The links to Hitler films are fascinating, but...where is the links to 'lip reading' software?? Ron -----Original Message----- From: german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of german-bohemian-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 2:00 AM To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Subject: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 58 German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ Today's Topics: 1. New computer software - read lips at almost any angle (Laurence Krupnak) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 11:28:10 -0400 From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net> Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] New computer software - read lips at almost any angle To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <FF48CABA3B724539BC43785530A8B988@user45c476a8b6> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" / New computer software - read lips at almost any angle Do you have old films of your family? Ever wonder what they were talking about? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu5JDzhouyA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnR4ggw_TS4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyXhSzrjTsc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4xwnW-jyN4 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1534830/New-technology-catches-Hitler -off-guard.html _______ Lavrentiy ------------------------------ To contact the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN list administrator, send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-admin@rootsweb.com. To post a message to the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN mailing list, send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com. __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 58 **********************************************

/ New computer software - read lips at almost any angle Do you have old films of your family? Ever wonder what they were talking about? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu5JDzhouyA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnR4ggw_TS4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyXhSzrjTsc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4xwnW-jyN4 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1534830/New-technology-catches-Hitler-off-guard.html _______ Lavrentiy

Thanks for the warning Paul Rudolf -----Original Message----- From: german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mark Prokosch Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:34 PM To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Subject: EXT :Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida I also received the same e-mails. Someone is "Spoofing" Aida's e-mail address. http://www.cert.org/tech_tips/email_spoofing.html Mark Prokosch ************************************************************** Hello Mark, Thank you for the concern, I sent you the mail to ask for your help with the transfer as I'm stranded at the moment and need some money to get back home. Please let me know if you will be able to help me with the loan as soon as possible and I promise to refund the money upon my arrival. Kindly let me know if I should forward you my details for Western union transfer and as soon as I get back home I can refund the money back to you. Unfortunately, I'm unable to make calls, I lost my phone during the incident and I'm only able to access my email for now. Once am able to sort things out, I will call you right away. I hope you understand. Please let me know if you need me to write an agreement stating I will refund you as soon as I get back home, I can definitely do that. Aida ************************************************************************ Hello, How are you doing today? I know this might be a surprise to you but am sorry to reach out to you in this manner. I apologize for not informing you about my travel to England for a Program. Everything is going fine but there's a little problem, I misplaced my wallet on my way back to the hotel and right now all my credit cards and money are gone. Am sending you this message to inform you that am stranded at the moment and need your help financially. Am not sure if you have that much but will you be able to help me with a loan of 1350 British Pounds to pay the hotel bills and get back home. I will appreciate whatever amount you can afford to help me with and am sorry for the inconvenience this message might cause you but please understand that am in a very bad situation right now and would appreciate if you could help me out. Please let me know if you can help! Aida ************************************************************ German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

They are deleted... Glad to hear you had a safe trip back from England!!!! Mark Mark Prokosch From: Aida Kraus [mailto:draytonharbor@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 1:51 PM To: mgprokosch@gmail.com; german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida Mark I received the same mail on one of my other Emails, which is very silly, because he asks help FROM me, FOR me!!! Therefore, I knew immediately that this hacker or spoofer is terrorisig our family at a very difficult time...... I am NOT in England, I have NOT lost my wallet, I do NOT NEED any help. Do not reply, click or consider this mail, just delete it.... Thank you... Aida On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Mark Prokosch <mgprokosch@gmail.com> wrote: I also received the same e-mails. Someone is "Spoofing" Aida's e-mail address. http://www.cert.org/tech_tips/email_spoofing.html Mark Prokosch ************************************************************** Hello Mark, Thank you for the concern, I sent you the mail to ask for your help with the transfer as I'm stranded at the moment and need some money to get back home. Please let me know if you will be able to help me with the loan as soon as possible and I promise to refund the money upon my arrival. Kindly let me know if I should forward you my details for Western union transfer and as soon as I get back home I can refund the money back to you. Unfortunately, I'm unable to make calls, I lost my phone during the incident and I'm only able to access my email for now. Once am able to sort things out, I will call you right away. I hope you understand. Please let me know if you need me to write an agreement stating I will refund you as soon as I get back home, I can definitely do that. Aida ************************************************************************ Hello, How are you doing today? I know this might be a surprise to you but am sorry to reach out to you in this manner. I apologize for not informing you about my travel to England for a Program. Everything is going fine but there's a little problem, I misplaced my wallet on my way back to the hotel and right now all my credit cards and money are gone. Am sending you this message to inform you that am stranded at the moment and need your help financially. Am not sure if you have that much but will you be able to help me with a loan of 1350 British Pounds to pay the hotel bills and get back home. I will appreciate whatever amount you can afford to help me with and am sorry for the inconvenience this message might cause you but please understand that am in a very bad situation right now and would appreciate if you could help me out. Please let me know if you can help! Aida ************************************************************ German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The link to Czech site finally did work a few hours later, though had to ignore spam warnings. Ron -----Original Message----- From: german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of german-bohemian-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:39 PM To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Subject: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 55 German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ Today's Topics: 1. Re: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 54 (ron krzmarzick) 2. Re: For Aida (Mary Read) 3. Czech land ownership maps (Bill) 4. Re: For Aida (Mark Prokosch) 5. Re: EXT :Re: For Aida (Rudolf, Paul (ES)) 6. Re: Czech land ownership maps (Mark Prokosch) 7. Re: For Aida (Aida Kraus) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:22:16 -0500 From: "ron krzmarzick" <rlkrz@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 54 To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <201203141522.q2EFME3w012689@mail.rootsweb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The referred link http://www.shon.150m.com/czechhtm.htm does not respond, and is part of a family tree site. It's the sublink which isn't responding, whereas the tree is available though not trusted site per WOT. Ron -----Original Message----- From: german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of german-bohemian-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:00 AM To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Subject: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 54 German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ Today's Topics: 1. Land Records in Czech Republic (Aida Kraus) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 19:50:08 -0700 From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Land Records in Czech Republic To: GBHS <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <CAMswtwogxq+9j_kimkUf3n7f8ZVpA2LQ7dB6TmrwptdM59UxKA@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Carl Linert provided this information in our correspondence off line. I feel that this should be published on our List, therefore, I am forwarding it to our readership. Most of these records were in German. In fact they Czech language uses German words, like here in "gruntnovy knihy" which is a direct take from the German "Grundbuch." It looks to me, that this was all translated into the Czech language from German and is now available in that language. You may ask for the German version which may be easier to read to some of you. Also if you can answer his questions, it would be greatly appreciated. Submitted by Aida ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Carl Linert <carlgenlnrt@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 6:52 PM Subject: Re: Groom with no last name To: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> I found it. This is the source: http://www.shon.150m.com/czechhtm.htm Land Records Land records are one of the next best sources to church records, and consist of several different types. The primary advantage with land records is that they go back further than the parish registers of births, marriages, and deaths. Often, the same land was passed from generation to generation, and so it is possible to assemble much of your family tree. Land records may be deposited in various archives, (i.e., at the State Central or Regional Archives, or at the town level). They may even be in a special archive. Care must be taken, in determining where a particular land book is, as well. It may be apparent to you that the book should be in the archive you are researching in, when it is not. It may be simply that it is in some other location, so you should check with the archivist to make sure. Land records go back as far as the 13th century, in some cases. When researching land records in the Czech Republic, it is important to be very familiar with the languages and the records themselves, as well as the history behind the records, since finding the right books will take study and training before you go there. But they can be a very good genealogical tool. *Something else to watch out for is the rather unexpected name change of males. Sometimes, when a man marries a widow, he takes on her surname, or the name tied to the house, rather than vice-versa.24<http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/neo/#_edn24> ** * This is the same practice, which exists in northeastern Germany (continuing even today) and in other areas. Since the majority of the people owned at least some land, it is more likely than not that some of your ancestors will show up in these records. In fact, as Melichar says, "a majority of people living in a village (at least two-thirds, but usually more than that) owned a piece of land, and thus they were recorded with their relationships in the land registers. This is the major significance of the land registers for genealogy."025<http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/neo/#_edn25> Land records come under many different appellations, such as *Zemsk? desky *(land tablets), *patriomoni?ln? knihy* (patrimonial books), *bern? ruly* (tax lists), *cadastre* (land registries), *pozemkov? knihy* (land books), *m?stk? knihy* (town books), *urb??e* (land and duties registers) and others. Any of these can be of advantage to the genealogical researcher, but of especial help will be the *bern? ruly* and *pozemkov? knihy*. *Pozemkov? knihy*, or land books, also called *gruntnov? knihy, *are probably the most helpful records for genealogical research, after vital/church records -- and even better, for earlier times. For the time before the Battle of White Mountain in 1620, when many church records were destroyed, this is the primary source of information. It is possible to follow a family far beyond that time, as land was often passed from generation to generation within a family. Most of these *pozemkov? knihy*are deposited in the regional archives. *Bern? ruly*, or tax lists, were begun in 1654. They are lists of tax payers, established on a system to improve the equity and efficiency of the old tax system. Part of this reform involved preventing transfer of peasant land from reverting to domanial land (land of the 'lord'), and vice-versa.26 <http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/neo/#_edn26> Only heads of household who held land are on these records, but it is a good means to find the place of residence of your ancestor. The family history library has some of the *bern? ruly* in published form. The call numbers are: Europe 943.7 B4b v. 1-33 (some volumes missing). For bibliographies on land records, see the following two articles: "Genealogical sources in Bohemia" by Jan Pa?ez, with assistance from Tom Zahn in Na?e Rodina, Dec. 1996, vol. 8, no. 4, p. 132; and "Czech Land Registers and Auxiliary Books" by Rodolf Melichar (translated from Czech by Jan ?ef?ik and Duncan Gardiner) in Ro?enka, vol. 2, Winter 1995-1996. On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Carl Linert <carlgenlnrt@yahoo.com> wrote: Aida, I came across a marriage record from 1642 in Moravia and the groom (never been married) does not have a last name and the bride is widowed. The record just list his first name, his father's first name, and the town he came from. Then when his wife died about a year later, her death record reads she was the spouse of him but lists her last name (previous spouse's name) for his last name. Do you know of why this would be like this? Thanks, Carl ------------------------------ To contact the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN list administrator, send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-admin@rootsweb.com. To post a message to the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN mailing list, send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com. __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 54 ********************************************** ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:54:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <1331747658.31023.YahooMailClassic@web181314.