Middle ages and this system continues to this day, hence the high quality > of European craftsmen. A craft is not learned in Vocational school in > Europe, but is a three year apprentice program with hands on practical > learning. Now a vocational school supports the learning of apprentices > twice a week. You may want to read up on that. > Rochlov seems to have a different name now and I was unable to find > its German name, but it is along the Boehmerwald which is called Sumava in > Czech. I have to check out Rochlov a little closer to give you a better > answer. > Aida > > > On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 4:51 PM, Mark Lieber <marklieber1@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Aida, > > > > I have been following conversations on this site for several weeks. I > have > > found them > > very informative. This particular one is of interest to me. My great > > grandfather, Wenzl > > Lieber was from Rochlov, Bohemia. It is just west of Plzen. I had the > > opportunity > > to visit the village in 2010. But the language barrier posed a BIG > > problem. I did see that > > there was a "castle" in this small village. Wenzl was a miner. Could it > > be that this castle > > was the home of a nobleman l that employed him as a miner? > > > > Also, his father Petr Lieber lived across the lane from him. Records > > indicated that he was > > a "cottage dweller". What does that actually mean? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Mark > > > > On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > Go to page 367 where you can see that they have most of their Forestry > > > personnel listed by name. There is one area called "Peter and Paul" and > > > there may have been a farm called "Peterhof".... Also look at the > names > > > under "Maierhof" to possibly find this Peterhof. The Nobility ran > their > > > agriculture like a multiple economy and they had a large staff over > > several > > > very large Maierhofs which are country estates at best. They either had > > it > > > run by family, or they leased it out, or had a manager run it for them. > > > Besides that, the nobility had industrial interests in the area, as > they > > > developed mining, glass blowing, porcelain factories, etc. just run it > > > through the translator and you will see their revenue diversification. > > > Forest and Wildlife was a HUGE resource for them in Bohemia. > > > > > > Link: > > > > > > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=ugIEAAAAMAAJ&printsec=titlepage&dq=%22topografisch+statistischer%22+schematismus+des+grossgrundbesitzes+im+koenigreiche+bohmen#v=onepage&q=%22topografisch%20statistischer%22%20schematismus%20des%20grossgrundbesitzes%20im%20koenigreiche%20bohmen&f=false > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 7:23 AM, <idirlion@me.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Sorry, all I have is this as his occupation: > > > > > > > > Furstlich Schwarzenbergischer Fasanjager Zu Peterhof In Bohmen > > > > > > > > I understand the German. > > > > > > > > Does this help? > > > > > > > > best, > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > On Dé Luain, 6 Feabhra, 2012, at 07:12, Aida Kraus wrote: > > > > > > > > > Do you know the village name where this Peterhof was located, > because > > > > there > > > > > are several by that name? It might lead us to your family names > in > > > the > > > > > church registers which are partially archived in the Plzn (Pilsen) > > > > archives > > > > > and which you can access from your home computer. > > > > > Aida > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 5:20 AM, <idirlion@me.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> My great-granddad was born in Austria 1883 (Laa an der Thaya), > and I > > > > have > > > > >> his birth record, but my family tree says that his parents came > from > > > > >> Bohemia (Peterhof 1826 and Budweiss 1855). > > > > >> > > > > >> Are any of these records online? > > > > >> > > > > >> Or do I need to order everything through the LDS? > > > > >> > > > > >> Thanks. > > > > >> > > > > >> Paul > > > > >> Oregon > > > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > > >> ------------------------------- > > > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > > without > > > > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > >> > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

The recent "The Lands They Left" program has ended and I'm hoping attendees might have notes or recordings of the program. As several of us mentioned in early January, we are willing to contribute in order to receive content from this program. Regards, Jason Neumann Cincinnati, Ohio

Hello All,In my searching of online Catholic Church documents, I have come upon the term 'cooperator' fora church official.It appears that this person has the power to baptize, wed and officiate funerals ifthe Priest is not available.Thank you,Bill ThoendelHoskins, Nebraska

