You are bringing up an interesting subject here, Laventiy, and one I am not informed on. I just know from my uncle fighting on the Isonzo Front that the Egerland Regiment stayed together, and while together, they held the lines. They might have been "supplemented" by other groups, especially German speaking Czechs. I also know that the Monarchy supported the "major regiments" under the leadership and auspices of a high ranking noble. But most ethnic regiments were staying together because of the language differences. Just for communication and understanding alone they were grouped into the same language divisions. But I believe that in one of the links I sent under the subject "Austrian Hungarian Military" there was some mentioned made as to cultural demography. It was of benefit of other ethnic Austrians to speak the German language (which was the administrative language side by side with Hungarian) and any of these two languages guaranteed better advancement for the individual. Also, there was a large group of Jewish officers serving in the reserve of that army, as much as 18%, while their presence in population was merely 5% in Austria Hungary. But it does not say how the individual ethnic groups were distributed over other regiments. What I could copy from there is this:. *"**The ethnic make-up of the enlisted ranks reflected the diversity of the empire the army served; in 1906, out of every 1000 enlisted men, there were 267 Germans, 223 Hungarians, 135 Czechs, 85 Poles, 81 Ruthenians (or Ukrainians), 67 Croats and Serbs, 64 Romanians, 38 Slovaks, 26 Slovenes, and 14 Italians.[11] > From a religious standpoint, the Austro-Hungarian army officer corps was dominated by Catholics. In 1896, out of 1000 officers, 791 were Catholics, 86 Protestants, 84 Jews, 39 Greek-Orthodox, and one Uniate."* Aida On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 3:23 PM, Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net>wrote: > / > > Any information on the percent who served in units which were not > headquartered in the draftee's recruitment district? For example, an > Egerlander assigned to a e.g. Moravian unit, or Galcian unit, etc. > > _______ > > Lavrerntiy > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aida Kraus" <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:45 AM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Marriage - Military Service and > illegitamatebirths > > > Mary, military service was a requirement and young healthy men had to > serve. However, a lot of exceptions were made in the process of > "mustering" - conscription. > For instance, when a family settled in a new area where > agricultural > population was required within the Empire, there was no military service > for the new settlers, and they were also given ten years of tax > exemption. > Actually, the conscription was very selective and not everyone > passed > through pretty stiff medical exams. Failing an eye exam alone would > make > the person "untauglich" = unfit to serve. Damages to limbs or birth > defects were also unacceptable to service, and they would not pass > conscription if they had a lung or skin diseases. Actually, most young > men > were eager to serve because they were always transferred to another area > in > the Monarchy and this afforded them travel and seeing a bit of the > "world". It was considered a set back when they did not measure up to > the > conscription requirements. But in other circumstances, for instance, > when > a young man married early to take over the family's farm and avoided > service, that was usually based on a necessity to take care of the > family, > which included older family members. The eldest son was often "passed > over" for service, or another brother stood in for the son best suited > to > run the farm. I heard from my family that the young men were taking > their > duties quite seriously and "shirking" was not looked upon very > favorably. > The Bohemians were Royalists and true to the crown, and the House of > Habsburg recognized the "Egerlander Regiment" as one of their > best. Exiled Emperor Karl of Habsburg (recently deceased at a ripe old > age) was always attending the meetings of the German Bohemians expellees > in > Germany. > Aida > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

http://focus4thefuture.com/wp-content/themes/magatheme/photos.php?rod128.gif

I think the reason they waited for so long was that the age of consent at the time was either age 24 or 26. Not wanting the hassel to argue with the parents they waited but, there were also some "illegitimate" births that were later made "legitimate" by marriage. DDorman

False.... that they married in the mid 20 had to do with the military service, most of them waited until they had completed their duty. But you can see on that list, that there were at least 3 teenage men, 17, 18 and 19, and if you figure that there were mostly only 60-80 houses in a village, you can see that those farm boys were taking over the farm from the aging family. Also, consider that not everybody is from the same age group, they are staggered throughout. The others quite obviously completed service and married later than those that were exempted from service remaining at home. Also, some nobles who were training men for special jobs in their economic fields (brewery, mining, glassmaking, tanning, leather work for horses, woodworkers, builder, brickmakers and bricklayers, masons, glass blowers, etc.) were often exempted from service and it was encouraged that the men learned a craft before they married. Aida On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 5:42 PM, <TRIPLEDE@aol.com> wrote: > I think the reason they waited for so long was that the age of consent at > the time was either age 24 or 26. Not wanting the hassel to argue with the > parents they waited but, there were also some "illegitimate" births that > were > later made "legitimate" by marriage. > > DDorman > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thank you Aide, Love getting all the background info. Elaine -----Original Message----- >From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >Sent: Feb 14, 2012 8:04 PM >To: GBHS <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> >Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Ancient trade routes through Bohemia > >>From Aida: >Here are some of the ancient trade roads overland and on rivers. This >;link shows you is the Amber Road going from the Baltic to Venice and is >many thousands of years old: >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Road >Bohemia did not have any resources for salt, which was the only >preservative during the middle ages. It was so valuable that a trade route >was developed from Linz, Passau, Regensburg, Prachatitz, and finally Prague >from where it was disposed to all of Bohemia and Moravia,. This trail was >called "Der goldene Steig" or "The golden trail" because salt was a most >valuable commodity and was often paid for in silver and gold. >http://helios.augustana.edu/~ew/des/works-of-art/su34.html >The easiest access into Bohemia was from the East via the Duchy of Moravia, >another not so easy trail went through the Bohemian forest from the South >near Bergreichenstein (Kasperske Hory) and Schuettenhofen (Susice) in the >general area of Plzen, and the easiest entry to Bohemia from the West was >along the Eger River through the Egerland flowing East toward the Elbe >River. Salt and Amber was coming in, and silver and glass was going out. >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Totally enjoyed the website, ESPECIALLY the Founder's Page! Elaine in Maine -----Original Message----- >From: TRIPLEDE@aol.com >Sent: Feb 15, 2012 3:15 PM >To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Bohemia age at marriage -- one data point > > >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Given such a small local, it's interesting that they waited so long to get married. Did they wait this long to have children too? I was surprised at the number of men who waited into their 30's. Especially in the 1700's given their lifespans!! Interesting data, that took time Dennis. Thanks Elaine -----Original Message----- >From: Dennis Nicklaus <dnicklaus@yahoo.com> >Sent: Feb 15, 2012 2:19 PM >To: "german-bohemian@rootsweb.com" <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> >Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Bohemia age at marriage -- one data point > >Earlier in this discussion, someone brought up whether men had to be able to support a family before marrying in Bohemia and how old people were when they married.  In response, I present the below data from (mostly) Bruck am Hammer (Brod nad Tichou) parish of the age at first marriage.  It shows the average age for men is 26 and women 23 when they first married. > >This is taken from my relatives in the parish records in the 1700s mostly, but a few are from the late 1600s or early 1800s. > >These are from small rural villages, roughly 50 houses (mostly Gottschau and Nakentendoerflas). > >When I was extracting my relatives from the registers, I was surprised by how late people married, and it is interesting to see the actual tables below. I believe I would find similar numbers for Damnau parish that I've gone through. > >  > >Some of the outliers, such as relatively old women marrying, come from a man remarrying an older, never-married woman after his first wife died, probably to help raise his kids (Again, in that case, it only counts as the first marriage for the woman, only the man's first marriage age would have gone into the table here). > >Earlier, Aida wrote: >>> Marriages for men at age 17 and women 16 were quite >>> common, because in "taking over the family farm" many young men could avoid military service. > > >But I find teen marriages to be pretty rare for either sex. > >Dennis > >Age at first marriage: > >male female >26 23 >24 19 >24 40 >36 28 >21 26 >24 22 >27 37 >21 22 >24 25 >22 29 >24 26 >19 19 >38 18 >23 28 >20 17 >32 24 >28 25 >26 17 >22 20 >23 20 >25 23 >24 20 >28 20 >22 21 >29 20 >22 16 >26 25 >56 24 >22 24 >42 22 >22 39 >20 18 >30 22 >30 28 >33 23 >21 22 >25 22 >22 25 >27 26 >33 26 >31 32 >24 16 >32 22 >23 21 >31 31 >25 15 >34 22 >21 22 >26 21 >32 24 >20 23 >23 27 >27 37 >31 21 >22 19 >34 24 >33 23 >28 19 >24 21 >28 20 >30 20 >25 29 >32 31 >17 22 >33 24 >27 22 >27 22 >29 22 >21 20 >30 23 >26 19 >22 31 >22 20 >21 32 > > 23 > > 17 > > 29 > > 18 > 26.67568 22 > > 26 > > 23.5375 >The last numbers are the means. >(Not a scientific or random sample, but I'm related to a decent fraction of > the population of those villages in that era.) > > >________________________________ >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Earlier in this discussion, someone brought up whether men had to be able to support a family before marrying in Bohemia and how old people were when they married.  In response, I present the below data from (mostly) Bruck am Hammer (Brod nad Tichou) parish of the age at first marriage.  It shows the average age for men is 26 and women 23 when they first married. This is taken from my relatives in the parish records in the 1700s mostly, but a few are from the late 1600s or early 1800s. These are from small rural villages, roughly 50 houses (mostly Gottschau and Nakentendoerflas). When I was extracting my relatives from the registers, I was surprised by how late people married, and it is interesting to see the actual tables below. I believe I would find similar numbers for Damnau parish that I've gone through.   Some of the outliers, such as relatively old women marrying, come from a man remarrying an older, never-married woman after his first wife died, probably to help raise his kids (Again, in that case, it only counts as the first marriage for the woman, only the man's first marriage age would have gone into the table here). Earlier, Aida wrote: >> Marriages for men at age 17 and women 16 were quite >> common, because in "taking over the family farm" many young men could avoid military service. But I find teen marriages to be pretty rare for either sex. Dennis Age at first marriage: male female 26 23 24 19 24 40 36 28 21 26 24 22 27 37 21 22 24 25 22 29 24 26 19 19 38 18 23 28 20 17 32 24 28 25 26 17 22 20 23 20 25 23 24 20 28 20 22 21 29 20 22 16 26 25 56 24 22 24 42 22 22 39 20 18 30 22 30 28 33 23 21 22 25 22 22 25 27 26 33 26 31 32 24 16 32 22 23 21 31 31 25 15 34 22 21 22 26 21 32 24 20 23 23 27 27 37 31 21 22 19 34 24 33 23 28 19 24 21 28 20 30 20 25 29 32 31 17 22 33 24 27 22 27 22 29 22 21 20 30 23 26 19 22 31 22 20 21 32 23 17 29 18  26.67568 22 26 23.5375 The last numbers are the means. (Not a scientific or random sample, but I'm related to a decent fraction of the population of those villages in that era.) ________________________________

>From Aida: Here are some of the ancient trade roads overland and on rivers. This ;link shows you is the Amber Road going from the Baltic to Venice and is many thousands of years old: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Road Bohemia did not have any resources for salt, which was the only preservative during the middle ages. It was so valuable that a trade route was developed from Linz, Passau, Regensburg, Prachatitz, and finally Prague from where it was disposed to all of Bohemia and Moravia,. This trail was called "Der goldene Steig" or "The golden trail" because salt was a most valuable commodity and was often paid for in silver and gold. http://helios.augustana.edu/~ew/des/works-of-art/su34.html The easiest access into Bohemia was from the East via the Duchy of Moravia, another not so easy trail went through the Bohemian forest from the South near Bergreichenstein (Kasperske Hory) and Schuettenhofen (Susice) in the general area of Plzen, and the easiest entry to Bohemia from the West was along the Eger River through the Egerland flowing East toward the Elbe River. Salt and Amber was coming in, and silver and glass was going out.