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This is for Aida, I think someone is using your email address and asking for financial assistance. I tried to email you so you could let you know what's going on, but your email address isn't good any more. I'm sure you changed it. Mary (Utschig) ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:02:55 -0500 From: "Bill" <willthon@msn.com> Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Czech land ownership maps To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <BLU152-ds29EFAB460BAEE982F7C09C6590@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Hi All, This may help some that are searching for land records. One will find the map of the villages and lands they farmed/owned. http://www.mza.cz/indikacniskici/ My Google browser automatically translates from Czech to English. The English/British Flag 'icon' does not always work on this website. Would someone give me a brief description of what a parcel of land is that is called a 'hide'. Thanks, Bill Thoendel Hoskins, Nebraska ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:34:13 -0500 From: "Mark Prokosch" <mgprokosch@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <014501cd0211$0e9c0d20$2bd42760$@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I also received the same e-mails. Someone is "Spoofing" Aida's e-mail address. http://www.cert.org/tech_tips/email_spoofing.html Mark Prokosch ************************************************************** Hello Mark, Thank you for the concern, I sent you the mail to ask for your help with the transfer as I'm stranded at the moment and need some money to get back home. Please let me know if you will be able to help me with the loan as soon as possible and I promise to refund the money upon my arrival. Kindly let me know if I should forward you my details for Western union transfer and as soon as I get back home I can refund the money back to you. Unfortunately, I'm unable to make calls, I lost my phone during the incident and I'm only able to access my email for now. Once am able to sort things out, I will call you right away. I hope you understand. Please let me know if you need me to write an agreement stating I will refund you as soon as I get back home, I can definitely do that. Aida ************************************************************************ Hello, How are you doing today? I know this might be a surprise to you but am sorry to reach out to you in this manner. I apologize for not informing you about my travel to England for a Program. Everything is going fine but there's a little problem, I misplaced my wallet on my way back to the hotel and right now all my credit cards and money are gone. Am sending you this message to inform you that am stranded at the moment and need your help financially. Am not sure if you have that much but will you be able to help me with a loan of 1350 British Pounds to pay the hotel bills and get back home. I will appreciate whatever amount you can afford to help me with and am sorry for the inconvenience this message might cause you but please understand that am in a very bad situation right now and would appreciate if you could help me out. Please let me know if you can help! Aida ************************************************************ ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 18:41:53 +0000 From: "Rudolf, Paul (ES)" <paul.rudolf@ngc.com> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] EXT :Re: For Aida To: "german-bohemian@rootsweb.com" <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <4B3B26C834710144BC7900D2F1B3E78418C5D44C@XMBVAG77.northgrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks for the warning Paul Rudolf -----Original Message----- From: german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mark Prokosch Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:34 PM To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Subject: EXT :Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida I also received the same e-mails. Someone is "Spoofing" Aida's e-mail address. http://www.cert.org/tech_tips/email_spoofing.html Mark Prokosch ************************************************************** Hello Mark, Thank you for the concern, I sent you the mail to ask for your help with the transfer as I'm stranded at the moment and need some money to get back home. Please let me know if you will be able to help me with the loan as soon as possible and I promise to refund the money upon my arrival. Kindly let me know if I should forward you my details for Western union transfer and as soon as I get back home I can refund the money back to you. Unfortunately, I'm unable to make calls, I lost my phone during the incident and I'm only able to access my email for now. Once am able to sort things out, I will call you right away. I hope you understand. Please let me know if you need me to write an agreement stating I will refund you as soon as I get back home, I can definitely do that. Aida ************************************************************************ Hello, How are you doing today? I know this might be a surprise to you but am sorry to reach out to you in this manner. I apologize for not informing you about my travel to England for a Program. Everything is going fine but there's a little problem, I misplaced my wallet on my way back to the hotel and right now all my credit cards and money are gone. Am sending you this message to inform you that am stranded at the moment and need your help financially. Am not sure if you have that much but will you be able to help me with a loan of 1350 British Pounds to pay the hotel bills and get back home. I will appreciate whatever amount you can afford to help me with and am sorry for the inconvenience this message might cause you but please understand that am in a very bad situation right now and would appreciate if you could help me out. Please let me know if you can help! Aida ************************************************************ German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:45:42 -0500 From: "Mark Prokosch" <mgprokosch@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Czech land ownership maps To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <017701cd0212$a9409020$fbc1b060$@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Very interesting site, Bill: Has anyone run across a site similar to this covering Western Bohemia? Especially the villages of (Drahotin/Trohatin, Melnice/Melmitz, Horauschen /Horousany)? Likely something stored in Plzen??? Regards, Mark Prokosch -----Original Message----- From: german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bill Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 1:03 PM To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Czech land ownership maps Hi All, This may help some that are searching for land records. One will find the map of the villages and lands they farmed/owned. http://www.mza.cz/indikacniskici/ My Google browser automatically translates from Czech to English. The English/British Flag 'icon' does not always work on this website. Would someone give me a brief description of what a parcel of land is that is called a 'hide'. Thanks, Bill Thoendel Hoskins, Nebraska German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:00:47 -0700 From: Aida Kraus <draytonharbor@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <CAPY_z9zHGQgT8K8mOhe2+X9T85tevymqZ9E17ph+yY6SiSwWYQ@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Yes I changed my email address. It was a scam. Hateful people! Aida On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 10:54 AM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> wrote: > This is for Aida, > I think someone is using your email address and asking for financial > assistance. I tried to email you so you could let you know what's going > on, but your email address isn't good any more. I'm sure you changed it. > > Mary (Utschig) > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------ To contact the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN list administrator, send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-admin@rootsweb.com. To post a message to the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN mailing list, send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com. __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 55 **********************************************

What a wonderful site, Bill.  Unfortunately, it does not seem to cover County Mies (Stribo in Czech).  Anyone know if such maps are available for that area? Jack ________________________________ From: Bill <willthon@msn.com> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 1:02 PM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Czech land ownership maps Hi All, This may help some that are searching for land records. One will find the map of the villages and lands they farmed/owned. http://www.mza.cz/indikacniskici/ My Google browser automatically translates from Czech to English. The English/British Flag 'icon' does not always work on this website. Would someone give me a brief description of what a parcel of land is that is called a 'hide'. Thanks, Bill Thoendel Hoskins, Nebraska German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Very interesting site, Bill: Has anyone run across a site similar to this covering Western Bohemia? Especially the villages of (Drahotin/Trohatin, Melnice/Melmitz, Horauschen /Horousany)? Likely something stored in Plzen??? Regards, Mark Prokosch -----Original Message----- From: german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bill Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 1:03 PM To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Czech land ownership maps Hi All, This may help some that are searching for land records. One will find the map of the villages and lands they farmed/owned. http://www.mza.cz/indikacniskici/ My Google browser automatically translates from Czech to English. The English/British Flag 'icon' does not always work on this website. Would someone give me a brief description of what a parcel of land is that is called a 'hide'. Thanks, Bill Thoendel Hoskins, Nebraska German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I also received the same e-mails. Someone is "Spoofing" Aida's e-mail address. http://www.cert.org/tech_tips/email_spoofing.html Mark Prokosch ************************************************************** Hello Mark, Thank you for the concern, I sent you the mail to ask for your help with the transfer as I'm stranded at the moment and need some money to get back home. Please let me know if you will be able to help me with the loan as soon as possible and I promise to refund the money upon my arrival. Kindly let me know if I should forward you my details for Western union transfer and as soon as I get back home I can refund the money back to you. Unfortunately, I'm unable to make calls, I lost my phone during the incident and I'm only able to access my email for now. Once am able to sort things out, I will call you right away. I hope you understand. Please let me know if you need me to write an agreement stating I will refund you as soon as I get back home, I can definitely do that. Aida ************************************************************************ Hello, How are you doing today? I know this might be a surprise to you but am sorry to reach out to you in this manner. I apologize for not informing you about my travel to England for a Program. Everything is going fine but there's a little problem, I misplaced my wallet on my way back to the hotel and right now all my credit cards and money are gone. Am sending you this message to inform you that am stranded at the moment and need your help financially. Am not sure if you have that much but will you be able to help me with a loan of 1350 British Pounds to pay the hotel bills and get back home. I will appreciate whatever amount you can afford to help me with and am sorry for the inconvenience this message might cause you but please understand that am in a very bad situation right now and would appreciate if you could help me out. Please let me know if you can help! Aida ************************************************************

Hi All, This may help some that are searching for land records. One will find the map of the villages and lands they farmed/owned. http://www.mza.cz/indikacniskici/ My Google browser automatically translates from Czech to English. The English/British Flag 'icon' does not always work on this website. Would someone give me a brief description of what a parcel of land is that is called a 'hide'. Thanks, Bill Thoendel Hoskins, Nebraska

Mark I received the same mail on one of my other Emails, which is very silly, because he asks help FROM me, FOR me!!! Therefore, I knew immediately that this hacker or spoofer is terrorisig our family at a very difficult time...... I am NOT in England, I have NOT lost my wallet, I do NOT NEED any help. Do not reply, click or consider this mail, just delete it.... Thank you... Aida On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Mark Prokosch <mgprokosch@gmail.com>wrote: > I also received the same e-mails. > Someone is "Spoofing" Aida's e-mail address. > http://www.cert.org/tech_tips/email_spoofing.html > > Mark Prokosch > > > ************************************************************** > Hello Mark, > > Thank you for the concern, I sent you the mail to ask for your help with > the > transfer as I'm stranded at the moment and need some money to get back > home. > Please let me know if you will be able to help me with the loan as soon as > possible and I promise to refund the money upon my arrival. Kindly let me > know if I should forward you my details for Western union transfer and as > soon as I get back home I can refund the money back to you. > Unfortunately, I'm unable to make calls, I lost my phone during the > incident > and I'm only able to access my email for now. Once am able to sort things > out, I will call you right away. I hope you understand. > Please let me know if you need me to write an agreement stating I will > refund you as soon as I get back home, I can definitely do that. > > Aida > ************************************************************************ > > Hello, How are you doing today? I know this might be a surprise to you but > am sorry to reach out to you in this manner. I apologize for not informing > you about my travel to England for a Program. > > Everything is going fine but there's a little problem, I misplaced my > wallet > on my way back to the hotel and right now all my credit cards and money are > gone. Am sending you this message to inform you that am stranded at the > moment and need your help financially. Am not sure if you have that much > but > will you be able to help me with a loan of 1350 British Pounds to pay the > hotel bills and get back home. > > I will appreciate whatever amount you can afford to help me with and am > sorry for the inconvenience this message might cause you but please > understand that am in a very bad situation right now and would appreciate > if > you could help me out. > > Please let me know if you can help! > Aida > ************************************************************ > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hide of Land<http://www.websters-dictionary-online.com/definition/Hide+of+Land> Literature<http://www.websters-dictionary-online.com/dictionary.asp?dictionary=Specialty+Dictionary&reference=Hide&education=brewers+dictionary&information=bibliography;software;games;books> No fixed number of "acres," but such a quantity as was valued at a stated geld or tax. A *hide* of good arable land was smaller than a *hide* of inferior quality. Source: Brewer's Dictionary<http://www.websters-dictionary-online.com/dictionary.asp?dictionary=Specialty+Dictionary&reference=Hide&education=brewer+dictionary&information=bibliography;software;games;books> . Seems there is no measure as such given, but probably means the entire farmland belonging to the farmhouse or a "tax base". Aida ----------------------- On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 11:02 AM, Bill <willthon@msn.com> wrote: > Hi All, > This may help some that are searching for land records. > One will find the map of the villages and lands they farmed/owned. > http://www.mza.cz/indikacniskici/ > My Google browser automatically translates from Czech to English. > The English/British Flag 'icon' does not always work on this website. > Would someone give me a brief description of what a parcel of land is that > is called a 'hide'. > Thanks, > Bill Thoendel > Hoskins, Nebraska > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Yes I changed my email address. It was a scam. Hateful people! Aida On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 10:54 AM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> wrote: > This is for Aida, > I think someone is using your email address and asking for financial > assistance. I tried to email you so you could let you know what's going > on, but your email address isn't good any more. I'm sure you changed it. > > Mary (Utschig) > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

This is for Aida, I think someone is using your email address and asking for financial assistance. I tried to email you so you could let you know what's going on, but your email address isn't good any more. I'm sure you changed it. Mary (Utschig)

The referred link http://www.shon.150m.com/czechhtm.htm does not respond, and is part of a family tree site. It's the sublink which isn't responding, whereas the tree is available though not trusted site per WOT. Ron -----Original Message----- From: german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of german-bohemian-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:00 AM To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Subject: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 54 German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ Today's Topics: 1. Land Records in Czech Republic (Aida Kraus) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 19:50:08 -0700 From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Land Records in Czech Republic To: GBHS <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <CAMswtwogxq+9j_kimkUf3n7f8ZVpA2LQ7dB6TmrwptdM59UxKA@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Carl Linert provided this information in our correspondence off line. I feel that this should be published on our List, therefore, I am forwarding it to our readership. Most of these records were in German. In fact they Czech language uses German words, like here in "gruntnovy knihy" which is a direct take from the German "Grundbuch." It looks to me, that this was all translated into the Czech language from German and is now available in that language. You may ask for the German version which may be easier to read to some of you. Also if you can answer his questions, it would be greatly appreciated. Submitted by Aida ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Carl Linert <carlgenlnrt@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 6:52 PM Subject: Re: Groom with no last name To: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> I found it. This is the source: http://www.shon.150m.com/czechhtm.htm Land Records Land records are one of the next best sources to church records, and consist of several different types. The primary advantage with land records is that they go back further than the parish registers of births, marriages, and deaths. Often, the same land was passed from generation to generation, and so it is possible to assemble much of your family tree. Land records may be deposited in various archives, (i.e., at the State Central or Regional Archives, or at the town level). They may even be in a special archive. Care must be taken, in determining where a particular land book is, as well. It may be apparent to you that the book should be in the archive you are researching in, when it is not. It may be simply that it is in some other location, so you should check with the archivist to make sure. Land records go back as far as the 13th century, in some cases. When researching land records in the Czech Republic, it is important to be very familiar with the languages and the records themselves, as well as the history behind the records, since finding the right books will take study and training before you go there. But they can be a very good genealogical tool. *Something else to watch out for is the rather unexpected name change of males. Sometimes, when a man marries a widow, he takes on her surname, or the name tied to the house, rather than