Bill, a catholic priest is given the title "cooperator" when he cares for his parish. Yes, he is fully ordained and can fulfill all services and administer sacraments. He becomes a "cooperator" (a leading position in the parish of the church's administrative area) after he has served as a priest for a certain time in the community. "Cooperator" is the title of a position within the local church or churches, as many priests now function in that capacity in more than one parish since there is such a shortage of catholic priests. You may also want to read the attached link, because there are married catholic priests, actually. And there will be more because of the shortage of priests, ie, if a married Anglican Priest converts to Catholicism, or if a graduate of a catholic priest's seminary worked as teacher/professor and becomes ordained after he married. http://catholicism.about.com/b/2009/11/19/reader-question-are-there-married-catholic-priests.htm Aida --------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 5:07 AM, William Thoendel <willthon@msn.com> wrote: > > > > > Hello All,In my searching of online Catholic Church documents, I have come > upon the term 'cooperator' fora church official.It appears that this person > has the power to baptize, wed and officiate funerals ifthe Priest is not > available.Thank you,Bill ThoendelHoskins, Nebraska > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Listers, I am in need of someone who would be kind enough to do some research for me please. I first asked about the Jantsch family about 12 months ago with some success. As I am in Australia and cannot read German or Czech I have had limited success with any of the websites that had been recommended to me. Is there anyone who would be willing to search for the family of Josef Jantsch born 1841 in Gablonz to Anostas and Barbara (unsure of maiden name) Jantsch. This information has been gllened from Josef’s Australian death certificate. Please if there is anyone who can help me please contact me. Thanks in advance for your consideration Regards Jan

Jan, I have used Hana Skockova in the past & highly recommend her. Her rates are in Czech koruna, based on the current rate of exchange. She lives in Prague & uses the train to research in other cities. She speaks fluent Eng. Contact email: quirin@quick.cz Judy Anchorage On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 12:56 AM, <jan.crawford2359@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Listers, > > I am in need of someone who would be kind enough to do some research for > me please. I first asked about the Jantsch family about 12 months ago with > some success. As I am in Australia and cannot read German or Czech I have > had limited success with any of the websites that had been recommended to > me. > > Is there anyone who would be willing to search for the family of Josef > Jantsch born 1841 in Gablonz to Anostas and Barbara (unsure of maiden name) > Jantsch. This information has been gllened from Josef’s Australian death > certificate. > > Please if there is anyone who can help me please contact me. > > Thanks in advance for your consideration > > Regards > Jan > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

You are correct, there is no town or village called Klobasna, it is however a street name in the area of Tabor. That was an area with a majority of Czech population. Aida ------------------------------------------------- On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 6:47 AM, <idirlion@me.com> wrote: > Thanks. > > I see a Wenzel Trexler (maybe a relative) in Klobasna, but otherwise I do > not see anything that seems helpful. > > I really appreciate you sending me to this book. > > I looked for Klobasna as a place name in the South Bohemia online records > that another person kindly sent me to, but no such town is listed. > > Paul > > On Dé Luain, 6 Feabhra, 2012, at 08:01, Aida Kraus wrote: > > > Go to page 367 where you can see that they have most of their Forestry > > personnel listed by name. There is one area called "Peter and Paul" and > > there may have been a farm called "Peterhof".... Also look at the names > > under "Maierhof" to possibly find this Peterhof. The Nobility ran their > > agriculture like a multiple economy and they had a large staff over > several > > very large Maierhofs which are country estates at best. They either had > it > > run by family, or they leased it out, or had a manager run it for them. > > Besides that, the nobility had industrial interests in the area, as they > > developed mining, glass blowing, porcelain factories, etc. just run it > > through the translator and you will see their revenue diversification. > > Forest and Wildlife was a HUGE resource for them in Bohemia. > > > > Link: > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=ugIEAAAAMAAJ&printsec=titlepage&dq=%22topografisch+statistischer%22+schematismus+des+grossgrundbesitzes+im+koenigreiche+bohmen#v=onepage&q=%22topografisch%20statistischer%22%20schematismus%20des%20grossgrundbesitzes%20im%20koenigreiche%20bohmen&f=false > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 7:23 AM, <idirlion@me.com> wrote: > > > >> Sorry, all I have is this as his occupation: > >> > >> Furstlich Schwarzenbergischer Fasanjager Zu Peterhof In Bohmen > >> > >> I understand the German. > >> > >> Does this help? > >> > >> best, > >> Paul > >> > >> On Dé Luain, 6 Feabhra, 2012, at 07:12, Aida Kraus wrote: > >> > >>> Do you know the village name where this Peterhof was located, because > >> there > >>> are several by that name? It might lead us to your family names in > the > >>> church registers which are partially archived in the Plzn (Pilsen) > >> archives > >>> and which you can access from your home computer. > >>> Aida > >>> > >>> On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 5:20 AM, <idirlion@me.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> My great-granddad was born in Austria 1883 (Laa an der Thaya), and I > >> have > >>>> his birth record, but my family tree says that his parents came from > >>>> Bohemia (Peterhof 1826 and Budweiss 1855). > >>>> > >>>> Are any of these records online? > >>>> > >>>> Or do I need to order everything through the LDS? > >>>> > >>>> Thanks. > >>>> > >>>> Paul > >>>> Oregon > >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thanks. I see a Wenzel Trexler (maybe a relative) in Klobasna, but otherwise I do not see anything that seems helpful. I really appreciate you sending me to this book. I looked for Klobasna as a place name in the South Bohemia online records that another person kindly sent me to, but no such town is listed. Paul On Dé Luain, 6 Feabhra, 2012, at 08:01, Aida Kraus wrote: > Go to page 367 where you can see that they have most of their Forestry > personnel listed by name. There is one area called "Peter and Paul" and > there may have been a farm called "Peterhof".... Also look at the names > under "Maierhof" to possibly find this Peterhof. The Nobility ran their > agriculture like a multiple economy and they had a large staff over several > very large Maierhofs which are country estates at best. They either had it > run by family, or they leased it out, or had a manager run it for them. > Besides that, the nobility had industrial interests in the area, as they > developed mining, glass blowing, porcelain factories, etc. just run it > through the translator and you will see their revenue diversification. > Forest and Wildlife was a HUGE resource for them in Bohemia. > > Link: > http://books.google.com/books?id=ugIEAAAAMAAJ&printsec=titlepage&dq=%22topografisch+statistischer%22+schematismus+des+grossgrundbesitzes+im+koenigreiche+bohmen#v=onepage&q=%22topografisch%20statistischer%22%20schematismus%20des%20grossgrundbesitzes%20im%20koenigreiche%20bohmen&f=false > > > > On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 7:23 AM, <idirlion@me.com> wrote: > >> Sorry, all I have is this as his occupation: >> >> Furstlich Schwarzenbergischer Fasanjager Zu Peterhof In Bohmen >> >> I understand the German. >> >> Does this help? >> >> best, >> Paul >> >> On Dé Luain, 6 Feabhra, 2012, at 07:12, Aida Kraus wrote: >> >>> Do you know the village name where this Peterhof was located, because >> there >>> are several by that name? It might lead us to your family names in the >>> church registers which are partially archived in the Plzn (Pilsen) >> archives >>> and which you can access from your home computer. >>> Aida >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 5:20 AM, <idirlion@me.com> wrote: >>> >>>> My great-granddad was born in Austria 1883 (Laa an der Thaya), and I >> have >>>> his birth record, but my family tree says that his parents came from >>>> Bohemia (Peterhof 1826 and Budweiss 1855). >>>> >>>> Are any of these records online? >>>> >>>> Or do I need to order everything through the LDS? >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> Paul >>>> Oregon >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

