/ When Pete's voice was strong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1tqtvxG8O4&feature=related / ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net> To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 7:50 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Expulsion discussions > Where have all the flowers gone: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXqTf8DU6a0&feature=related > > > _____ > > Lavrentiy > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Laurence Krupnak > To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 7:45 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Expulsion discussions > > > Jack wrote in part: > > > As the song by Pete Seeger goes, when Will they ever learn? > > ********** > > Mankind will never learn. > > One objective of studying history is to teach us to not repeat > horrible things. Studying history demonstrates that mankind never > changes his ways. > > _______ > > Lavrentiy > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Where have all the flowers gone: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXqTf8DU6a0&feature=related _____ Lavrentiy ----- Original Message ----- From: Laurence Krupnak To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 7:45 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Expulsion discussions Jack wrote in part: As the song by Pete Seeger goes, when Will they ever learn? ********** Mankind will never learn. One objective of studying history is to teach us to not repeat horrible things. Studying history demonstrates that mankind never changes his ways. _______ Lavrentiy

Jack wrote in part: As the song by Pete Seeger goes, when Will they ever learn? ********** Mankind will never learn. One objective of studying history is to teach us to not repeat horrible things. Studying history demonstrates that mankind never changes his ways. _______ Lavrentiy

I'm actually a bit more optimistic than that, Lavrentiy. I agree with, or want to agree with, Teilhard de Chardin, who believed that human evolution continues under God's guidance. I think we are less brutal and more held to account than people were in the Middle Ages. For me it is just that progress is excruciatingly slow. Jack Sent from my Credo cell phone -------- Original message -------- Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Expulsion discussions From: Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com CC: Jack wrote in part: As the song by Pete Seeger goes, when Will they ever learn? ********** Mankind will never learn.  One objective of studying history is to teach us to not repeat horrible things.  Studying history demonstrates that mankind never changes his ways. _______ Lavrentiy German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thus was the vengence taken on those that were not really the cause of the German atrocities during World War II. It was absulute (sic) mayheihem (sic) no one in control and what is believe to be innocent people took the wrath for those that were guilty. This was not something I knew much about and thought others would be interested in knowing the facts and the volumn of hatred for Germans after Germany was defeated. As normal in every war it would seem its innocent citizens that suffer the most on both sides of the fence. In this case after the war had finished.

Splitting and Projection Before, During and After World War Two -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By Mary Katherine Armstrong "In my practice as a psychotherapist, I frequently observe that the clients who first appear the gentlest and most forgiving, often end up having the greatest anger. Their anger burns so hot they have never felt safe even to feel it. While insisting they are not angry, they are very afraid of other people's anger." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mary Katherine Armstrong is a social work psychotherapist in private practice in Toronto, Canada. She specializes in treating adults and children suffering from childhood trauma. She teaches and presents her work in Canada, the United States and Europe. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.primal-page.com/spliting.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net> To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 7:19 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Expulsion discussions > / > > Anti-German sentiment > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-German_sentiment > > ********* > Dealing in Hate: The development of anti-German propaganda > > http://www.ihr.org/books/connors/dealinginhate.html > > *********** > > > The story of mass deportations of Germans from the East is a terrible > one. Alfred de Zayas, an expert on refugees, trained in history at > Tuebingen and Goettingen, and in law at Harvard, gathered the > expellees' first-hand reports in his book (DeZayas, Alfred, A Terrible > Revenge: The ethnic cleansing of the East European Germans, 1944-50. > New York: St. Martin's Press ). These Germans were civilians who had > settled in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary, mainly as farmers. Many > had been there for several generations. Once the Germans were > defeated, deportation orders were posted everywhere. Germans had to > leave their homes within twenty four hours, taking with them only ten > kilograms of personal belongings and leaving their households > untouched. > Men, women and children set out on the road often with no > transportation organized for them. In fact, there was frequently no > plan at all for handling these refugees. For most, no food or shelter > was provided. They were simply ordered to get out. And so, fifteen > million Germans were displaced in what amounted to ethnic cleansing. > As they made their way back to a shrunken and defeated Germany, these > helpless people provided a perfect target for the wrath of Poles, > Czechs and Hungarians who had suffered under the Germans during the > war years. Women were brutally raped, often until they died of the > injuries or were shot by their rapists. Children starved en masse. No > one intervened on behalf of those people caught up in the horrific > ethnic cleansing of Germans living in the eastern territories. > The unimaginable suffering of the expellees in those years was barely > known outside of Germany. Very few foreigners paid any attention or > made any effort to establish privately funded assistance. After all, > those who were suffering were "bad guys". > > > Source: primal-page.com > > > > Thus was the vengence taken on those that were not really the cause of > the German atrocities during World War II. It was absulute mayheihem > no one in control and what is believe to be innocent people took the > wrath for those that were guilty. > > > This was not something I knew much about and thought others would be > interested in knowing the facts and the volumn of hatred for Germans > after Germany was defeated. As normal in every war it would seem its > innocent citizens that suffer the most on both sides of the fence. In > this case after the war had finished. > > > > > Continue reading at NowPublic.com: > > Hatred of germans after World War II - Ethnic cleansing | NowPublic > News Coverage > http://www.nowpublic.com/world/hatred-germans-after-world-war-ii-ethnic-cleansing#ixzz20drZYdkW > > > http://www.nowpublic.com/world/hatred-germans-after-world-war-ii-ethnic-cleansing > > ________ > > > Lavrentiy > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net> > To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 5:35 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Expulsion discussions > > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net> >> To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 10:23 AM >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Expulsion discussions >> >> >>> / >>> >>> Also, find reports, observations, etc. which were written during >>> the time of the expulsions. Writings of the contemporary period >>> often >>> distort perspectives, called political correcting. >>> >>> The passions of the 1945-1950 ran deep. >>> >>> ______ >>> >>> Lavrentiy >> >> >> / >> >> Contemporary authors who write about the expulsions (e.g., why >> were >> the expelled treated badly, etc.) often overlook the fact that the >> German people were almost universally hated right after the war. The >> German nation and German people inflicted great pain on others. >> >> _______ >> >> Lavrentiy >> >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

/ Anti-German sentiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-German_sentiment ********* Dealing in Hate: The development of anti-German propaganda http://www.ihr.org/books/connors/dealinginhate.html *********** The story of mass deportations of Germans from the East is a terrible one. Alfred de Zayas, an expert on refugees, trained in history at Tuebingen and Goettingen, and in law at Harvard, gathered the expellees' first-hand reports in his book (DeZayas, Alfred, A Terrible Revenge: The ethnic cleansing of the East European Germans, 1944-50. New York: St. Martin's Press ). These Germans were civilians who had settled in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary, mainly as farmers. Many had been there for several generations. Once the Germans were defeated, deportation orders were posted everywhere. Germans had to leave their homes within twenty four hours, taking with them only ten kilograms of personal belongings and leaving their households untouched. Men, women and children set out on the road often with no transportation organized for them. In fact, there was frequently no plan at all for handling these refugees. For most, no food or shelter was provided. They were simply ordered to get out. And so, fifteen million Germans were displaced in what amounted to ethnic cleansing. As they made their way back to a shrunken and defeated Germany, these helpless people provided a perfect target for the wrath of Poles, Czechs and Hungarians who had suffered under the Germans during the war years. Women were brutally raped, often until they died of the injuries or were shot by their rapists. Children starved en masse. No one intervened on behalf of those people caught up in the horrific ethnic cleansing of Germans living in the eastern territories. The unimaginable suffering of the expellees in those years was barely known outside of Germany. Very few foreigners paid any attention or made any effort to establish privately funded assistance. After all, those who were suffering were "bad guys". Source: primal-page.com Thus was the vengence taken on those that were not really the cause of the German atrocities during World War II. It was absulute mayheihem no one in control and what is believe to be innocent people took the wrath for those that were guilty. This was not something I knew much about and thought others would be interested in knowing the facts and the volumn of hatred for Germans after Germany was defeated. As normal in every war it would seem its innocent citizens that suffer the most on both sides of the fence. In this case after the war had finished. Continue reading at NowPublic.com: Hatred of germans after World War II - Ethnic cleansing | NowPublic News Coverage http://www.nowpublic.com/world/hatred-germans-after-world-war-ii-ethnic-cleansing#ixzz20drZYdkW http://www.nowpublic.com/world/hatred-germans-after-world-war-ii-ethnic-cleansing ________ Lavrentiy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net> To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 5:35 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Expulsion discussions > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net> > To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 10:23 AM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Expulsion discussions > > >> / >> >> Also, find reports, observations, etc. which were written during >> the time of the expulsions. Writings of the contemporary period >> often >> distort perspectives, called political correcting. >> >> The passions of the 1945-1950 ran deep. >> >> ______ >> >> Lavrentiy > > > / > > Contemporary authors who write about the expulsions (e.g., why > were > the expelled treated badly, etc.) often overlook the fact that the > German people were almost universally hated right after the war. The > German nation and German people inflicted great pain on others. > > _______ > > Lavrentiy > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In my opinion, a major contribution of my social psychologist colleagues was to show how much we divide ourselves into in-group and out-group (us and them) as a way of protecting ourselves from harm or our fears of harm and then how we disparage "them" in order to justify or rationalize our behavior toward them. It is easier to mistreated or kill a kraut or a Jap or a commie than a father and son and husband. That phenomenon occurred on all sides during and after WWII. What makes that dynamic particularly sad to me is that our erstwhile enemies (e.g., the English during much of the late 18th century and the Germans during much of the first half of the 19th century) are now among our very best friends - for me both personally and nationally. As the song by Pete Seeger goes, when Will they ever learn? Jack Sent from my Credo cell phone -------- Original message -------- Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Expulsion discussions From: Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com CC: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net> To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 10:23 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Expulsion discussions > / > >    Also, find reports, observations, etc. which were written during > the time of the expulsions.  Writings of the contemporary period often > distort perspectives, called political correcting. > >     The passions of the 1945-1950 ran deep. > > ______ > > Lavrentiy /      Contemporary authors who write about the expulsions (e.g., why were the expelled treated badly, etc.) often overlook the fact that the German people were almost universally hated right after the war.  The German nation and German people inflicted great pain on others. _______ Lavrentiy German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dr. Schaffer, the process would be much faster, if the school systems would have standardized parameters, at least as far as social studies and the teachings of history are concerned. If a democratic process is to be achieved for equal human rights on a large scale, it must begin in schools and I mean within all of our school systems. But you are very correct, that requires enlightenment and time. Aida On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 5:41 PM, Dr. Jack B. Schaffer < jack_b_schaffer@yahoo.com> wrote: > I'm actually a bit more optimistic than that, Lavrentiy. I agree with, or > want to agree with, Teilhard de Chardin, who believed that human evolution > continues under God's guidance. I think we are less brutal and more held to > account than people were in the Middle Ages. For me it is just that > progress is excruciatingly slow. > > Jack > > > Sent from my Credo cell phone > > -------- Original message -------- > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Expulsion discussions > From: Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net> > To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > CC: > > Jack wrote in part: > > > As the song by Pete Seeger goes, when Will they ever learn? > > ********** > > Mankind will never learn. > > One objective of studying history is to teach us to not repeat horrible > things. Studying history demonstrates that mankind never changes his ways. > > _______ > > Lavrentiy > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I forgot the word "economically" because - in retrospect - the repatriation of Volksgermans into Germany gave them an enormous economical boost and all these families are doing far better than they could have done in the lesser developed Eastern countries. After so many years of economic stagnation in the Eastern block, we see that those who have succeeded in the West are now using their acquired wealth in rebuilding the old countries. This time it is done in a far more equitable way than before. There is not one large Company name that is not represented in the East, from MacDonald and Coca Cola, to Daimler, Linde, Volkswagen, BMW, as well as the "heavy industry." Polish people and their medical and social service training is a most valuable work force throughout Western Europe. Hungarians make up a large part in the technical work force of the Computer Industry. Old people, like I am, who live in Germany either in independent or assisted living homes are cared for by Polish nurses, Czech doctors and they have far better service for the elderly than we have here. European people seem to heave learned to "care for one another" after this horrible time. But not all is "heavenly" in the old country. Now there are modern mosques built next to the old Gothic domes of the middle ages, and the difference in cultures is nearly insurmountable, where children of Islamic parents are allowed to take a kris to school. Children being what they are and judgement gone out the window with emotion, there are sometimes very bloody fights and homeschooling is not a option.. THAT is something that has to be worked out somehow..... Aida On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 5:21 PM, Aida Kraus <draytonharbor@gmail.com> wrote: > To that I have to say what my Czech friends told me: > "By not throwing out our Germans, we would not have cut off our legs to > the Western World. We had to stagnate 50 years under Communism for which > the majority voted in 1947." > and my Volksdeutsche friends told me: > "This was the best that could have happened to us!" > Aida > > > On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 5:11 PM, Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net>wrote: > >> / >> >> What would have happened if the Volksdeutsche were not deported >> (expelled) to Germany? >> >> ______ >> >> Lavrentiy >> >> >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >

----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net> To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 10:23 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Expulsion discussions > / > > Also, find reports, observations, etc. which were written during > the time of the expulsions. Writings of the contemporary period often > distort perspectives, called political correcting. > > The passions of the 1945-1950 ran deep. > > ______ > > Lavrentiy / Contemporary authors who write about the expulsions (e.g., why were the expelled treated badly, etc.) often overlook the fact that the German people were almost universally hated right after the war. The German nation and German people inflicted great pain on others. _______ Lavrentiy

There are a few good books that give some background on the Sudeten area and the Germans and Czechs who lived there. The background helps to understand the whole nationalist movement that fomented in the 1800s. Madeleine Albright just published a memoir/history, *Prague* *Winter, A Personal Story of Remembrance and War, 1937 - 1948.* Other books include: Eagle Glassheim, *Noble Nationalists, The Transformation of the Bohemian Aristocracy*, 2005 Pieter M. Judson, *Guardians of the Nation, Activists on the Language Frontiers of Imperial Austria*, 2006 Tara Zahra, *Kidnapped Souls, National Indifference and the Battle for Children in the Bohemian Lands 1900 - 1948*, 2008 Jeremy King, *Budweisers into Czechs and Germans A Local History of Bohemian Politics 1848 - 1948*, 2002 Alfred-Maurice de Zayas, *The German Expellees Victims in War and Peace*, 1986 (translated 1993) My great-grandparents came from the disputed area--Struhadlo and Koryta near Klatovy--but they emigrated in 1875 before the nationalism really heated up. They were the "Zwischen", and considered themselves Bohemian. My great-grandfather spoke German and Czech (and my mother told me he was German--the name was Neydl), I think my great-grandmother only spoke Czech. When they first came to Massachusetts they identified themselves as Bohemian, but I noticed after Czechoslovakia became a country, they identified themselves on the census as Austrian. I am interested in any other sources on the history of this area. They would have to be in English. I'm only now learning German, and it's a slow process. Thanks, Marilyn

To that I have to say what my Czech friends told me: "By not throwing out our Germans, we would not have cut off our legs to the Western World. We had to stagnate 50 years under Communism for which the majority voted in 1947." and my Volksdeutsche friends told me: "This was the best that could have happened to us!" Aida On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 5:11 PM, Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net>wrote: > / > > What would have happened if the Volksdeutsche were not deported > (expelled) to Germany? > > ______ > > Lavrentiy > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Just came back home and I find reading your postings very interesting, because the Germanophobia seemed to have preceded Anti Semitism. And the following sentenceI found was a revelation, because we were lead to believe that the "final solution idea" was a German invention. But obviously it was not? Because it is stated among others that "In 1941, the book *Germany Must Perish!<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_Must_Perish%21> * advocated the sterilization of all Germans and the territorial dismemberment of Germany." So looking at the date and all the other Germanophobic expressions voiced long before then, it was obviously not even an invention of the Nazi Regime. .It seems that during hundreds of years such opinionated and politically motivated people made not only their own hell on this earth, but also for everyone else. I bet that the average citizen, regardless where he lived, England, Russia, Germany, France and Austria and everywhere around there wanted not more and no less but the same as his compatriot in another country. Which essentially is to make a living, raise their kids, and be left in peace. So one seems to ask then "and who is benefiting from such hate mongering? The manufacturers of weapons?" Were "we the people of the world" never ever able to state OUR side of values? In my humble and very unimportant opinion, the upgraded development of good diplomacy would be a gem in the crown of humanity. Aida On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 4:50 PM, Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net>wrote: > Where have all the flowers gone: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXqTf8DU6a0&feature=related > > > _____ > > Lavrentiy > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Laurence Krupnak > To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 7:45 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Expulsion discussions > > > Jack wrote in part: > > > As the song by Pete Seeger goes, when Will they ever learn? > > ********** > > Mankind will never learn. > > One objective of studying history is to teach us to not repeat horrible > things. Studying history demonstrates that mankind never changes his ways. > > _______ > > Lavrentiy > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Also, find reports, observations, etc. which were written during the time of the expulsions. Writings of the contemporary period often distort perspectives, called political correcting. The passions of the 1945-1950 ran deep. ______ Lavrentiy

/ Also, find reports, observations, etc. which were written during the time of the expulsions. Writings of the contemporary period often distort perspectives, called political correcting. The passions of the 1945-1950 ran deep. ______ Lavrentiy ----- Original Message ----- From: Heinz Schoner To: Laurence Krupnak ; german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 8:38 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Expulsion discussions Hi all, I agree with Lavrentiy, A person always needs to hear both sides of a chat. As a son of an expellee i would like that. My only problem the chat I hear is from the persons directly effected from being expelled and I never hear from the persons who did the expelling (because they don't want to admit it or fess up to it I guess). So on one side i have first hand experiences and on the other side all I can find is people (not the people involved) saying they believe this happened or just spreading hearsay. So very true, we need to always listen to both perspectives and look at all research. Then you can make an informed decision. Heinz ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, July 12, 2012 9:25:37 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Expulsion discussions Hello Aida, The "chat" does contain valuable information from all perspectives and many references. People should not learn about the expulsions from only the German expulsion organizations. ________ Lavrentiy ----- Original Message ----- From: Aida Kraus To: Laurence Krupnak ; german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Expulsion discussions To me this seems like a lot of "chat" but very little historical evidence, I think the You tube presentations are more factual. Aida On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net> wrote: / Want to contribute?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II ______ Lavrentiy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net> To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 12:00 PM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Expulsion discussions > Example expulsion discussions: > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AExpulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II/Archive_10 > > > > _______ > > Lavrentiy > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net> > To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 10:32 AM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue > 109 > > >> Hi Brandt, >> >> There are many books, papers, etc. on the subject. It is critical >> to read information from all perspectives: expellee and expellee >> organizations, Czech point-of-view, etc. >> >> Anybody have recommendations about references which have a >> "neutral" bias? >> >> ________ >> >> Lavrentiy >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Brandt Gibson" <ironhide781@hotmail.com> >> To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 7:10 PM >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue >> 109 >> >> >>> >>> I only learned of the expulsion recently through this mailing list. >>> Are there any books on the expulsion? My ancestors lived in the >>> Rosshaupt/Strobl/Zirk area, so anything about that area would be of >>> interest to me, before or after the expulsion. Thanks, Brandt >>> > From: german-bohemian-request@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 109 >>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >>>> Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 10:49:19 -0600 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>> >>>> Today's Topics: >>>> >>>> 1. Re: For Aida - re: expulsion (Laurence Krupnak) >>>> 2. Malinak from Halenkov (dcuillard@aol.com) >>>> 3. Re: For Aida - re: expulsion (fslocum@accelplus.net) >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 11:49:46 -0400 >>>> From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net> >>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: expulsion >>>> To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> >>>> Message-ID: <820E72FB59024BADB2A2712499002536@user45c476a8b6> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >>>> >>>> Marg and Frank, >>>> >>>> I too do that (dig into details), but we are a very, very, >>>> very, >>>> very, very, etc. small number of people who do that. >>>> >>>> ________ >>>> >>>> Lavrentiy >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Marg McEuen >>>> To: Laurence Krupnak ; german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >>>> Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 12:41 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: expulsion >>>> >>>> >>>> I also have to disagree, Laurence and agree with Frank and >>>> Aida. I, too, have had someone who went to my paternal >>>> Gt-grandmother, Theresia Kahabka's, house site at Domaslav 18 (near >>>> Lestkov) and sent back pictures. I am unable to travel so far >>>> because of health reasons, so this was very much appreciated. I, >>>> too, try to find out what happened to siblings, aunts, uncles, etc. >>>> for as many ancestors as I can and the history that was going on >>>> around them. >>>> >>>> None of my immediate ancestors were in the Expulsion, but I >>>> do try to read as much on it as I can, as I would like to find out >>>> what happened to some of their relatives who may have stayed. My >>>> paternal grandmother, Elizabeth Kunzel, died at age 92 when I was >>>> just out of high school, in 1958, so I never was able to ask her >>>> about why she immigrated to Napa Valley, CA in 1886. I would very >>>> much like to know what happened to one of her uncles and one aunt, >>>> as >>>> her parents, siblings and her other uncles also came to the USA by >>>> 1887. >>>> >>>> I really appreciate all the info and links to sources and >>>> your personal recollections, Aida. That helps me fill in some of >>>> the >>>> history in Bohemia after my direct ancestors left. Thank you so >>>> much >>>> for all you do in helping fill in some historical gaps. Marg >>>> McEuen >>>> >>>> --- On Sun, 7/8/12, fslocum@accelplus.net >>>> <fslocum@accelplus.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> From: fslocum@accelplus.net <fslocum@accelplus.net> >>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: expulsion >>>> To: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net>, >>>> german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >>>> Date: Sunday, July 8, 2012, 9:35 AM >>>> >>>> >>>> lawrence, I disagree. I like the stories of the family >>>> activities, and >>>> like following a stream upstream, attempt to find the >>>> source. When it >>>> crosses the ocean, and language barriers, it all becomes >>>> more difficult. >>>> >>>> I know my great grandfathers origin and two generations >>>> prior. I also know >>>> there were siblings, one of whom visited the USA and >>>> witnessed his will. >>>> But what happened to them from 1870 on? >>>> >>>> A dear person in Prague travelled to the small village >>>> near >>>> Karlsbad and >>>> took pictures of the home plot, Poschitz #4, long gone >>>> except for flowers, >>>> grasses and a well spot. >>>> >>>> In my 70's now, it is still my ambition to travel there >>>> an >>>> see it for >>>> myself. I will pick up two small stones, one for me and >>>> the >>>> other for his >>>> grave marker. >>>> >>>> Frank Heidl Slocum >>>> Great grandson of Franz Josef Heidl >>>> >>>> > / >>>> > Not many people are interested in serious historical >>>> and genealogical >>>> > research. Many people have a passing interest, but >>>> they >>>> don't get >>>> > close to scholarly or detailed information. They just >>>> want to punch a >>>> > name in a computer database and get their genealogy >>>> back >>>> to Adam and >>>> > Eve. >>>> > >>>> > ______ >>>> > >>>> > Laurence >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > From: Aida Kraus >>>> > To: Laurence Krupnak ; german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >>>> > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 11:04 AM >>>> > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: >>>> expulsion >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > As far as genealogy is concerned, I must disagree, >>>> because ancestors >>>> > can only be found in historical records. Expulsion >>>> lists, court >>>> > documents, witness reports, property records are all >>>> part >>>> of this and >>>> > present valuable information material for genealogical >>>> research. If >>>> > you do not know history, how can you possibly find >>>> your >>>> roots? The >>>> > truth of history will eventually come out, no matter >>>> how >>>> long it takes. >>>> > I will give you an example. I had a friend who simply >>>> could not find a >>>> > link to a family member. The person she was looking >>>> for >>>> "did not >>>> > exist". Not in her family anyway. But she was >>>> tenacious. >>>> In the end she >>>> > found out why he did not exist in any records of her >>>> family. ...... >>>> > because he was judged and hanged for a horse thief. >>>> > So, I guess, we have to get our head around >>>> these >>>> "unpleasant >>>> > surprises" in genealogy of which the aftermath of the >>>> second world >>>> > war is just such a factor... and this NEVER seems to be >>>> a >>>> one sided >>>> > deal, my friends! >>>> > It hits home, when a transgression highly >>>> censured is returned by >>>> > just the same, and sometimes even worse crimes. It >>>> makes >>>> us look >>>> > at ourselves of what we are at our worst while we know >>>> that we >>>> > could be our best. This feeling is called shame. >>>> Genocide is >>>> > shame on all levels of humanity. It is a pity that we >>>> will find >>>> > it in our roots. And then it is best to KNOW YOUR >>>> HISTORY >>>> > Aida >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 7:11 AM, Laurence Krupnak >>>> <LKrupnak@verizon.net> >>>> > wrote: >>>> > >>>> > / >>>> > >>>> > Hello Aida, >>>> > >>>> > Knowledge and data about the "afterwords" >>>> existed, but a small >>>> > number of people read the literature. Not many people >>>> are >>>> > interested in the past. >>>> > >>>> > _______ >>>> > >>>> > Laurence >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > From: Aida Kraus >>>> > >>>> > To: Laurence Krupnak ; >>>> german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >>>> > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 9:52 AM >>>> > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: >>>> expulsion >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Oh yes, dear Lavrentiy, THAT is widely published >>>> in >>>> the Holocaust >>>> > papers and many other documentation from the Nuremberg >>>> trials in a >>>> > neverending supply of stories for the media....... but >>>> what came >>>> > "afterwards" that is something that did not get into >>>> any >>>> press and >>>> > was put under lock and key at Bonn for 50 years. It is >>>> just now >>>> > surfacing, as it should, because this is also a part >>>> of >>>> history. >>>> > Obviously the retaliation was equally fierce, if not >>>> more