vice-versa.24<http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/neo/#_edn24> ** * This is the same practice, which exists in northeastern Germany (continuing even today) and in other areas. Since the majority of the people owned at least some land, it is more likely than not that some of your ancestors will show up in these records. In fact, as Melichar says, "a majority of people living in a village (at least two-thirds, but usually more than that) owned a piece of land, and thus they were recorded with their relationships in the land registers. This is the major significance of the land registers for genealogy."025<http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/neo/#_edn25> Land records come under many different appellations, such as *Zemsk? desky *(land tablets), *patriomoni?ln? knihy* (patrimonial books), *bern? ruly* (tax lists), *cadastre* (land registries), *pozemkov? knihy* (land books), *m?stk? knihy* (town books), *urb??e* (land and duties registers) and others. Any of these can be of advantage to the genealogical researcher, but of especial help will be the *bern? ruly* and *pozemkov? knihy*. *Pozemkov? knihy*, or land books, also called *gruntnov? knihy, *are probably the most helpful records for genealogical research, after vital/church records -- and even better, for earlier times. For the time before the Battle of White Mountain in 1620, when many church records were destroyed, this is the primary source of information. It is possible to follow a family far beyond that time, as land was often passed from generation to generation within a family. Most of these *pozemkov? knihy*are deposited in the regional archives. *Bern? ruly*, or tax lists, were begun in 1654. They are lists of tax payers, established on a system to improve the equity and efficiency of the old tax system. Part of this reform involved preventing transfer of peasant land from reverting to domanial land (land of the 'lord'), and vice-versa.26 <http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/neo/#_edn26> Only heads of household who held land are on these records, but it is a good means to find the place of residence of your ancestor. The family history library has some of the *bern? ruly* in published form. The call numbers are: Europe 943.7 B4b v. 1-33 (some volumes missing). For bibliographies on land records, see the following two articles: "Genealogical sources in Bohemia" by Jan Pa?ez, with assistance from Tom Zahn in Na?e Rodina, Dec. 1996, vol. 8, no. 4, p. 132; and "Czech Land Registers and Auxiliary Books" by Rodolf Melichar (translated from Czech by Jan ?ef?ik and Duncan Gardiner) in Ro?enka, vol. 2, Winter 1995-1996. On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Carl Linert <carlgenlnrt@yahoo.com> wrote: Aida, I came across a marriage record from 1642 in Moravia and the groom (never been married) does not have a last name and the bride is widowed. The record just list his first name, his father's first name, and the town he came from. Then when his wife died about a year later, her death record reads she was the spouse of him but lists her last name (previous spouse's name) for his last name. Do you know of why this would be like this? Thanks, Carl ------------------------------ To contact the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN list administrator, send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-admin@rootsweb.com. To post a message to the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN mailing list, send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com. __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 54 **********************************************

Carl Linert provided this information in our correspondence off line. I feel that this should be published on our List, therefore, I am forwarding it to our readership. Most of these records were in German. In fact they Czech language uses German words, like here in "gruntnovy knihy" which is a direct take from the German "Grundbuch." It looks to me, that this was all translated into the Czech language from German and is now available in that language. You may ask for the German version which may be easier to read to some of you. Also if you can answer his questions, it would be greatly appreciated. Submitted by Aida ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Carl Linert <carlgenlnrt@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 6:52 PM Subject: Re: Groom with no last name To: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> I found it. This is the source: http://www.shon.150m.com/czechhtm.htm Land Records Land records are one of the next best sources to church records, and consist of several different types. The primary advantage with land records is that they go back further than the parish registers of births, marriages, and deaths. Often, the same land was passed from generation to generation, and so it is possible to assemble much of your family tree. Land records may be deposited in various archives, (i.e., at the State Central or Regional Archives, or at the town level). They may even be in a special archive. Care must be taken, in determining where a particular land book is, as well. It may be apparent to you that the book should be in the archive you are researching in, when it is not. It may be simply that it is in some other location, so you should check with the archivist to make sure. Land records go back as far as the 13th century, in some cases. When researching land records in the Czech Republic, it is important to be very familiar with the languages and the records themselves, as well as the history behind the records, since finding the right books will take study and training before you go there. But they can be a very good genealogical tool. *Something else to watch out for is the rather unexpected name change of males. Sometimes, when a man marries a widow, he takes on her surname, or the name tied to the house, rather than vice-versa.24<http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/neo/#_edn24> ** * This is the same practice, which exists in northeastern Germany (continuing even today) and in other areas. Since the majority of the people owned at least some land, it is more likely than not that some of your ancestors will show up in these records. In fact, as Melichar says, "a majority of people living in a village (at least two-thirds, but usually more than that) owned a piece of land, and thus they were recorded with their relationships in the land registers. This is the major significance of the land registers for genealogy."025<http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/neo/#_edn25> Land records come under many different appellations, such as *Zemské desky *(land tablets), *patriomoniální knihy* (patrimonial books), *berní ruly* (tax lists), *cadastre* (land registries), *pozemkové knihy* (land books), *městké knihy* (town books), *urbáře* (land and duties registers) and others. Any of these can be of advantage to the genealogical researcher, but of especial help will be the *berní ruly* and *pozemkové knihy*. *Pozemkové knihy*, or land books, also called *gruntnoví knihy, *are probably the most helpful records for genealogical research, after vital/church records -- and even better, for earlier times. For the time before the Battle of White Mountain in 1620, when many church records were destroyed, this is the primary source of information. It is possible to follow a family far beyond that time, as land was often passed from generation to generation within a family. Most of these *pozemkové knihy*are deposited in the regional archives. *Berní ruly*, or tax lists, were begun in 1654. They are lists of tax payers, established on a system to improve the equity and efficiency of the old tax system. Part of this reform involved preventing transfer of peasant land from reverting to domanial land (land of the 'lord'), and vice-versa.26 <http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/neo/#_edn26> Only heads of household who held land are on these records, but it is a good means to find the place of residence of your ancestor. The family history library has some of the *berní ruly* in published form. The call numbers are: Europe 943.7 B4b v. 1-33 (some volumes missing). For bibliographies on land records, see the following two articles: "Genealogical sources in Bohemia" by Jan Pařez, with assistance from Tom Zahn in Naše Rodina, Dec. 1996, vol. 8, no. 4, p. 132; and "Czech Land Registers and Auxiliary Books" by Rodolf Melichar (translated from Czech by Jan Šefčik and Duncan Gardiner) in Ročenka, vol. 2, Winter 1995-1996. On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Carl Linert <carlgenlnrt@yahoo.com> wrote: Aida, I came across a marriage record from 1642 in Moravia and the groom (never been married) does not have a last name and the bride is widowed. The record just list his first name, his father's first name, and the town he came from. Then when his wife died about a year later, her death record reads she was the spouse of him but lists her last name (previous spouse's name) for his last name. Do you know of why this would be like this? Thanks, Carl

Sorry, I do not maintain my own website, but on the list you can find my answers to questions posed there. You can find them under the subject and the originators name on the GBHS Archives at this site: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Aida On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 10:10 PM, Brandt Gibson <ironhide781@hotmail.com>wrote: > > Aida, do you have a blog or a website where you post all of this > information you have? It's so hard to pull it all out of emails like this. > If you don't have a blog, you should start one! I would read it. Brandt > > From: german-bohemian-request@rootsweb.com > > Subject: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 38 > > To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 09:50:37 -0700 > > > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Austrian Hungarian Military (Aida Kraus) > > 2. Re: Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's in Bohemia? > > (Robert Paulson) > > 3. Re: Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's in Bohemia? > > (Aida Kraus) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 06:19:23 -0800 > > From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Austrian Hungarian Military > > To: GBHS <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > > Message-ID: > > < > CAMswtwquvTQRw7JKXsA4Y7pwgSNh7ZXd216GNS2RjE1LtOnMUQ@mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > The *Military of Austria-Hungary*, comprising the Armed Forces, War > Office, > > and intelligence organisations of the Dual > > Monarchy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_Monarchy>served as one of > > the Empire's core unifying institutions and primary > > instruments for defense as well as external power > > projection<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_projection>. > > The history of the > > Austro-Hungarian<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria-Hungary>military > > begins when the > > Habsburgs <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habsburgs> established > hereditary > > rule over Austrian lands in the *13th century and stretches until the > fall > > of the Habsburgs, at the end of **World War > > I*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I> > > *,* during which time their armies were among the largest and most > > significant in Europe <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe>. Though not > as > > powerful as some of its contemporaries, the military of Austria-Hungary's > > scale, resources, organization, technology and training were one of the > > central factors determining conferral of 'great > > power'<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_power>status on the empire > > for much of the 19th and early 20th centuries. > > *(Note from Aida: please note the time of the Austrian empire's > > existence which was from the 13th century to WW1 1918, while Germany was > > not more than just a conglomerate of Duchies and small Kingdoms of which > > Bavaria was the largest. Germany as a "country" only existed during the > > first Reich, which was the holy Roman Empire and included > > Austria**(911?1806), the second "Reich" was under the > > ** Prussian **House of > > Hohenzollern*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Hohenzollern> > > *, known in English as the **German > > Empire*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Empire> > > * (1871?1918) after that came the** republic informally called the > **Weimar > > Republic* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic>* (1919?33), and > > the third Reich was a National Socialist State under Hitler **(1933?45) > who > > attempted to annex all Germanic lands as they existed under the First > Reich > > of 911-1806 in attempt to unify the country as it existed from 911-1806, > > after all German lands were split away from the motherland by the Treaty > of > > Versailles in 1918 after WW1).* > > * **Military in Austria Hungary:* > > It was composed of three parts: the joint army (Gemeinsame Armee - Common > > Army - recruited from all parts of the country), the Austrian Landwehr > > (recruited from Cisleithania), and the Hungarian Honv?ds?g (recruited > from > > Transleithania).The joint "Imperial and Royal Army" (kaiserlich und > > k?nigliche Armee or k.u.k.) units were generally poorly trained and had > > very limited access to new equipment because the governments of the > > Austrian and Hungarian parts of the empire often preferred to generously > > fund their own units instead of outfitting all three army branches > equally. > > In the late 19th century the army was used to suppress unrest in urban > > areas of the empire: in 1882 and 1887 in Vienna[4] and notably against > > German nationalists at Graz and Czech nationalists in Prague in November > > 1897[5]. Soldiers under the command of Conrad von Hotzendorf were also > used > > against Italian rioters in Trieste in 1902.[6] > > > > The most significant action by soldiers of the Dual Monarchy in this > period > > was the occupation of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the summer of 1878. > > > > In 1868 the number of active-duty troops in the army was 255,000, and the > > total could be expanded to 800,000 upon mobilization. However, this was > > significantly less than the European powers of France, the North German > > Confederation and Russia, each of which could field more than one million > > men.[8] Though the population of the empire had risen to nearly 50 > million > > by 1900, the size of the army was tied to ceilings established in 1889. > > Thus, at the turn of the century Austria-Hungary conscripted only 0.29% > of > > its population, compared to 0.47% in Germany, 0.35% in Russia and 0.75% > in > > France.[9] The 1889 army law was not revised until 1912, which allowed > for > > an increase in annual conscriptions.[10] > > -- *Ethnic and religious composition > > *The ethnic make-up of the enlisted ranks reflected the diversity of the > > empire the army served; in 1906, out of every 1000 enlisted men, there > were > > 267 Germans, 223 Hungarians, 135 Czechs, 85 Poles, 81 Ruthenians (or > > Ukrainians), 67 Croats and Serbs, 64 Romanians, 38 Slovaks, 26 Slovenes, > > and 14 Italians.[11] > > >From a religious standpoint, the Austro-Hungarian army officer corps was > > dominated by Catholics. In 1896, out of 1000 officers, 791 were > Catholics, > > 86 Protestants, 84 Jews, 39 Greek-Orthodox, and one Uniate. Of the > > pre-World War military forces of the major European powers, the > > Austro-Hungarian army was almost alone in its regular promotion of Jews > to > > positions of command.[12] While the Jewish population of the lands of the > > Dual Monarchy was about 5%, Jews made up nearly 18% of the reserve > officer > > corps.[13] There were no official barriers to military service for Jews, > > but in later years this tolerance eroded to some extent, as important > > figures such as Conrad von Hotzendorf and Franz Ferdinand sometimes > > expressed anti-Jewish sentiments. Franz Ferdinand was also accused (by > > Conrad) of discriminating against Protestant > officers.[14]Austro-Hungarian > > Army in July 1914 > > 30,000 Officers > > 410,000 NCOs and troops > > 87,000 horses (estimate) > > 1,200 artillery pieces > > > > Official designations were as follows: > > regiments of the joint army were designated Imperial and Royal (German: > > "kaiserlich und k?niglich" (k.u.k.); Hungarian: "Cs?sz?ri ?s Kir?lyi") > > Austrian Landwehr regiments were Imperial/Royal (German: > > "kaiserlich/k?niglich" (k.k.) (which stands for *Imperial Austrian / > Royal > > Bohemian (kaiserlich ?sterreichisch/k?niglich b?hmisch));* Hungarian: > > "cs?sz?ri/kir?lyi") > > Hungarian Honv?d regiments, or "Honv?ds?g", were called Royal Hungarian > > (German: "k?niglich ungarisch"; Hungarian: "Magyar Kir?lyi") > > The soldiers generally had to serve 2 years, after they finished their > > apprenticeships or educaton. > > They were "mustered" between the ages 18 and 22. > > > > For general reading I have copied this for you from the Internet, but you > > may read it in more detail at the link below, where you can also have a > > look at the individual uniforms : > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Hungarian Army\ > > Submitted by Aida > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 10:33:29 -0600 > > From: Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> > > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in > > 1700's in Bohemia? > > To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > Message-ID: <3D61278C-D8FB-4748-9CBF-0AF6AB7C67C0@yahoo.