A good source to check out noble estates in the Kingdom of Bohemia, and where their leading forestry and management personnel is listed by name, can be found at this google book link for free, it was published in 1891. http://books.google.com/books?id=pcgA4F3k-PQC&pg=PA695&dq=Topographisch+Statistischer+Schematismus+der+Grossgrundbesitzer+im+Koenigreich+Boehmen%22&cd#v=onepage&q=Title%20Page&f=false In the back of this volume (printed in "Fraktur" which are gothic letters) is an index of estate owners and estate names. You can see the multiple holdings belonging to these various estates, castles, manor, hunting lodges or abbeys having had a variety of supporting revenues from factories, breweries, mining, sawmills, brick-factories, and other industries besides their farm estates. During the Monarchy the ownership of these estates was well organized and is recorded in various schematisms which are like and an "inventory of the country's assets." Watch for the year when these enumerations were published. The link above is most likely the last one taken during the Austrian-Hungarian monarchy which lasted until end of WW1 1918. The publication above was printed in 1891. Aida

Jan, while I do not do research (I only refer people to archives where they can do their own research, or I try to find links for them to find their pertinent church register sources) I can recommend a group in Austria who have a group of genealogists doing detail research. Make a copy of your source document and send it to Dr. Guenter Ofner at this Email: guenter.ofner@chello.at requesting a cost estimate for their service. Aida -------------------------------------------- On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 1:56 AM, <jan.crawford2359@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Listers, > > I am in need of someone who would be kind enough to do some research for > me please. I first asked about the Jantsch family about 12 months ago with > some success. As I am in Australia and cannot read German or Czech I have > had limited success with any of the websites that had been recommended to > me. > > Is there anyone who would be willing to search for the family of Josef > Jantsch born 1841 in Gablonz to Anostas and Barbara (unsure of maiden name) > Jantsch. This information has been gllened from Josef’s Australian death > certificate. > > Please if there is anyone who can help me please contact me. > > Thanks in advance for your consideration > > Regards > Jan > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message