so. >>>> > Aida >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 5:49 AM, Laurence Krupnak >>>> > <LKrupnak@verizon.net> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > / >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Do data exist for the number of Germans >>>> who >>>> resided in the >>>> > places >>>> > that you described who either joined or were >>>> conscripted in Nazi >>>> > military and they themselves committed >>>> attrocities? Any memoirs >>>> > or >>>> > letters of admission or regret on what they or >>>> Germany did? >>>> > >>>> > _____ >>>> > >>>> > Lavrentiy >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > From: "Aida Kraus" <draytonharbor@gmail.com> >>>> > To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> >>>> > Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2012 2:52 PM >>>> > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: >>>> expulsion >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > > This is a witness report of people who have >>>> gone through the >>>> > cruelty >>>> > > of >>>> > > expulsion from their homeland. It is a >>>> document called >>>> > "Whitebook" >>>> > > and >>>> > > contains legal witness records kept in the >>>> files at Bonn by the >>>> > > German >>>> > > Government for 50 years under lock and key. >>>> However, they should >>>> > have >>>> > > published it as part of truthful reporting of >>>> history after the >>>> > > homeless >>>> > > had declared their Charter. You will find >>>> that >>>> charter on the >>>> > link >>>> > > listed >>>> > > below. There were 14 to 16 Million of us >>>> Germans who have lost >>>> > their >>>> > > homeland after WW2. The numbers of expelled >>>> persons and their >>>> > deaths >>>> > > have >>>> > > never been fully established. They were >>>> living >>>> for centuries (in >>>> > some >>>> > > cases >>>> > > as natives) in countries which is now Poland, >>>> Lithuania, >>>> > Estonia, >>>> > > Latvia, >>>> > > Ukraine, the different states of the former >>>> Yugoslavia, >>>> > Czechoslovakia >>>> > > and >>>> > > others, and their deaths were caused by mass >>>> transports, mass >>>> > > executions, >>>> > > rapes and sadistic tortures between >>>> 1945-1947, >>>> up to two years >>>> > after >>>> > > the >>>> > > war. Mass graves of these martyred people are >>>> found from time to >>>> > time >>>> > > even >>>> > > now at construction excavations but creates >>>> just a minimum of >>>> > > publicity, >>>> > > because it was so horrendous that even the >>>> victims would rather >>>> > > forget. >>>> > > Read the Charta at this page and notice the >>>> date of the >>>> > Charter.... >>>> > > just >>>> > > 5 years after the war when wound of our >>>> losses >>>> were still fresh: >>>> > > >>>> http://www.bund-der-vertriebenen.de/derbdv/charta-en.php3 >>>> > > Aida >>>> > > >>>> > > On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 11:16 AM, >>>> <miscsearch@aol.com> wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > >> Aida, >>>> > >> >>>> > >> I found this while researching family >>>> members >>>> from Freiwaldau. >>>> > What >>>> > >> is >>>> > >> your opinion of this. >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/whitebook/desg00.html >>>> > >> >>>> > >> I've seen postings in the past regarding >>>> propaganda and would >>>> > like to >>>> > >> know what's what. Thanks. >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Cathy >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>>> > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>> > >> ------------------------------- >>>> > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an >>>> email to >>>> > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with >>>> the >>>> word >>>> > 'unsubscribe' >>>> > >> without >>>> > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of >>>> the >>>> message >>>> > >> >>>> > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>>> > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an >>>> email to >>>> > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the >>>> word 'unsubscribe' >>>> > > without the quotes in the subject and the >>>> body >>>> of the message >>>> > >>>> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>>> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>> > ------------------------------- >>>> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an >>>> email to >>>> > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word >>>> 'unsubscribe' >>>> > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >>>> message >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>>> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>> > ------------------------------- >>>> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email >>>> to >>>> > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word >>>> 'unsubscribe' >>>> > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >>>> message >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>> > ------------------------------- >>>> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word >>>> 'unsubscribe' without >>>> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 2 >>>> Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 11:55:55 -0400 (EDT) >>>> From: dcuillard@aol.com >>>> Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Malinak from Halenkov >>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >>>> Message-ID: <8CF2C027534F63C-8B4-EB1@webmail-d051.sysops.aol.com> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Seeking help in locating Christening records from 1835-1845 for the >>>> Village of Halenkov in Czech Republic. >>>> Ancestor Johannes "John" Malinak immigrated to Texas in 1872 and he >>>> and his wife listed their birthplaces as Halenkov. >>>> Thanks, >>>> Donna >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 3 >>>> Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 12:49:06 -0400 (EDT) >>>> From: fslocum@accelplus.net >>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: expulsion >>>> To: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net>, >>>> german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >>>> Message-ID: >>>> <49414.97.97.3.169.1341852546.squirrel@secure.accelplus.net> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 >>>> >>>> Lavrentiy, I consider this curious effort the worlds largest jigsaw >>>> puzzle. It is in my basic curiosity make up. Sometimes I find a >>>> piece and >>>> know it fits someplace but must find the adjoining piece first. >>>> This >>>> puzzle is a 360 degree puzzle. >>>> >>>> Frank >>>> >>>> >>>> > Marg and Frank, >>>> > >>>> > I too do that (dig into details), but we are a very, very, >>>> > very, very, >>>> > very, etc. small number of people who do that. >>>> > >>>> > ________ >>>> > >>>> > Lavrentiy >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > From: Marg McEuen >>>> > To: Laurence Krupnak ; german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >>>> > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 12:41 PM >>>> > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: expulsion >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > I also have to disagree, Laurence and agree with Frank >>>> > and >>>> > Aida. >>>> > I, too, have had someone who went to my paternal Gt-grandmother, >>>> > Theresia Kahabka's, house site at Domaslav 18 (near Lestkov) and >>>> > sent back pictures. I am unable to travel so far because of >>>> > health reasons, so this was very much appreciated. I, too, try >>>> > to >>>> > find out what happened to siblings, aunts, uncles, etc. for as >>>> > many ancestors as I can and the history that was going on around >>>> > them. >>>> > >>>> > None of my immediate ancestors were in the Expulsion, but >>>> > I >>>> > do try >>>> > to read as much on it as I can, as I would like to find out what >>>> > happened to some of their relatives who may have stayed. My >>>> > paternal grandmother, Elizabeth Kunzel, died at age 92 when I was >>>> > just out of high school, in 1958, so I never was able to ask her >>>> > about why she immigrated to Napa Valley, CA in 1886. I would >>>> > very >>>> > much like to know what happened to one of her uncles and one >>>> > aunt, >>>> > as her parents, siblings and her other uncles also came to the >>>> > USA by 1887. >>>> > >>>> > I really appreciate all the info and links to sources and >>>> > your >>>> > personal recollections, Aida. That helps me fill in some of the >>>> > history in Bohemia after my direct ancestors left. Thank you so >>>> > much for all you do in helping fill in some historical gaps. >>>> > Marg >>>> > McEuen >>>> > >>>> > --- On Sun, 7/8/12, fslocum@accelplus.net >>>> > <fslocum@accelplus.net> >>>> > wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > From: fslocum@accelplus.net <fslocum@accelplus.net> >>>> > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: expulsion >>>> > To: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net>, >>>> > german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >>>> > Date: Sunday, July 8, 2012, 9:35 AM >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > lawrence, I disagree. I like the stories of the family >>>> > activities, and >>>> > like following a stream upstream, attempt to find the >>>> > source. >>>> > When it >>>> > crosses the ocean, and language barriers, it all >>>> > becomes >>>> > more >>>> > difficult. >>>> > >>>> > I know my great grandfathers origin and two generations >>>> > prior. I >>>> > also know >>>> > there were siblings, one of whom visited the USA and >>>> > witnessed >>>> > his will. >>>> > But what happened to them from 1870 on? >>>> > >>>> > A dear person in Prague travelled to the small village >>>> > near >>>> > Karlsbad and >>>> > took pictures of the home plot, Poschitz #4, long gone >>>> > except >>>> > for flowers, >>>> > grasses and a well spot. >>>> > >>>> > In my 70's now, it is still my ambition to travel there >>>> > an see >>>> > it for >>>> > myself. I will pick up two small stones, one for me and >>>> > the >>>> > other for his >>>> > grave marker. >>>> > >>>> > Frank Heidl Slocum >>>> > Great grandson of Franz Josef Heidl >>>> > >>>> > > / >>>> > > Not many people are interested in serious >>>> > historical >>>> > and >>>> > genealogical >>>> > > research. Many people have a passing interest, but >>>> > they don't >>>> > get >>>> > > close to scholarly or detailed information. They >>>> > just >>>> > want to >>>> > punch a >>>> > > name in a computer database and get their genealogy >>>> > back to >>>> > Adam and >>>> > > Eve. >>>> > > >>>> > > ______ >>>> > > >>>> > > Laurence >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > > From: Aida Kraus >>>> > > To: Laurence Krupnak ; german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >>>> > > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 11:04 AM >>>> > > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: >>>> > expulsion >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > As far as genealogy is concerned, I must disagree, >>>> > because >>>> > ancestors >>>> > > can only be found in historical records. Expulsion >>>> > lists, >>>> > court >>>> > > documents, witness reports, property records are all >>>> > part of >>>> > this and >>>> > > present valuable information material for >>>> > genealogical >>>> > research. If >>>> > > you do not know history, how can you possibly find >>>> > your >>>> > roots? The >>>> > > truth of history will eventually come out, no matter >>>> > how long >>>> > it takes. >>>> > > I will give you an example. I had a friend who >>>> > simply >>>> > could >>>> > not find a >>>> > > link to a family member. The person she was looking >>>> > for "did >>>> > not >>>> > > exist". Not in her family anyway. But she was >>>> > tenacious. In >>>> > the end she >>>> > > found out why he did not exist in any records of her >>>> > family. >>>> > ...... >>>> > > because he was judged and hanged for a horse thief. >>>> > > So, I guess, we have to get our head around >>>> > these >>>> > "unpleasant >>>> > > surprises" in genealogy of which the aftermath of the >>>> > second >>>> > world >>>> > > war is just such a factor... and this NEVER seems to >>>> > be >>>> > a one >>>> > sided >>>> > > deal, my friends! >>>> > > It hits home, when a transgression highly >>>> > censured is >>>> > returned by >>>> > > just the same, and sometimes even worse crimes. It >>>> > makes us >>>> > look >>>> > > at ourselves of what we are at our worst while we >>>> > know >>>> > that we >>>> > > could be our best. This feeling is called shame. >>>> > Genocide is >>>> > > shame on all levels of humanity. It is a pity that >>>> > we >>>> > will >>>> > find >>>> > > it in our roots. And then it is best to KNOW YOUR >>>> > HISTORY >>>> > > Aida >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 7:11 AM, Laurence Krupnak >>>> > <LKrupnak@verizon.net> >>>> > > wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > > / >>>> > > >>>> > > Hello Aida, >>>> > > >>>> > > Knowledge and data about the "afterwords" >>>> > existed, but >>>> > a small >>>> > > number of people read the literature. Not many people >>>> > are >>>> > > interested in the past. >>>> > > >>>> > > _______ >>>> > > >>>> > > Laurence >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > > From: Aida Kraus >>>> > > >>>> > > To: Laurence Krupnak ; >>>> > german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >>>> > > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 9:52 AM >>>> > > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: >>>> > expulsion >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Oh yes, dear Lavrentiy, THAT is widely >>>> > published >>>> > in the >>>> > Holocaust >>>> > > papers and many other documentation from the >>>> > Nuremberg >>>> > trials >>>> > in a >>>> > > neverending supply of stories for the media....... >>>> > but >>>> > what >>>> > came >>>> > > "afterwards" that is something that did not get into >>>> > any press >>>> > and >>>> > > was put under lock and key at Bonn for 50 years. It >>>> > is >>>> > just >>>> > now >>>> > > surfacing, as it should, because this is also a part >>>> > of >>>> > history. >>>> > > Obviously the retaliation was equally fierce, if not >>>> > more so. >>>> > > Aida >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 5:49 AM, Laurence >>>> > Krupnak >>>> > > <LKrupnak@verizon.net> wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > > / >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Do data exist for the number of Germans >>>> > who >>>> > resided in the >>>> > > places >>>> > > that you described who either joined or were >>>> > conscripted in Nazi >>>> > > military and they themselves committed >>>> > attrocities? >>>> > Any memoirs >>>> > > or >>>> > > letters of admission or regret on what they >>>> > or >>>> > Germany >>>> > did? >>>> > > >>>> > > _____ >>>> > > >>>> > > Lavrentiy >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > > From: "Aida Kraus" <draytonharbor@gmail.com> >>>> > > To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> >>>> > > Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2012 2:52 PM >>>> > > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: >>>> > expulsion >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > This is a witness report of people who have >>>> > gone >>>> > through the >>>> > > cruelty >>>> > > > of >>>> > > > expulsion from their homeland. It is a >>>> > document >>>> > called >>>> > > "Whitebook" >>>> > > > and >>>> > > > contains legal witness records kept in the >>>> > files at >>>> > Bonn by the >>>> > > > German >>>> > > > Government for 50 years under lock and key. >>>> > However, >>>> > they should >>>> > > have >>>> > > > published it as part of truthful reporting >>>> > of >>>> > history after the >>>> > > > homeless >>>> > > > had declared their Charter. You will find >>>> > that >>>> > charter on the >>>> > > link >>>> > > > listed >>>> > > > below. There were 14 to 16 Million of us >>>> > Germans >>>> > who have lost >>>> > > their >>>> > > > homeland after WW2. The numbers of >>>> > expelled >>>> > persons >>>> > and their >>>> > > deaths >>>> > > > have >>>> > > > never been fully established. They were >>>> > living for >>>> > centuries (in >>>> > > some >>>> > > > cases >>>> > > > as natives) in countries which is now >>>> > Poland, >>>> > Lithuania, >>>> > > Estonia, >>>> > > > Latvia, >>>> > > > Ukraine, the different states of the former >>>> > Yugoslavia, >>>> > > Czechoslovakia >>>> > > > and >>>> > > > others, and their deaths were caused by >>>> > mass >>>> > transports, mass >>>> > > > executions, >>>> > > > rapes and sadistic tortures between >>>> > 1945-1947, up to >>>> > two years >>>> > > after >>>> > > > the >>>> > > > war. Mass graves of these martyred people >>>> > are >>>> > found >>>> > from time to >>>> > > time >>>> > > > even >>>> > > > now at construction excavations but >>>> > creates >>>> > just a >>>> > minimum of >>>> > > > publicity, >>>> > > > because it was so horrendous that even the >>>> > victims >>>> > would rather >>>> > > > forget. >>>> > > > Read the Charta at this page and notice >>>> > the >>>> > date of >>>> > the >>>> > > Charter.... >>>> > > > just >>>> > > > 5 years after the war when wound of our >>>> > losses were >>>> > still fresh: >>>> > > > >>>> > http://www.bund-der-vertriebenen.de/derbdv/charta-en.php3 >>>> > > > Aida >>>> > > > >>>> > > > On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 11:16 AM, >>>> > <miscsearch@aol.com> wrote: >>>> > > > >>>> > > >> Aida, >>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> I found this while researching family >>>> > members from >>>> > Freiwaldau. >>>> > > What >>>> > > >> is >>>> > > >> your opinion of this. >>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/whitebook/desg00.html >>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> I've seen postings in the past regarding >>>> > propaganda >>>> > and would >>>> > > like to >>>> > > >> know what's what. Thanks. >>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> Cathy >>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>>> > > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>> > > >> ------------------------------- >>>> > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send >>>> > an >>>> > email >>>> > to >>>> > > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with >>>> > the word >>>> > > 'unsubscribe' >>>> > > >> without >>>> > > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of >>>> > the >>>> > message >>>> > > >> >>>> > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>>> > > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>> > > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send >>>> > an >>>> > email >>>> > to >>>> > > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with >>>> > the >>>> > word >>>> > 'unsubscribe' >>>> > > > without the quotes in the subject and the >>>> > body of >>>> > the message >>>> > > >>>> > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>>> > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an >>>> > email to >>>> > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word >>>> > 'unsubscribe' >>>> > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >>>> > message >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>>> > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an >>>> > email >>>> > to >>>> > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word >>>> > 'unsubscribe' >>>> > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >>>> > message >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>>> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word >>>> > 'unsubscribe' without >>>> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>>> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>> > ------------------------------- >>>> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > >>>> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>>> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>>> > ------------------------------- >>>> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> > without >>>> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> To contact the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN list administrator, send an email to >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-admin@rootsweb.com. >>>> >>>> To post a message to the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN mailing list, send an >>>> email >>>> to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com. >>>> >>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com >>>> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and >>>> the >>>> body of the >>>> email with no additional text. >>>> >>>> >>>> End of GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 109 >>>> *********************************************** >>> >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

One thing I was much surprised to experience, was that those people who had suffered most grievously under the Nazi Regime, and I mean the Jewish community, did NOT involve themselves in the actual "hands on" expulsion of Germans. They would have had all rights on their side to perpetrate such revenge of such horrendous scope that was forthcoming.. They did not continue with cruelty they themselves had experienced, they behaved properly by seeking restitution in a legal way. They achieved that the German government compensated them for the rest of their lives with "Wiedergutmachung" payments in monthly installments, which are repayments for reparation and atonement in a justly and legal way. Many of our Jewish neighbors came back to their homes in Czechoslovakia and were denied return of their property as well, and then they were "shoved" off like the Germans. A few Czech speaking Jews were accepted back, especially if they had Czech mates, but the others found themselves as homeless as the Germans themselves. This is an observation on my part looking back on that time. And now, mature in mind I am asking myself, what does this tell us? Aida On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 5:38 AM, Heinz Schoner <heinzie@nvbell.net> wrote: > Hi all, > > I agree with Lavrentiy, A person always needs to hear both sides of a > chat. As > a son of an expellee i would like that. My only problem the chat I hear > is from > the persons directly effected from being expelled and I never hear from the > persons who did the expelling (because they don't want to admit it or fess > up to > it I guess). So on one side i have first hand experiences and on the > other side > all I can find is people (not the people involved) saying they believe this > happened or just spreading hearsay. > > > So very true, we need to always listen to both perspectives and look at > all > research. Then you can make an informed decision. > > Heinz > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net> > To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thu, July 12, 2012 9:25:37 AM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Expulsion discussions > > Hello Aida, > > The "chat" does contain valuable information from all perspectives and > many > references. People should not learn about the expulsions from only the > German > expulsion organizations. > > ________ > > Lavrentiy > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Aida Kraus > To: Laurence Krupnak ; german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 1:32 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Expulsion discussions > > > To me this seems like a lot of "chat" but very little historical > evidence, I > think the You tube presentations are more factual. > Aida > > > On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net> > wrote: > > > > / > > Want to contribute?: > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II > > > ______ > > Lavrentiy > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net> > To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 12:00 PM > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Expulsion discussions > > > > Example expulsion discussions: > > > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AExpulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II/Archive_10 > > > > > > > > > _______ > > > > Lavrentiy > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net> > > To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 10:32 AM > > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue > > 109 > > > > > >> Hi Brandt, > >> > >> There are many books, papers, etc. on the subject. It is > critical > >> to read information from all perspectives: expellee and expellee > >> organizations, Czech point-of-view, etc. > >> > >> Anybody have recommendations about references which have a > >> "neutral" bias? > >> > >> ________ > >> > >> Lavrentiy > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Brandt Gibson" <ironhide781@hotmail.com> > >> To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > >> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 7:10 PM > >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue > >> 109 > >> > >> > >>> > >>> I only learned of the expulsion recently through this mailing list. > >>> Are there any books on the expulsion? My ancestors lived in the > >>> Rosshaupt/Strobl/Zirk area, so anything about that area would be of > >>> interest to me, before or after the expulsion. Thanks, Brandt > >>> > From: german-bohemian-request@rootsweb.com > >>>> Subject: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 109 > >>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >>>> Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 10:49:19 -0600 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>> > >>>> Today's Topics: > >>>> > >>>> 1. Re: For Aida - re: expulsion (Laurence Krupnak) > >>>> 2. Malinak from Halenkov (dcuillard@aol.com) > >>>> 3. Re: For Aida - re: expulsion (fslocum@accelplus.net) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> > >>>> Message: 1 > >>>> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 11:49:46 -0400 > >>>> From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net> > >>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: expulsion > >>>> To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > >>>> Message-ID: <820E72FB59024BADB2A2712499002536@user45c476a8b6> > >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >>>> > >>>> Marg and Frank, > >>>> > >>>> I too do that (dig into details), but we are a very, very, > >>>> very, > >>>> very, very, etc. small number of people who do that. > >>>> > >>>> ________ > >>>> > >>>> Lavrentiy > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: Marg McEuen > >>>> To: Laurence Krupnak ; german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >>>> Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 12:41 PM > >>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: expulsion > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> I also have to disagree, Laurence and agree with Frank and > >>>> Aida. I, too, have had someone who went to my paternal > >>>> Gt-grandmother, Theresia Kahabka's, house site at Domaslav 18 > (near > >>>> Lestkov) and sent back pictures. I am unable to travel so far > >>>> because of health reasons, so this was very much appreciated. I, > >>>> too, try to find out what happened to siblings, aunts, uncles, > etc. > >>>> for as many ancestors as I can and the history that was going on > >>>> around them. > >>>> > >>>> None of my immediate ancestors were in the Expulsion, but I > >>>> do try to read as much on it as I can, as I would like to find out > >>>> what happened to some of their relatives who may have stayed. My > >>>> paternal grandmother, Elizabeth Kunzel, died at age 92 when I was > >>>> just out of high school, in 1958, so I never was able to ask her > >>>> about why she immigrated to Napa Valley, CA in 1886. I would very > >>>> much like to know what happened to one of her uncles and one aunt, > >>>> as > >>>> her parents, siblings and her other uncles also came to the USA > by > >>>> 1887. > >>>> > >>>> I really appreciate all the info and links to sources and > >>>> your personal recollections, Aida. That helps me fill in some of > >>>> the > >>>> history in Bohemia after my direct ancestors left. Thank you so > >>>> much > >>>> for all you do in helping fill in some historical gaps. Marg > >>>> McEuen > >>>> > >>>> --- On Sun, 7/8/12, fslocum@accelplus.net > >>>> <fslocum@accelplus.net> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> From: fslocum@accelplus.net <fslocum@accelplus.net> > >>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: expulsion > >>>> To: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net>, > >>>> german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >>>> Date: Sunday, July 8, 2012, 9:35 AM > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> lawrence, I disagree. I like the stories of the family > >>>> activities, and > >>>> like following a stream upstream, attempt to find the > >>>> source. When it > >>>> crosses the ocean, and language barriers, it all becomes > >>>> more difficult. > >>>> > >>>> I know my great grandfathers origin and two generations > >>>> prior. I also know > >>>> there were siblings, one of whom visited the USA and > >>>> witnessed his will. > >>>> But what happened to them from 1870 on? > >>>> > >>>> A dear person in Prague travelled to the small village > >>>> near > >>>> Karlsbad and > >>>> took pictures of the home plot, Poschitz #4, long gone > >>>> except for flowers, > >>>> grasses and a well spot. > >>>> > >>>> In my 70's now, it is still my ambition to travel there > >>>> an > >>>> see it for > >>>> myself. I will pick up two small stones, one for me and > >>>> the > >>>> other for his > >>>> grave marker. > >>>> > >>>> Frank Heidl Slocum > >>>> Great grandson of Franz Josef Heidl > >>>> > >>>> > / > >>>> > Not many people are interested in serious historical > >>>> and genealogical > >>>> > research. Many people have a passing interest, but > >>>> they > >>>> don't get > >>>> > close to scholarly or detailed information. They just > >>>> want to punch a > >>>> > name in a computer database and get their genealogy > >>>> back > >>>> to Adam and > >>>> > Eve. > >>>> > > >>>> > ______ > >>>> > > >>>> > Laurence > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> > From: Aida Kraus > >>>> > To: Laurence Krupnak ; german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >>>> > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 11:04 AM > >>>> > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: > >>>> expulsion > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > As far as genealogy is concerned, I must disagree, > >>>> because ancestors > >>>> > can only be found in historical records. Expulsion > >>>> lists, court > >>>> > documents, witness reports, property records are all > >>>> part > >>>> of this and > >>>> > present valuable information material for genealogical > >>>> research. If > >>>> > you do not know history, how can you possibly find > >>>> your > >>>> roots? The > >>>> > truth of history will eventually come out, no matter > >>>> how > >>>> long it takes. > >>>> > I will give you an example. I had a friend who simply > >>>> could not find a > >>>> > link to a family member. The person she was looking > >>>> for > >>>> "did not > >>>> > exist". Not in her family anyway. But she was > >>>> tenacious. > >>>> In the end she > >>>> > found out why he did not exist in any records of her > >>>> family. ...... > >>>> > because he was judged and hanged for a horse thief. > >>>> > So, I guess, we have to get our head around > >>>> these > >>>> "unpleasant > >>>> > surprises" in genealogy of which the aftermath of the > >>>> second world > >>>> > war is just such a factor... and this NEVER seems to be > >>>> a > >>>> one sided > >>>> > deal, my friends! > >>>> > It hits home, when a transgression highly > >>>> censured is returned by > >>>> > just the same, and sometimes even worse crimes. It > >>>> makes > >>>> us look > >>>> > at ourselves of what we are at our worst while we know > >>>> that we > >>>> > could be our best. This feeling is called shame. > >>>> Genocide is > >>>> > shame on all levels of humanity. It is a pity that we > >>>> will find > >>>> > it in our roots. And then it is best to KNOW YOUR > >>>> HISTORY > >>>> > Aida > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 7:11 AM, Laurence Krupnak > >>>> <LKrupnak@verizon.net> > >>>> > wrote: > >>>> > > >>>> > / > >>>> > > >>>> > Hello Aida, > >>>> > > >>>> > Knowledge and data about the "afterwords" > >>>> existed, but a small > >>>> > number of people read the literature. Not many people > >>>> are > >>>> > interested in the past. > >>>> > > >>>> > _______ > >>>> > > >>>> > Laurence > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> > From: Aida Kraus > >>>> > > >>>> > To: Laurence Krupnak ; > >>>> german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >>>> > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 9:52 AM > >>>> > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: > >>>> expulsion > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > Oh yes, dear Lavrentiy, THAT is widely published > >>>> in > >>>> the Holocaust > >>>> > papers and many other documentation from the Nuremberg > >>>> trials in a > >>>> > neverending supply of stories for the media....... but > >>>> what came > >>>> > "afterwards" that is something that did not get into > >>>> any > >>>> press and > >>>> > was put under lock and key at Bonn for 50 years. It is > >>>> just now > >>>> > surfacing, as it should, because this is also a part > >>>> of > >>>> history. > >>>> > Obviously the retaliation was equally fierce, if not > >>>> more so. > >>>> > Aida > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 5:49 AM, Laurence Krupnak > >>>> > <LKrupnak@verizon.net> wrote: > >>>> > > >>>> > / > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > Do data exist for the number of Germans > >>>> who > >>>> resided in the > >>>> > places > >>>> > that you described who either joined or were > >>>> conscripted in Nazi > >>>> > military and they themselves committed > >>>> attrocities? Any memoirs > >>>> > or > >>>> > letters of admission or regret on what they or > >>>> Germany did? > >>>> > > >>>> > _____ > >>>> > > >>>> > Lavrentiy > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> > From: "Aida Kraus" <draytonharbor@gmail.com> > >>>> > To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > >>>> > Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2012 2:52 PM > >>>> > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: > >>>> expulsion > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > This is a witness report of people who have > >>>> gone through