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > > Aida, Here is a "for instance" from my Swedish family. My gr-grandfather > Jon Paulson came from a family of itinerant farm laborers who moved > > from place to place to find work. The boys were "farmed out" at a very > early age to work. They lived in a Backstugen which nothing was more than > a dugout in the side of a hill. > > Anyway, Jon meet Anna Katrina, then a widow, he was 20 she was 31. Anna > gave birth to a son and continued to live with her parents. > > Jon traveled to a neighboring parish some 50 miles away to find work. > He fathered another child four years later and then Jon and Anna Katrina > were married and they lived > > together near where Jon was working. They had two more children before > the family emigrated in 1893. Jon had preceded the family, coming to > America by four years where he > > worked as a surveyour on the Great Northern RR. > > Bob > > On Feb 14, 2012, at 12:48 AM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > > > > Bob, I have never heard of this, so I really cannot say. Most of the > > > Egerland families supported one another when the chips were down. > But it > > > could have been different during industrial development areas in the > late > > > 19th century. I understood that the question was posed for ancestors > in > > > the 18th century when agricultural life was still very dominant. > Having a > > > concubine would have been possible only for someone who could afford > > > "keeping a woman", like the nobility, statesmen, people who had jobs > away > > > from their homebase. And that does not include farmers. Bohemia was > > > nothing like "England" who traded worldwide being an island. Bohemia > was a > > > landlocked area where most of the families were stout Catholics and the > > > financial status among them was not as crass between rich and poor as > it > > > was in England for many centuries. The poor on the continent were not > > > quite as destitute as in Britain, because the Monarchy made the > Nobility > > > responsible for the welfare of the people in their regions. There was a > > > poor house in every village to care for widows with families or infirm > > > people; and the nobility would either provide financial help or offer > > > employment in the country villages and the same happened in the cities, > > > where poor people were supported by the Burghers and often even the > > > guilds. Do not mix up the stories you hear from Ireland, England, or > any > > > other places, because it was a very regulated life in the Austrian > > > Hungarian Monarchy. Even new settlers to a new area were provided with > a > > > newly built farm house and acreage, they never had to live in sod > houses or > > > fend for themselves. If there was a lack of some kind due to tragedy > in a > > > family, then the churches would step in to provide the necessities on > a > > > community caring level. Our people were not as kind to traveling > folks, > > > but natives in villages and cities were taken care of by their > relatives, > > > neighbors, poor houses, and church alms. > > > However, it is realistic enough that it would not preclude that > some > > > babies were born on the "other side of the blanket". Children, in > general, > > > were needed and very welcome. The larger the family, the stronger the > > > entire family, because they had "enough hands" to work. Children > made a > > > family "wealthy" because they started to contribute to the farm income > very > > > early and were taught raising small animals and gathering of wild > > > growing food in nature (mushrooms, nettles, rosehips, wild fruit, > roots as > > > well as vegetables and fruit from their gardens) which was the basis > for > > > their daily meals. The children took care of this from 6 - 14 years of > > > age, and then they generally left the family thereafter when they > > > apprenticed for a job. Marriages for men at age 17 and women 16 were > quite > > > common, because in "taking over the family farm" many young men could > avoid > > > military service. > > > Aida > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > > > >> Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not marry until the man > could > > >> prove that he was finically able to support a family? > > >> I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he community did not > want > > >> to support a family that was not able to provide for itself > > >> > > >> On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > >> > > >>> Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian Army (and please don't > forget > > >> that > > >>> that this Army existed for 400 years) all soldiers of lower ranks > were > > >>> not allowed to marry while in service. It was different in officers > > >> ranks, > > >>> but then the father of the bride had to pay a dowry of 20,000 Kronen > as > > >>> "Kaution" (security). I do not know the exact legal ramification on > > >> that, > > >>> so you must read up on it. I just know the story from our family, > where > > >> my > > >>> aunt's arguments with her father were fierce, because she desired to > > >>> receive that money from him for her marriage. Since my grandfather > had 6 > > >>> daughters, he most certainly could not single out one of them with > this > > >>> privilege. > > >>> And yes, these entries you found in the registers are indeed > these > > >>> "early born" children who were declared legitimate as soon as the > father > > >>> came back from his tour of duty. The Church was understanding in > this, > > >>> because the couple was not able to marry while the groom was serving > in > > >> the > > >>> Military. > > >>> Aida > > >>> > > >>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Aide, > > >>>> > > >>>> Wondering about something you wrote below about Military Service, > > >> Marriage > > >>>> and Births. > > >>>> > > >>>> Sometimes I notice in church registers that a woman gives birth to a > > >> child > > >>>> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later date, it appears a Father's > name > > >>>> was added and illigitamet is crossed out and ligitamete added. > > >>>> > > >>>> Would this be likely one of those times when the Father was away > with > > >> the > > >>>> military? Would adding a Fathers name in such a situation happen > fairly > > >>>> regularly? > > >>>> > > >>>> Speaking of Military Service. In peace time ( was there any? ), > what was > > >>>> the requirement of males to military service? Did they ALL have to > > >> service > > >>>> or was it voluntary? > > >>>> > > >>>> Thanks again, > > >>>> > > >>>> Elaine in Maine > > >>>> > > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > > >>>>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM > > >>>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in > > >> 1700's > > >>>> in Bohemia? > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood that our very Catholic families > who > > >>>> were > > >>>>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl were polygamous. What you are > > >>>>> encountering is this. The Utschig were a HUGE family. Every > family > > >> had > > >>>>> many children, They became each others sponsors at birth and so the > > >> same > > >>>>> first names come up again and again. If the births were only 3 or > 7 > > >>>> months > > >>>>> apart, then you must look into the names of the father and mother, > and > > >>>> even > > >>>>> there you may encounter the same names. So, since no house > nunbers are > > >>>>> given, you have to diagram your family members with their birth > dates. > > >>>>> Eventually you will find out into which families they could they > fit > > >> it. > > >>>>> This is just your guideline. > > >>>>> I had a similar situation where three brothers had children > and > > >>>>> all of them used the same first names over and over again. And > then, > > >> the > > >>>>> children of the NEXT generation were given the exactly same names > by > > >> their > > >>>>> related sponsors, which of course were family member, brothers > sisters, > > >>>>> cousins, and still - to this day - that whole clan is somewhat of > a > > >>>> puzzle > > >>>>> to what family they belong; but it was not unusual that a woman > gave > > >>>> birth > > >>>>> to 19 children.... one every year until menopause.. That does not > mean > > >>>> that > > >>>>> they all survived, but they are, or course, listed as births in > the > > >>>> church > > >>>>> register. So go then to the death register and see who was listed > > >> there > > >>>>> and there they also give the names of the parents. It will help > you to > > >>>>> sort out the families. If you compare birth register to death > register > > >>>> you > > >>>>> will find more clarity. > > >>>>> Go back as far as you can and write down the names of the > > >> couples > > >>>>> (meaning families of siblings). Then, write down the names of > their > > >>>>> children and next to it the birth date and if you find a death > entry as > > >>>>> well...... > > >>>>> And then see, how they fit. > > >>>>> And this is the way you can sort it out. > > >>>>> Good luck. > > >>>>> Birth of 18 children is absolutely possible, we have found that > many > > >>>> times > > >>>>> and from the same couple. Thre are also multiple marriages, but > forget > > >>>>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were far to religious. Pre marital > > >> birth > > >>>> of > > >>>>> children are possible, because the men were not able to marry > while in > > >>>>> military service and could not wait that long. They usually > married > > >>>>> immediately when they were released. > > >>>>> As far as children born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my > > >>>>> mother's side gave birth to 13 children in the late 1800, of which > 7 > > >> lived > > >>>>> through their childhood diseases which killed many of their > siblings. > > >> The > > >>>>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, Diphteria, whooping cough, > "Pocken" > > >>>>> which is smallpox and disentery. > > >>>>> They solely relied on herbal medicines then. > > >>>>> Aida > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> > > >> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife > > >> (polygamy) > > >>>> in > > >>>>>> the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines? (I > understand > > >> in > > >>>>>> Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of > men, so > > >>>> many > > >>>>>> having been killed in wars.) > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as > being > > >> Anna > > >>>>>> Catharina. I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina > > >>>> Pichl/B?chl), > > >>>>>> but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate > > >>>> marriages. > > >>>>>> Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who born > him > > >>>> many > > >>>>>> children. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina > before > > >> the > > >>>>>> 1728 marriage I found. This is important to me because my 3rd > great > > >>>>>> grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed > like > > >> in > > >>>>>> the later records. No haus numbers, no names of parents. Two > > >> children > > >>>>>> born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart. The rest of the > > >>>> children > > >>>>>> are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna Catharina. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first Anna > > >>>>>> Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned > above who > > >>>> were > > >>>>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the > other in > > >>>> 1739 > > >>>>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between). So my > theory > > >> on > > >>>> the > > >>>>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold up. Too many children born in > between > > >>>> 1729 > > >>>>>> and 1739. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I hope this makes > sense. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Mary > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > >>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >>>>>> ------------------------------- > > >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >>>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >>>> without > > >>>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >>>>> ------------------------------- > > >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> without > > >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >>>> ------------------------------- > > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> without > > >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >>>> > > >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >>> ------------------------------- > > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > >> > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >> ------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscr > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 08:50:33 -0800 > > From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in > > 1700's in Bohemia? > > To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > Message-ID: > > < > CAMswtwpWVhMk60e9vvfqpS03E40DTd28mC1h1UgYp1EvzbKK3w@mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > Bob, you cannot apply Swedish family life to that of the continent. As I > > have stated before, the maritime countries had a very different culture > > than the landlocked European Interior. > > Also the Northern countries were mostly Protestant and with it quite a > > different culture developed versus the stout Catholic or Greek Orthodox > > church influence on the mainland which was less flexible. > > Aida > > > > On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 8:33 AM, Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > > > Aida, Here is a "for instance" from my Swedish family. My > gr-grandfather > > > Jon Paulson came from a family of itinerant farm laborers who moved > > > from place to place to find work. The boys were "farmed out" at a very > > > early age to work. They lived in a Backstugen which nothing was more > than > > > a dugout in the side of a hill. > > > Anyway, Jon meet Anna Katrina, then a widow, he was 20 she was 31. > Anna > > > gave birth to a son and continued to live with her parents. > > > Jon traveled to a neighboring parish some 50 miles away to find work. > He > > > fathered another child four years later and then Jon and Anna Katrina > were > > > married and they lived > > > together near where Jon was working. They had two more children before > the > > > family emigrated in 1893. Jon had preceded the family, coming to > America > > > by four years where he > > > worked as a surveyour on the Great Northern RR. > > > Bob > > > On Feb 14, 2012, at 12:48 AM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > > > > > > Bob, I have never heard of this, so I really cannot say. Most of the > > > > Egerland families supported one another when the chips were down. > But > > > it > > > > could have been different during industrial development areas in the > late > > > > 19th century. I understood that the question was posed for > ancestors in > > > > the 18th century when agricultural life was still very dominant. > Having > > > a > > > > concubine would have been possible only for someone who could afford > > > > "keeping a woman", like the nobility, statesmen, people who had jobs > away > > > > from their homebase. And that does not include farmers. Bohemia was > > > > nothing like "England" who traded worldwide being an island. Bohemia > > > was a > > > > landlocked area where most of the families were stout Catholics and > the > > > > financial status among them was not as crass between rich and poor > as it > > > > was in England for many centuries. The poor on the continent were > not > > > > quite as destitute as in Britain, because the Monarchy made the > Nobility > > > > responsible for the welfare of the people in their regions. There > was a > > > > poor house in every village to care for widows with families or > infirm > > > > people; and the nobility would either provide financial help or > offer > > > > employment in the country villages and the same happened in the > cities, > > > > where poor people were supported by the Burghers and often even the > > > > guilds. Do not mix up the stories you hear from Ireland, England, > or > > > any > > > > other places, because it was a very regulated life in the Austrian > > > > Hungarian Monarchy. Even new settlers to a new area were provided > with a > > > > newly built farm house and acreage, they never had to live in sod > houses > > > or > > > > fend for themselves. If there was a lack of some kind due to > tragedy in > > > a > > > > family, then the churches would step in to provide the necessities > on a > > > > community caring level. Our people were not as kind to traveling > folks, > > > > but natives in villages and cities were taken care of by their > relatives, > > > > neighbors, poor houses, and church alms. > > > > However, it is realistic enough that it would not preclude that > some > > > > babies were born on the "other side of the blanket". Children, in > > > general, > > > > were needed and very welcome. The larger the family, the stronger the > > > > entire family, because they had "enough hands" to work. Children > made > > > a > > > > family "wealthy" because they started to contribute to the farm > income > > > very > > > > early and were taught raising small animals and gathering of wild > > > > growing food in nature (mushrooms, nettles, rosehips, wild fruit, > roots > > > as > > > > well as vegetables and fruit from their gardens) which was the > basis for > > > > their daily meals. The children took care of this from 6 - 14 years > of > > > > age, and then they generally left the family thereafter when they > > > > apprenticed for a job. Marriages for men at age 17 and women 16 were > > > quite > > > > common, because in "taking over the family farm" many young men could > > > avoid > > > > military service. > > > > Aida > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not marry until the man > > > could > > > >> prove that he was finically able to support a family? > > > >> I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he community did > not > > > want > > > >> to support a family that was not able to provide for itself > > > >> > > > >> On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian Army (and please don't > forget > > > >> that > > > >>> that this Army existed for 400 years) all soldiers of lower ranks > were > > > >>> not allowed to marry while in service. It was different in officers > > > >> ranks, > > > >>> but then the father of the bride had to pay a dowry of 20,000 > Kronen as > > > >>> "Kaution" (security). I do not know the exact legal ramification > on > > > >> that, > > > >>> so you must read up on it. I just know the story from our family, > > > where > > > >> my > > > >>> aunt's arguments with her father were fierce, because she desired > to > > > >>> receive that money from him for her marriage. Since my grandfather > > > had 6 > > > >>> daughters, he most certainly could not single out one of them with > this > > > >>> privilege. > > > >>> And yes, these entries you found in the registers are indeed > these > > > >>> "early born" children who were declared legitimate as soon as the > > > father > > > >>> came back from his tour of duty. The Church was understanding in > > > this, > > > >>> because the couple was not able to marry while the groom was > serving in > > > >> the > > > >>> Military. > > > >>> Aida > > > >>> > > > >>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> Aide, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Wondering about something you wrote below about Military Service, > > > >> Marriage > > > >>>> and Births. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Sometimes I notice in church registers that a woman gives birth > to a > > > >> child > > > >>>> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later date, it appears a > Father's > > > name > > > >>>> was added and illigitamet is crossed out and ligitamete added. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Would this be likely one of those times when the Father was away > with > > > >> the > > > >>>> military? Would adding a Fathers name in such a situation happen > > > fairly > > > >>>> regularly? > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Speaking of Military Service. In peace time ( was there any? ), > what > > > was > > > >>>> the requirement of males to military service? Did they ALL have > to > > > >> service > > > >>>> or was it voluntary? > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Thanks again, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Elaine in Maine > > > >>>> > > > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > > >>>>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > > > >>>>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM > > > >>>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines > in > > > >> 1700's > > > >>>> in Bohemia? > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood that our very Catholic > families > > > who > > > >>>> were > > > >>>>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl were polygamous. What you > are > > > >>>>> encountering is this. The Utschig were a HUGE family. Every > family > > > >> had > > > >>>>> many children, They became each others sponsors at birth and so > the > > > >> same > > > >>>>> first names come up again and again. If the births were only 3 > or 7 > > > >>>> months > > > >>>>> apart, then you must look into the names of the father and > mother, > > > and > > > >>>> even > > > >>>>> there you may encounter the same names. So, since no house > nunbers > > > are > > > >>>>> given, you have to diagram your family members with their birth > > > dates. > > > >>>>> Eventually you will find out into which families they could they > fit > > > >> it. > > > >>>>> This is just your guideline. > > > >>>>> I had a similar situation where three brothers had children > and > > > >>>>> all of them used the same first names over and over again. And > > > then, > > > >> the > > > >>>>> children of the NEXT generation were given the exactly same > names by > > > >> their > > > >>>>> related sponsors, which of course were family member, brothers > > > sisters, > > > >>>>> cousins, and still - to this day - that whole clan is somewhat > of a > > > >>>> puzzle > > > >>>>> to what family they belong; but it was not unusual that a woman > gave > > > >>>> birth > > > >>>>> to 19 children.... one every year until menopause.. That does not > > > mean > > > >>>> that > > > >>>>> they all survived, but they are, or course, listed as births in > the > > > >>>> church > > > >>>>> register. So go then to the death register and see who was > listed > > > >> there > > > >>>>> and there they also give the names of the parents. It will help > you > > > to > > > >>>>> sort out the families. If you compare birth register to death > > > register > > > >>>> you > > > >>>>> will find more clarity. > > > >>>>> Go back as far as you can and write down the names of the > > > >> couples > > > >>>>> (meaning families of siblings). Then, write down the names of > their > > > >>>>> children and next to it the birth date and if you find a death > entry > > > as > > > >>>>> well...... > > > >>>>> And then see, how they fit. > > > >>>>> And this is the way you can sort it out. > > > >>>>> Good luck. > > > >>>>> Birth of 18 children is absolutely possible, we have found that > many > > > >>>> times > > > >>>>> and from the same couple. Thre are also multiple marriages, but > > > forget > > > >>>>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were far to religious. Pre > marital > > > >> birth > > > >>>> of > > > >>>>> children are possible, because the men were not able to marry > while > > > in > > > >>>>> military service and could not wait that long. They usually > married > > > >>>>> immediately when they were released. > > > >>>>> As far as children born to a family goes, my own grandmother on > my > > > >>>>> mother's side gave birth to 13 children in the late 1800, of > which 7 > > > >> lived > > > >>>>> through their childhood diseases which killed many of their > siblings. > > > >> The > > > >>>>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, Diphteria, whooping cough, > > > "Pocken" > > > >>>>> which is smallpox and disentery. > > > >>>>> They solely relied on herbal medicines then. > > > >>>>> Aida > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary Read < > maryutschig@yahoo.com> > > > >> wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>> I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife > > > >> (polygamy) > > > >>>> in > > > >>>>>> the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines? (I > understand > > > >> in > > > >>>>>> Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of > men, > > > so > > > >>>> many > > > >>>>>> having been killed in wars.) > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as > being > > > >> Anna > > > >>>>>> Catharina. I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina > > > >>>> Pichl/B?chl), > > > >>>>>> but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate > > > >>>> marriages. > > > >>>>>> Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who > born > > > him > > > >>>> many > > > >>>>>> children. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina > before > > > >> the > > > >>>>>> 1728 marriage I found. This is important to me because my 3rd > great > > > >>>>>> grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed > like > > > >> in > > > >>>>>> the later records. No haus numbers, no names of parents. Two > > > >> children > > > >>>>>> born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart. The rest of > the > > > >>>> children > > > >>>>>> are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna > Catharina. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first > Anna > > > >>>>>> Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned > above > > > who > > > >>>> were > > > >>>>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the > other > > > in > > > >>>> 1739 > > > >>>>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between). So my > theory > > > >> on > > > >>>> the > > > >>>>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold up. Too many children born in > between > > > >>>> 1729 > > > >>>>>> and 1739. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I hope this makes > sense. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Mary > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > > >>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >>>>>> ------------------------------- > > > >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > >>>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > >>>> without > > > >>>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >>>>> ------------------------------- > > > >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > >> without > > > >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >>>> ------------------------------- > > > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > >> without > > > >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >>>> > > > >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >>> ------------------------------- > > > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > >> ------------------------------- > > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >> > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscr > > > > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > To contact the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN list administrator, send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > > To post a message to the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN mailing list, send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com. > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the > body of the > > email with no additional text. > > > > > > End of GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 38 > > ********************************************** > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Aida, do you have a blog or a website where you post all of this information you have? It's so hard to pull it all out of emails like this. If you don't have a blog, you should start one! I would read it. Brandt > From: german-bohemian-request@rootsweb.com > Subject: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 38 > To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 09:50:37 -0700 > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Austrian Hungarian Military (Aida Kraus) > 2. Re: Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's in Bohemia? > (Robert Paulson) > 3. Re: Multiple marriages or concubines in 1700's in Bohemia? > (Aida Kraus) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 06:19:23 -0800 > From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Austrian Hungarian Military > To: GBHS <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: > <CAMswtwquvTQRw7JKXsA4Y7pwgSNh7ZXd216GNS2RjE1LtOnMUQ@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > The *Military of Austria-Hungary*, comprising the Armed Forces, War Office, > and intelligence organisations of the Dual > Monarchy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_Monarchy>served as one of > the Empire's core unifying institutions and primary > instruments for defense as well as external power > projection<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_projection>. > The history of the > Austro-Hungarian<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria-Hungary>military > begins when the > Habsburgs <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habsburgs> established hereditary > rule over Austrian lands in the *13th century and stretches until the fall > of the Habsburgs, at the end of **World War > I*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I> > *,* during which time their armies were among the largest and most > significant in Europe <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe>. Though not as > powerful as some of its contemporaries, the military of Austria-Hungary's > scale, resources, organization, technology and training were one of the > central factors determining conferral of 'great > power'<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_power>status on the empire > for much of the 19th and early 20th centuries. > *(Note from Aida: please note the time of the Austrian empire's > existence which was from the 13th century to WW1 1918, while Germany was > not more than just a conglomerate of Duchies and small Kingdoms of which > Bavaria was the largest. Germany as a "country" only existed during the > first Reich, which was the holy Roman Empire and included > Austria**(911?1806), the second "Reich" was under the > ** Prussian **House of > Hohenzollern*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Hohenzollern> > *, known in English as the **German > Empire*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Empire> > * (1871?1918) after that came the** republic informally called the **Weimar > Republic* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic>* (1919?33), and > the third Reich was a National Socialist State under Hitler **(1933?45) who > attempted to annex all Germanic lands as they existed under the First Reich > of 911-1806 in attempt to unify the country as it existed from 911-1806, > after all German lands were split away from the motherland by the Treaty of > Versailles in 1918 after WW1).* > * **Military in Austria Hungary:* > It was composed of three parts: the joint army (Gemeinsame Armee - Common > Army - recruited from all parts of the country), the Austrian Landwehr > (recruited from Cisleithania), and the Hungarian Honv?ds?g (recruited from > Transleithania).The joint "Imperial and Royal Army" (kaiserlich und > k?nigliche Armee or k.u.k.) units were generally poorly trained and had > very limited access to new equipment because the governments of the > Austrian and Hungarian parts of the empire often preferred to generously > fund their own units instead of outfitting all three army branches equally. > In the late 19th century the army was used to suppress unrest in urban > areas of the empire: in 1882 and 1887 in Vienna[4] and notably against > German nationalists at Graz and Czech nationalists in Prague in November > 1897[5]. Soldiers under the command of Conrad von Hotzendorf were also used > against Italian rioters in Trieste in 1902.[6] > > The most significant action by soldiers of the Dual Monarchy in this period > was the occupation of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the summer of 1878. > > In 1868 the number of active-duty troops in the army was 255,000, and the > total could be expanded to 800,000 upon mobilization. However, this was > significantly less than the European powers of France, the North German > Confederation and Russia, each of which could field more than one million > men.[8] Though the population of the empire had risen to nearly 50 million > by 1900, the size of the army was tied to ceilings established in 1889. > Thus, at the turn of the century Austria-Hungary conscripted only 0.29% of > its population, compared to 0.47% in Germany, 0.35% in Russia and 0.75% in > France.[9] The 1889 army law was not revised until 1912, which allowed for > an increase in annual conscriptions.[10] > -- *Ethnic and religious composition > *The ethnic make-up of the enlisted ranks reflected the diversity of the > empire the army served; in 1906, out of every 1000 enlisted men, there were > 267 Germans, 223 Hungarians, 135 Czechs, 85 Poles, 81 Ruthenians (or > Ukrainians), 67 Croats and Serbs, 64 Romanians, 38 Slovaks, 26 Slovenes, > and 14 Italians.[11] > >From a religious standpoint, the Austro-Hungarian army officer corps was > dominated by Catholics. In 1896, out of 1000 officers, 791 were Catholics, > 86 Protestants, 84 Jews, 39 Greek-Orthodox, and one Uniate. Of the > pre-World War military forces of the major European powers, the > Austro-Hungarian army was almost alone in its regular promotion of Jews to > positions of command.[12] While the Jewish population of the lands of the > Dual Monarchy was about 5%, Jews made up nearly 18% of the reserve officer > corps.[13] There were no official barriers to military service for Jews, > but in later years this tolerance eroded to some extent, as important > figures such as Conrad von Hotzendorf and Franz Ferdinand sometimes > expressed anti-Jewish sentiments. Franz Ferdinand was also accused (by > Conrad) of discriminating against Protestant officers.