Aida's comment about Maritime culture and Continental culture connects for me. I've been reading a book titled: Gold and Spices; the rise of commerce in the Middle Ages by Jean Favier. Published 1998. This book is part of my quest to become more aware of life during the Middle Ages. I'm only on page 80 and have been quite impressed by the developments over short spans of time. The book itself concentrates on Trade, development of money systems, (discussion on credit development is quite facinating), trade routes - both land and sea. Had not considered how these NEW developments would effect cultural norms. But naturally they would!!!! Speaking of trade, initially trade routes were land based or river based. This limited size of cargo able to be transported. But once sea routes started to over take land/river based routes, the scale of Trade increased dramatically. There was also a shift between the counties that prospered from this trade and those that did not. When land and river routes were the norm, the Continent prospered by Trade Routes coming though their areas. (Some collected "taxes" from each and every vessel that passed by! ) That meant "goods" might be taxes by each and every organized governmental juristiction the "goods" passed though. Could get quite expensive!!!!! Actually, these "taxes" lead some "progressive thinkers" to consider alternative routes for trade. Hence, these traders looked to the sea. Then they only paid taxes at Ports of Call. This created a major shift in commerce and wealth. I would imagine it also created a major shift in cultural norms! Facinating!!! :) Check the book out on Amazon IF the above interests you. Has anyone come across a book that deals with the social/cultural norms in the Middle Ages specific to our area of interest? Elaine -----Original Message----- >From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >Sent: Feb 14, 2012 11:50 AM >To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's in Bohemia? > >Bob, you cannot apply Swedish family life to that of the continent. As I >have stated before, the maritime countries had a very different culture >than the landlocked European Interior. >Also the Northern countries were mostly Protestant and with it quite a >different culture developed versus the stout Catholic or Greek Orthodox >church influence on the mainland which was less flexible. > Aida > >On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 8:33 AM, Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> Aida, Here is a "for instance" from my Swedish family. My gr-grandfather >> Jon Paulson came from a family of itinerant farm laborers who moved >> from place to place to find work. The boys were "farmed out" at a very >> early age to work. They lived in a Backstugen which nothing was more than >> a dugout in the side of a hill. >> Anyway, Jon meet Anna Katrina, then a widow, he was 20 she was 31. Anna >> gave birth to a son and continued to live with her parents. >> Jon traveled to a neighboring parish some 50 miles away to find work. He >> fathered another child four years later and then Jon and Anna Katrina were >> married and they lived >> together near where Jon was working. They had two more children before the >> family emigrated in 1893. Jon had preceded the family, coming to America >> by four years where he >> worked as a surveyour on the Great Northern RR. >> Bob >> On Feb 14, 2012, at 12:48 AM, Aida Kraus wrote: >> >> > Bob, I have never heard of this, so I really cannot say. Most of the >> > Egerland families supported one another when the chips were down. But >> it >> > could have been different during industrial development areas in the late >> > 19th century. I understood that the question was posed for ancestors in >> > the 18th century when agricultural life was still very dominant. Having >> a >> > concubine would have been possible only for someone who could afford >> > "keeping a woman", like the nobility, statesmen, people who had jobs away >> > from their homebase. And that does not include farmers. Bohemia was >> > nothing like "England" who traded worldwide being an island. Bohemia >> was a >> > landlocked area where most of the families were stout Catholics and the >> > financial status among them was not as crass between rich and poor as it >> > was in England for many centuries. The poor on the continent were not >> > quite as destitute as in Britain, because the Monarchy made the Nobility >> > responsible for the welfare of the people in their regions. There was a >> > poor house in every village to care for widows with families or infirm >> > people; and the nobility would either provide financial help or offer >> > employment in the country villages and the same happened in the cities, >> > where poor people were supported by the Burghers and often even the >> > guilds. Do not mix up the stories you hear from Ireland, England, or >> any >> > other places, because it was a very regulated life in the Austrian >> > Hungarian Monarchy. Even new settlers to a new area were provided with a >> > newly built farm house and acreage, they never had to live in sod houses >> or >> > fend for themselves. If there was a lack of some kind due to tragedy in >> a >> > family, then the churches would step in to provide the necessities on a >> > community caring level. Our people were not as kind to traveling folks, >> > but natives in villages and cities were taken care of by their relatives, >> > neighbors, poor houses, and church alms. >> > However, it is realistic enough that it would not preclude that some >> > babies were born on the "other side of the blanket". Children, in >> general, >> > were needed and very welcome. The larger the family, the stronger the >> > entire family, because they had "enough hands" to work. Children made >> a >> > family "wealthy" because they started to contribute to the farm income >> very >> > early and were taught raising small animals and gathering of wild >> > growing food in nature (mushrooms, nettles, rosehips, wild fruit, roots >> as >> > well as vegetables and fruit from their gardens) which was the basis for >> > their daily meals. The children took care of this from 6 - 14 years of >> > age, and then they generally left the family thereafter when they >> > apprenticed for a job. Marriages for men at age 17 and women 16 were >> quite >> > common, because in "taking over the family farm" many young men could >> avoid >> > military service. >> > Aida >> > >> > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> >> wrote: >> > >> >> Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not marry until the man >> could >> >> prove that he was finically able to support a family? >> >> I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he community did not >> want >> >> to support a family that was not able to provide for itself >> >> >> >> On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: >> >> >> >>> Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian Army (and please don't forget >> >> that >> >>> that this Army existed for 400 years) all soldiers of lower ranks were >> >>> not allowed to marry while in service. It was different in officers >> >> ranks, >> >>> but then the father of the bride had to pay a dowry of 20,000 Kronen as >> >>> "Kaution" (security). I do not know the exact legal ramification on >> >> that, >> >>> so you must read up on it. I just know the story from our family, >> where >> >> my >> >>> aunt's arguments with her father were fierce, because she desired to >> >>> receive that money from him for her marriage. Since my grandfather >> had 6 >> >>> daughters, he most certainly could not single out one of them with this >> >>> privilege. >> >>> And yes, these entries you found in the registers are indeed these >> >>> "early born" children who were declared legitimate as soon as the >> father >> >>> came back from his tour of duty. The Church was understanding in >> this, >> >>> because the couple was not able to marry while the groom was serving in >> >> the >> >>> Military. >> >>> Aida >> >>> >> >>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Aide, >> >>>> >> >>>> Wondering about something you wrote below about Military Service, >> >> Marriage >> >>>> and Births. >> >>>> >> >>>> Sometimes I notice in church registers that a woman gives birth to a >> >> child >> >>>> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later date, it appears a Father's >> name >> >>>> was added and illigitamet is crossed out and ligitamete added. >> >>>> >> >>>> Would this be likely one of those times when the Father was away with >> >> the >> >>>> military? Would adding a Fathers name in such a situation happen >> fairly >> >>>> regularly? >> >>>> >> >>>> Speaking of Military Service. In peace time ( was there any? ), what >> was >> >>>> the requirement of males to military service? Did they ALL have to >> >> service >> >>>> or was it voluntary? >> >>>> >> >>>> Thanks again, >> >>>> >> >>>> Elaine in Maine >> >>>> >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >> >>>>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM >> >>>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in >> >> 1700's >> >>>> in Bohemia? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood that our very Catholic families >> who >> >>>> were >> >>>>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl were polygamous. What you are >> >>>>> encountering is this. The Utschig were a HUGE family. Every family >> >> had >> >>>>> many children, They became each others sponsors at birth and so the >> >> same >> >>>>> first names come up again and again. If the births were only 3 or 7 >> >>>> months >> >>>>> apart, then you must look into the names of the father and mother, >> and >> >>>> even >> >>>>> there you may encounter the same names. So, since no house nunbers >> are >> >>>>> given, you have to diagram your family members with their birth >> dates. >> >>>>> Eventually you will find out into which families they could they fit >> >> it. >> >>>>> This is just your guideline. >> >>>>> I had a similar situation where three brothers had children and >> >>>>> all of them used the same first names over and over again. And >> then, >> >> the >> >>>>> children of the NEXT generation were given the exactly same names by >> >> their >> >>>>> related sponsors, which of course were family member, brothers >> sisters, >> >>>>> cousins, and still - to this day - that whole clan is somewhat of a >> >>>> puzzle >> >>>>> to what family they belong; but it was not unusual that a woman gave >> >>>> birth >> >>>>> to 19 children.... one every year until menopause.. That does not >> mean >> >>>> that >> >>>>> they all survived, but they are, or course, listed as births in the >> >>>> church >> >>>>> register. So go then to the death register and see who was listed >> >> there >> >>>>> and there they also give the names of the parents. It will help you >> to >> >>>>> sort out the families. If you compare birth register to death >> register >> >>>> you >> >>>>> will find more clarity. >> >>>>> Go back as far as you can and write down the names of the >> >> couples >> >>>>> (meaning families of siblings). Then, write down the names of their >> >>>>> children and next to it the birth date and if you find a death entry >> as >> >>>>> well...... >> >>>>> And then see, how they fit. >> >>>>> And this is the way you can sort it out. >> >>>>> Good luck. >> >>>>> Birth of 18 children is absolutely possible, we have found that many >> >>>> times >> >>>>> and from the same couple. Thre are also multiple marriages, but >> forget >> >>>>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were far to religious. Pre marital >> >> birth >> >>>> of >> >>>>> children are possible, because the men were not able to marry while >> in >> >>>>> military service and could not wait that long. They usually married >> >>>>> immediately when they were released. >> >>>>> As far as children born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my >> >>>>> mother's side gave birth to 13 children in the late 1800, of which 7 >> >> lived >> >>>>> through their childhood diseases which killed many of their siblings. >> >> The >> >>>>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, Diphteria, whooping cough, >> "Pocken" >> >>>>> which is smallpox and disentery. >> >>>>> They solely relied on herbal medicines then. >> >>>>> Aida >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> >> >> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife >> >> (polygamy) >> >>>> in >> >>>>>> the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines? (I understand >> >> in >> >>>>>> Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of men, >> so >> >>>> many >> >>>>>> having been killed in wars.) >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as being >> >> Anna >> >>>>>> Catharina. I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina >> >>>> Pichl/Büchl), >> >>>>>> but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate >> >>>> marriages. >> >>>>>> Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who born >> him >> >>>> many >> >>>>>> children. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina before >> >> the >> >>>>>> 1728 marriage I found. This is important to me because my 3rd great >> >>>>>> grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed like >> >> in >> >>>>>> the later records. No haus numbers, no names of parents. Two >> >> children >> >>>>>> born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart. The rest of the >> >>>> children >> >>>>>> are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna Catharina. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first Anna >> >>>>>> Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned above >> who >> >>>> were >> >>>>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the other >> in >> >>>> 1739 >> >>>>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between). So my theory >> >> on >> >>>> the >> >>>>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold up. Too many children born in between >> >>>> 1729 >> >>>>>> and 1739. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I hope this makes sense. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Mary >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> >>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >>>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> >>>> without >> >>>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> >>>>> ------------------------------- >> >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> >> without >> >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> >>>> ------------------------------- >> >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> >> without >> >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >>>> >> >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> >>> ------------------------------- >> >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscr >> >> >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hum!!!! This discussion brings up an other interesting question - Naming patterns. I was under the impression the first born Son was usually named for the Father's Father. So what IF this was an illegitimate male child? What happened then? Elaine in Maine -----Original Message----- >From: Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> >Sent: Feb 14, 2012 11:33 AM >To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's in Bohemia? > >Aida, Here is a "for instance" from my Swedish family. My gr-grandfather Jon Paulson came from a family of itinerant farm laborers who moved >from place to place to find work. The boys were "farmed out" at a very early age to work. They lived in a Backstugen which nothing was more than a dugout in the side of a hill. >Anyway, Jon meet Anna Katrina, then a widow, he was 20 she was 31. Anna gave birth to a son and continued to live with her parents. >Jon traveled to a neighboring parish some 50 miles away to find work. He fathered another child four years later and then Jon and Anna Katrina were married and they lived >together near where Jon was working. They had two more children before the family emigrated in 1893. Jon had preceded the family, coming to America by four years where he >worked as a surveyour on the Great Northern RR. >Bob >On Feb 14, 2012, at 12:48 AM, Aida Kraus wrote: > >> Bob, I have never heard of this, so I really cannot say. Most of the >> Egerland families supported one another when the chips were down. But it >> could have been different during industrial development areas in the late >> 19th century. I understood that the question was posed for ancestors in >> the 18th century when agricultural life was still very dominant. Having a >> concubine would have been possible only for someone who could afford >> "keeping a woman", like the nobility, statesmen, people who had jobs away >> from their homebase. And that does not include farmers. Bohemia was >> nothing like "England" who traded worldwide being an island. Bohemia was a >> landlocked area where most of the families were stout Catholics and the >> financial status among them was not as crass between rich and poor as it >> was in England for many centuries. The poor on the continent were not >> quite as destitute as in Britain, because the Monarchy made the Nobility >> responsible for the welfare of the people in their regions. There was a >> poor house in every village to care for widows with families or infirm >> people; and the nobility would either provide financial help or offer >> employment in the country villages and the same happened in the