the > >>>> > cruelty > >>>> > > of > >>>> > > expulsion from their homeland. It is a > >>>> document called > >>>> > "Whitebook" > >>>> > > and > >>>> > > contains legal witness records kept in the > >>>> files at Bonn by the > >>>> > > German > >>>> > > Government for 50 years under lock and key. > >>>> However, they should > >>>> > have > >>>> > > published it as part of truthful reporting of > >>>> history after the > >>>> > > homeless > >>>> > > had declared their Charter. You will find > >>>> that > >>>> charter on the > >>>> > link > >>>> > > listed > >>>> > > below. There were 14 to 16 Million of us > >>>> Germans who have lost > >>>> > their > >>>> > > homeland after WW2. The numbers of expelled > >>>> persons and their > >>>> > deaths > >>>> > > have > >>>> > > never been fully established. They were > >>>> living > >>>> for centuries (in > >>>> > some > >>>> > > cases > >>>> > > as natives) in countries which is now Poland, > >>>> Lithuania, > >>>> > Estonia, > >>>> > > Latvia, > >>>> > > Ukraine, the different states of the former > >>>> Yugoslavia, > >>>> > Czechoslovakia > >>>> > > and > >>>> > > others, and their deaths were caused by mass > >>>> transports, mass > >>>> > > executions, > >>>> > > rapes and sadistic tortures between > >>>> 1945-1947, > >>>> up to two years > >>>> > after > >>>> > > the > >>>> > > war. Mass graves of these martyred people are > >>>> found from time to > >>>> > time > >>>> > > even > >>>> > > now at construction excavations but creates > >>>> just a minimum of > >>>> > > publicity, > >>>> > > because it was so horrendous that even the > >>>> victims would rather > >>>> > > forget. > >>>> > > Read the Charta at this page and notice the > >>>> date of the > >>>> > Charter.... > >>>> > > just > >>>> > > 5 years after the war when wound of our > >>>> losses > >>>> were still fresh: > >>>> > > > >>>> http://www.bund-der-vertriebenen.de/derbdv/charta-en.php3 > >>>> > > Aida > >>>> > > > >>>> > > On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 11:16 AM, > >>>> <miscsearch@aol.com> wrote: > >>>> > > > >>>> > >> Aida, > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> I found this while researching family > >>>> members > >>>> from Freiwaldau. > >>>> > What > >>>> > >> is > >>>> > >> your opinion of this. > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > > http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/whitebook/desg00.html > > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> I've seen postings in the past regarding > >>>> propaganda and would > >>>> > like to > >>>> > >> know what's what. Thanks. > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> Cathy > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >>>> > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>> > >> ------------------------------- > >>>> > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an > >>>> email to > >>>> > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with > >>>> the > >>>> word > >>>> > 'unsubscribe' > >>>> > >> without > >>>> > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of > >>>> the > >>>> message > >>>> > >> > >>>> > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >>>> > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>> > > ------------------------------- > >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an > >>>> email to > >>>> > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the > >>>> word 'unsubscribe' > >>>> > > without the quotes in the subject and the > >>>> body > >>>> of the message > >>>> > > >>>> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >>>> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>> > ------------------------------- > >>>> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an > >>>> email to > >>>> > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word > >>>> 'unsubscribe' > >>>> > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > >>>> message > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >>>> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>> > ------------------------------- > >>>> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email > >>>> to > >>>> > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word > >>>> 'unsubscribe' > >>>> > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > >>>> message > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>> > ------------------------------- > >>>> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word > >>>> 'unsubscribe' without > >>>> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >>>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------ > >>>> > >>>> Message: 2 > >>>> Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 11:55:55 -0400 (EDT) > >>>> From: dcuillard@aol.com > >>>> Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Malinak from Halenkov > >>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >>>> Message-ID: <8CF2C027534F63C-8B4-EB1@webmail-d051.sysops.aol.com> > >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Seeking help in locating Christening records from 1835-1845 for > the > >>>> Village of Halenkov in Czech Republic. > >>>> Ancestor Johannes "John" Malinak immigrated to Texas in 1872 and > he > >>>> and his wife listed their birthplaces as Halenkov. > >>>> Thanks, > >>>> Donna > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------ > >>>> > >>>> Message: 3 > >>>> Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 12:49:06 -0400 (EDT) > >>>> From: fslocum@accelplus.net > >>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: expulsion > >>>> To: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net>, > >>>> german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >>>> Message-ID: > >>>> <49414.97.97.3.169.1341852546.squirrel@secure.accelplus.net> > >>>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > >>>> > >>>> Lavrentiy, I consider this curious effort the worlds largest > jigsaw > >>>> puzzle. It is in my basic curiosity make up. Sometimes I find a > >>>> piece and > >>>> know it fits someplace but must find the adjoining piece first. > >>>> This > >>>> puzzle is a 360 degree puzzle. > >>>> > >>>> Frank > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Marg and Frank, > >>>> > > >>>> > I too do that (dig into details), but we are a very, very, > >>>> > very, very, > >>>> > very, etc. small number of people who do that. > >>>> > > >>>> > ________ > >>>> > > >>>> > Lavrentiy > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> > From: Marg McEuen > >>>> > To: Laurence Krupnak ; german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >>>> > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 12:41 PM > >>>> > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: expulsion > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > I also have to disagree, Laurence and agree with Frank > >>>> > and > >>>> > Aida. > >>>> > I, too, have had someone who went to my paternal Gt-grandmother, > >>>> > Theresia Kahabka's, house site at Domaslav 18 (near Lestkov) and > >>>> > sent back pictures. I am unable to travel so far because of > >>>> > health reasons, so this was very much appreciated. I, too, try > >>>> > to > >>>> > find out what happened to siblings, aunts, uncles, etc. for as > >>>> > many ancestors as I can and the history that was going on around > >>>> > them. > >>>> > > >>>> > None of my immediate ancestors were in the Expulsion, but > >>>> > I > >>>> > do try > >>>> > to read as much on it as I can, as I would like to find out what > >>>> > happened to some of their relatives who may have stayed. My > >>>> > paternal grandmother, Elizabeth Kunzel, died at age 92 when I > was > >>>> > just out of high school, in 1958, so I never was able to ask her > >>>> > about why she immigrated to Napa Valley, CA in 1886. I would > >>>> > very > >>>> > much like to know what happened to one of her uncles and one > >>>> > aunt, > >>>> > as her parents, siblings and her other uncles also came to the > >>>> > USA by 1887. > >>>> > > >>>> > I really appreciate all the info and links to sources and > >>>> > your > >>>> > personal recollections, Aida. That helps me fill in some of the > >>>> > history in Bohemia after my direct ancestors left. Thank you so > >>>> > much for all you do in helping fill in some historical gaps. > >>>> > Marg > >>>> > McEuen > >>>> > > >>>> > --- On Sun, 7/8/12, fslocum@accelplus.net > >>>> > <fslocum@accelplus.net> > >>>> > wrote: > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > From: fslocum@accelplus.net <fslocum@accelplus.net> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: expulsion > >>>> > To: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net>, > >>>> > german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >>>> > Date: Sunday, July 8, 2012, 9:35 AM > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > lawrence, I disagree. I like the stories of the family > >>>> > activities, and > >>>> > like following a stream upstream, attempt to find the > >>>> > source. > >>>> > When it > >>>> > crosses the ocean, and language barriers, it all > >>>> > becomes > >>>> > more > >>>> > difficult. > >>>> > > >>>> > I know my great grandfathers origin and two generations > >>>> > prior. I > >>>> > also know > >>>> > there were siblings, one of whom visited the USA and > >>>> > witnessed > >>>> > his will. > >>>> > But what happened to them from 1870 on? > >>>> > > >>>> > A dear person in Prague travelled to the small village > >>>> > near > >>>> > Karlsbad and > >>>> > took pictures of the home plot, Poschitz #4, long gone > >>>> > except > >>>> > for flowers, > >>>> > grasses and a well spot. > >>>> > > >>>> > In my 70's now, it is still my ambition to travel there > >>>> > an see > >>>> > it for > >>>> > myself. I will pick up two small stones, one for me and > >>>> > the > >>>> > other for his > >>>> > grave marker. > >>>> > > >>>> > Frank Heidl Slocum > >>>> > Great grandson of Franz Josef Heidl > >>>> > > >>>> > > / > >>>> > > Not many people are interested in serious > >>>> > historical > >>>> > and > >>>> > genealogical > >>>> > > research. Many people have a passing interest, but > >>>> > they don't > >>>> > get > >>>> > > close to scholarly or detailed information. They > >>>> > just > >>>> > want to > >>>> > punch a > >>>> > > name in a computer database and get their genealogy > >>>> > back to > >>>> > Adam and > >>>> > > Eve. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > ______ > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Laurence > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> > > From: Aida Kraus > >>>> > > To: Laurence Krupnak ; german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >>>> > > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 11:04 AM > >>>> > > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: > >>>> > expulsion > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > As far as genealogy is concerned, I must disagree, > >>>> > because > >>>> > ancestors > >>>> > > can only be found in historical records. Expulsion > >>>> > lists, > >>>> > court > >>>> > > documents, witness reports, property records are all > >>>> > part of > >>>> > this and > >>>> > > present valuable information material for > >>>> > genealogical > >>>> > research. If > >>>> > > you do not know history, how can you possibly find > >>>> > your > >>>> > roots? The > >>>> > > truth of history will eventually come out, no matter > >>>> > how long > >>>> > it takes. > >>>> > > I will give you an example. I had a friend who > >>>> > simply > >>>> > could > >>>> > not find a > >>>> > > link to a family member. The person she was looking > >>>> > for "did > >>>> > not > >>>> > > exist". Not in her family anyway. But she was > >>>> > tenacious. In > >>>> > the end she > >>>> > > found out why he did not exist in any records of her > >>>> > family. > >>>> > ...... > >>>> > > because he was judged and hanged for a horse thief. > >>>> > > So, I guess, we have to get our head around > >>>> > these > >>>> > "unpleasant > >>>> > > surprises" in genealogy of which the aftermath of the > >>>> > second > >>>> > world > >>>> > > war is just such a factor... and this NEVER seems to > >>>> > be > >>>> > a one > >>>> > sided > >>>> > > deal, my friends! > >>>> > > It hits home, when a transgression highly > >>>> > censured is > >>>> > returned by > >>>> > > just the same, and sometimes even worse crimes. It > >>>> > makes us > >>>> > look > >>>> > > at ourselves of what we are at our worst while we > >>>> > know > >>>> > that we > >>>> > > could be our best. This feeling is called shame. > >>>> > Genocide is > >>>> > > shame on all levels of humanity. It is a pity that > >>>> > we > >>>> > will > >>>> > find > >>>> > > it in our roots. And then it is best to KNOW YOUR > >>>> > HISTORY > >>>> > > Aida > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 7:11 AM, Laurence Krupnak > >>>> > <LKrupnak@verizon.net> > >>>> > > wrote: > >>>> > > > >>>> > > / > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Hello Aida, > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Knowledge and data about the "afterwords" > >>>> > existed, but > >>>> > a small > >>>> > > number of people read the literature. Not many people > >>>> > are > >>>> > > interested in the past. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > _______ > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Laurence > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> > > From: Aida Kraus > >>>> > > > >>>> > > To: Laurence Krupnak ; > >>>> > german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >>>> > > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 9:52 AM > >>>> > > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: > >>>> > expulsion > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Oh yes, dear Lavrentiy, THAT is widely > >>>> > published > >>>> > in the > >>>> > Holocaust > >>>> > > papers and many other documentation from the > >>>> > Nuremberg > >>>> > trials > >>>> > in a > >>>> > > neverending supply of stories for the media....... > >>>> > but > >>>> > what > >>>> > came > >>>> > > "afterwards" that is something that did not get into > >>>> > any press > >>>> > and > >>>> > > was put under lock and key at Bonn for 50 years. It > >>>> > is > >>>> > just > >>>> > now > >>>> > > surfacing, as it should, because this is also a part > >>>> > of > >>>> > history. > >>>> > > Obviously the retaliation was equally fierce, if not > >>>> > more so. > >>>> > > Aida > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 5:49 AM, Laurence > >>>> > Krupnak > >>>> > > <LKrupnak@verizon.net> wrote: > >>>> > > > >>>> > > / > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Do data exist for the number of Germans > >>>> > who > >>>> > resided in the > >>>> > > places > >>>> > > that you described who either joined or were > >>>> > conscripted in Nazi > >>>> > > military and they themselves committed > >>>> > attrocities? > >>>> > Any memoirs > >>>> > > or > >>>> > > letters of admission or regret on what they > >>>> > or > >>>> > Germany > >>>> > did? > >>>> > > > >>>> > > _____ > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Lavrentiy > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> > > From: "Aida Kraus" <draytonharbor@gmail.com> > >>>> > > To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > >>>> > > Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2012 2:52 PM > >>>> > > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: > >>>> > expulsion > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > This is a witness report of people who have > >>>> > gone > >>>> > through the > >>>> > > cruelty > >>>> > > > of > >>>> > > > expulsion from their homeland. It is a > >>>> > document > >>>> > called > >>>> > > "Whitebook" > >>>> > > > and > >>>> > > > contains legal witness records kept in the > >>>> > files at > >>>> > Bonn by the > >>>> > > > German > >>>> > > > Government for 50 years under lock and key. > >>>> > However, > >>>> > they should > >>>> > > have > >>>> > > > published it as part of truthful reporting > >>>> > of > >>>> > history after the > >>>> > > > homeless > >>>> > > > had declared their Charter. You will find > >>>> > that > >>>> > charter on the > >>>> > > link > >>>> > > > listed > >>>> > > > below. There were 14 to 16 Million of us > >>>> > Germans > >>>> > who have lost > >>>> > > their > >>>> > > > homeland after WW2. The numbers of > >>>> > expelled > >>>> > persons > >>>> > and their > >>>> > > deaths > >>>> > > > have > >>>> > > > never been fully established. They were > >>>> > living for > >>>> > centuries (in > >>>> > > some > >>>> > > > cases > >>>> > > > as natives) in countries which is now > >>>> > Poland, > >>>> > Lithuania, > >>>> > > Estonia, > >>>> > > > Latvia, > >>>> > > > Ukraine, the different states of the former > >>>> > Yugoslavia, > >>>> > > Czechoslovakia > >>>> > > > and > >>>> > > > others, and their deaths were caused by > >>>> > mass > >>>> > transports, mass > >>>> > > > executions, > >>>> > > > rapes and sadistic tortures between > >>>> > 1945-1947, up to > >>>> > two years > >>>> > > after > >>>> > > > the > >>>> > > > war. Mass graves of these martyred people > >>>> > are > >>>> > found > >>>> > from time to > >>>> > > time > >>>> > > > even > >>>> > > > now at construction excavations but > >>>> > creates > >>>> > just a > >>>> > minimum of > >>>> > > > publicity, > >>>> > > > because it