[14]Austro-Hungarian > Army in July 1914 > 30,000 Officers > 410,000 NCOs and troops > 87,000 horses (estimate) > 1,200 artillery pieces > > Official designations were as follows: > regiments of the joint army were designated Imperial and Royal (German: > "kaiserlich und k?niglich" (k.u.k.); Hungarian: "Cs?sz?ri ?s Kir?lyi") > Austrian Landwehr regiments were Imperial/Royal (German: > "kaiserlich/k?niglich" (k.k.) (which stands for *Imperial Austrian / Royal > Bohemian (kaiserlich ?sterreichisch/k?niglich b?hmisch));* Hungarian: > "cs?sz?ri/kir?lyi") > Hungarian Honv?d regiments, or "Honv?ds?g", were called Royal Hungarian > (German: "k?niglich ungarisch"; Hungarian: "Magyar Kir?lyi") > The soldiers generally had to serve 2 years, after they finished their > apprenticeships or educaton. > They were "mustered" between the ages 18 and 22. > > For general reading I have copied this for you from the Internet, but you > may read it in more detail at the link below, where you can also have a > look at the individual uniforms : > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Hungarian Army\ > Submitted by Aida > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 10:33:29 -0600 > From: Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in > 1700's in Bohemia? > To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <3D61278C-D8FB-4748-9CBF-0AF6AB7C67C0@yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Aida, Here is a "for instance" from my Swedish family. My gr-grandfather Jon Paulson came from a family of itinerant farm laborers who moved > from place to place to find work. The boys were "farmed out" at a very early age to work. They lived in a Backstugen which nothing was more than a dugout in the side of a hill. > Anyway, Jon meet Anna Katrina, then a widow, he was 20 she was 31. Anna gave birth to a son and continued to live with her parents. > Jon traveled to a neighboring parish some 50 miles away to find work. He fathered another child four years later and then Jon and Anna Katrina were married and they lived > together near where Jon was working. They had two more children before the family emigrated in 1893. Jon had preceded the family, coming to America by four years where he > worked as a surveyour on the Great Northern RR. > Bob > On Feb 14, 2012, at 12:48 AM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > > Bob, I have never heard of this, so I really cannot say. Most of the > > Egerland families supported one another when the chips were down. But it > > could have been different during industrial development areas in the late > > 19th century. I understood that the question was posed for ancestors in > > the 18th century when agricultural life was still very dominant. Having a > > concubine would have been possible only for someone who could afford > > "keeping a woman", like the nobility, statesmen, people who had jobs away > > from their homebase. And that does not include farmers. Bohemia was > > nothing like "England" who traded worldwide being an island. Bohemia was a > > landlocked area where most of the families were stout Catholics and the > > financial status among them was not as crass between rich and poor as it > > was in England for many centuries. The poor on the continent were not > > quite as destitute as in Britain, because the Monarchy made the Nobility > > responsible for the welfare of the people in their regions. There was a > > poor house in every village to care for widows with families or infirm > > people; and the nobility would either provide financial help or offer > > employment in the country villages and the same happened in the cities, > > where poor people were supported by the Burghers and often even the > > guilds. Do not mix up the stories you hear from Ireland, England, or any > > other places, because it was a very regulated life in the Austrian > > Hungarian Monarchy. Even new settlers to a new area were provided with a > > newly built farm house and acreage, they never had to live in sod houses or > > fend for themselves. If there was a lack of some kind due to tragedy in a > > family, then the churches would step in to provide the necessities on a > > community caring level. Our people were not as kind to traveling folks, > > but natives in villages and cities were taken care of by their relatives, > > neighbors, poor houses, and church alms. > > However, it is realistic enough that it would not preclude that some > > babies were born on the "other side of the blanket". Children, in general, > > were needed and very welcome. The larger the family, the stronger the > > entire family, because they had "enough hands" to work. Children made a > > family "wealthy" because they started to contribute to the farm income very > > early and were taught raising small animals and gathering of wild > > growing food in nature (mushrooms, nettles, rosehips, wild fruit, roots as > > well as vegetables and fruit from their gardens) which was the basis for > > their daily meals. The children took care of this from 6 - 14 years of > > age, and then they generally left the family thereafter when they > > apprenticed for a job. Marriages for men at age 17 and women 16 were quite > > common, because in "taking over the family farm" many young men could avoid > > military service. > > Aida > > > > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > >> Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not marry until the man could > >> prove that he was finically able to support a family? > >> I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he community did not want > >> to support a family that was not able to provide for itself > >> > >> On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > >> > >>> Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian Army (and please don't forget > >> that > >>> that this Army existed for 400 years) all soldiers of lower ranks were > >>> not allowed to marry while in service. It was different in officers > >> ranks, > >>> but then the father of the bride had to pay a dowry of 20,000 Kronen as > >>> "Kaution" (security). I do not know the exact legal ramification on > >> that, > >>> so you must read up on it. I just know the story from our family, where > >> my > >>> aunt's arguments with her father were fierce, because she desired to > >>> receive that money from him for her marriage. Since my grandfather had 6 > >>> daughters, he most certainly could not single out one of them with this > >>> privilege. > >>> And yes, these entries you found in the registers are indeed these > >>> "early born" children who were declared legitimate as soon as the father > >>> came back from his tour of duty. The Church was understanding in this, > >>> because the couple was not able to marry while the groom was serving in > >> the > >>> Military. > >>> Aida > >>> > >>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Aide, > >>>> > >>>> Wondering about something you wrote below about Military Service, > >> Marriage > >>>> and Births. > >>>> > >>>> Sometimes I notice in church registers that a woman gives birth to a > >> child > >>>> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later date, it appears a Father's name > >>>> was added and illigitamet is crossed out and ligitamete added. > >>>> > >>>> Would this be likely one of those times when the Father was away with > >> the > >>>> military? Would adding a Fathers name in such a situation happen fairly > >>>> regularly? > >>>> > >>>> Speaking of Military Service. In peace time ( was there any? ), what was > >>>> the requirement of males to military service? Did they ALL have to > >> service > >>>> or was it voluntary? > >>>> > >>>> Thanks again, > >>>> > >>>> Elaine in Maine > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > >>>>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM > >>>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >>>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in > >> 1700's > >>>> in Bohemia? > >>>>> > >>>>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood that our very Catholic families who > >>>> were > >>>>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl were polygamous. What you are > >>>>> encountering is this. The Utschig were a HUGE family. Every family > >> had > >>>>> many children, They became each others sponsors at birth and so the > >> same > >>>>> first names come up again and again. If the births were only 3 or 7 > >>>> months > >>>>> apart, then you must look into the names of the father and mother, and > >>>> even > >>>>> there you may encounter the same names. So, since no house nunbers are > >>>>> given, you have to diagram your family members with their birth dates. > >>>>> Eventually you will find out into which families they could they fit > >> it. > >>>>> This is just your guideline. > >>>>> I had a similar situation where three brothers had children and > >>>>> all of them used the same first names over and over again. And then, > >> the > >>>>> children of the NEXT generation were given the exactly same names by > >> their > >>>>> related sponsors, which of course were family member, brothers sisters, > >>>>> cousins, and still - to this day - that whole clan is somewhat of a > >>>> puzzle > >>>>> to what family they belong; but it was not unusual that a woman gave > >>>> birth > >>>>> to 19 children.... one every year until menopause.. That does not mean > >>>> that > >>>>> they all survived, but they are, or course, listed as births in the > >>>> church > >>>>> register. So go then to the death register and see who was listed > >> there > >>>>> and there they also give the names of the parents. It will help you to > >>>>> sort out the families. If you compare birth register to death register > >>>> you > >>>>> will find more clarity. > >>>>> Go back as far as you can and write down the names of the > >> couples > >>>>> (meaning families of siblings). Then, write down the names of their > >>>>> children and next to it the birth date and if you find a death entry as > >>>>> well...... > >>>>> And then see, how they fit. > >>>>> And this is the way you can sort it out. > >>>>> Good luck. > >>>>> Birth of 18 children is absolutely possible, we have found that many > >>>> times > >>>>> and from the same couple. Thre are also multiple marriages, but forget > >>>>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were far to religious. Pre marital > >> birth > >>>> of > >>>>> children are possible, because the men were not able to marry while in > >>>>> military service and could not wait that long. They usually married > >>>>> immediately when they were released. > >>>>> As far as children born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my > >>>>> mother's side gave birth to 13 children in the late 1800, of which 7 > >> lived > >>>>> through their childhood diseases which killed many of their siblings. > >> The > >>>>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, Diphteria, whooping cough, "Pocken" > >>>>> which is smallpox and disentery. > >>>>> They solely relied on herbal medicines then. > >>>>> Aida > >>>>> > >>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> > >> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife > >> (polygamy) > >>>> in > >>>>>> the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines? (I understand > >> in > >>>>>> Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of men, so > >>>> many > >>>>>> having been killed in wars.) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as being > >> Anna > >>>>>> Catharina. I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina > >>>> Pichl/B?chl), > >>>>>> but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate > >>>> marriages. > >>>>>> Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who born him > >>>> many > >>>>>> children. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina before > >> the > >>>>>> 1728 marriage I found. This is important to me because my 3rd great > >>>>>> grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed like > >> in > >>>>>> the later records. No haus numbers, no names of parents. Two > >> children > >>>>>> born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart. The rest of the > >>>> children > >>>>>> are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna Catharina. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first Anna > >>>>>> Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned above who > >>>> were > >>>>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the other in > >>>> 1739 > >>>>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between). So my theory > >> on > >>>> the > >>>>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold up. Too many children born in between > >>>> 1729 > >>>>>> and 1739. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I hope this makes sense. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Mary > >>>>>> > >>>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >>>> without > >>>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>>>> > >>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscr > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 08:50:33 -0800 > From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in > 1700's in Bohemia? > To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <CAMswtwpWVhMk60e9vvfqpS03E40DTd28mC1h1UgYp1EvzbKK3w@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Bob, you cannot apply Swedish family life to that of the continent. As I > have stated before, the maritime countries had a very different culture > than the landlocked European Interior. > Also the Northern countries were mostly Protestant and with it quite a > different culture developed versus the stout Catholic or Greek Orthodox > church influence on the mainland which was less flexible. > Aida > > On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 8:33 AM, Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Aida, Here is a "for instance" from my Swedish family. My gr-grandfather > > Jon Paulson came from a family of itinerant farm laborers who moved > > from place to place to find work. The boys were "farmed out" at a very > > early age to work. They lived in a Backstugen which nothing was more than > > a dugout in the side of a hill. > > Anyway, Jon meet Anna Katrina, then a widow, he was 20 she was 31. Anna > > gave birth to a son and continued to live with her parents. > > Jon traveled to a neighboring parish some 50 miles away to find work. He > > fathered another child four years later and then Jon and Anna Katrina were > > married and they lived > > together near where Jon was working. They had two more children before the > > family emigrated in 1893. Jon had preceded the family, coming to America > > by four years where he > > worked as a surveyour on the Great Northern RR. > > Bob > > On Feb 14, 2012, at 12:48 AM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > > > > Bob, I have never heard of this, so I really cannot say. Most of the > > > Egerland families supported one another when the chips were down. But > > it > > > could have been different during industrial development areas in the late > > > 19th century. I understood that the question was posed for ancestors in > > > the 18th century when agricultural life was still very dominant. Having > > a > > > concubine would have been possible only for someone who could afford > > > "keeping a woman", like the nobility, statesmen, people who had jobs away > > > from their homebase. And that does not include farmers. Bohemia was > > > nothing like "England" who traded worldwide being an island. Bohemia > > was a > > > landlocked area where most of the families were stout Catholics and the > > > financial status among them was not as crass between rich and poor as it > > > was in England for many centuries. The poor on the continent were not > > > quite as destitute as in Britain, because the Monarchy made the Nobility > > > responsible for the welfare of the people in their regions. There was a > > > poor house in every village to care for widows with families or infirm > > > people; and the nobility would either provide financial help or offer > > > employment in the country villages and the same happened in the cities, > > > where poor people were supported by the Burghers and often even the > > > guilds. Do not mix up the stories you hear from Ireland, England, or > > any > > > other places, because it was a very regulated life in the Austrian > > > Hungarian Monarchy. Even new settlers to a new area were provided with a > > > newly built farm house and acreage, they never had to live in sod houses > > or > > > fend for themselves. If there was a lack of some kind due to tragedy in > > a > > > family, then the churches would step in to provide the necessities on a > > > community caring level. Our people were not as kind to traveling folks, > > > but natives in villages and cities were taken care of by their relatives, > > > neighbors, poor houses, and church alms. > > > However, it is realistic enough that it would not preclude that some > > > babies were born on the "other side of the blanket". Children, in > > general, > > > were needed and very welcome. The larger the family, the stronger the > > > entire family, because they had "enough hands" to work. Children made > > a > > > family "wealthy" because they started to contribute to the farm income > > very > > > early and were taught raising small animals and gathering of wild > > > growing food in nature (mushrooms, nettles, rosehips, wild fruit, roots > > as > > > well as vegetables and fruit from their gardens) which was the basis for > > > their daily meals. The children took care of this from 6 - 14 years of > > > age, and then they generally left the family thereafter when they > > > apprenticed for a job. Marriages for men at age 17 and women 16 were > > quite > > > common, because in "taking over the family farm" many young men could > > avoid > > > military service. > > > Aida > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@yahoo.com> > > wrote: > > > > > >> Aida, Was it also true that a couple could not marry until the man > > could > > >> prove that he was finically able to support a family? > > >> I understand that this was the case in Sweden. T he community did not > > want > > >> to support a family that was not able to provide for itself > > >> > > >> On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > >> > > >>> Yes, exactly! In the Austrian Hungarian Army (and please don't forget > > >> that > > >>> that this Army existed for 400 years) all soldiers of lower ranks were > > >>> not allowed to marry while in service. It was different in officers > > >> ranks, > > >>> but then the father of the bride had to pay a dowry of 20,000 Kronen as > > >>> "Kaution" (security). I do not know the exact legal ramification on > > >> that, > > >>> so you must read up on it. I just know the story from our family, > > where > > >> my > > >>> aunt's arguments with her father were fierce, because she desired to > > >>> receive that money from him for her marriage. Since my grandfather > > had 6 > > >>> daughters, he most certainly could not single out one of them with this > > >>> privilege. > > >>> And yes, these entries you found in the registers are indeed these > > >>> "early born" children who were declared legitimate as soon as the > > father > > >>> came back from his tour of duty. The Church was understanding in > > this, > > >>> because the couple was not able to marry while the groom was serving in > > >> the > > >>> Military. > > >>> Aida > > >>> > > >>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Aide, > > >>>> > > >>>> Wondering about something you wrote below about Military Service, > > >> Marriage > > >>>> and Births. > > >>>> > > >>>> Sometimes I notice in church registers that a woman gives birth to a > > >> child > > >>>> who is noted as illigitamet. At a later date, it appears a Father's > > name > > >>>> was added and illigitamet is crossed out and ligitamete added. > > >>>> > > >>>> Would this be likely one of those times when the Father was away with > > >> the > > >>>> military? Would adding a Fathers name in such a situation happen > > fairly > > >>>> regularly? > > >>>> > > >>>> Speaking of Military Service. In peace time ( was there any? ), what > > was > > >>>> the requirement of males to military service? Did they ALL have to > > >> service > > >>>> or was it voluntary? > > >>>> > > >>>> Thanks