cities, >> where poor people were supported by the Burghers and often even the >> guilds. Do not mix up the stories you hear from Ireland, England, or any >> other places, because it was a very regulated life in the Austrian >> Hungarian Monarchy. Even new settlers to a new area were provided with a >> newly built farm house and acreage, they never had to live in sod houses or >> fend for themselves. If there was a lack of some kind due to tragedy in a >> family, then the churches would step in to provide the necessities on a >> community caring level. Our people were not as kind to traveling folks, >> but natives in villages and cities were taken care of by their relatives, >> neighbors, poor houses, and church alms. >> However, it is realistic enough that it would not preclude that some >> babies were born on the "other side of the blanket". Children, in general, >> were needed and very welcome. The larger the family, the stronger the >> entire family, because they had "enough hands" to work. Children made a >> family "wealthy" because they started to contribute to the farm income very >> early and were taught raising small animals and gathering of wild >> growing food in nature (mushrooms, nettles, rosehips, wild fruit, roots as >> well as vegetables and fruit from their gardens) which was the basis for >> their daily meals. The children took care of this from 6 - 14 years of >> age, and then they generally left the family thereafter when they >> apprenticed for a job. Marriages for men at age 17 and women 16 were quite >> common, because in "taking over the family farm" many young men could avoid >> military service. >> Aida >> >> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>> Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not marry until the man could >>> prove that he was finically able to support a family? >>> I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he community did not want >>> to support a family that was not able to provide for itself >>> >>> On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: >>> >>>> Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian Army (and please don't forget >>> that >>>> that this Army existed for 400 years) all soldiers of lower ranks were >>>> not allowed to marry while in service. It was different in officers >>> ranks, >>>> but then the father of the bride had to pay a dowry of 20,000 Kronen as >>>> "Kaution" (security). I do not know the exact legal ramification on >>> that, >>>> so you must read up on it. I just know the story from our family, where >>> my >>>> aunt's arguments with her father were fierce, because she desired to >>>> receive that money from him for her marriage. Since my grandfather had 6 >>>> daughters, he most certainly could not single out one of them with this >>>> privilege. >>>> And yes, these entries you found in the registers are indeed these >>>> "early born" children who were declared legitimate as soon as the father >>>> came back from his tour of duty. The Church was understanding in this, >>>> because the couple was not able to marry while the groom was serving in >>> the >>>> Military. >>>> Aida >>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Aide, >>>>> >>>>> Wondering about something you wrote below about Military Service, >>> Marriage >>>>> and Births. >>>>> >>>>> Sometimes I notice in church registers that a woman gives birth to a >>> child >>>>> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later date, it appears a Father's name >>>>> was added and illigitamet is crossed out and ligitamete added. >>>>> >>>>> Would this be likely one of those times when the Father was away with >>> the >>>>> military? Would adding a Fathers name in such a situation happen fairly >>>>> regularly? >>>>> >>>>> Speaking of Military Service. In peace time ( was there any? ), what was >>>>> the requirement of males to military service? Did they ALL have to >>> service >>>>> or was it voluntary? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks again, >>>>> >>>>> Elaine in Maine >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >>>>>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM >>>>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >>>>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in >>> 1700's >>>>> in Bohemia? >>>>>> >>>>>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood that our very Catholic families who >>>>> were >>>>>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl were polygamous. What you are >>>>>> encountering is this. The Utschig were a HUGE family. Every family >>> had >>>>>> many children, They became each others sponsors at birth and so the >>> same >>>>>> first names come up again and again. If the births were only 3 or 7 >>>>> months >>>>>> apart, then you must look into the names of the father and mother, and >>>>> even >>>>>> there you may encounter the same names. So, since no house nunbers are >>>>>> given, you have to diagram your family members with their birth dates. >>>>>> Eventually you will find out into which families they could they fit >>> it. >>>>>> This is just your guideline. >>>>>> I had a similar situation where three brothers had children and >>>>>> all of them used the same first names over and over again. And then, >>> the >>>>>> children of the NEXT generation were given the exactly same names by >>> their >>>>>> related sponsors, which of course were family member, brothers sisters, >>>>>> cousins, and still - to this day - that whole clan is somewhat of a >>>>> puzzle >>>>>> to what family they belong; but it was not unusual that a woman gave >>>>> birth >>>>>> to 19 children.... one every year until menopause.. That does not mean >>>>> that >>>>>> they all survived, but they are, or course, listed as births in the >>>>> church >>>>>> register. So go then to the death register and see who was listed >>> there >>>>>> and there they also give the names of the parents. It will help you to >>>>>> sort out the families. If you compare birth register to death register >>>>> you >>>>>> will find more clarity. >>>>>> Go back as far as you can and write down the names of the >>> couples >>>>>> (meaning families of siblings). Then, write down the names of their >>>>>> children and next to it the birth date and if you find a death entry as >>>>>> well...... >>>>>> And then see, how they fit. >>>>>> And this is the way you can sort it out. >>>>>> Good luck. >>>>>> Birth of 18 children is absolutely possible, we have found that many >>>>> times >>>>>> and from the same couple. Thre are also multiple marriages, but forget >>>>>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were far to religious. Pre marital >>> birth >>>>> of >>>>>> children are possible, because the men were not able to marry while in >>>>>> military service and could not wait that long. They usually married >>>>>> immediately when they were released. >>>>>> As far as children born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my >>>>>> mother's side gave birth to 13 children in the late 1800, of which 7 >>> lived >>>>>> through their childhood diseases which killed many of their siblings. >>> The >>>>>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, Diphteria, whooping cough, "Pocken" >>>>>> which is smallpox and disentery. >>>>>> They solely relied on herbal medicines then. >>>>>> Aida >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> >>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife >>> (polygamy) >>>>> in >>>>>>> the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines? (I understand >>> in >>>>>>> Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of men, so >>>>> many >>>>>>> having been killed in wars.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as being >>> Anna >>>>>>> Catharina. I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina >>>>> Pichl/Büchl), >>>>>>> but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate >>>>> marriages. >>>>>>> Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who born him >>>>> many >>>>>>> children. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina before >>> the >>>>>>> 1728 marriage I found. This is important to me because my 3rd great >>>>>>> grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed like >>> in >>>>>>> the later records. No haus numbers, no names of parents. Two >>> children >>>>>>> born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart. The rest of the >>>>> children >>>>>>> are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna Catharina. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first Anna >>>>>>> Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned above who >>>>> were >>>>>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the other in >>>>> 1739 >>>>>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between). So my theory >>> on >>>>> the >>>>>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold up. Too many children born in between >>>>> 1729 >>>>>>> and 1739. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I hope this makes sense. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mary >>>>>>> >>>>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>>> without >>>>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>>> >>>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without >>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without >>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscr > > >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Bob and All, I notice the age difference between Jon and Anna Katrina. I've been surprised to find similar types of age differences with woman being older than men, sometimes considerably so. Seems the cultural norms may not have been as strong as some of us were lead to believe. This discussion has been quite interesting given all the variations in "lifestyle" we are coming across. So much for: man meets woman, man asks woman's Father for her hand, Man and Woman get married, woman has children and children and children, some children die, and life goes on ....... The first part of this equation seems to follow many more "accepted" paths than I was previously aware of. So this leads to another question. We often hear of and see pictures of "FUN" celebratory weddings happening in villages and towns. Was this actually more a tradition of the more well off folks? A tradition we have kinda been lead to believe most Brides and Grooms took part in? As ya can see, I LOVE gaining a broader understanding of the cultural aspects of our ancestors lives. To me, this adds such depth to someone was born, they married, they died! This is a facinating discussion! :) Elaine -----Original Message----- >From: Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> >Sent: Feb 14, 2012 11:33 AM >To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's in Bohemia? > >Aida, Here is a "for instance" from my Swedish family. My gr-grandfather Jon Paulson came from a family of itinerant farm laborers who moved >from place to place to find work. The boys were "farmed out" at a very early age to work. They lived in a Backstugen which nothing was more than a dugout in the side of a hill. >Anyway, Jon meet Anna Katrina, then a widow, he was 20 she was 31. Anna gave birth to a son and continued to live with her parents. >Jon traveled to a neighboring parish some 50 miles away to find work. He fathered another child four years later and then Jon and Anna Katrina were married and they lived >together near where Jon was working. They had two more children before the family emigrated in 1893. Jon had preceded the family, coming to America by four years where he >worked as a surveyour on the Great Northern RR. >Bob >On Feb 14, 2012, at 12:48 AM, Aida Kraus wrote: > >> Bob, I have never heard of this, so I really cannot say. Most of the >> Egerland families supported one another when the chips were down. But it >> could have been different during industrial development areas in the late >> 19th century. I understood that the question was posed for ancestors in >> the 18th century when agricultural life was still very dominant. Having a >> concubine would have been possible only for someone who could afford >> "keeping a woman", like the nobility, statesmen, people who had jobs away >> from their homebase. And that does not include farmers. Bohemia was >> nothing like "England" who traded worldwide being an island. Bohemia was a >> landlocked area where most of the families were stout Catholics and the >> financial status among them was not as crass between rich and poor as it >> was in England for many centuries. The poor on the continent were not >> quite as destitute as in Britain, because the Monarchy made the Nobility >> responsible for the welfare of the people in their regions. There was a >> poor house in every village to care for widows with families or infirm >> people; and the nobility would either provide financial help or offer >> employment in the country villages and the same happened in the cities, >> where poor people were supported by the Burghers and often even the >> guilds. Do not mix up the stories you hear from Ireland, England, or any >> other places, because it was a very regulated life in the Austrian >> Hungarian Monarchy. Even new settlers to a new area were provided with a >> newly built farm house and acreage, they never had to live in sod houses or >> fend for themselves. If there was a lack of some kind due to tragedy in a >> family, then the churches would step in to provide the necessities on a >> community caring level. Our people were not as kind to traveling folks, >> but natives in villages and cities were taken care of by their relatives, >> neighbors, poor houses, and church alms. >> However, it is realistic enough that it would not preclude that some >> babies were born on the "other side of the blanket". Children, in general, >> were needed and very welcome. The larger the family, the stronger the >> entire family, because they had "enough hands" to work. Children made a >> family "wealthy" because they started to contribute to the farm income very >> early and were taught raising small animals and gathering of wild >> growing food in nature (mushrooms, nettles, rosehips, wild fruit, roots as >> well as vegetables and fruit from their gardens) which was the basis for >> their daily meals. The children took care of this from 6 - 14 years of >> age, and then they generally left the family thereafter when they >> apprenticed for a job. Marriages for men at age 17 and women 16 were quite >> common, because in "taking over the family farm" many young men could avoid >> military service. >> Aida >> >> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>> Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not marry until the man could >>> prove that he was finically able to support a family? >>> I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he community did not want >>> to support a family that was not able to provide for itself >>> >>> On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: >>> >>>> Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian Army (and please don't forget >>> that >>>> that this Army existed for 400 years) all soldiers of lower ranks were >>>> not allowed to marry while in service. It was different in officers >>> ranks, >>>> but then the father of the bride had to pay a dowry of 20,000 Kronen as >>>> "Kaution" (security). I do not know the exact legal ramification on >>> that, >>>> so you must read up on it. I just know the story from our family, where >>> my >>>> aunt's arguments with her father were fierce, because she desired to >>>> receive that money from him for her marriage. Since my grandfather had 6 >>>> daughters, he most certainly could not single out one of them with this >>>> privilege. >>>> And yes, these entries you found in the registers are indeed these >>>> "early born" children who were declared legitimate as soon as the father >>>> came back from his tour of duty. The Church was understanding in this, >>>> because the couple was not able to marry while the groom was serving in >>> the >>>> Military. >>>> Aida >>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Aide, >>>>> >>>>> Wondering about something you wrote below about Military Service, >>> Marriage >>>>> and Births. >>>>> >>>>> Sometimes I notice in church registers that a woman gives birth to a >>> child >>>>> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later date, it appears a Father's name >>>>> was added and illigitamet is crossed out and ligitamete added. >>>>> >>>>> Would this be likely one of those times when the Father was away with >>> the >>>>> military? Would adding a Fathers name in such a situation happen fairly >>>>> regularly? >>>>> >>>>> Speaking of Military Service. In peace time ( was there any? ), what was >>>>> the requirement of males to military service? Did they ALL have to >>> service >>>>> or was it voluntary? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks again, >>>>> >>>>> Elaine in Maine >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >>>>>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM >>>>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >>>>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in >>> 1700's >>>>> in Bohemia? >>>>>> >>>>>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood that our very Catholic families who >>>>> were >>>>>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl were polygamous. What you are >>>>>> encountering is this. The Utschig were a HUGE family. Every family >>> had >>>>>> many children, They became each others sponsors at birth and so the >>> same >>>>>> first names come up again and again. If the births were only 3 or 7 >>>>> months >>>>>> apart, then you must look into the names of the father and mother, and >>>>> even >>>>>> there you may encounter the same names. So, since no house nunbers are >>>>>> given, you have to diagram your family members with their birth dates. >>>>>> Eventually you will find out into which families they could they fit >>> it. >>>>>> This is just your guideline. >>>>>> I had a similar situation where three brothers had children and >>>>>> all of them used the same first names over and over again. And then, >>> the >>>>>> children of the NEXT generation were given the exactly same names by >>> their >>>>>> related sponsors, which of course were family member, brothers sisters, >>>>>> cousins, and still - to this day - that whole clan is somewhat of a >>>>> puzzle >>>>>> to what family they belong; but it was not unusual that a woman gave >>>>> birth >>>>>> to 19 children.... one every year until menopause.. That does not mean >>>>> that >>>>>> they all survived, but they are, or course, listed as births in the >>>>> church >>>>>> register. So go then to the death register and see who was listed >>> there >>>>>> and there they also give the names of the parents. It will help you to >>>>>> sort out the families. If you compare birth register to death register >>>>> you >>>>>> will find more clarity. >>>>>> Go back as far as you can and write down the names of the >>> couples >>>>>> (meaning families of siblings). Then, write down the names of their >>>>>> children and next to it the birth date and if you find a death entry as >>>>>> well...... >>>>>> And then see, how they fit. >>>>>> And this is the way you can sort it out. >>>>>> Good luck. >>>>>> Birth of 18 children is absolutely possible, we have found that many >>>>> times >>>>>> and from the same couple. Thre are also multiple marriages, but forget >>>>>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were far to religious. Pre marital >>> birth >>>>> of >>>>>> children are possible, because the men were not able to marry while in >>>>>> military service and could not wait that long. They usually married >>>>>> immediately when they were released. >>>>>> As far as children born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my >>>>>> mother's side gave birth to 13 children in the late 1800, of which 7 >>> lived >>>>>> through their childhood diseases which killed many of their siblings. >>> The >>>>>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, Diphteria, whooping cough, "Pocken" >>>>>> which is smallpox and disentery. >>>>>> They solely relied on herbal medicines then. >>>>>> Aida >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> >>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife >>> (polygamy) >>>>> in >>>>>>> the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines? (I understand >>> in >>>>>>> Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of men, so >>>>> many >>>>>>> having been killed in wars.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as being >>> Anna >>>>>>> Catharina. I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina >>>>> Pichl/Büchl), >>>>>>> but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate >>>>> marriages. >>>>>>> Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who born him >>>>> many >>>>>>> children. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina before >>> the >>>>>>> 1728 marriage I found. This is important to me because my 3rd great >>>>>>> grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed like >>> in >>>>>>> the later records. No haus numbers, no names of parents. Two >>> children >>>>>>> born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart. The rest of the >>>>> children >>>>>>> are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna Catharina. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first Anna >>>>>>> Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned above who >>>>> were >>>>>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the other in >>>>> 1739 >>>>>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between). So my theory >>> on >>>>> the >>>>>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold up. Too many children born in between >>>>> 1729 >>>>>>> and 1739. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I hope this makes sense. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mary >>>>>>> >>>>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>>> without >>>>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>>> >>>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without >>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without >>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscr > > >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Elaine,   It would seem that all customs varied widely, not only from country to counry, but sometimes from village to village.   We like to see information in our neat boxes in our sortware programs. But life has never been that way. None of my German speaking families, from various parts of the German speaking world, ever followed such naming customs. And they certainly weren't stirct about spelling in the distant past.   English law has always been restrictive, especially where women or blacks were concerned. In French  and Spanish St Louis white women could own a house and a business. So did one black woman. But when  St. Louis  became part of the US, and adopted the US  version of English law, this was no longer allowed. Even the property a woman had inheirited from her family now became the property of her husband! LaVerne Researching  Bachmann, Boehmke, Hemmann, Heimann, Landl, Linhardt, Otto, Pietschmann, Roehl, Sehler, Sievers, Telle, Zachariae, Zeitler --- On Tue, 2/14/12, polloe@earthlink.net <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: From: polloe@earthlink.net <polloe@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's in Bohemia? To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 2:19 PM Hum!!!! This discussion brings up an other interesting question - Naming patterns. I was under the impression the first born Son was usually named for the Father's Father.  So what IF this was an illegitimate male child?  What happened then? Elaine in Maine -----Original Message----- >From: Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> >Sent: Feb 14, 2012 11:33 AM >To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's in    Bohemia? > >Aida, Here is a "for instance" from my Swedish family. My gr-grandfather Jon Paulson came from a family of itinerant farm laborers who moved >from place to place to find work. The boys were "farmed out" at a very early age to work. They lived in a Backstugen which nothing  was more than a dugout in the side of a hill. >Anyway, Jon meet Anna Katrina, then  a widow, he was 20 she was 31. Anna gave birth to a son and continued to live with her parents. >Jon traveled to a neighboring parish some 50 miles away to find work.  He fathered another child four years later and then Jon and Anna Katrina were married and they lived >together near where Jon was working. They had two more children before the family  emigrated in 1893. Jon had preceded  the family, coming to America by four years where he >worked as a surveyour on the Great Northern RR. >Bob >On Feb 14, 2012, at 12:48 AM, Aida Kraus wrote: > >> Bob, I have never heard of this, so I really cannot say.  Most of the >> Egerland families supported one another when the chips were down.   But it >> could have been different during industrial development areas in the late >> 19th century.  I understood that the question was posed for ancestors in >> the 18th century when agricultural life was still very dominant.  Having a >> concubine would have been possible only for someone who could afford >> "keeping a woman", like the nobility, statesmen, people who had jobs away >> from their homebase.  And that does not include farmers.  Bohemia was >> nothing like "England" who traded worldwide being an island.  Bohemia was a >> landlocked area where most of the families were stout Catholics and the >> financial status among them was not as crass between rich and poor as it >> was in England for many centuries.  The poor on the continent were not >> quite as destitute as in Britain, because the Monarchy made the Nobility >> responsible for the welfare of the people in their regions. There was a >> poor house in every village to care for widows with families or infirm >> people;  and the nobility would either provide financial help or offer >> employment in the country villages and the same happened in the cities, >> where poor people were supported by the Burghers and often even the >> guilds.  Do not mix up the stories you  hear from Ireland, England, or any >> other places, because it was a very regulated life in the Austrian >> Hungarian Monarchy. Even new settlers to a new area were provided with a >> newly built farm house and acreage, they never had to live in sod houses or >> fend for themselves.  If there was a lack of some kind due to tragedy in a >> family,  then the churches would step in to provide the necessities on a >> community caring level.  Our people were not as kind to traveling folks, >> but natives in villages and cities were taken care of by their relatives, >> neighbors, poor houses, and church alms. >>      However, it is realistic enough that it would not preclude that some >> babies were born on the "other side of the blanket".  Children, in general, >> were needed and very welcome. The larger the family, the stronger the >> entire family,  because they had "enough hands" to work.   Children made a >> family "wealthy" because they started to contribute to the farm income very >> early and were taught raising small animals and gathering of wild >> growing food in nature (mushrooms, nettles, rosehips, wild fruit, roots as >> well as vegetables and fruit from their gardens)  which was the basis for >> their daily meals.  The children took care of this from 6 - 14 years of >> age, and then they generally left the family thereafter when they >> apprenticed for a job.  Marriages for men at age 17 and women 16 were quite >> common, because in "taking over the family farm" many young men could avoid >> military service. >>    Aida >> >> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>> Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not marry until the  man could >>> prove that he was finically able to support a family? >>> I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he community did not want >>> to support a family that was not able to provide for itself >>> >>> On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: >>> >>>> Yes, exactly!  In the Austrian Hungarian Army (and please don't forget >>> that >>>> that this Army existed for 400 years)  all soldiers of lower ranks were >>>> not allowed to marry while in service. It was different in officers >>> ranks, >>>> but then the father of the bride had to pay a dowry of 20,000 Kronen as >>>> "Kaution" (security).  I do not know the exact legal ramification on >>> that, >>>> so you must read up on it.  I just know the story from our family, where >>> my >>>> aunt's arguments with her  father were fierce, because she desired to >>>> receive that money from him for her marriage.  Since my grandfather had 6 >>>> daughters, he most certainly could not single out one of them with this >>>> privilege. >>>>     And yes, these entries you found in the registers are indeed these >>>> "early born" children who were declared legitimate as soon as the father >>>> came back from his tour of duty.   The Church was understanding in this, >>>> because the couple was not able to marry while the groom was serving in >>> the >>>> Military. >>>>   Aida >>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Aide, >>>>> >>>>> Wondering about something you wrote below about Military Service, >>> Marriage >>>>> and Births. >>>>> >>>>> Sometimes I notice in church registers that a woman gives birth to a >>> child >>>>> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later date, it appears a Father's name >>>>> was added and illigitamet is crossed out and ligitamete added. >>>>> >>>>> Would this be likely one of those times when the Father was away with >>> the >>>>> military?  Would adding a Fathers name in such a situation happen fairly >>>>> regularly? >>>>> >>>>> Speaking of Military Service. In peace time ( was there any? ), what was >>>>> the requirement of males to military service?  Did they ALL have to >>> service >>>>> or was it voluntary? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks again, >>>>> >>>>> Elaine in Maine >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >>>>>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM >>>>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >>>>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in >>> 1700's >>>>> in   Bohemia? >>>>>> >>>>>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood that our very Catholic families who >>>>> were >>>>>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl were polygamous.  What you are >>>>>> encountering is this.  The Utschig were a HUGE family.  Every family >>> had >>>>>> many children, They became each others sponsors at birth and so the >>> same >>>>>> first names come up again and again.  If the births were only 3 or 7 >>>>> months >>>>>> apart, then you must look into the names of the father and mother, and >>>>> even >>>>>> there you may encounter the same names.  So, since no house nunbers are >>>>>> given, you have to diagram your family members with their birth dates. >>>>>> Eventually you will find out into which families they could they fit >>> it. >>>>>> This is just your guideline. >>>>>>      I had a similar situation where three brothers had children  and >>>>>> all of them used the same first names over and over again.   And then, >>> the >>>>>> children of the NEXT generation were given the exactly same names by >>> their >>>>>> related sponsors, which of course were family member, brothers sisters, >>>>>> cousins,  and still - to this day - that whole clan is somewhat of a >>>>> puzzle >>>>>> to what family they belong;  but it was not unusual that a woman gave >>>>> birth >>>>>> to 19 children.... one every year until menopause.. That does not mean >>>>> that >>>>>> they all survived, but they are, or course,  listed as births in the >>>>> church >>>>>> register.  So go then to the death register and see who was listed >>> there >>>>>> and there they also give the names of the parents.  It will help you to >>>>>> sort out the families.  If you compare birth register to death register >>>>> you >>>>>> will find more clarity. >>>>>>       Go back as far as you can and write down the names of the >>> couples >>>>>> (meaning families of siblings).  Then, write down the names of their >>>>>> children and next to it the birth date and if you find a death entry as >>>>>> well...... >>>>>> And then see, how they fit. >>>>>> And this is the way you can sort it out. >>>>>>   Good luck. >>>>>> Birth of  18 children is absolutely possible, we have found that many >>>>> times >>>>>> and from the same couple. Thre are also multiple marriages, but forget >>>>>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were far to religious.  Pre marital >>> birth >>>>> of >>>>>> children are possible, because the men were not able to marry while in >>>>>> military service and could not wait that long.  They usually married >>>>>> immediately when they were released. >>>>>>  As far as children born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my >>>>>> mother's side gave birth to 13 children in the late 1800, of which 7 >>> lived >>>>>> through their childhood diseases which killed many of their siblings. >>> The >>>>>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, Diphteria, whooping cough, "Pocken" >>>>>> which is  smallpox and disentery. >>>>>> They solely relied on herbal medicines then. >>>>>>   Aida >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> >>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife >>> (polygamy) >>>>> in >>>>>>> the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines?  (I understand >>> in >>>>>>> Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of men, so >>>>> many >>>>>>> having been killed in wars.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as being >>> Anna >>>>>>> Catharina.  I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina >>>>> Pichl/Büchl), >>>>>>> but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate >>>>> marriages. >>>>>>> Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who born him >>>>> many >>>>>>> children. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina before >>> the >>>>>>> 1728 marriage I found.  This is important to me because my 3rd great >>>>>>> grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed like >>> in >>>>>>> the later records.  No haus numbers, no names of parents.  Two >>> children >>>>>>> born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart.  The rest of the >>>>> children >>>>>>> are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna Catharina. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first Anna >>>>>>> Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned above who >>>>> were >>>>>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the other in >>>>> 1739 >>>>>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between).  