was so horrendous that even the > >>>> > victims > >>>> > would rather > >>>> > > > forget. > >>>> > > > Read the Charta at this page and notice > >>>> > the > >>>> > date of > >>>> > the > >>>> > > Charter.... > >>>> > > > just > >>>> > > > 5 years after the war when wound of our > >>>> > losses were > >>>> > still fresh: > >>>> > > > > >>>> > http://www.bund-der-vertriebenen.de/derbdv/charta-en.php3 > >>>> > > > Aida > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 11:16 AM, > >>>> > <miscsearch@aol.com> wrote: > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > >> Aida, > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > >> I found this while researching family > >>>> > members from > >>>> > Freiwaldau. > >>>> > > What > >>>> > > >> is > >>>> > > >> your opinion of this. > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > > http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/whitebook/desg00.html > > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > >> I've seen postings in the past regarding > >>>> > propaganda > >>>> > and would > >>>> > > like to > >>>> > > >> know what's what. Thanks. > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > >> Cathy > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >>>> > > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>> > > >> ------------------------------- > >>>> > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send > >>>> > an > >>>> > email > >>>> > to > >>>> > > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with > >>>> > the word > >>>> > > 'unsubscribe' > >>>> > > >> without > >>>> > > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of > >>>> > the > >>>> > message > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >>>> > > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>> > > > ------------------------------- > >>>> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send > >>>> > an > >>>> > email > >>>> > to > >>>> > > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with > >>>> > the > >>>> > word > >>>> > 'unsubscribe' > >>>> > > > without the quotes in the subject and the > >>>> > body of > >>>> > the message > >>>> > > > >>>> > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >>>> > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>> > > ------------------------------- > >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an > >>>> > email to > >>>> > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word > >>>> > 'unsubscribe' > >>>> > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > >>>> > message > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >>>> > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>> > > ------------------------------- > >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an > >>>> > email > >>>> > to > >>>> > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word > >>>> > 'unsubscribe' > >>>> > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > >>>> > message > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >>>> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>> > > ------------------------------- > >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word > >>>> > 'unsubscribe' without > >>>> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >>>> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>> > ------------------------------- > >>>> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' > >>>> > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > > >>>> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >>>> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>>> > ------------------------------- > >>>> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' > >>>> > without > >>>> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------ > >>>> > >>>> To contact the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN list administrator, send an email > to > >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > >>>> > >>>> To post a message to the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN mailing list, send an > >>>> email > >>>> to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com. > >>>> > >>>> __________________________________________________________ > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com > >>>> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and > >>>> the > >>>> body of the > >>>> email with no additional text. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> End of GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 109 > >>>> *********************************************** > >>> > >>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi all, I agree with Lavrentiy,  A person always needs to hear both sides of a chat.  As a son of an expellee i would like that.  My only problem the chat I hear is from the persons directly effected from being expelled and I never hear from the persons who did the expelling (because they don't want to admit it or fess up to it I guess).  So on one side i have first hand experiences and on the other side all I can find is people (not the people involved) saying they believe this happened or just spreading hearsay.  So very true, we need to always listen  to both perspectives and look at all research.  Then you can make an informed decision. Heinz   ________________________________ From: Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, July 12, 2012 9:25:37 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Expulsion discussions Hello Aida,   The "chat" does contain valuable information from all perspectives and many references.  People should not learn about the expulsions from only the German expulsion organizations. ________ Lavrentiy   ----- Original Message -----   From: Aida Kraus   To: Laurence Krupnak ; german-bohemian@rootsweb.com   Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 1:32 PM   Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Expulsion discussions   To me this seems like a lot of "chat" but very little historical evidence, I think the You tube presentations are more factual.   Aida   On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net> wrote:     /     Want to contribute?:     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II     ______     Lavrentiy     ----- Original Message -----     From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net>     To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com>     Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 12:00 PM     Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Expulsion discussions     > Example expulsion discussions:     >     >     > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AExpulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II/Archive_10     >     >     >     > _______     >     > Lavrentiy     >     >     >     > ----- Original Message -----     > From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net>     > To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com>     > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 10:32 AM     > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue     > 109     >     >     >> Hi Brandt,     >>     >>    There are many books, papers, etc. on the subject.  It is critical     >> to read information from all perspectives: expellee and expellee     >> organizations, Czech point-of-view, etc.     >>     >>    Anybody have recommendations about references which have a     >> "neutral" bias?     >>     >> ________     >>     >> Lavrentiy     >>     >>     >> ----- Original Message -----     >> From: "Brandt Gibson" <ironhide781@hotmail.com>     >> To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com>     >> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 7:10 PM     >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue     >> 109     >>     >>     >>>     >>> I only learned of the expulsion recently through this mailing list.     >>> Are there any books on the expulsion? My ancestors lived in the     >>> Rosshaupt/Strobl/Zirk area, so anything about that area would be of     >>> interest to me, before or after the expulsion.  Thanks,  Brandt     >>> > From: german-bohemian-request@rootsweb.com     >>>> Subject: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 109     >>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com     >>>> Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 10:49:19 -0600     >>>>     >>>>     >>>>     >>>> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site     >>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/     >>>>     >>>> Today's Topics:     >>>>     >>>>    1. Re: For Aida - re: expulsion (Laurence Krupnak)     >>>>    2. Malinak from Halenkov (dcuillard@aol.com)     >>>>    3. Re: For Aida - re: expulsion (fslocum@accelplus.net)     >>>>     >>>>     >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------     >>>>     >>>> Message: 1     >>>> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 11:49:46 -0400     >>>> From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net>     >>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: expulsion     >>>> To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com>     >>>> Message-ID: <820E72FB59024BADB2A2712499002536@user45c476a8b6>     >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"     >>>>     >>>> Marg and Frank,     >>>>     >>>>    I too do that (dig into details), but we are a very, very,     >>>> very,     >>>> very, very, etc. small number of people who do that.     >>>>     >>>> ________     >>>>     >>>> Lavrentiy     >>>>     >>>>     >>>>     >>>>  ----- Original Message -----     >>>>  From: Marg McEuen     >>>>  To: Laurence Krupnak ; german-bohemian@rootsweb.com     >>>>  Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 12:41 PM     >>>>  Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: expulsion     >>>>     >>>>     >>>>        I also have to disagree, Laurence and agree with Frank and     >>>> Aida.  I, too, have had someone who went to my paternal     >>>> Gt-grandmother, Theresia Kahabka's, house site at Domaslav 18 (near     >>>> Lestkov) and sent back pictures.  I am unable to travel so far     >>>> because of health reasons, so this was very much appreciated.  I,     >>>> too, try to find out what happened to siblings, aunts, uncles, etc.     >>>> for as many ancestors as I can and the history that was going on     >>>> around them.     >>>>     >>>>        None of my immediate ancestors were in the Expulsion, but I     >>>> do try to read as much on it as I can, as I would like to find out     >>>> what happened to some of their relatives who may have stayed.  My     >>>> paternal grandmother, Elizabeth Kunzel, died at age 92 when I was     >>>> just out of high school, in 1958, so I never was able to ask her     >>>> about why she immigrated to Napa Valley, CA in 1886.  I would very     >>>> much like to know what happened to one of her uncles and one aunt,     >>>> as     >>>> her parents, siblings and  her other uncles also came to the USA by     >>>> 1887.     >>>>     >>>>        I really appreciate all the info and links to sources and     >>>> your personal recollections, Aida.  That helps me fill in some of     >>>> the     >>>> history in Bohemia after my direct ancestors left.  Thank you so     >>>> much     >>>> for all you do in helping fill in some historical gaps.  Marg     >>>> McEuen     >>>>     >>>>        --- On Sun, 7/8/12, fslocum@accelplus.net     >>>> <fslocum@accelplus.net> wrote:     >>>>     >>>>     >>>>          From: fslocum@accelplus.net <fslocum@accelplus.net>     >>>>          Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: expulsion     >>>>          To: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net>,     >>>> german-bohemian@rootsweb.com     >>>>          Date: Sunday, July 8, 2012, 9:35 AM     >>>>     >>>>     >>>>          lawrence, I disagree. I like the stories of the family     >>>> activities, and     >>>>          like following a stream upstream, attempt to find the     >>>> source. When it     >>>>          crosses the ocean, and language barriers, it all becomes     >>>> more difficult.     >>>>     >>>>          I know my great grandfathers origin and two generations     >>>> prior. I also know     >>>>          there were siblings, one of whom visited the USA and     >>>> witnessed his will.     >>>>          But what happened to them from 1870 on?     >>>>     >>>>          A dear person in Prague travelled to the small village     >>>> near     >>>> Karlsbad and     >>>>          took pictures of the home plot, Poschitz #4, long gone     >>>> except for flowers,     >>>>          grasses and a well spot.     >>>>     >>>>          In my 70's now, it is still my ambition to travel there     >>>> an     >>>> see it for     >>>>          myself. I will pick up two small stones, one for me and     >>>> the     >>>> other for his     >>>>          grave marker.     >>>>     >>>>          Frank Heidl Slocum     >>>>          Great grandson of Franz Josef Heidl     >>>>     >>>>          > /     >>>>          >    Not many people are interested in serious historical     >>>> and genealogical     >>>>          > research.  Many people have a passing interest, but     >>>> they     >>>> don't get     >>>>          > close to scholarly or detailed information.  They just     >>>> want to punch a     >>>>          > name in a computer database and get their genealogy     >>>> back     >>>> to Adam and     >>>>          > Eve.     >>>>          >     >>>>          > ______     >>>>          >     >>>>          > Laurence     >>>>          >     >>>>          >     >>>>          >  ----- Original Message -----     >>>>          >  From: Aida Kraus     >>>>          >  To: Laurence Krupnak ; german-bohemian@rootsweb.com     >>>>          >  Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 11:04 AM     >>>>          >  Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re:     >>>> expulsion     >>>>          >     >>>>          >     >>>>          >  As far as  genealogy is concerned, I must disagree,     >>>> because ancestors     >>>>          > can only be found in historical records.  Expulsion     >>>> lists, court     >>>>          > documents, witness reports, property records are all     >>>> part     >>>> of this and     >>>>          > present valuable information material for genealogical     >>>> research.  If     >>>>          > you do not know  history, how can you possibly find     >>>> your     >>>> roots? The     >>>>          > truth of history will eventually come out, no matter     >>>> how     >>>> long it takes.     >>>>          > I will give you an example.  I had a friend who simply     >>>> could not find a     >>>>          > link to a family member.  The person she was looking     >>>> for     >>>> "did not     >>>>          > exist".  Not in her family anyway. But she was     >>>> tenacious.     >>>> In the end she     >>>>          > found out why he did not exist in any records of her     >>>> family.  ......     >>>>          > because he was judged and hanged for a horse thief.     >>>>          >        So, I guess,  we have to get our head around     >>>> these     >>>> "unpleasant     >>>>          > surprises" in genealogy of which the aftermath of the     >>>> second world     >>>>          > war is just such a factor... and this NEVER seems to be     >>>> a     >>>> one sided     >>>>          > deal, my friends!     >>>>          >        It hits home, when a transgression highly     >>>> censured is returned by     >>>>          > just the same, and sometimes even worse crimes. It     >>>> makes     >>>> us look     >>>>          > at ourselves of what we are at our worst while we know     >>>> that we     >>>>          > could be our best.  This feeling is called shame.     >>>> Genocide is     >>>>          > shame on all levels of humanity.  It is a pity that we     >>>> will find     >>>>          > it in our roots. And then it is best to KNOW YOUR     >>>> HISTORY     >>>>          >  Aida     >>>>          >     >>>>          >     >>>>          >  On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 7:11 AM, Laurence Krupnak     >>>> <LKrupnak@verizon.net>     >>>>          > wrote:     >>>>          >     >>>>          >    /     >>>>          >     >>>>          >    Hello Aida,     >>>>          >     >>>>          >        Knowledge and data about the "afterwords"     >>>> existed, but a small     >>>>          > number of people read the literature. Not many people     >>>> are     >>>>          > interested in the past.     >>>>          >     >>>>          >    _______     >>>>          >     >>>>          >    Laurence     >>>>          >     >>>>          >     >>>>          >     >>>>          >      ----- Original Message -----     >>>>          >      From: Aida Kraus     >>>>          >     >>>>          >      To: Laurence Krupnak ;     >>>> german-bohemian@rootsweb.com     >>>>          >      Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 9:52 AM     >>>>          >      Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re:     >>>> expulsion     >>>>          >     >>>>          >     >>>>          >      Oh yes, dear Lavrentiy, THAT is widely published     >>>> in     >>>> the Holocaust     >>>>          > papers and many other documentation from the Nuremberg     >>>> trials in a     >>>>          > neverending supply of stories for the media....... but     >>>> what came     >>>>          > "afterwards" that is something that did not get into     >>>> any     >>>> press and     >>>>          > was put under lock and key at Bonn for 50 years.  It is     >>>> just now     >>>>          > surfacing, as it should,  because this is also a part     >>>> of     >>>> history.     >>>>          > Obviously the retaliation was equally fierce, if  not     >>>> more so.     >>>>          >      Aida     >>>>          >     >>>>          >     >>>>          >      On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 5:49 AM, Laurence Krupnak     >>>>          > <LKrupnak@verizon.net> wrote:     >>>>          >     >>>>          >        /     >>>>          >     >>>>          >     >>>>          >              Do data exist for the number of Germans     >>>> who     >>>> resided in the     >>>>          > places     >>>>          >        that you described who either joined or were     >>>> conscripted in Nazi     >>>>          >        military and they themselves committed     >>>> attrocities?  Any memoirs     >>>>          > or     >>>>          >        letters of admission or regret on what they or     >>>> Germany did?     >>>>          >     >>>>          >        _____     >>>>          >     >>>>          >        Lavrentiy     >>>>          >     >>>>          >     >>>>          >     >>>>          >        ----- Original Message -----     >>>>          >        From: "Aida Kraus" <draytonharbor@gmail.com>     >>>>          >        To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com>     >>>>          >        Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2012 2:52 PM     >>>>          >        Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re:     >>>> expulsion     >>>>          >     >>>>          >     >>>>          >        > This is a witness report of people who have     >>>> gone through the     >>>>          > cruelty     >>>>          >        > of     >>>>          >        > expulsion from their homeland.  It is a     >>>> document called     >>>>          > "Whitebook"     >>>>          >        > and     >>>>          >        > contains legal witness records  kept in the     >>>> files at Bonn by the     >>>>          >        > German     >>>>          >        > Government for 50 years under lock and key.     >>>> However, they should     >>>>          > have     >>>>          >        > published it as part of truthful reporting of     >>>> history after the     >>>>          >        > homeless     >>>>          >        > had declared their Charter. You will find     >>>> that     >>>> charter on the     >>>>          > link     >>>>          >        > listed     >>>>          >        > below.  There were 14 to 16 Million of us     >>>> Germans who have lost     >>>>          > their     >>>>          >        > homeland  after WW2. The numbers of expelled     >>>> persons and their     >>>>          > deaths     >>>>          >        > have     >>>>          >        > never been fully established. They were     >>>> living     >>>> for centuries (in     >>>>          > some     >>>>          >        > cases     >>>>          >        > as natives) in countries which is now Poland,     >>>> Lithuania,     >>>>          > Estonia,     >>>>          >        > Latvia,     >>>>          >        > Ukraine, the different states of the former     >>>> Yugoslavia,     >>>>          > Czechoslovakia     >>>>          >        > and     >>>>          >        > others, and their deaths were caused by mass     >>>> transports, mass     >>>>          >        > executions,     >>>>          >        > rapes and sadistic tortures between     >>>> 1945-1947,     >>>> up to two years     >>>>          > after     >>>>          >        > the     >>>>          >        > war. Mass graves of these martyred people are     >>>> found from time to     >>>>          > time     >>>>          >        > even     >>>>          >        > now at construction excavations but  creates     >>>> just a minimum of     >>>>          >        > publicity,     >>>>          >        > because it was so horrendous that even the     >>>> victims would rather     >>>>          >        > forget.     >>>>          >        >  Read the Charta at this page and notice the     >>>> date of the     >>>>          > Charter....     >>>>          >        > just     >>>>          >        > 5 years after the war when wound of our     >>>> losses     >>>> were still fresh:     >>>>          >        >     >>>> http://www.bund-der-vertriebenen.de/derbdv/charta-en.php3     >>>>          >        > Aida     >>>>          >        >     >>>>          >        > On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 11:16 AM,     >>>> <miscsearch@aol.com> wrote:     >>>>          >        >     >>>>          >        >> Aida,     >>>>          >        >>     >>>>          >        >> I found this while researching family     >>>> members     >>>> from Freiwaldau.     >>>>          > What     >>>>          >        >> is     >>>>          >        >> your opinion of this.     >>>>          >        >>     >>>>          >        >>     >>>>          >        >>     >>>> http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/whitebook/desg00.html     >>>>          >        >>     >>>>          >        >> I've seen postings in the past regarding     >>>> propaganda and would     >>>>          > like to     >>>>          >        >> know what's what. Thanks.     >>>>          >        >>     >>>>          >        >> Cathy     >>>>          >        >>     >>>>          >        >>     >>>>          >        >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site     >>>>          >        >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/     >>>>          >        >> -------------------------------     >>>>          >        >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an     >>>> email to     >>>>          >        >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with     >>>> the     >>>> word     >>>>          > 'unsubscribe'     >>>>          >        >> without     >>>>          >        >> the quotes in the subject and the body of     >>>> the     >>>> message     >>>>          >        >>     >>>>          >        > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site     >>>>          >        > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/     >>>>          >        > -------------------------------     >>>>          >        > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an     >>>> email to     >>>>          >        > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the     >>>> word 'unsubscribe'     >>>>          >        > without the quotes in the subject and the     >>>> body     >>>> of the message     >>>>          >     >>>>          >        German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site     >>>>          > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/     >>>>          >        -------------------------------     >>>>          >        To unsubscribe from the list, please send an     >>>> email to     >>>>          > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word     >>>> 'unsubscribe'     >>>>          > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the     >>>> message     >>>>          >     >>>>          >     >>>>          >    German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site     >>>>          > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/     >>>>          >    -------------------------------     >>>>          >    To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email     >>>> to     >>>>          > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word     >>>> 'unsubscribe'     >>>>          > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the     >>>> message     >>>>          >     >>>>          >     >>>>          > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site     >>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/     >>>>          > -------------------------------     >>>>          > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to     >>>>          > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word     >>>> 'unsubscribe' without     >>>>          > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message     >>>>          >     >>>>     >>>>     >>>>          German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site     >>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/     >>>>          -------------------------------     >>>>          To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to     >>>> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe'     >>>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message     >>>>     >>>>     >>>>     >>>> ------------------------------     >>>>     >>>> Message: 2     >>>> Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 11:55:55 -0400 (EDT)     >>>> From: dcuillard@aol.com     >>>> Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Malinak from Halenkov     >>>> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com     >>>> Message-ID: <8CF2C027534F63C-8B4-EB1@webmail-d051.sysops.aol.com>     >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"     >>>>     >>>>     >>>>     >>>> Seeking help in locating Christening records from 1835-1845 for the     >>>> Village of Halenkov in Czech Republic.     >>>> Ancestor Johannes "John" Malinak immigrated to Texas in 1872 and he     >>>> and his wife listed their birthplaces as Halenkov.     >>>> Thanks,     >>>> Donna     >>>>     >>>>     >>>>     >>>> ------------------------------     >>>>     >>>> Message: 3     >>>> Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 12:49:06 -0400 (EDT)     >>>> From: fslocum@accelplus.net     >>>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: expulsion     >>>> To: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net>,     >>>> german-bohemian@rootsweb.com     >>>> Message-ID:     >>>> <49414.97.97.3.169.1341852546.squirrel@secure.accelplus.net>     >>>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1     >>>>     >>>> Lavrentiy, I consider this curious effort the worlds largest jigsaw     >>>> puzzle. It is in my basic curiosity make up.  Sometimes I find a     >>>> piece and     >>>> know it fits someplace but must find the adjoining piece first.     >>>> This     >>>> puzzle is a 360 degree puzzle.     >>>>     >>>> Frank     >>>>     >>>>     >>>> > Marg and Frank,     >>>> >     >>>> >    I too do that (dig into details), but we are a very, very,     >>>> > very, very,     >>>> > very, etc. small number of people who do that.     >>>> >     >>>> > ________     >>>> >     >>>> > Lavrentiy     >>>> >     >>>> >     >>>> >     >>>> >  ----- Original Message -----     >>>> >  From: Marg McEuen     >>>> >  To: Laurence Krupnak ; german-bohemian@rootsweb.com     >>>> >  Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 12:41 PM     >>>> >  Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: expulsion     >>>> >     >>>> >     >>>> >        I also have to disagree, Laurence and agree with Frank     >>>> > and     >>>> > Aida.     >>>> > I, too, have had someone who went to my paternal Gt-grandmother,     >>>> > Theresia Kahabka's, house site at Domaslav 18 (near Lestkov) and     >>>> > sent back pictures.  I am unable to travel so far because of     >>>> > health reasons, so this was very much appreciated.  I, too, try     >>>> > to     >>>> > find out what happened to siblings, aunts, uncles, etc. for as     >>>> > many ancestors as I can and the history that was going on around     >>>> > them.     >>>> >     >>>> >        None of my immediate ancestors were in the Expulsion, but     >>>> > I     >>>> > do try     >>>> > to read as much on it as I can, as I would like to find out what     >>>> > happened to some of their relatives who may have stayed.  My     >>>> > paternal grandmother, Elizabeth Kunzel, died at age 92 when I was     >>>> > just out of high school, in 1958, so I never was able to ask her     >>>> > about why she immigrated to Napa Valley, CA in 1886.  I would     >>>> > very     >>>> > much like to know what happened to one of her uncles and one     >>>> > aunt,     >>>> > as her parents, siblings and  her other uncles also came to the     >>>> > USA by 1887.     >>>> >     >>>> >        I really appreciate all the info and links to sources and     >>>> > your     >>>> > personal recollections, Aida.  That helps me fill in some of the     >>>> > history in Bohemia after my direct ancestors left.  Thank you so     >>>> > much for all you do in helping fill in some historical gaps.     >>>> > Marg     >>>> > McEuen     >>>> >     >>>> >        --- On Sun, 7/8/12, fslocum@accelplus.net     >>>> > <fslocum@accelplus.net>     >>>> > wrote:     >>>> >     >>>> >     >>>> >          From: fslocum@accelplus.net <fslocum@accelplus.net>     >>>> >          Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re: expulsion     >>>> >          To: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net>,     >>>> > german-bohemian@rootsweb.com     >>>> >          Date: Sunday, July 8, 2012, 9:35 AM     >>>> >     >>>> >     >>>> >          lawrence, I disagree. I like the stories of the family     >>>> > activities, and     >>>> >          like following a stream upstream, attempt to find the     >>>> > source.     >>>> > When it     >>>> >          crosses the ocean, and language barriers, it all     >>>> > becomes     >>>> > more     >>>> > difficult.     >>>> >     >>>> >          I know my great grandfathers origin and two generations     >>>> > prior. I     >>>> > also know     >>>> >          there were siblings, one of whom visited the USA and     >>>> > witnessed     >>>> > his will.     >>>> >          But what happened to them from 1870 on?     >>>> >     >>>> >          A dear person in Prague travelled to the small village     >>>> > near     >>>> > Karlsbad and     >>>> >          took pictures of the home plot, Poschitz #4, long gone     >>>> > except     >>>> > for flowers,     >>>> >          grasses and a well spot.     >>>> >     >>>> >          In my 70's now, it is still my ambition to travel there     >>>> > an see     >>>> > it for     >>>> >          myself. I will pick up two small stones, one for me and     >>>> > the     >>>> > other for his     >>>> >          grave marker.     >>>> >     >>>> >          Frank Heidl Slocum     >>>> >          Great grandson of Franz Josef Heidl     >>>> >     >>>> >          > /     >>>> >          >    Not many people are interested in serious     >>>> > historical     >>>> > and     >>>> > genealogical     >>>> >          > research.  Many people have a passing interest, but     >>>> > they don't     >>>> > get     >>>> >          > close to scholarly or detailed information.  They     >>>> > just     >>>> > want to     >>>> > punch a     >>>> >          > name in a computer database and get their genealogy     >>>> > back to     >>>> > Adam and     >>>> >          > Eve.     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          > ______     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          > Laurence     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >  ----- Original Message -----     >>>> >          >  From: Aida Kraus     >>>> >          >  To: Laurence Krupnak ; german-bohemian@rootsweb.com     >>>> >          >  Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 11:04 AM     >>>> >          >  Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re:     >>>> > expulsion     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >  As far as  genealogy is concerned, I must disagree,     >>>> > because     >>>> > ancestors     >>>> >          > can only be found in historical records.  Expulsion     >>>> > lists,     >>>> > court     >>>> >          > documents, witness reports, property records are all     >>>> > part of     >>>> > this and     >>>> >          > present valuable information material for     >>>> > genealogical     >>>> > research.  If     >>>> >          > you do not know  history, how can you possibly find     >>>> > your     >>>> > roots? The     >>>> >          > truth of history will eventually come out, no matter     >>>> > how long     >>>> > it takes.     >>>> >          > I will give you an example.  I had a friend who     >>>> > simply     >>>> > could     >>>> > not find a     >>>> >          > link to a family member.  The person she was looking     >>>> > for "did     >>>> > not     >>>> >          > exist".  Not in her family anyway. But she was     >>>> > tenacious. In     >>>> > the end she     >>>> >          > found out why he did not exist in any records of her     >>>> > family.     >>>> > ......     >>>> >          > because he was judged and hanged for a horse thief.     >>>> >          >        So, I guess,  we have to get our head around     >>>> > these     >>>> > "unpleasant     >>>> >          > surprises" in genealogy of which the aftermath of the     >>>> > second     >>>> > world     >>>> >          > war is just such a factor... and this NEVER seems to     >>>> > be     >>>> > a one     >>>> > sided     >>>> >          > deal, my friends!     >>>> >          >        It hits home, when a transgression highly     >>>> > censured is     >>>> > returned by     >>>> >          > just the same, and sometimes even worse crimes. It     >>>> > makes us     >>>> > look     >>>> >          > at ourselves of what we are at our worst while we     >>>> > know     >>>> > that we     >>>> >          > could be our best.  This feeling is called shame.     >>>> > Genocide is     >>>> >          > shame on all levels of humanity.  It is a pity that     >>>> > we     >>>> > will     >>>> > find     >>>> >          > it in our roots. And then it is best to KNOW YOUR     >>>> > HISTORY     >>>> >          >  Aida     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >  On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 7:11 AM, Laurence Krupnak     >>>> > <LKrupnak@verizon.net>     >>>> >          > wrote:     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >    /     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >    Hello Aida,     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >        Knowledge and data about the "afterwords"     >>>> > existed, but     >>>> > a small     >>>> >          > number of people read the literature. Not many people     >>>> > are     >>>> >          > interested in the past.     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >    _______     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >    Laurence     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >      ----- Original Message -----     >>>> >          >      From: Aida Kraus     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >      To: Laurence Krupnak ;     >>>> > german-bohemian@rootsweb.com     >>>> >          >      Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 9:52 AM     >>>> >          >      Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re:     >>>> > expulsion     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >      Oh yes, dear Lavrentiy, THAT is widely     >>>> > published     >>>> > in the     >>>> > Holocaust     >>>> >          > papers and many other documentation from the     >>>> > Nuremberg     >>>> > trials     >>>> > in a     >>>> >          > neverending supply of stories for the media.......     >>>> > but     >>>> > what     >>>> > came     >>>> >          > "afterwards" that is something that did not get into     >>>> > any press     >>>> > and     >>>> >          > was put under lock and key at Bonn for 50 years.  It     >>>> > is     >>>> > just     >>>> > now     >>>> >          > surfacing, as it should,  because this is also a part     >>>> > of     >>>> > history.     >>>> >          > Obviously the retaliation was equally fierce, if  not     >>>> > more so.     >>>> >          >      Aida     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >      On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 5:49 AM, Laurence     >>>> > Krupnak     >>>> >          > <LKrupnak@verizon.net> wrote:     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >        /     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >              Do data exist for the number of Germans     >>>> > who     >>>> > resided in the     >>>> >          > places     >>>> >          >        that you described who either joined or were     >>>> > conscripted in Nazi     >>>> >          >        military and they themselves committed     >>>> > attrocities?     >>>> > Any memoirs     >>>> >          > or     >>>> >          >        letters of admission or regret on what they     >>>> > or     >>>> > Germany     >>>> > did?     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >        _____     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >        Lavrentiy     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >        ----- Original Message -----     >>>> >          >        From: "Aida Kraus" <draytonharbor@gmail.com>     >>>> >          >        To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com>     >>>> >          >        Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2012 2:52 PM     >>>> >          >        Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] For Aida - re:     >>>> > expulsion     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >        > This is a witness report of people who have     >>>> > gone     >>>> > through the     >>>> >          > cruelty     >>>> >          >        > of     >>>> >          >        > expulsion from their homeland.  It is a     >>>> > document     >>>> > called     >>>> >          > "Whitebook"     >>>> >          >        > and     >>>> >          >        > contains legal witness records  kept in the     >>>> > files at     >>>> > Bonn by the     >>>> >          >        > German     >>>> >          >        > Government for 50 years under lock and key.     >>>> > However,     >>>> > they should     >>>> >          > have     >>>> >          >        > published it as part of truthful reporting     >>>> > of     >>>> > history after the     >>>> >          >        > homeless     >>>> >          >        > had declared their Charter. You will find     >>>> > that     >>>> > charter on the     >>>> >          > link     >>>> >          >        > listed     >>>> >          >        > below.  There were 14 to 16 Million of us     >>>> > Germans     >>>> > who have lost     >>>> >          > their     >>>> >          >        > homeland  after WW2. The numbers of     >>>> > expelled     >>>> > persons     >>>> > and their     >>>> >          > deaths     >>>> >          >        > have     >>>> >          >        > never been fully established. They were     >>>> > living for     >>>> > centuries (in     >>>> >          > some     >>>> >          >        > cases     >>>> >          >        > as natives) in countries which is now     >>>> > Poland,     >>>> > Lithuania,     >>>> >          > Estonia,     >>>> >          >        > Latvia,     >>>> >          >        > Ukraine, the different states of the former     >>>> > Yugoslavia,     >>>> >          > Czechoslovakia     >>>> >          >        > and     >>>> >          >        > others, and their deaths were caused by     >>>> > mass     >>>> > transports, mass     >>>> >          >        > executions,     >>>> >          >        > rapes and sadistic tortures between     >>>> > 1945-1947, up to     >>>> > two years     >>>> >          > after     >>>> >          >        > the     >>>> >          >        > war. Mass graves of these martyred people     >>>> > are     >>>> > found     >>>> > from time to     >>>> >          > time     >>>> >          >        > even     >>>> >          >        > now at construction excavations but     >>>> > creates     >>>> > just a     >>>> > minimum of     >>>> >          >        > publicity,     >>>> >          >        > because it was so horrendous that even the     >>>> > victims     >>>> > would rather     >>>> >          >        > forget.     >>>> >          >        >  Read the Charta at this page and notice     >>>> > the     >>>> > date of     >>>> > the     >>>> >          > Charter....     >>>> >          >        > just     >>>> >          >        > 5 years after the war when wound of our     >>>> > losses were     >>>> > still fresh:     >>>> >          >        >     >>>> > http://www.bund-der-vertriebenen.de/derbdv/charta-en.php3     >>>> >          >        > Aida     >>>> >          >        >     >>>> >          >        > On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 11:16 AM,     >>>> > <miscsearch@aol.com> wrote:     >>>> >          >        >     >>>> >          >        >> Aida,     >>>> >          >        >>     >>>> >          >        >> I found this while researching family     >>>> > members from     >>>> > Freiwaldau.     >>>> >          > What     >>>> >          >        >> is     >>>> >          >        >> your opinion of this.     >>>> >          >        >>     >>>> >          >        >>     >>>> >          >        >>     >>>> > http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/whitebook/desg00.html     >>>> >          >        >>     >>>> >          >        >> I've seen postings in the past regarding     >>>> > propaganda     >>>> > and would     >>>> >          > like to     >>>> >          >        >> know what's what. Thanks.     >>>> >          >        >>     >>>> >          >        >> Cathy     >>>> >          >        >>     >>>> >          >        >>     >>>> >          >        >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site     >>>> >          >        >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/     >>>> >          >        >> -------------------------------     >>>> >          >        >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send     >>>> > an     >>>> > email     >>>> > to     >>>> >          >        >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with     >>>> > the word     >>>> >          > 'unsubscribe'     >>>> >          >        >> without     >>>> >          >        >> the quotes in the subject and the body of     >>>> > the     >>>> > message     >>>> >          >        >>     >>>> >          >        > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site     >>>> >          >        > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/     >>>> >          >        > -------------------------------     >>>> >          >        > To unsubscribe from the list, please send     >>>> > an     >>>> > email     >>>> > to     >>>> >          >        > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with     >>>> > the     >>>> > word     >>>> > 'unsubscribe'     >>>> >          >        > without the quotes in the subject and the     >>>> > body of     >>>> > the message     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >        German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site     >>>> >          > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/     >>>> >          >        -------------------------------     >>>> >          >        To unsubscribe from the list, please send an     >>>> > email to     >>>> >          > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word     >>>> > 'unsubscribe'     >>>> >          > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the     >>>> > message     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >     >>>> >          >    German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site     >>>> >          > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/     >>>> >  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quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I might have used here a poor choice of words that could be mis-understood: this sentence in parenthesis "(and in retaliation against the Holocaust)" was meant to express that the transgressions against Germans were caused by the NAZI government causing the Holocaust. A better wording would have been (in perpetration of the Holocaust) Aida On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 12:03 PM, Aida Kraus <draytonharbor@gmail.com>wrote: > Brandt, you have to understand that the expulsion encompassed about 15-16 > million Germans from the Eastern regions, not just Czechoslovakia. The > subject are studies by various political historians. For a balance I have > posted articles from the Czech side as well. De Zaya's presentation is > below, but he does not study the Sudetengerman tragedy alone; he is a human > rights representative from Switzerland, and gives equal credit to other > ethnic groups, like the Armenians, for instance, and he is presently > researching human rights in Syria. He studies each ethnic group > individually and reports on his findings. Actually, you can find all this > when you browse "Expulsion of Sudetengermans" or "Expulsion of Germans > after WWII" and then you will get a wide variety of titles to choose > from. I do not like to publish on articles I read, I have no favorites I > merely study what everyone has to say. I have made my own experiences > during that time and I am an eyewitness to both sides of an ugly genocide. > In my ripe old age of 83 years, I am asking myself what motivates people to > behave that way, but then differences of opinions, worship, political views > and the exploitation of people is resulting in revolution again and again. > We only need to read the Bible to see that this was an ongoing process > where Isrealis fought the Egyptians, Jesus the Romans, Romans against > Celts, Vikings the world, Christians against Islam in the crusades, Islam > against Christians in the 16th and 17th century, Brits exploited the > Indians and Africans, the Spanish South America, Slavs against Teutons, and > Americans revolted against Britain - and all this caused horror, blood and > tears. History is a battlefield. > Churchill himself was horrified to hear reports as to what was > happening in the East after WWII, as an orderly and humane expulsion was > agreed upon. The other maligned group were the Donauschwaben, and if you > google this subject, you will get even more information. Many other > reports have not been translated to English. The Expellees reports are not > only a documentation of history, but more or less a criticism against the > German Government to have this no less important part of history (and in > retaliation against the Holocaust) swept under the carpet, while other > ethnic groups were given full press and compensation for THEIR part in > time. So they feel slighted and overlooked in the human rights process > and it is only fair to hear and evaluate both sides. > Here are some I have come across over the years for your perusal and this > one if from De Zaya.. > http://www.meaus.com/Expulsion_of_Germans.html > And here are a few others: > > ww.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?13374-Expelling-Germans-from-Czechoslovakia-1945-1946 > http://expelledgermans.org/sudetengermans.htm > From the Czech Side at Radio Prague > > http://www.radio.cz/en/section/special/memories-of-world-war-ii-in-the-czech-lands-the-expulsion-of-sudeten-germans > Another Essay from the Czech side > http://www.antiessays.com/free-essays/196991.html > One more from the Czech Press > > http://praguemonitor.com/2012/06/25/klaus-expulsion-sudeten-germans-after-wwii-was-logical-conclusion-tragic-period > Aida > > >

Brandt, you have to understand that the expulsion encompassed about 15-16 million Germans from the Eastern regions, not just Czechoslovakia. The subject are studies by various political historians. For a balance I have posted articles from the Czech side as well. De Zaya's presentation is below, but he does not study the Sudetengerman tragedy alone; he is a human rights representative from Switzerland, and gives equal credit to other ethnic groups, like the Armenians, for instance, and he is presently researching human rights in Syria. He studies each ethnic group individually and reports on his findings. Actually, you can find all this when you browse "Expulsion of Sudetengermans" or "Expulsion of Germans after WWII" and then you will get a wide variety of titles to choose from. I do not like to publish on articles I read, I have no favorites I merely study what everyone has to say. I have made my own experiences during that time and I am an eyewitness to both sides of an ugly genocide. In my ripe old age of 83 years, I am asking myself what motivates people to behave that way, but then differences of opinions, worship, political views and the exploitation of people is resulting in revolution again and again. We only need to read the Bible to see that this was an ongoing process where Isrealis fought the Egyptians, Jesus the Romans, Romans against Celts, Vikings the world, Christians against Islam in the crusades, Islam against Christians in the 16th and 17th century, Brits exploited the Indians and Africans, the Spanish South America, Slavs against Teutons, and Americans revolted against Britain - and all this caused horror, blood and tears. History is a battlefield. Churchill himself was horrified to hear reports as to what was happening in the East after WWII, as an orderly and humane expulsion was agreed upon. The other maligned group were the Donauschwaben, and if you google this subject, you will get even more information. Many other reports have not been translated to English. The Expellees reports are not only a documentation of history, but more or less a criticism against the German Government to have this no less important part of history (and in retaliation against the Holocaust) swept under the carpet, while other ethnic groups were given full press and compensation for THEIR part in time. So they feel slighted and overlooked in the human rights process and it is only fair to hear and evaluate both sides. Here are some I have come across over the years for your perusal and this one if from De Zaya.. http://www.meaus.com/Expulsion_of_Germans.html And here are a few others: ww.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?13374-Expelling-Germans-from-Czechoslovakia-1945-1946 http://expelledgermans.org/sudetengermans.htm >From the Czech Side at Radio Prague http://www.radio.cz/en/section/special/memories-of-world-war-ii-in-the-czech-lands-the-expulsion-of-sudeten-germans Another Essay from the Czech side http://www.antiessays.com/free-essays/196991.html One more from the Czech Press http://praguemonitor.com/2012/06/25/klaus-expulsion-sudeten-germans-after-wwii-was-logical-conclusion-tragic-period Aida