again, > > >>>> > > >>>> Elaine in Maine > > >>>> > > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>>> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > > >>>>> Sent: Feb 13, 2012 5:39 PM > > >>>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Multiple marriages or concubines in > > >> 1700's > > >>>> in Bohemia? > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Mary, there is hardly any likehood that our very Catholic families > > who > > >>>> were > > >>>>> living so close to the Abbey of Tepl were polygamous. What you are > > >>>>> encountering is this. The Utschig were a HUGE family. Every family > > >> had > > >>>>> many children, They became each others sponsors at birth and so the > > >> same > > >>>>> first names come up again and again. If the births were only 3 or 7 > > >>>> months > > >>>>> apart, then you must look into the names of the father and mother, > > and > > >>>> even > > >>>>> there you may encounter the same names. So, since no house nunbers > > are > > >>>>> given, you have to diagram your family members with their birth > > dates. > > >>>>> Eventually you will find out into which families they could they fit > > >> it. > > >>>>> This is just your guideline. > > >>>>> I had a similar situation where three brothers had children and > > >>>>> all of them used the same first names over and over again. And > > then, > > >> the > > >>>>> children of the NEXT generation were given the exactly same names by > > >> their > > >>>>> related sponsors, which of course were family member, brothers > > sisters, > > >>>>> cousins, and still - to this day - that whole clan is somewhat of a > > >>>> puzzle > > >>>>> to what family they belong; but it was not unusual that a woman gave > > >>>> birth > > >>>>> to 19 children.... one every year until menopause.. That does not > > mean > > >>>> that > > >>>>> they all survived, but they are, or course, listed as births in the > > >>>> church > > >>>>> register. So go then to the death register and see who was listed > > >> there > > >>>>> and there they also give the names of the parents. It will help you > > to > > >>>>> sort out the families. If you compare birth register to death > > register > > >>>> you > > >>>>> will find more clarity. > > >>>>> Go back as far as you can and write down the names of the > > >> couples > > >>>>> (meaning families of siblings). Then, write down the names of their > > >>>>> children and next to it the birth date and if you find a death entry > > as > > >>>>> well...... > > >>>>> And then see, how they fit. > > >>>>> And this is the way you can sort it out. > > >>>>> Good luck. > > >>>>> Birth of 18 children is absolutely possible, we have found that many > > >>>> times > > >>>>> and from the same couple. Thre are also multiple marriages, but > > forget > > >>>>> polygamy in the Egerland, they were far to religious. Pre marital > > >> birth > > >>>> of > > >>>>> children are possible, because the men were not able to marry while > > in > > >>>>> military service and could not wait that long. They usually married > > >>>>> immediately when they were released. > > >>>>> As far as children born to a family goes, my own grandmother on my > > >>>>> mother's side gave birth to 13 children in the late 1800, of which 7 > > >> lived > > >>>>> through their childhood diseases which killed many of their siblings. > > >> The > > >>>>> causes were mostly Scarlett fever, Diphteria, whooping cough, > > "Pocken" > > >>>>> which is smallpox and disentery. > > >>>>> They solely relied on herbal medicines then. > > >>>>> Aida > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mary Read <maryutschig@yahoo.com> > > >> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> I was wondering if there were men who had more than one wife > > >> (polygamy) > > >>>> in > > >>>>>> the early to middle 1700's in Bohemia, or concubines? (I understand > > >> in > > >>>>>> Germany there was polygamy at one time because of the lack of men, > > so > > >>>> many > > >>>>>> having been killed in wars.) > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I have 18 children born to an Anton Utschig, with the wife as being > > >> Anna > > >>>>>> Catharina. I found one marriage (Oct 1728 to Anna Catharina > > >>>> Pichl/B?chl), > > >>>>>> but cannot find the other marriage, if there were two separate > > >>>> marriages. > > >>>>>> Or he had a woman on the side, also named Anna Catharina who born > > him > > >>>> many > > >>>>>> children. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> There were three children born to an Anton and Anna Catharina before > > >> the > > >>>>>> 1728 marriage I found. This is important to me because my 3rd great > > >>>>>> grandfather belonged to one of the Anton's and Anna Catharina's. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> These early records do not tell you much--no occupations listed like > > >> in > > >>>>>> the later records. No haus numbers, no names of parents. Two > > >> children > > >>>>>> born 3 months apart, another two, 7 months apart. The rest of the > > >>>> children > > >>>>>> are spaced out so that they could belong to either Anna Catharina. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I have also looked to see if there was a death for the first Anna > > >>>>>> Catharina but could not find one. Yet the children mentioned above > > who > > >>>> were > > >>>>>> 3 and 7 months apart were in 1729 (Aug and November) and the other > > in > > >>>> 1739 > > >>>>>> (Apr and November) (with lots of children in between). So my theory > > >> on > > >>>> the > > >>>>>> death of an Anna doesn't hold up. Too many children born in between > > >>>> 1729 > > >>>>>> and 1739. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I hope this makes sense. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Mary > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > >>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >>>>>> ------------------------------- > > >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >>>>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >>>> without > > >>>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >>>>> ------------------------------- > > >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> without > > >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >>>> ------------------------------- > > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> without > > >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >>>> > > >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >>> ------------------------------- > > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > >> > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >> ------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscr > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN list administrator, send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN mailing list, send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 38 > **********************************************

Cheryl, it would be very instructive for you to search the German Bohemian Rootsweb archive where a lot of information has been posted over the years. You can scan the subjects and pick out what is of interest to you and you will be able to learn a lot from our discussions on this list. I am also attaching a few computer links for you. Link to German Bohemian Archives: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Available record archives on line: https://beta.familysearch.org/s/collection/list#page=1&region=EUROPE For background help on your ancestors the beststarting source with all of Ellis Island Registers is here: http://www.stevemorse.org/ Starting a genealogical search: http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/SUD/kb/index.html http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/SUD/orte/ort-index.html and click on the alphabetical listing of the old German names of the villages and see what is available. A good way to start searching is by using these tools: http://www.familysearch.org/ - name search www.geneanet.com - name search Ellis Island Register and Castle Garden Register at the NARA website (where you also find ships lists) In some cases they list the place of origin. Family search: http://www.familysearch.org/ Name search: www.geneanet.com I hope that this will keep you busy for a while and we are wishing you success. Aida ------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 12:51 PM, cheryl owens <ctkral@yahoo.com> wrote: > I'd also be interested in seeing the site: Boehmerwald Air Balloon Ride. > I'm new to this list, and finding it fascinating! I need to know where > people are finding all this information. Are there web sites, or were they > able to visit libraries/archives in various cities? > thanks, > cheryl > > > ________________________________ > From: "german-bohemian-request@rootsweb.com" < > german-bohemian-request@rootsweb.com> > To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 10:20 AM > Subject: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 47 > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Boehmerwald Air Balloon Ride (Mark Prokosch) > 2. Res: Re: Illigitimate Births & Millitary & Nuns > (Christiane Gromann) > 3. Re: Boehmerwald Air Balloon Ride (Aida Kraus) > 4. Re: Res: Re: Illigitimate Births & Millitary & Nuns (Aida Kraus) > 5. Re: Boehmerwald Air Balloon Ride (Carroll Warschak) > 6. Re: Boehmerwald Air Balloon Ride (Aida Kraus) > 7. Re: Boehmerwald Air Balloon Ride (HELEN M WHITE) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 05:41:12 -0600 > From: "Mark Prokosch" <mgprokosch@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Boehmerwald Air Balloon Ride > To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <009801ccf6d7$0a2a7d20$1e7f7760$@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I sent you one... > I think it is it. > > Mark Prokosch > > > -----Original Message----- > From: german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Aida Kraus > Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 12:21 AM > To: GBHS > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Boehmerwald Air Balloon Ride > > Last August I received a PPS presentation of an air balloon ride over the > old German villages in the Boehmerwald. It was simply gorgeous and > forwarded to a lot of people. Afterwards I had a computer crash and lost a > few files and among them was this wonderful presentation. If you have > saved > it and it is still in your files, could you please forward the link as > attachment to my private Email: birchbaylady@gmail.com because it cannot > be > attached to this rootsweb mail. > I will have then on file again! Thank you! > Aida > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 09:48:49 -0300 > From: "Christiane Gromann" <gromann@uol.com.br> > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Res: Re: Illigitimate Births & Millitary & > Nuns > To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <DD0E81BF4D8F4F5B8ADD964CB721C784@DELL> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > How interesting all this subject!!!!! I am learning a lot! Thanks Aida > always and also the others!!!!! > > I'm trying to find out what happened with my ggggrandfather, Franz Gromann > and his family: > According to his his marriage register, he was born about 1775 (I still > don't know where). > He got married in Nov, 21th 1803, at age of 28 Hranice 19, to Johanna > (Anna) Machinek, at this register he was listed at Karl Schroeder Companie > (Id found as IR7). It seems he was allowed to married, and dismissed from > army? His enlisted age was 18 or 20 years old? > > The house they were listed was the Machinek's family and this could mean > that the new couple had lived there? Anna's father was a "syndicus" > (lawyer?) > Trying to find more, Id found a illegitimate birth of Antonia Otilia in > July, 2nd 1797, in Hranice 19, mother Anna Machinek. She was not > legitimated before Anna and Franz's marriage, but at her burial record in > January, 6th of 1856, Hranice 150, she was listed as "tochter Franz > Gromann, corporate in Weisskirchen". (what is corporate?) > Franz and Anna also had another daughter, Anna Catharina, born in Sep, > 21th 1804, in Hranice 19 (in this record the name of the father is Joseph > Gromann - note that I had not found any Joseph Gromann in the records, and > there is always the possibility that the priest had made a mistake. > Anna Catharina was buried in March, 19th 1807, at age of 3, Wurmfieber, in > Hranice 158 and there was a cross before her father name, Franz. (I think > this could indicate that he was death by this time, and the interesting is > that I did not find his burial register, neither any reference of it in the > others family registers). > > Well, after that I had found another illegitimate birth, of my > gggranfather, Johann Michael Gromann, in Sept, 30th 1808, Hranice 169, > mother Anna Machinek was listed as mother and in the father's name was > wrote - it seems faded like someone had tried to erase it - the name of > Anna's father, Joseph Machinek (who had died in 1800). In all the others > registers I had found about Johann Michael, he was listed as son of Franz > Gromann, with no reference he was dead. > In the other registers I had found Franz Gromann listed as: 1803: Karl > Schrolder Leib Compaq kompanie; 1846: Feldwebel von Belegard Regiment; 1856 > and 1864: Feldwebel bei k.k. Regim. Baron Schroeder in Nikolsburg; 1867: > pr?por?cn?ka c.k. Pluku Barona Schroedera v Mikulov?. > > Trying to go futher, I had found the book "Gedenklatter aus der > Kriegsgeschichte der K.K. Oesterreichischen Armee von A.Graf Thuerheim, I. > Band, 1880. At page 28 the history of the IR7. The FML Carl Schroeder was > the "Inhaber" of this regiment from 1783 to 1808. I don't know German, so I > use a translator, but I could not find this regiment in the Hranice region, > neither any reference to Nikolsburg (Mikulov). Id already had written to > Kriegs archives in Wien, but don't have any answer. I live in S?o Paulo, > Brazil and Family centers here could not help me either, so I cant find any > military record, that could help to clarify it. > I am trying to pick up the puzzle pieces.... and understand them. > Thanks for any help. > Chris > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 06:48:23 -0800 > From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Boehmerwald Air Balloon Ride > To: mgprokosch@gmail.com, german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <CAMswtwqb73PiCgUXjZJDCcAYTUj0o+5Mfrgs-BLDNzUPhOZXeQ@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Yes, that was it..... and I thank you so very very much. > Aida > > On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 3:41 AM, Mark Prokosch <mgprokosch@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > I sent you one... > > I think it is it. > > > > Mark Prokosch > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Aida Kraus > > Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 12:21 AM > > To: GBHS > > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Boehmerwald Air Balloon Ride > > > > Last August I received a PPS presentation of an air balloon ride over the > > old German villages in the Boehmerwald. It was simply gorgeous and > > forwarded to a lot of people. Afterwards I had a computer crash and > lost a > > few files and among them was this wonderful presentation. If you have > > saved > > it and it is still in your files, could you please forward the link as > > attachment to my private Email: birchbaylady@gmail.com because it cannot > > be > > attached to this rootsweb mail. > > I will have then on file again! Thank you! > > Aida > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 07:17:46 -0800 > From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Res: Re: Illigitimate Births & > Millitary & Nuns > To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <CAMswtwqSP80CW2P0WG2riF+7UHLZJsPue9FWtH54HKVpE26m6Q@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Chris you are doing very very well, indeed! > The IR7 is a Infantry Regiment Number 7 lead by Baron Schroeder of > Nikolsburg (Mikulove). Regiments were deployed and you will have to wait > for the information from Vienna where they were they were garrisoned. For > not reading German and having used a translator, I must congratulate you! > This is excellent research on your part! I am proud of you! > Syndicus translates to counsel, legal counsellor or lawyer, and you > translated that correctly. And you also found that the child was legalized > once the father came back from service, so it was conceived and born while > the father was in the military. > As to this sentence: " tochter Franz Gromann, corporate in > Weisskirchen". (what is corporate?)" Go back to the original text and > look at the word corporate. I presume you misread this and could be an le > instead of te, like corporale - a corporal in the army? Also it is quite > possible that the priest made a mistake in recording the name, but you have > to read the entire sentence to understand to what he refers by recording > this name. Here I cannot help you, because I would have to see the entry. > Could he be recorded as sponsor to the child's birth, because then it > could be another Gromann relative. If there is a cross next to the name of > a person in a register that means that he is deceased. As "Feldwebel" he > was already in the beginning ranks of officers, the next rank up being a > Lieutenant. Therefore, with a lawyer and officer you are researching a > family in the Burgher class of Nikolsburg and pay attention to the house > numbers listed on these records, because if you find a plat of Nikolsburg, > you can actually find the house number there. Once you know the location, > you can use Google maps to zoom into the present location and look of the > place as it looks now. > Good luck to you! > It is very exciting to share your success. Thank you for your report. > Aida > > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 4:48 AM, Christiane Gromann <gromann@uol.com.br > >wrote: > > > How interesting all this subject!!!!! I am learning a lot! Thanks Aida > > always and also the others!!!!! > > > > I'm trying to find out what happened