So my theory >>> on >>>>> the >>>>>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold up.  Too many children born in between >>>>> 1729 >>>>>>> and 1739. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Any insight would be greatly appreciated.  I hope this makes sense. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mary >>>>>>> >>>>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>>> without >>>>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>>> >>>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without >>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without >>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscr > > >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Aida, Here is a "for instance" from my Swedish family. My gr-grandfather Jon Paulson came from a family of itinerant farm laborers who moved from place to place to find work. The boys were "farmed out" at a very early age to work. They lived in a Backstugen which nothing was more than a dugout in the side of a hill. Anyway, Jon meet Anna Katrina, then a widow, he was 20 she was 31. Anna gave birth to a son and continued to live with her parents. Jon traveled to a neighboring parish some 50 miles away to find work. He fathered another child four years later and then Jon and Anna Katrina were married and they lived together near where Jon was working. They had two more children before the family emigrated in 1893. Jon had preceded the family, coming to America by four years where he worked as a surveyour on the Great Northern RR. Bob On Feb 14, 2012, at 12:48 AM, Aida Kraus wrote: > Bob, I have never heard of this, so I really cannot say. Most of the > Egerland families supported one another when the chips were down. But it > could have been different during industrial development areas in the late > 19th century. I understood that the question was posed for ancestors in > the 18th century when agricultural life was still very dominant. Having a > concubine would have been possible only for someone who could afford > "keeping a woman", like the nobility, statesmen, people who had jobs away > from their homebase. And that does not include farmers. Bohemia was > nothing like "England" who traded worldwide being an island. Bohemia was a > landlocked area where most of the families were stout Catholics and the > financial status among them was not as crass between rich and poor as it > was in England for many centuries. The poor on the continent were not > quite as destitute as in Britain, because the Monarchy made the Nobility > responsible for the welfare of the people in their regions. There was a > poor house in every village to care for widows with families or infirm > people; and the nobility would either provide financial help or offer > employment in the country villages and the same happened in the cities, > where poor people were supported by the Burghers and often even the > guilds. Do not mix up the stories you hear from Ireland, England, or any > other places, because it was a very regulated life in the Austrian > Hungarian Monarchy. Even new settlers to a new area were provided with a > newly built farm house and acreage, they never had to live in sod houses or > fend for themselves. If there was a lack of some kind due to tragedy in a > family, then the churches would step in to provide the necessities on a > community caring level. Our people were not as kind to traveling folks, > but natives in villages and cities were taken care of by their relatives, > neighbors, poor houses, and church alms. > However, it is realistic enough that it would not preclude that some > babies were born on the "other side of the blanket". Children, in general, > were needed and very welcome. The larger the family, the stronger the > entire family, because they had "enough hands" to work. Children made a > family "wealthy" because they started to contribute to the farm income very > early and were taught raising small animals and gathering of wild > growing food in nature (mushrooms, nettles, rosehips, wild fruit, roots as > well as vegetables and fruit from their gardens) which was the basis for > their daily meals. The children took care of this from 6 - 14 years of > age, and then they generally left the family thereafter when they > apprenticed for a job. Marriages for men at age 17 and women 16 were quite > common, because in "taking over the family farm" many young men could avoid > military service. > Aida > > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not marry until the man could >> prove that he was finically able to support a family? >> I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he community did not want >> to support a family that was not able to provide for itself >> >> On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: >> >>> Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian Army (and please don't forget >> that >>> that this Army existed for 400 years) all soldiers of lower ranks were >>> not allowed to marry while in service. It was different in officers >> ranks, >>> but then the father of the bride had to pay a dowry of 20,000 Kronen as >>> "Kaution" (security). I do not know the exact legal ramification on >> that, >>> so you must read up on it. I just know the story from our family, where >> my >>> aunt's arguments with her father were fierce, because she desired to >>> receive that money from him for her marriage. Since my grandfather had 6 >>> daughters, he most certainly could not single out one of them with this >>> privilege. >>> And yes, these entries you found in the registers are indeed these >>> "early born" children who were declared legitimate as soon as the father >>> came back from his tour of duty. The Church was understanding in this, >>> because the couple was not able to marry while the groom was serving in >> the >>> Military. >>> Aida >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Aide, >>>> >>>> Wondering about something you wrote below about Military Service, >> Marriage >>>> and Births. >>>> >>>> Sometimes I notice in church registers that a woman gives birth to a >> child >>>> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later date, it appears a Father's name >>>> was added and illigitamet is crossed out and ligitamete added. >>>> >>>> Would this be likely one of those times when the Father was away with >> the >>>> military? Would adding a Fathers name in such a situation happen fairly >>>> regularly? >>>> >>>> Speaking of Military Service. In peace time ( was there any? ), what was >>>> the requirement of males to military service? Did they ALL have to >> service >>>> or was it voluntary? >>>> >>>> Thanks again, >>>> >>>> Elaine in Maine >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >>>>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM >>>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in >> 1700's >>>> in Bohemia? >>>>> >>>>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood that our very Catholic families who >>>> were >>>>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl were polygamous. What you are >>>>> encountering is this. The Utschig were a HUGE family. Every family >> had >>>>> many children, They became each others sponsors at birth and so the >> same >>>>> first names come up again and again. If the births were only 3 or 7 >>>> months >>>>> apart, then you must look into the names of the father and mother, and >>>> even >>>>> there you may encounter the same names. So, since no house nunbers are >>>>> given, you have to diagram your family members with their birth dates. >>>>> Eventually you will find out into which families they could they fit >> it. >>>>> This is just your guideline. >>>>> I had a similar situation where three brothers had children and >>>>> all of them used the same first names over and over again. And then, >> the >>>>> children of the NEXT generation were given the exactly same names by >> their >>>>> related sponsors, which of course were family member, brothers sisters, >>>>> cousins, and still - to this day - that whole clan is somewhat of a >>>> puzzle >>>>> to what family they belong; but it was not unusual that a woman gave >>>> birth >>>>> to 19 children.... one every year until menopause.. That does not mean >>>> that >>>>> they all survived, but they are, or course, listed as births in the >>>> church >>>>> register. So go then to the death register and see who was listed >> there >>>>> and there they also give the names of the parents. It will help you to >>>>> sort out the families. If you compare birth register to death register >>>> you >>>>> will find more clarity. >>>>> Go back as far as you can and write down the names of the >> couples >>>>> (meaning families of siblings). Then, write down the names of their >>>>> children and next to it the birth date and if you find a death entry as >>>>> well...... >>>>> And then see, how they fit. >>>>> And this is the way you can sort it out. >>>>> Good luck. >>>>> Birth of 18 children is absolutely possible, we have found that many >>>> times >>>>> and from the same couple. Thre are also multiple marriages, but forget >>>>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were far to religious. Pre marital >> birth >>>> of >>>>> children are possible, because the men were not able to marry while in >>>>> military service and could not wait that long. They usually married >>>>> immediately when they were released. >>>>> As far as children born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my >>>>> mother's side gave birth to 13 children in the late 1800, of which 7 >> lived >>>>> through their childhood diseases which killed many of their siblings. >> The >>>>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, Diphteria, whooping cough, "Pocken" >>>>> which is smallpox and disentery. >>>>> They solely relied on herbal medicines then. >>>>> Aida >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife >> (polygamy) >>>> in >>>>>> the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines? (I understand >> in >>>>>> Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of men, so >>>> many >>>>>> having been killed in wars.) >>>>>> >>>>>> I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as being >> Anna >>>>>> Catharina. I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina >>>> Pichl/Büchl), >>>>>> but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate >>>> marriages. >>>>>> Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who born him >>>> many >>>>>> children. >>>>>> >>>>>> There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina before >> the >>>>>> 1728 marriage I found. This is important to me because my 3rd great >>>>>> grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. >>>>>> >>>>>> These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed like >> in >>>>>> the later records. No haus numbers, no names of parents. Two >> children >>>>>> born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart. The rest of the >>>> children >>>>>> are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna Catharina. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first Anna >>>>>> Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned above who >>>> were >>>>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the other in >>>> 1739 >>>>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between). So my theory >> on >>>> the >>>>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold up. Too many children born in between >>>> 1729 >>>>>> and 1739. >>>>>> >>>>>> Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I hope this makes sense. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mary >>>>>> >>>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without >>>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscr

Bob, you cannot apply Swedish family life to that of the continent. As I have stated before, the maritime countries had a very different culture than the landlocked European Interior. Also the Northern countries were mostly Protestant and with it quite a different culture developed versus the stout Catholic or Greek Orthodox church influence on the mainland which was less flexible. Aida On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 8:33 AM, Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> wrote: > Aida, Here is a "for instance" from my Swedish family. My gr-grandfather > Jon Paulson came from a family of itinerant farm laborers who moved > from place to place to find work. The boys were "farmed out" at a very > early age to work. They lived in a Backstugen which nothing was more than > a dugout in the side of a hill. > Anyway, Jon meet Anna Katrina, then a widow, he was 20 she was 31. Anna > gave birth to a son and continued to live with her parents. > Jon traveled to a neighboring parish some 50 miles away to find work. He > fathered another child four years later and then Jon and Anna Katrina were > married and they lived > together near where Jon was working. They had two more children before the > family emigrated in 1893. Jon had preceded the family, coming to America > by four years where he > worked as a surveyour on the Great Northern RR. > Bob > On Feb 14, 2012, at 12:48 AM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > > Bob, I have never heard of this, so I really cannot say. Most of the > > Egerland families supported one another when the chips were down. But > it > > could have been different during industrial development areas in the late > > 19th century. I understood that the question was posed for ancestors in > > the 18th century when agricultural life was still very dominant. Having > a > > concubine would have been possible only for someone who could afford > > "keeping a woman", like the nobility, statesmen, people who had jobs away > > from their homebase. And that does not include farmers. Bohemia was > > nothing like "England" who traded worldwide being an island. Bohemia > was a > > landlocked area where most of the families were stout Catholics and the > > financial status among them was not as crass between rich and poor as it > > was in England for many centuries. The poor on the continent were not > > quite as destitute as in Britain, because the Monarchy made the Nobility > > responsible for the welfare of the people in their regions. There was a > > poor house in every village to care for widows with families or infirm > > people; and the nobility would either provide financial help or offer > > employment in the country villages and the same happened in the cities, > > where poor people were supported by the Burghers and often even the > > guilds. Do not mix up the stories you hear from Ireland, England, or > any > > other places, because it was a very regulated life in the Austrian > > Hungarian Monarchy. Even new settlers to a new area were provided with a > > newly built farm house and acreage, they never had to live in sod houses > or > > fend for themselves. If there was a lack of some kind due to tragedy in > a > > family, then the churches would step in to provide the necessities on a > > community caring level. Our people were not as kind to traveling folks, > > but natives in villages and cities were taken care of by their relatives, > > neighbors, poor houses, and church alms. > > However, it is realistic enough that it would not preclude that some > > babies were born on the "other side of the blanket". Children, in > general, > > were needed and very welcome. The larger the family, the stronger the > > entire family, because they had "enough hands" to work. Children made > a > > family "wealthy" because they started to contribute to the farm income > very > > early and were taught raising small animals and gathering of wild > > growing food in nature (mushrooms, nettles, rosehips, wild fruit, roots > as > > well as vegetables and fruit from their gardens) which was the basis for > > their daily meals. The children took care of this from 6 - 14 years of > > age, and then they generally left the family thereafter when they > > apprenticed for a job. Marriages for men at age 17 and women 16 were > quite > > common, because in "taking over the family farm" many young men could > avoid > > military service. > > Aida > > > > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > >> Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not marry until the man > could > >> prove that he was finically able to support a family? > >> I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he community did not > want > >> to support a family that was not able to provide for itself > >> > >> On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > >> > >>> Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian Army (and please don't forget > >> that > >>> that this Army existed for 400 years) all soldiers of lower ranks were > >>> not allowed to marry while in service. It was different in officers > >> ranks, > >>> but then the father of the bride had to pay a dowry of 20,000 Kronen as > >>> "Kaution" (security). I do not know the exact legal ramification on > >> that, > >>> so you must read up on it. I just know the story from our family, > where > >> my > >>> aunt's arguments with her father were fierce, because she desired to > >>> receive that money from him for her marriage. Since my grandfather > had 6 > >>> daughters, he most certainly could not single out one of them with this > >>> privilege. > >>> And yes, these entries you found in the registers are indeed these > >>> "early born" children who were declared legitimate as soon as the > father > >>> came back from his tour of duty. The Church was understanding in > this, > >>> because the couple was not able to marry while the groom was serving in > >> the > >>> Military. > >>> Aida > >>> > >>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Aide, > >>>> > >>>> Wondering about something you wrote below about Military Service, > >> Marriage > >>>> and Births. > >>>> > >>>> Sometimes I notice in church registers that a woman gives birth to a > >> child > >>>> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later date, it appears a Father's > name > >>>> was added and illigitamet is crossed out and ligitamete added. > >>>> > >>>> Would this be likely one of those times when the Father was away with > >> the > >>>> military? Would adding a Fathers name in such a situation happen > fairly > >>>> regularly? > >>>> > >>>> Speaking of Military Service. In peace time ( was there any? ), what > was > >>>> the requirement of males to military service? Did they ALL have to > >> service > >>>> or was it voluntary? > >>>> > >>>> Thanks again, > >>>> > >>>> Elaine in Maine > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > >>>>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM > >>>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >>>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in > >> 1700's > >>>> in Bohemia? > >>>>> > >>>>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood that our very Catholic families > who > >>>> were > >>>>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl were polygamous. What you are > >>>>> encountering is this. The Utschig were a HUGE family. Every family > >> had > >>>>> many children, They became each others sponsors at birth and so the > >> same > >>>>> first names come up again and again. If the births were only 3 or 7 > >>>> months > >>>>> apart, then you must look into the names of the father and mother, > and > >>>> even > >>>>> there you may encounter the same names. So, since no house nunbers > are > >>>>> given, you have to diagram your family members with their birth > dates. > >>>>> Eventually you will find out into which families they could they fit > >> it. > >>>>> This is just your guideline. > >>>>> I had a similar situation where three brothers had children and > >>>>> all of them used the same first names over and over again. And > then, > >> the > >>>>> children of the NEXT generation were given the exactly same names by > >> their > >>>>> related sponsors, which of course were family member, brothers > sisters, > >>>>> cousins, and still - to this day - that whole clan is somewhat of a > >>>> puzzle > >>>>> to what family they belong; but it was not unusual that a woman gave > >>>> birth > >>>>> to 19 children.... one every year until menopause.. That does not > mean > >>>> that > >>>>> they all survived, but they are, or course, listed as births in the > >>>> church > >>>>> register. So go then to the death register and see who was listed > >> there > >>>>> and there they also give the names of the parents. It will help you > to > >>>>> sort out the families. If you compare birth register to death > register > >>>> you > >>>>> will find more clarity. > >>>>> Go back as far as you can and write down the names of the > >> couples > >>>>> (meaning families of siblings). Then, write down the names of their > >>>>> children and next to it the birth date and if you find a death entry > as > >>>>> well...... > >>>>> And then see, how they fit. > >>>>> And this is the way you can sort it out. > >>>>> Good luck. > >>>>> Birth of 18 children is absolutely possible, we have found that many > >>>> times > >>>>> and from the same couple. Thre are also multiple marriages, but > forget > >>>>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were far to religious. Pre marital > >> birth > >>>> of > >>>>> children are possible, because the men were not able to marry while > in > >>>>> military service and could not wait that long. They usually married > >>>>> immediately when they were released. > >>>>> As far as children born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my > >>>>> mother's side gave birth to 13 children in the late 1800, of which 7 > >> lived > >>>>> through their childhood diseases which killed many of their siblings. > >> The > >>>>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, Diphteria, whooping cough, > "Pocken" > >>>>> which is smallpox and disentery. > >>>>> They solely relied on herbal medicines then. > >>>>> Aida > >>>>> > >>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> > >> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife > >> (polygamy) > >>>> in > >>>>>> the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines? (I understand > >> in > >>>>>> Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of men, > so > >>>> many > >>>>>> having been killed in wars.) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as being > >> Anna > >>>>>> Catharina. I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina > >>>> Pichl/Büchl), > >>>>>> but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate > >>>> marriages. > >>>>>> Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who born > him > >>>> many > >>>>>> children. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina before > >> the > >>>>>> 1728 marriage I found. This is important to me because my 3rd great > >>>>>> grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed like > >> in > >>>>>> the later records. No haus numbers, no names of parents. Two > >> children > >>>>>> born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart. The rest of the > >>>> children > >>>>>> are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna Catharina. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first Anna > >>>>>> Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned above > who > >>>> were > >>>>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the other > in > >>>> 1739 > >>>>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between). So my theory > >> on > >>>> the > >>>>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold up. Too many children born in between > >>>> 1729 > >>>>>> and 1739. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I hope this makes sense. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Mary > >>>>>> > >>>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >>>> without > >>>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>>>> > >>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscr > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Mary, military service was a requirement and young healthy men had to serve. However, a lot of exceptions were made in the process of "mustering" - conscription. For instance, when a family settled in a new area where agricultural population was required within the Empire, there was no military service for the new settlers, and they were also given ten years of tax exemption. Actually, the conscription was very selective and not everyone passed through pretty stiff medical exams. Failing an eye exam alone would make the person "untauglich" = unfit to serve. Damages to limbs or birth defects were also unacceptable to service, and they would not pass conscription if they had a lung or skin diseases. Actually, most young men were eager to serve because they were always transferred to another area in the Monarchy and this afforded them travel and seeing a bit of the "world". It was considered a set back when they did not measure up to the conscription requirements. But in other circumstances, for instance, when a young man married early to take over the family's farm and avoided service, that was usually based on a necessity to take care of the family, which included older family members. The eldest son was often "passed over" for service, or another brother stood in for the son best suited to run the farm. I heard from my family that the young men were taking their duties quite seriously and "shirking" was not looked upon very favorably. The Bohemians were Royalists and true to the crown, and the House of Habsburg recognized the "Egerlander Regiment" as one of their best. Exiled Emperor Karl of Habsburg (recently deceased at a ripe old age) was always attending the meetings of the German Bohemians expellees in Germany. Aida On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 11:30 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> wrote: > Thanks for your advise, Aida. There were very few deaths of children in > this large family which I thought unusual. Out of the really 18 children, > I found only 3 deaths, then the death of Anton in 1757 and an Anna > Catharina in 1765. I found some marriages of a few of the children, so I > will try and find births of their children, which by the later dates should > reveal more information about parents and grandparents. > > Elaine asked a question about the military--whether it was voluntary or > required. Can anyone answer that? If required, how old would they have > had to be to be required to go into the military; and was there a length of > time they had to serve? > > Thanks for everyone's input. > > Mary > > --- On Mon, 2/13/12, Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> wrote: > > > From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Marriage - Military Service and > illegitamate births > > To: polloe@earthlink.net, german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > Date: Monday, February 13, 2012, 11:14 PM > > Do not mix up the stories you hear > > about England or Ireland, or even > > Scandinavian places, because they were in the vicinity > > of a seashore. This > > is an entirely different culture and provides a steady mix > > of people. > > Bohemia is landlocked, the people who lived there lived in > > the same places > > for centuries and everybody knew everybody else's business > > for several > > generations (and besides the whole village was related by > > intermarriage). > > Everybody's affair was widely discussed among the > > villagers. This in > > itself had a rather self-controlling effect on all > > inhabitants. And that > > was also often the cause for emigration, some had just about > > enough of > > interferences. But let me tell you that villagers were very > > protective of > > their own people and sometimes rather cruel to outsiders or > > even villagers > > from the next village. Sometimes when a young swain from > > another village > > looked for a bride in a neighboring village, he was often > > thoroughly > > thrashed by the young men of the village where that pretty > > girl lived. To > > be able to steal the (village's Maibaum) may-tree and plant > > it in the > > garden of your sweetheart in another village, that was just > > about the > > greatest insult to the young men of a village but a great > > honor to the lady > > in question. There were "wars" fought in Springtime > > when the juices were > > flowing and there are a lot of funny stories as part of > > Egerland's legends. > > It simply was a very clannish group protecting their > > own. And because of > > that, those that deserved help received it. > > Read the prior discussions on that. > > Aida > > > > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:38 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> > > wrote: > > > > > Doug, Robert and Joseph bring up interesting points. > > Things I was not at > > > all familar with. > > > > > > Ya had to have enough money to marry? Like how much? > > Was this to pay the > > > church or to establish a home or for someother > > purpose? > > > > > > Did this mean the household of the new unwed Mother had > > to financially > > > support the new Mom and child? > > > > > > If so, Fathers must have cringed every time a female > > baby was born because > > > each daughter could end up costing him a great deal. > > > > > > Culturally, things must have been so different from > > place to place. Like > > > Doug, I was thinking about England and their cruelity > > with designations of > > > bastard and the like. > > > > > > Aida could you and others in the know, give us all a > > tutorial on the > > > broader subjects referenced in this discussion ? > > > > > > Thanks again, in advance, > > > > > > Elaine > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > >From: Joseph Lischka <jlischka@ceoexpress.com> > > > >Sent: Feb 14, 2012 12:02 AM > > > >To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > > >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages > > or concubines in 1700's > > > in Bohemia? > > > > > > > >My great grandfather Laurenz was born illegitemate > > to Frantisek and Eva > > > in 1844 in southwest Bohemia, where Frantisek was a > > millworker. Frantisek, > > > Eva and little Laurenz went back to Frantisek's home > > village in southeast > > > Bohemia soon after and Frantisek and Eva got married 14 > > years later, which > > > made Laurenz legitimate. Frantisek was never a soldier > > as far as I know. > > > The whole family were factory workers or day laborers > > and probably could > > > not afford to marry. > > > > > > > >--- rpaulgb@yahoo.com > > wrote: > > > > > > > >From: Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> > > > >To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > > >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages > > or concubines in 1700's > > > in Bohemia? > > > >Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 22:37:05 -0600 > > > > > > > >Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not > > marry until the man could > > > prove that he was finically able to support a family? > > > >I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he > > community did not > > > want to support a family that was not able to provide > > for itself > > > > > > > >On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > > > > > > >> Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian > > Army (and please don't forget > > > that > > > >> that this Army existed for 400 years) > > all soldiers of lower ranks were > > > >> not allowed to marry while in service. It was > > different in officers > > > ranks, > > > >> but then the father of the bride had to pay a > > dowry of 20,000 Kronen as > > > >> "Kaution" (security). I do not know the > > exact legal ramification on > > > that, > > > >> so you must read up on it. I just know > > the story from our family, > > > where my > > > >> aunt's arguments with her father were > > fierce, because she desired to > > > >> receive that money from him for her > > marriage. Since my grandfather had > > > 6 > > > >> daughters, he most certainly could not single > > out one of them with this > > > >> privilege. > > > >> And yes, these entries you > > found in the registers are indeed these > > > >> "early born" children who were declared > > legitimate as soon as the father > > > >> came back from his tour of > > duty. The Church was understanding in > > this, > > > >> because the couple was not able to marry while > > the groom was serving in > > > the > > > >> Military. > > > >> Aida > > > >> > > > >> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> Aide, > > > >>> > > > >>> Wondering about something you wrote below > > about Military Service, > > > Marriage > > > >>> and Births. > > > >>> > > > >>> Sometimes I notice in church registers > > that a woman gives birth to a > > > child > > > >>> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later > > date, it appears a Father's > > > name > > > >>> was added and illigitamet is crossed out > > and ligitamete added. > > > >>> > > > >>> Would this be likely one of those times > > when the Father was away with > > > the > > > >>> military? Would adding a Fathers > > name in such a situation happen > > > fairly > > > >>> regularly? > > > >>> > > > >>> Speaking of Military Service. In peace > > time ( was there any? ), what > > > was > > > >>> the requirement of males to military > > service? Did they ALL have to > > > service > > > >>> or was it voluntary? > > > >>> > > > >>> Thanks again, > > > >>> > > > >>> Elaine in Maine > > > >>> > > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > > >>>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > > > >>>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM > > > >>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > > >>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] > > Multiple marriages or concubines in > > > 1700's > > > >>> in Bohemia? > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood > > that our very Catholic families who > > > >>> were > > > >>>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl > > were polygamous. What you are > > > >>>> encountering is this. The > > Utschig were a HUGE family. Every family > > > had > > > >>>> many children, They became each others > > sponsors at birth and so the > > > same > > > >>>> first names come up again and > > again. If the births were only 3 or 7 > > > >>> months > > > >>>> apart, then you must look into the > > names of the father and mother, and > > > >>> even > > > >>>> there you may encounter the same > > names. So, since no house nunbers > > > are > > > >>>> given, you have to diagram your family > > members with their birth dates. > > > >>>> Eventually you will find out into > > which families they could they fit > > > it. > > > >>>> This is just your guideline. > > > >>>> I had a > > similar situation where three brothers had children > > and > > > >>>> all of them used the same first names > > over and over again. And > > > then, the > > > >>>> children of the NEXT generation were > > given the exactly same names by > > > their > > > >>>> related sponsors, which of course were > > family member, brothers > > > sisters, > > > >>>> cousins, and still - to this day > > - that whole clan is somewhat of a > > > >>> puzzle > > > >>>> to what family they belong; but > > it was not unusual that a woman gave > > > >>> birth > > > >>>> to 19 children.... one every year > > until menopause.. That does not mean > > > >>> that > > > >>>> they all survived, but they are, or > > course, listed as births in the > > > >>> church > > > >>>> register. So go then to the > > death register and see who was listed > > > there > > > >>>> and there they also give the names of > > the parents. It will help you > > > to > > > >>>> sort out the families. If you > > compare birth register to death > > > register > > > >>> you > > > >>>> will find more clarity. > > > >>>> Go back as > > far as you can and write down the names of the > > > couples > > > >>>> (meaning families of siblings). > > Then, write down the names of their > > > >>>> children and next to it the birth date > > and if you find a death entry > > > as > > > >>>> well...... > > > >>>> And then see, how they fit. > > > >>>> And this is the way you can sort it > > out. > > > >>>> Good luck. > > > >>>> Birth of 18 children is > > absolutely possible, we have found that many > > > >>> times > > > >>>> and from the same couple. Thre are > > also multiple marriages, but forget > > > >>>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were > > far to religious. Pre marital > > > birth > > > >>> of > > > >>>> children are possible, because the men > > were not able to marry while in > > > >>>> military service and could not wait > > that long. They usually married > > > >>>> immediately when they were released. > > > >>>> As far as children > > born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my > > > >>>> mother's side gave birth to 13 > > children in the late 1800, of which 7 > > > lived > > > >>>> through their childhood diseases which > > killed many of their siblings. > > > The > > > >>>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, > > Diphteria, whooping cough, "Pocken" > > > >>>> which is smallpox and > > disentery. > > > >>>> They solely relied on herbal medicines > > then. > > > >>>> Aida > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary > > Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> > > > wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> I was wondering if there were men > > who had more than one wife > > > (polygamy) > > > >>> in > > > >>>>> the early to middle 1700's in > > Bohemia, or concubines? (I understand > > > in > > > >>>>> Germany there was polygamy at one > > time because of the lack of men, so > > > >>> many > > > >>>>> having been killed in wars.) > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> I have 18 children born to an > > Anton Utschig, with the wife as being > > > Anna > > > >>>>> Catharina. I found one > > marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina > > > >>> Pichl/Büchl), > > > >>>>> but cannot find the other > > marriage, if there were two separate > > > >>> marriages. > > > >>>>> Or he had a woman on the side, > > also named Anna Catharina who born him > > > >>> many > > > >>>>> children. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> There were three children born to > > an Anton and Anna Catharina before > > > the > > > >>>>> 1728 marriage I found. This > > is important to me because my 3rd great > > > >>>>> grandfather belonged to one of the > > Anton's and Anna Catharina's. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> These early records do not tell > > you much--no occupations listed like > > > in > > > >>>>> the later records. No haus > > numbers, no names of parents. Two > > > children > > > >>>>> born 3 months apart, another two, > > 7 months apart. The rest of the > > > >>> children > > > >>>>> are spaced out so that they could > > belong to either Anna Catharina. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> I have also looked to see if there > > was a death for the first Anna > > > >>>>> Catharina but could not find one. > > Yet the children mentioned above > > > who > > > >>> were > > > >>>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 > > (Aug and November) and the other in > > > >>> 1739 > > > >>>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of > > children in between). So my theory > > > on > > > >>> the > > > >>>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold > > up. Too many children born in between > > > >>> 1729 > > > >>>>> and 1739. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Any insight would be greatly > > appreciated. I hope this makes sense. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Mary > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society > > web site > > > >>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >>>>> ------------------------------- > > > >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, > > please send an email to > > > >>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > >>> without > > > >>>>> the quotes in the subject and the > > body of the message > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web > > site > > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >>>> ------------------------------- > > > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please > > send an email to > > > >>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of > > the message > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >>> ------------------------------- > > > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send > > an email to > > > >>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of > > the message > > > >>> > > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >> ------------------------------- > > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an > > email to > > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >------------------------------- > > > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email > > to > > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________________ > > > >A CEOExpressSelect Member > > > >http://www.ceoexpress.com > > > > > > > >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >------------------------------- > > > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email > > to > > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > > subject and the body of the message > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

The *Military of Austria-Hungary*, comprising the Armed Forces, War Office, and intelligence organisations of the Dual Monarchy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_Monarchy>served as one of the Empire's core unifying institutions and primary instruments for defense as well as external power projection<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_projection>. The history of the Austro-Hungarian<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria-Hungary>military begins when the Habsburgs <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habsburgs> established hereditary rule over Austrian lands in the *13th century and stretches until the fall of the Habsburgs, at the end of **World War I*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I> *,* during which time their armies were among the largest and most significant in Europe <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe>. Though not as powerful as some of its contemporaries, the military of Austria-Hungary's scale, resources, organization, technology and training were one of the central factors determining conferral of 'great power'<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_power>status on the empire for much of the 19th and early 20th centuries. *(Note from Aida: please note the time of the Austrian empire's existence which was from the 13th century to WW1 1918, while Germany was not more than just a conglomerate of Duchies and small Kingdoms of which Bavaria was the largest. Germany as a "country" only existed during the first Reich, which was the holy Roman Empire and included Austria**(911–1806), the second "Reich" was under the ** Prussian **House of Hohenzollern*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Hohenzollern> *, known in English as the **German Empire*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Empire> * (1871–1918) after that came the** republic informally called the **Weimar Republic* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic>* (1919–33), and the third Reich was a National Socialist State under Hitler **(1933–45) who attempted to annex all Germanic lands as they existed under the First Reich of 911-1806 in attempt to unify the country as it existed from 911-1806, after all German lands were split away from the motherland by the Treaty of Versailles in 1918 after WW1).* * **Military in Austria Hungary:* It was composed of three parts: the joint army (Gemeinsame Armee - Common Army - recruited from all parts of the country), the Austrian Landwehr (recruited from Cisleithania), and the Hungarian Honvédség (recruited from Transleithania).The joint "Imperial and Royal Army" (kaiserlich und königliche Armee or k.u.k.) units were generally poorly trained and had very limited access to new equipment because the governments of the Austrian and Hungarian parts of the empire often preferred to generously fund their own units instead of outfitting all three army branches equally. In the late 19th century the army was used to suppress unrest in urban areas of the empire: in 1882 and 1887 in Vienna[4] and notably against German nationalists at Graz and Czech nationalists in Prague in November 1897[5]. Soldiers under the command of Conrad von Hotzendorf were also used against Italian rioters in Trieste in 1902.[6] The most significant action by soldiers of the Dual Monarchy in this period was the occupation of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the summer of 1878. In 1868 the number of active-duty troops in the army was 255,000, and the total could be expanded to 800,000 upon mobilization. However, this was significantly less than the European powers of France, the North German Confederation and Russia, each of which could field more than one million men.[8] Though the population of the empire had risen to nearly 50 million by 1900, the size of the army was tied to ceilings established in 1889. Thus, at the turn of the century Austria-Hungary conscripted only 0.29% of its population, compared to 0.47% in Germany, 0.35% in Russia and 0.75% in France.[9] The 1889 army law was not revised until 1912, which allowed for an increase in annual conscriptions.[10] -- *Ethnic and religious composition *The ethnic make-up of the enlisted ranks reflected the diversity of the empire the army served; in 1906, out of every 1000 enlisted men, there were 267 Germans, 223 Hungarians, 135 Czechs, 85 Poles, 81 Ruthenians (or Ukrainians), 67 Croats and Serbs, 64 Romanians, 38 Slovaks, 26 Slovenes, and 14 Italians.[11] >From a religious standpoint, the Austro-Hungarian army officer corps was dominated by Catholics. In 1896, out of 1000 officers, 791 were Catholics, 86 Protestants, 84 Jews, 39 Greek-Orthodox, and one Uniate. Of the pre-World War military forces of the major European powers, the Austro-Hungarian army was almost alone in its regular promotion of Jews to positions of command.[12] While the Jewish population of the lands of the Dual Monarchy was about 5%, Jews made up nearly 18% of the reserve officer corps.[13] There were no official barriers to military service for Jews, but in later years this tolerance eroded to some extent, as important figures such as Conrad von Hotzendorf and Franz Ferdinand sometimes expressed anti-Jewish sentiments. Franz Ferdinand was also accused (by Conrad) of discriminating against Protestant officers.[14]Austro-Hungarian Army in July 1914 30,000 Officers 410,000 NCOs and troops 87,000 horses (estimate) 1,200 artillery pieces Official designations were as follows: regiments of the joint army were designated Imperial and Royal (German: "kaiserlich und königlich" (k.u.k.); Hungarian: "Császári és Királyi") Austrian Landwehr regiments were Imperial/Royal (German: "kaiserlich/königlich" (k.k.) (which stands for *Imperial Austrian / Royal Bohemian (kaiserlich österreichisch/königlich böhmisch));* Hungarian: "császári/királyi") Hungarian Honvéd regiments, or "Honvédség", were called Royal Hungarian (German: "königlich ungarisch"; Hungarian: "Magyar Királyi") The soldiers generally had to serve 2 years, after they finished their apprenticeships or educaton. They were "mustered" between the ages 18 and 22. For general reading I have copied this for you from the Internet, but you may read it in more detail at the link below, where you can also have a look at the individual uniforms : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Hungarian Army\ Submitted by Aida

Doug, Robert and Joseph bring up interesting points. Things I was not at all familar with. Ya had to have enough money to marry? Like how much? Was this to pay the church or to establish a home or for someother purpose? Did this mean the household of the new unwed Mother had to financially support the new Mom and child? If so, Fathers must have cringed every time a female baby was born because each daughter could end up costing him a great deal. Culturally, things must have been so different from place to place. Like Doug, I was thinking about England and their cruelity with designations of bastard and the like. Aida could you and others in the know, give us all a tutorial on the broader subjects referenced in this discussion ? Thanks again, in advance, Elaine -----Original Message----- >From: Joseph Lischka <jlischka@ceoexpress.com> >Sent: Feb 14, 2012 12:02 AM >To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's in Bohemia? > >My great grandfather Laurenz was born illegitemate to Frantisek and Eva in 1844 in southwest Bohemia, where Frantisek was a millworker. Frantisek, Eva and little Laurenz went back to Frantisek's home village in southeast Bohemia soon after and Frantisek and Eva got married 14 years later, which made Laurenz legitimate. Frantisek was never a soldier as far as I know. The whole family were factory workers or day laborers and probably could not afford to marry. > >--- rpaulgb@yahoo.com wrote: > >From: Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> >To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's in Bohemia? >Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 22:37:05 -0600 > >Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not marry until the man could prove that he was finically able to support a family? >I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he community did not want to support a family that was not able to provide for itself > >On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > >> Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian Army (and please don't forget that >> that this Army existed for 400 years) all soldiers of lower ranks were >> not allowed to marry while in service. It was different in officers ranks, >> but then the father of the bride had to pay a dowry of 20,000 Kronen as >> "Kaution" (security). I do not know the exact legal ramification on that, >> so you must read up on it. I just know the story from our family, where my >> aunt's arguments with her father were fierce, because she desired to >> receive that money from him for her marriage. Since my grandfather had 6 >> daughters, he most certainly could not single out one of them with this >> privilege. >> And yes, these entries you found in the registers are indeed these >> "early born" children who were declared legitimate as soon as the father >> came back from his tour of duty. The Church was understanding in this, >> because the couple was not able to marry while the groom was serving in the >> Military. >> Aida >> >> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: >> >>> Aide, >>> >>> Wondering about something you wrote below about Military Service, Marriage >>> and Births. >>> >>> Sometimes I notice in church registers that a woman gives birth to a child >>> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later date, it appears a Father's name >>> was added and illigitamet is crossed out and ligitamete added. >>> >>> Would this be likely one of those times when the Father was away with the >>> military? Would adding a Fathers name in such a situation happen fairly >>> regularly? >>> >>> Speaking of Military Service. In peace time ( was there any? ), what was >>> the requirement of males to military service? Did they ALL have to service >>> or was it voluntary? >>> >>> Thanks again, >>> >>> Elaine in Maine >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >>>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM >>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's >>> in Bohemia? >>>> >>>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood that our very Catholic families who >>> were >>>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl were polygamous. What you are >>>> encountering is this. The Utschig were a HUGE family. Every family had >>>> many children, They became each others sponsors at birth and so the same >>>> first names come up again and again. If the births were only 3 or 7 >>> months >>>> apart, then you must look into the names of the father and mother, and >>> even >>>> there you may encounter the same names. So, since no house nunbers are >>>> given, you have to diagram your family members with their birth dates. >>>> Eventually you will find out into which families they could they fit it. >>>> This is just your guideline. >>>> I had a similar situation where three brothers had children and >>>> all of them used the same first names over and over again. And then, the >>>> children of the NEXT generation were given the exactly same names by their >>>> related sponsors, which of course were family member, brothers sisters, >>>> cousins, and still - to this day - that whole clan is somewhat of a >>> puzzle >>>> to what family they belong; but it was not unusual that a woman gave >>> birth >>>> to 19 children.... one every year until menopause.. That does not mean >>> that >>>> they all survived, but they are, or course, listed as births in the >>> church >>>> register. So go then to the death register and see who was listed there >>>> and there they also give the names of the parents. It will help you to >>>> sort out the families. If you compare birth register to death register >>> you >>>> will find more clarity. >>>> Go back as far as you can and write down the names of the couples >>>> (meaning families of siblings). Then, write down the names of their >>>> children and next to it the birth date and if you find a death entry as >>>> well...... >>>> And then see, how they fit. >>>> And this is the way you can sort it out. >>>> Good luck. >>>> Birth of 18 children is absolutely possible, we have found that many >>> times >>>> and from the same couple. Thre are also multiple marriages, but forget >>>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were far to religious. Pre marital birth >>> of >>>> children are possible, because the men were not able to marry while in >>>> military service and could not wait that long. They usually married >>>> immediately when they were released. >>>> As far as children born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my >>>> mother's side gave birth to 13 children in the late 1800, of which 7 lived >>>> through their childhood diseases which killed many of their siblings. The >>>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, Diphteria, whooping cough, "Pocken" >>>> which is smallpox and disentery. >>>> They solely relied on herbal medicines then. >>>> Aida >>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife (polygamy) >>> in >>>>> the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines? (I understand in >>>>> Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of men, so >>> many >>>>> having been killed in wars.) >>>>> >>>>> I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as being Anna >>>>> Catharina. I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina >>> Pichl/Büchl), >>>>> but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate >>> marriages. >>>>> Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who born him >>> many >>>>> children. >>>>> >>>>> There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina before the >>>>> 1728 marriage I found. This is important to me because my 3rd great >>>>> grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. >>>>> >>>>> These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed like in >>>>> the later records. No haus numbers, no names of parents. Two children >>>>> born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart. The rest of the >>> children >>>>> are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna Catharina. >>>>> >>>>> I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first Anna >>>>> Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned above who >>> were >>>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the other in >>> 1739 >>>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between). So my theory on >>> the >>>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold up. Too many children born in between >>> 1729 >>>>> and 1739. >>>>> >>>>> Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I hope this makes sense. >>>>> >>>>> Mary >>>>> >>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without >>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > >_____________________________________________________________ >A CEOExpressSelect Member >http://www.ceoexpress.com > >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks for your advise, Aida. There were very few deaths of children in this large family which I thought unusual. Out of the really 18 children, I found only 3 deaths, then the death of Anton in 1757 and an Anna Catharina in 1765. I found some marriages of a few of the children, so I will try and find births of their children, which by the later dates should reveal more information about parents and grandparents. Elaine asked a question about the military--whether it was voluntary or required. Can anyone answer that? If required, how old would they have had to be to be required to go into the military; and was there a length of time they had to serve? Thanks for everyone's input. Mary --- On Mon, 2/13/12, Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> wrote: > From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Marriage - Military Service and illegitamate births > To: polloe@earthlink.net, german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > Date: Monday, February 13, 2012, 11:14 PM > Do not mix up the stories you hear > about England or Ireland, or even > Scandinavian places,  because they were in the vicinity > of a seashore. This > is an entirely different culture and provides a steady mix > of people. > Bohemia is landlocked, the people who lived there lived in > the same places > for centuries and everybody knew everybody else's business > for several > generations (and besides the whole village was related by > intermarriage). > Everybody's affair was widely discussed among the > villagers.  This in > itself had a rather self-controlling effect on all > inhabitants.  And that > was also often the cause for emigration, some had just about > enough of > interferences. But let me tell you that villagers were very > protective of > their own people and sometimes rather cruel to outsiders or > even villagers > from the next village. Sometimes when a young swain from > another village > looked for a bride in a neighboring village, he was often > thoroughly > thrashed by the young men of the village where that pretty > girl lived.  To > be able to steal the (village's Maibaum) may-tree and plant > it in the > garden of your sweetheart in another village, that was just > about the > greatest insult to the young men of a village but a great > honor to the lady > in question.  There were "wars" fought in Springtime > when the juices were > flowing and there are a lot of funny stories as part of > Egerland's legends. > It simply was a very clannish group protecting their > own.  And because of > that, those that deserved help received it. >     Read the prior discussions on that. > Aida > > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:38 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> > wrote: > > > Doug, Robert and Joseph bring up interesting points. > Things I was not at > > all familar with. > > > > Ya had to have enough money to marry? Like how much? > Was this to pay the > > church or to establish a home or for someother > purpose? > > > > Did this mean the household of the new unwed Mother had > to financially > > support the new Mom and child? > > > > If so, Fathers must have cringed every time a female > baby was born because > > each daughter could end up costing him a great deal. > > > > Culturally, things must have been so different from > place to place. Like > > Doug, I was thinking about England and their cruelity > with designations of > > bastard and the like. > > > > Aida could you and others in the know, give us all a > tutorial on the > > broader subjects referenced in this discussion ? > > > > Thanks again, in advance, > > > > Elaine > > > > -----Original Message----- > > >From: Joseph Lischka <jlischka@ceoexpress.com> > > >Sent: Feb 14, 2012 12:02 AM > > >To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages > or concubines in 1700's > >      in      Bohemia? > > > > > >My great grandfather Laurenz was born illegitemate > to Frantisek and Eva > > in 1844 in southwest Bohemia, where Frantisek was a > millworker. Frantisek, > > Eva and little Laurenz went back to Frantisek's home > village in southeast > > Bohemia soon after and Frantisek and Eva got married 14 > years later, which > > made Laurenz legitimate. Frantisek was never a soldier > as far as I know. > > The whole family were factory workers or day laborers > and probably could > > not afford to marry. > > > > > >--- rpaulgb@yahoo.com > wrote: > > > > > >From: Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> > > >To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages > or concubines in 1700's > > in   Bohemia? > > >Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 22:37:05 -0600 > > > > > >Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not > marry until the  man could > > prove that he was finically able to support a family? > > >I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he > community did not > > want to support a family that was not able to provide > for itself > > > > > >On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > > > > >> Yes, exactly!  In the Austrian Hungarian > Army (and please don't forget > > that > > >> that this Army existed for 400 years)  > all soldiers of lower ranks were > > >> not allowed to marry while in service. It was > different in officers > > ranks, > > >> but then the father of the bride had to pay a > dowry of 20,000 Kronen as > > >> "Kaution" (security).  I do not know the > exact legal ramification on > > that, > > >> so you must read up on it.  I just know > the story from our family, > > where my > > >> aunt's arguments with her  father were > fierce, because she desired to > > >> receive that money from him for her > marriage.  Since my grandfather had > > 6 > > >> daughters, he most certainly could not single > out one of them with this > > >> privilege. > > >>      And yes, these entries you > found in the registers are indeed these > > >> "early born" children who were declared > legitimate as soon as the father > > >> came back from his tour of > duty.   The Church was understanding in > this, > > >> because the couple was not able to marry while > the groom was serving in > > the > > >> Military. > > >>    Aida > > >> > > >> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> > wrote: > > >> > > >>> Aide, > > >>> > > >>> Wondering about something you wrote below > about Military Service, > > Marriage > > >>> and Births. > > >>> > > >>> Sometimes I notice in church registers > that a woman gives birth to a > > child > > >>> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later > date, it appears a Father's > > name > > >>> was added and illigitamet is crossed out > and ligitamete added. > > >>> > > >>> Would this be likely one of those times > when the Father was away with > > the > > >>> military?  Would adding a Fathers > name in such a situation happen > > fairly > > >>> regularly? > > >>> > > >>> Speaking of Military Service. In peace > time ( was there any? ), what > > was > > >>> the requirement of males to military > service?  Did they ALL have to > > service > > >>> or was it voluntary? > > >>> > > >>> Thanks again, > > >>> > > >>> Elaine in Maine > > >>> > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > > >>>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM > > >>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > >>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] > Multiple marriages or concubines in > > 1700's > > >>> in   Bohemia? > > >>>> > > >>>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood > that our very Catholic families who > > >>> were > > >>>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl > were polygamous.  What you are > > >>>> encountering is this.  The > Utschig were a HUGE family.  Every family > > had > > >>>> many children, They became each others > sponsors at birth and so the > > same > > >>>> first names come up again and > again.  If the births were only 3 or 7 > > >>> months > > >>>> apart, then you must look into the > names of the father and mother, and > > >>> even > > >>>> there you may encounter the same > names.  So, since no house nunbers > > are > > >>>> given, you have to diagram your family > members with their birth dates. > > >>>> Eventually you will find out into > which families they could they fit > > it. > > >>>> This is just your guideline. > > >>>>       I had a > similar situation where three brothers had children  > and > > >>>> all of them used the same first names > over and over again.   And > > then, the > > >>>> children of the NEXT generation were > given the exactly same names by > > their > > >>>> related sponsors, which of course were > family member, brothers > > sisters, > > >>>> cousins,  and still - to this day > - that whole clan is somewhat of a > > >>> puzzle > > >>>> to what family they belong;  but > it was not unusual that a woman gave > > >>> birth > > >>>> to 19 children.... one every year > until menopause.. That does not mean > > >>> that > > >>>> they all survived, but they are, or > course,  listed as births in the > > >>> church > > >>>> register.  So go then to the > death register and see who was listed > > there > > >>>> and there they also give the names of > the parents.  It will help you > > to > > >>>> sort out the families.  If you > compare birth register to death > > register > > >>> you > > >>>> will find more clarity. > > >>>>        Go back as > far as you can and write down the names of the > > couples > > >>>> (meaning families of siblings).  > Then, write down the names of their > > >>>> children and next to it the birth date > and if you find a death entry > > as > > >>>> well...... > > >>>> And then see, how they fit. > > >>>> And this is the way you can sort it > out. > > >>>>    Good luck. > > >>>> Birth of  18 children is > absolutely possible, we have found that many > > >>> times > > >>>> and from the same couple. Thre are > also multiple marriages, but forget > > >>>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were > far to religious.  Pre marital > > birth > > >>> of > > >>>> children are possible, because the men > were not able to marry while in > > >>>> military service and could not wait > that long.  They usually married > > >>>> immediately when they were released. > > >>>>   As far as children > born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my > > >>>> mother's side gave birth to 13 > children in the late 1800, of which 7 > > lived > > >>>> through their childhood diseases which > killed many of their siblings. > >  The > > >>>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, > Diphteria, whooping cough, "Pocken" > > >>>> which is  smallpox and > disentery. > > >>>> They solely relied on herbal medicines > then. > > >>>>    Aida > > >>>> > > >>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary > Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> > > wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> I was wondering if there were men > who had more than one wife > > (polygamy) > > >>> in > > >>>>> the early to middle 1700's in > Bohemia, or concubines?  (I understand > > in > > >>>>> Germany there was polygamy at one > time because of the lack of men, so > > >>> many > > >>>>> having been killed in wars.) > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I have 18 children born to an > Anton Utschig, with the wife as being > > Anna > > >>>>> Catharina.  I found one > marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina > > >>> Pichl/Büchl), > > >>>>> but cannot find the other > marriage, if there were two separate > > >>> marriages. > > >>>>> Or he had a woman on the side, > also named Anna Catharina who born him > > >>> many > > >>>>> children. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> There were three children born to > an Anton and Anna Catharina before > > the > > >>>>> 1728 marriage I found.  This > is important to me because my 3rd great > > >>>>> grandfather belonged to one of the > Anton's and Anna Catharina's. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> These early records do not tell > you much--no occupations listed like > > in > > >>>>> the later records.  No haus > numbers, no names of parents.  Two > > children > > >>>>> born 3 months apart, another two, > 7 months apart.  The rest of the > > >>> children > > >>>>> are spaced out so that they could > belong to either Anna Catharina. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I have also looked to see if there > was a death for the first Anna > > >>>>> Catharina but could not find one. > Yet the children mentioned above > > who > > >>> were > > >>>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 > (Aug and November) and the other in > > >>> 1739 > > >>>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of > children in between).  So my theory > > on > > >>> the > > >>>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold > up.  Too many children born in between > > >>> 1729 > > >>>>> and 1739. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Any insight would be greatly > appreciated.  I hope this makes sense. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Mary > > >>>>> > > >>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society > web site > > >>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >>>>> 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GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > subject and the body of the message >