with my ggggrandfather, Franz > Gromann > > and his family: > > According to his his marriage register, he was born about 1775 (I still > > don't know where). > > He got married in Nov, 21th 1803, at age of 28 Hranice 19, to Johanna > > (Anna) Machinek, at this register he was listed at Karl Schroeder > Companie > > (Id found as IR7). It seems he was allowed to married, and dismissed from > > army? His enlisted age was 18 or 20 years old? > > > > The house they were listed was the Machinek's family and this could mean > > that the new couple had lived there? Anna's father was a "syndicus" > > (lawyer?) > > Trying to find more, Id found a illegitimate birth of Antonia Otilia in > > July, 2nd 1797, in Hranice 19, mother Anna Machinek. She was not > > legitimated before Anna and Franz's marriage, but at her burial record in > > January, 6th of 1856, Hranice 150, she was listed as "tochter Franz > > Gromann, corporate in Weisskirchen". (what is corporate?) > > Franz and Anna also had another daughter, Anna Catharina, born in Sep, > > 21th 1804, in Hranice 19 (in this record the name of the father is Joseph > > Gromann - note that I had not found any Joseph Gromann in the records, > and > > there is always the possibility that the priest had made a mistake. > > Anna Catharina was buried in March, 19th 1807, at age of 3, Wurmfieber, > in > > Hranice 158 and there was a cross before her father name, Franz. (I think > > this could indicate that he was death by this time, and the interesting > is > > that I did not find his burial register, neither any reference of it in > the > > others family registers). > > > > Well, after that I had found another illegitimate birth, of my > > gggranfather, Johann Michael Gromann, in Sept, 30th 1808, Hranice 169, > > mother Anna Machinek was listed as mother and in the father's name was > > wrote - it seems faded like someone had tried to erase it - the name of > > Anna's father, Joseph Machinek (who had died in 1800). In all the others > > registers I had found about Johann Michael, he was listed as son of Franz > > Gromann, with no reference he was dead. > > In the other registers I had found Franz Gromann listed as: 1803: Karl > > Schrolder Leib Compaq kompanie; 1846: Feldwebel von Belegard Regiment; > 1856 > > and 1864: Feldwebel bei k.k. Regim. Baron Schroeder in Nikolsburg; 1867: > > pr?por?cn?ka c.k. Pluku Barona Schroedera v Mikulov?. > > > > Trying to go futher, I had found the book "Gedenklatter aus der > > Kriegsgeschichte der K.K. Oesterreichischen Armee von A.Graf Thuerheim, > I. > > Band, 1880. At page 28 the history of the IR7. The FML Carl Schroeder was > > the "Inhaber" of this regiment from 1783 to 1808. I don't know German, > so I > > use a translator, but I could not find this regiment in the Hranice > region, > > neither any reference to Nikolsburg (Mikulov). Id already had written to > > Kriegs archives in Wien, but don't have any answer. I live in S?o Paulo, > > Brazil and Family centers here could not help me either, so I cant find > any > > military record, that could help to clarify it. > > I am trying to pick up the puzzle pieces.... and understand them. > > Thanks for any help. > > Chris > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 10:26:12 -0500 (EST) > From: Carroll Warschak <cwarschak@aol.com> > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Boehmerwald Air Balloon Ride > To: mgprokosch@gmail.com, german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <8CEC50D9A68F9FA-23F0-625E@webmail-d183.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Mark, > > I read with interest your reply to the request from Aida. > I was not aware of this PBS presentation. > Would you send the link to me at cwarschak@aol.com? > Thank you. > > Carroll Warschak > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Prokosch <mgprokosch@gmail.com> > To: german-bohemian <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wed, Feb 29, 2012 5:46 am > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Boehmerwald Air Balloon Ride > > > I sent you one... > I think it is it. > > Mark Prokosch > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 07:39:54 -0800 > From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Boehmerwald Air Balloon Ride > To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <CAMswtwq03hN_L2EP7a6MT8aRj02NcqkSiNRF1Xt2rj6DSxq8Qg@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Mark, I will send it to Carroll because I got a few more requests for it. > Aida > > On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 7:26 AM, Carroll Warschak <cwarschak@aol.com> > wrote: > > > Mark, > > > > I read with interest your reply to the request from Aida. > > I was not aware of this PBS presentation. > > Would you send the link to me at cwarschak@aol.com? > > Thank you. > > > > Carroll Warschak > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark Prokosch <mgprokosch@gmail.com> > > To: german-bohemian <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wed, Feb 29, 2012 5:46 am > > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Boehmerwald Air Balloon Ride > > > > > > I sent you one... > > I think it is it. > > > > Mark Prokosch > > > > > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 09:20:10 -0700 > From: HELEN M WHITE <hwhitemc8309@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Boehmerwald Air Balloon Ride > To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <CALTeD8t35By__gHT1=46ZPbiijpzT2D53VoDu3cm2nq0HfA+Ow@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > To me also,.....PLEASE? > .....hwhitemc8309@gmail.com<.....PLEASE?.....hwhitemc8309@gmail.com> > > > > > On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 8:26 AM, Carroll Warschak <cwarschak@aol.com> > wrote: > > > Mark, > > > > I read with interest your reply to the request from Aida. > > I was not aware of this PBS presentation. > > Would you send the link to me at cwarschak@aol.com? > > Thank you. > > > > Carroll Warschak > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark Prokosch <mgprokosch@gmail.com> > > To: german-bohemian <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wed, Feb 29, 2012 5:46 am > > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Boehmerwald Air Balloon Ride > > > > > > I sent you one... > > I think it is it. > > > > Mark Prokosch > > > > > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > -- > *hwhitemc* > > "Live simply; Care deeply; Love generously;" and most importantly, "Speak > kindly." ...by Sam @ MTPR > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN list administrator, send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN mailing list, send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 47 > ********************************************** > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Dear Aida, Thanks so so much for everything! It means a lot to me, you cant imagine how much!!!! Actually I am studying  older posts from you (to learn about everyday life), I had learn that is always good to come back in some posts, websites, etc... I have always find something new. Ive been waiting for about one year from Krieg Archives. So I am using this time to learn and research, maybe if I have luck to find more about my ancestors. I have to thanks also to internet. lol.... It made all this possible, even meeting you! I had wrote here something wrong (I have to apologize about my English). All the records Id found was from the village of Hranice (Mährisch WeiÃkirchen), but reading it gave the ideia of looking in Nikolsburg registers, I dont know if is possible to find something there. Another thing that I am sure I wasnt clear: Antonia Ottilia was not legitimated on her birth register, I think she had never married (it was normal?), at her burial record (1856) was written her father`s name but, ``if`` the cross in the other burial record of the 2nd daughter, Anna Catharina in 1807 is right, who declared the  burial register of Antonia Otillia wasnt her father, and makes impossible that my gggfather Johann Gromann is really the son of Franz Gromann bc he was born about 1 year and 4 months after the burial record of 1807. I will look again the records, and I will let you know. As much I learn, more questions I have... Thanks always, Chris _________________________________________________________________ Em 29/02/2012 12:17, Aida Kraus < birchbaylady@gmail.com > escreveu: Chris you are doing very very well, indeed! The IR7 is a Infantry Regiment Number 7 lead by Baron Schroeder of Nikolsburg (Mikulove). Regiments were deployed and you will have to wait for the information from Vienna where they were they were garrisoned. For not reading German and having used a translator, I must congratulate you! This is excellent research on your part! I am proud of you! Syndicus translates to counsel, legal counsellor or lawyer, and you translated that correctly. And you also found that the child was legalized once the father came back from service, so it was conceived and born while the father was in the military. As to this sentence: " tochter Franz Gromann, corporate in Weisskirchen". (what is corporate?)" Go back to the original text and look at the word corporate. I presume you misread thi s and could be an le instead of te, like corporale - a corporal in the army? Also it is quite possible that the priest made a mistake in recording the name, but you have to read the entire sentence to understand to what he refers by recording this name. Here I cannot help you, because I would have to see the entry. Could he be recorded as sponsor to the child's birth, because then it could be another Gromann relative. If there is a cross next to the name of a person in a register that means that he is deceased. As "Feldwebel" he was already in the beginning ranks of officers, the next rank up being a Lieutenant. Therefore, with a lawyer and officer you are researching a family in the Burgher class of Nikolsburg and pay attention to the house numbers listed on these records, because if you find a plat of Nikolsburg, you can actually find the house number there. Once you know the location, you can use Google maps to zoom into the present location and look of the place as it looks now. Good luck to you! It is very exciting to share your success. Thank you for your report. Aida On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 4:48 AM, Christiane Gromann wrote: > How interesting all this subject!!!!! I am learning a lot! Thanks Aida > always and also the others!!!!! > > I'm trying to find out what happened with my ggggrandfather, Franz Gromann< br />> and his family: > According to his his marriage register, he was born about 1775 (I still > don't know where). > He got married in Nov, 21th 1803, at age of 28 Hranice 19, to Johanna > (Anna) Machinek, at this register he was listed at Karl Schroeder Companie > (Id found as IR7). It seems he was allowed to married, and dismissed from > army? His enlisted age was 18 or 20 years old? > > The house they were listed was the Machinek's family and this could mean > that the new couple had lived there? Anna's father was a "syndicus" > (lawyer?) > Trying to find more, Id found a illegitimate birth of Antonia Otilia in > July, 2nd 1797, in Hranice 19, mother Anna Machinek. She was not > legitimated before Anna and Franz's marriage, but at her burial record in > January, 6th of 1856, Hranice 150, she was listed as "tochter Franz > Gromann, corporate in Weis skirchen". (what is corporate?) > Franz and Anna also had another daughter, Anna Catharina, born in Sep, > 21th 1804, in Hranice 19 (in this record the name of the father is Joseph > Gromann - note that I had not found any Joseph Gromann in the records, and > there is always the possibility that the priest had made a mistake. > Anna Catharina was buried in March, 19th 1807, at age of 3, Wurmfieber, in > Hranice 158 and there was a cross before her father name, Franz. (I think > this could indicate that he was death by this time, and the interesting is > that I did not find his burial register, neither any reference of it in the > others family registers). > > Well, after that I had found another illegitimate birth, of my > gggranfather, Johann Michael Gromann, in Sept, 30th 1808, Hranice 169, > mother Anna Machinek was listed as mother and in the father's name was > ; wrote - it seems faded like someone had tried to erase it - the name of > Anna's father, Joseph Machinek (who had died in 1800). In all the others > registers I had found about Johann Michael, he was listed as son of Franz > Gromann, with no reference he was dead. > In the other registers I had found Franz Gromann listed as: 1803: Karl > Schrolder Leib Compaq kompanie; 1846: Feldwebel von Belegard Regiment; 1856 > and 1864: Feldwebel bei k.k. Regim. Baron Schroeder in Nikolsburg; 1867: > práporécnÃka c.k. Pluku Barona Schroedera v Mikulové. > > Trying to go futher, I had found the book "Gedenklatter aus der > Kriegsgeschichte der K.K. Oesterreichischen Armee von A.Graf Thuerheim, I. > Band, 1880. At page 28 the history of the IR7. The FML Carl Schroeder was > the "Inhaber" of this regiment from 1783 to 1808. I don't know German, so I > use a translator, but I could n ot find this regiment in the Hranice region, > neither any reference to Nikolsburg (Mikulov). Id already had written to > Kriegs archives in Wien, but don't have any answer. I live in São Paulo, > Brazil and Family centers here could not help me either, so I cant find any > military record, that could help to clarify it. > I am trying to pick up the puzzle pieces.... and understand them. > Thanks for any help. > Chris > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site [1]http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site [2]http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message References 1. http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ 2. http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/

Thank you very much Aida for the great information! I read most of the e-mails and I'm grateful for all the information and help you give. I think the family research center in South Saint Paul will have the Grundbuchblatter Diverse. I will see if he is listed there. It is close to me. I will look more in the death records in the Pilsen archive online for the mother whose daughter was raised by her sister and the father of the daughter who married her sister. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aida Kraus" <birchbaylady@gmail.com> To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 6:34 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Illigitimate Births & Millitary & Nuns > Denise: > To answer your first question "Could the father have been in the > military?" > I am answering with a very positive yes, because the children were > declared > legitimate at their wedding. He was unable to marry while in the military > and married immediately after he had completed his tour of duty, probably > as a carpenter in the k&k Austrian military. You might be able to find > him > on a microfilm entitled "Grundbuchblaetter diverse" which is available in > alphabetical order of surnames. There are several rolls. > Often, the widower married the sister of his wife because the > children were better taken care of by a blood relative, like an aunt. I > doubt very much that she became a nun, but more likely that she expected a > difficult birth and went to the house of the midwife. Also Gynaecologists > were already in place at larger villages or in towns, so there was medical > help when difficult births were expected. I would suggest that you look > at > the name of the village where the child was born. It might be in the same > parish church, but they have sections in the register for various villages > served by the same parish church.. If you find that the birth village has > another name of the village where they resided, you might want look in the > death entries of that village. They are often listed a bit further back > in > the church register, or they are chronologically listed in the register, > but then you must pay attention to the text, because they state the place > of birth and death. This then would give you a much better clue as to > what happened. You have to go through the entire register, not just what > you see in the beginning, to realize how the priests organized their > information. it is not uniform, and each priest has a different way of > recording. Some very accurate, some very sloppy. > Also, check on the child after a mother died giving birth, because > quite often after the baby becomes also a casualty due to lack of proper > nourishment. Although mothers often shared their milk with other babies > and fed them as long as possible. Some of these babies were 4 years old > before they were weaned, because during breast feeding the mothers rarely > conceived and they would go as long as their bodies produced milk. After > all, that was the only birth control they knew at that time. > Aida > > On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 3:35 PM, denice juneski > <denicejusa@usfamily.net>wrote: > >> >> I have found a baptism record for a relative of my cousin's in the Pilsen >> archive online. She was born in 1884 in the village of Althutten, >> Wassersuppen parish (Nemanice) and it was stated that she was >> illigitimate >> and was legitimate by marriage of her father and mother in 1876. It >> doesn't state that he was in the military. It states that he was a >> zimmerman (a carpenter). It also states that they lived apart, 1974. >> Could the father have been in the military? >> >> Also on her sister's birth record, who was born before her, it has the >> same father but a different mother. That mother was a sister to his >> wife. >> I can't find what happened to the mother of her older sister and my >> cousin >> doesn't know. Could she have became a nun and/or went someplace else. I >> didn't find her in the death records. It also states that the older >> sister >> became legitimate at the marriage of her father in 1876. >> >> My cousin said that a relative hinted that those two sisters did not get >> along well growing up but there was no word of that spoken in her house. >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >