There may be maps in Heimat literature for Maehrisch Truebau. It will reflect the "most recent" numbers for each house. Write to one or more of the Heimat libraries in Germany and ask if there is a map of the city showing house numbers in any of the Heimat books. One Edress for a library is: Bibliothek@hdhbw.BWL.de It is OK to write in English and the reply will com in English if you do. Houses were originally numbered for central administration around 1770 but they were known by a number in manorial records predating that year. They were renumbered at least once but I don't recall when. Some numbers never changed, others did. What is important is to be sure that the map of house numbers you use shows the number at the time the ancestor lived in the house. If the ancestor left Moravia before 1880, be sure to tell the year to the librarian. There may be another source for a map of house numbers during that time. Karen

Dear Heinz, Thank you for your response on the house number 41. Is there any document that you know of that may show a layout of the village showing houses? Or would you suspect that all reference, not to mention homes, would have long been destroyed or at least rebuilt? I understand that Moravska Trebova is now a very large town in CR. Kind regards, Ray Klapka -----Original Message----- From: Heinz Hadwig <Heinz.Hadwig@inode.at> To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:12:04 +0100 Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Moravian House Numbers? Hello! Mahrisch Trubau is a village in Moravia. 41 is the number of a house in this village. Mahrisch is writen with two dots on the A! Trubau is writen with two dots on the U! The today name is *Moravska Trebova* Go to: http://www.jewishgen.org/ShtetlSeeker/LocTown.asp to see a map. Regards, Heinz (Hadwig) ------------------------ rtklapka@aol.com schrieb: > Dear List, > > I am researching my Grand parent's family and found my Grandfather on > a passenger list. His from address is given as " 41 Mahr. Trubau ". > Would this be a house number or street number or something else? The > ship departed Bremen on April 22, 1909. I am researching surnames; > Klapka and Menzl from Mahr. Trubau, Moravia. Thank you very much for > any help. > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the list? Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist.html and request an archive.

Dear List, I am researching my Grand parent's family and found my Grandfather on a passenger list. His from address is given as " 41 Mahr. Trubau ". Would this be a house number or street number or something else? The ship departed Bremen on April 22, 1909. I am researching surnames; Klapka and Menzl from Mahr. Trubau, Moravia. Thank you very much for any help.

Zamrsk is where the Church Registers are kept, the geographic maps are at Brno. Aida ----- Original Message ----- From: "Heinz Hadwig" <Heinz.Hadwig@inode.at> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 11:49 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Moravian House Numbers? > Hello! > > The responsible archiv is in Samrsk. > > Address*** > Státní oblastní archiv v Zámrsku** > Zámek** > CZ-565 43 Zámrsk* > Tel. +420-465 481 230, 465 481 202, > Fax: 465 481 201, > Email: soazam@raz-dva.cz <mailto:soazam@raz-dva.cz> > > They should have maps out of the land records. > Write an e-mail. > > Regards, Heinz > ---------------- > rtklapka@aol.com schrieb: > >> Dear Heinz, >> >> Thank you for your response on the house number 41. Is there any >> document that you know of that may show a layout of the village showing >> houses? Or would you suspect that all reference, not to mention homes, >> would have long been destroyed or at least rebuilt? I understand that >> Moravska Trebova is now a very large town in CR. >> >> Kind regards, Ray Klapka >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Heinz Hadwig <Heinz.Hadwig@inode.at> >> To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com >> Sent: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:12:04 +0100 >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Moravian House Numbers? >> >> Hello! >> >> Mahrisch Trubau is a village in Moravia. 41 is the >> number of a house in this village. >> >> Mahrisch is writen with two dots on the A! >> Trubau is writen with two dots on the U! >> >> The today name is *Moravska Trebova* >> >> Go to: >> http://www.jewishgen.org/ShtetlSeeker/LocTown.asp >> to see a map. >> >> Regards, Heinz (Hadwig) >> ------------------------ >> >> rtklapka@aol.com schrieb: >> >> > Dear List, >> > >> > I am researching my Grand parent's family and found my Grandfather on >> > a passenger list. His from address is given as " 41 Mahr. Trubau ". > >> Would this be a house number or street number or something else? The > >> ship departed Bremen on April 22, 1909. I am researching surnames; > >> Klapka and Menzl from Mahr. Trubau, Moravia. Thank you very much for > >> any help. >> > >> > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! >> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> > >> > >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >> list? >> Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist.html and request an >> archive. >> >> >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? >> Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >> >> > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? > Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist.html and request an > archive. >

For Moravian information go to the Library which was called the Landesbibliothek Maehren at Brno. Here is the Czech link Moravská zemská knihovna v Brne Kounicova 65a, 601 87 Brno tel. 541 646 111, fax. 541 646 100 e-mail: mzk@mzk.cz You may write to this Email and ask if there is an old city map of Moravska Trebova dated 1906 when your ancestors left the town. That they were living in House no. 41 and if they could help you with the location of the house and to let you know tif there are any charges for this service and how you can pay them. Aida ----- Original Message ----- From: <rtklapka@aol.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Moravian House Numbers? > Dear Heinz, > > Thank you for your response on the house number 41. Is there any document > that you know of that may show a layout of the village showing houses? Or > would you suspect that all reference, not to mention homes, would have > long been destroyed or at least rebuilt? I understand that Moravska > Trebova is now a very large town in CR. > > Kind regards, Ray Klapka > > -----Original Message----- > From: Heinz Hadwig <Heinz.Hadwig@inode.at> > To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:12:04 +0100 > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Moravian House Numbers? > > Hello! > > Mahrisch Trubau is a village in Moravia. 41 is the > number of a house in this village. > > Mahrisch is writen with two dots on the A! > Trubau is writen with two dots on the U! > > The today name is *Moravska Trebova* > > Go to: > http://www.jewishgen.org/ShtetlSeeker/LocTown.asp > to see a map. > > Regards, Heinz (Hadwig) > ------------------------ > > rtklapka@aol.com schrieb: > > > Dear List, > > > > I am researching my Grand parent's family and found my Grandfather on > > a passenger list. His from address is given as " 41 Mahr. Trubau ". > > Would this be a house number or street number or something else? The > > ship departed Bremen on April 22, 1909. I am researching surnames; > > Klapka and Menzl from Mahr. Trubau, Moravia. Thank you very much for > any > help. > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? > Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist.html and request an > archive. > > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? > Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >

Thank you, Aida; For another history lesson. Please keep up the good work, we all would love to learn more. Rosina ----- Original Message ----- From: aida kraus To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 8:27 AM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] The Premysl line I have finally found a good outline of the Premysl Families on the internet which I can now share with you. Aida Premyslid Dynasty, first Czech ruling house, founded, according to tradition, by the plowman Premysl, who was married to the princess Libuse. The members of the Premyslid dynasty ruled Bohemia and the lands associated with it from about 800 to 1306. The head of the Premyslid house was usually designated a prince, or duke (kníze), until 1198, when Premysl Otakar I raised Bohemia to the status of a hereditary kingdom within the Holy Roman Empire. Initially confirmed as duke of Bohemia in 1192 by the Holy Roman emperor Henry VI, Otakar was deposed the following year but subsequently regained possession of the fief of Bohemia in 1197. He obtained the title of king in 1198 and almost total autonomy for Bohemia from the emperor Philip of Swabia. His title was subsequently confirmed by the emperor Frederick II (1212), who thereby all but extinguished the control of the empire in Bohemian affairs. Otakar's reign thus established the basis of a strong Bohemian state, which was to reach the height of its power later in the 13th century. Historical records of the early Premyslid rulers are scanty. According to legend, Prince Borivoj is said to have been converted to Christianity by Saint Methodius (fl. mid-9th century). Bohemia was consolidated politically in the 10th century, and the best known of its rulers at this time was Borivoj's grandson Vaclav, whose zeal for spreading Christianity in his dominions prompted his murder by his pagan brother Boleslav I (reigned 929-967). Vaclav subsequently came to be venerated as the patron saint of Bohemia. During the rule of Boleslav II (967-999), the Christian church in Bohemia was organized and a bishopric was founded in Prague. Boleslav II's death was followed by a period of fratricidal warfare between his sons that terminated in 1012 when the youngest son, Oldrich, established himself as prince of Bohemia. Oldrich died in 1037 and was succeeded by his son Bretislav I (1037-55). For the next century and a half, disputes and feuds among the members of the Premyslid family hindered Bohemia's political development, the chief source of discord being the absence of any strict law of succession to the Bohemian throne. At some periods the principle of seniority was observed, while at other times the deceased prince's oldest son attained the throne. During this period of disarray Bohemia became increasingly dependent on the Holy Roman Empire to the west. The Premyslid prince Vratislav II (1061-92) obtained from the Holy Roman emperor Henry IV the title of king of Bohemia as a personal (i.e., nonhereditary) privilege, and Prince Vladislav II (1140-73) was awarded the royal crown on the same basis by Friedrich I. Barbarossa (1123-1190). In 1197 Premysl Otakar I became the undisputed overlord of the Premyslid domains, and in 1198 he was able to secure the royal title for his descendants as well as himself. Under Premysl Otakar I, medieval Bohemia reached the height of its economic prosperity and political prominence. Premysl was succeeded by King Vaclav I (1230-53) and the latter's son, Premysl Otakar II (1253-78), who was one of the greatest rulers of Bohemia. Premysl Otakar II died in battle in 1278 during one of his expansionist military campaigns and was succeeded by his son Vaclav II. That ruler's diplomatic dexterity and great wealth gained for him the crown of Poland in 1300, but he died prematurely in 1305. His only son, Vaclav III, inherited Bohemia but was assassinated in 1306 while traveling to Poland. Thus ended the long rule of the Premyslid dynasty in Bohemia. The Bohemian throne subsequently passed to John of Luxembourg, the founder of the Bohemian branch of the Luxembourg dynasty. ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/

I have finally found a good outline of the Premysl Families on the internet which I can now share with you. Aida Premyslid Dynasty, first Czech ruling house, founded, according to tradition, by the plowman Premysl, who was married to the princess Libuse. The members of the Premyslid dynasty ruled Bohemia and the lands associated with it from about 800 to 1306. The head of the Premyslid house was usually designated a prince, or duke (kníze), until 1198, when Premysl Otakar I raised Bohemia to the status of a hereditary kingdom within the Holy Roman Empire. Initially confirmed as duke of Bohemia in 1192 by the Holy Roman emperor Henry VI, Otakar was deposed the following year but subsequently regained possession of the fief of Bohemia in 1197. He obtained the title of king in 1198 and almost total autonomy for Bohemia from the emperor Philip of Swabia. His title was subsequently confirmed by the emperor Frederick II (1212), who thereby all but extinguished the control of the empire in Bohemian affairs. Otakar's reign thus established the basis of a strong Bohemian state, which was to reach the height of its power later in the 13th century. Historical records of the early Premyslid rulers are scanty. According to legend, Prince Borivoj is said to have been converted to Christianity by Saint Methodius (fl. mid-9th century). Bohemia was consolidated politically in the 10th century, and the best known of its rulers at this time was Borivoj's grandson Vaclav, whose zeal for spreading Christianity in his dominions prompted his murder by his pagan brother Boleslav I (reigned 929-967). Vaclav subsequently came to be venerated as the patron saint of Bohemia. During the rule of Boleslav II (967-999), the Christian church in Bohemia was organized and a bishopric was founded in Prague. Boleslav II's death was followed by a period of fratricidal warfare between his sons that terminated in 1012 when the youngest son, Oldrich, established himself as prince of Bohemia. Oldrich died in 1037 and was succeeded by his son Bretislav I (1037-55). For the next century and a half, disputes and feuds among the members of the Premyslid family hindered Bohemia's political development, the chief source of discord being the absence of any strict law of succession to the Bohemian throne. At some periods the principle of seniority was observed, while at other times the deceased prince's oldest son attained the throne. During this period of disarray Bohemia became increasingly dependent on the Holy Roman Empire to the west. The Premyslid prince Vratislav II (1061-92) obtained from the Holy Roman emperor Henry IV the title of king of Bohemia as a personal (i.e., nonhereditary) privilege, and Prince Vladislav II (1140-73) was awarded the royal crown on the same basis by Friedrich I. Barbarossa (1123-1190). In 1197 Premysl Otakar I became the undisputed overlord of the Premyslid domains, and in 1198 he was able to secure the royal title for his descendants as well as himself. Under Premysl Otakar I, medieval Bohemia reached the height of its economic prosperity and political prominence. Premysl was succeeded by King Vaclav I (1230-53) and the latter's son, Premysl Otakar II (1253-78), who was one of the greatest rulers of Bohemia. Premysl Otakar II died in battle in 1278 during one of his expansionist military campaigns and was succeeded by his son Vaclav II. That ruler's diplomatic dexterity and great wealth gained for him the crown of Poland in 1300, but he died prematurely in 1305. His only son, Vaclav III, inherited Bohemia but was assassinated in 1306 while traveling to Poland. Thus ended the long rule of the Premyslid dynasty in Bohemia. The Bohemian throne subsequently passed to John of Luxembourg, the founder of the Bohemian branch of the Luxembourg dynasty.

wow....that was SO COOL!! thank you for the history lesson!! Pam Frierdich-Staley Warrenton, MO http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com Looking for surnames of Michalek (Michael/eal), Schallom, Steppig, Mees, Reis, Frierdich, Bangert, Diesel, Hatter, Hoerter, Kiefer, Rapp, Mentel, Shellhorn, Staley, Weber, Thoele, Mitchell, Probst ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rosina Schmidt" <rosinats@telus.net> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 5:53 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Archaeology URL Wow, Aida; I am absolutely amazed over your historical knowledge. Delighted to 'know' you! Rosina ----- Original Message ----- From: aida kraus To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 9:59 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Archaeology URL Do I detect the belief that Karl IV started the city of Prague? Far from it!!! He rejuvenated a badly neglected town, however. History at our schools in Europe always taught that Prague was only a small step behind Charlemagne's Aachen. And how Karl IV became a "Czech" King defies reason. His father was Johann of Luxembourg, his mother was Elisabeth von Böhmen (1292-1330), the younger daughter of King Wenzel II married to Jutta of Habsburg, the daughter of King Rudolf 1. Karl IV's name was Wenzel, and he was educated at the court in France and there he received the name "Charles (Karl)" upon his knighthood (after his sponsor Charles, King of France. Karl IVs first marriage was to Blanche, daughter of the King of France. When Karl married her, his French was poor, her Czech non-existent, so they spoke German. She produced 2 daugthers and died. Karl IV was King of Luxembourg and Bohemia at the time when he married Anna von der Pfalz, a German, and she was quite a formidable lady. Unfortunately her child was deadborn and she herself died a few month after a very difficult birth. He then marries Anna von Schweidnitz, a Saxon girl, barely 14 years old. She was raised at the court in Hungary and was a tomboy with a nickname of Anoushka. She preferred to wear dirndls and saddled her own horse, whenever she felt like "getting away" from the formality of the court. Theirs was a most tender love affair. In 1353 Anoushka was crowned queen at Aachen (aged 16) in order to become the wife of an Emperor, or Empress, both were crowned a year later at Rome. Her firstborn is a girl, but a boy follows quickly and he was baptized Wenzel at Nuremberg (where he peed in a wide arch into the "German" baptismal font to the glee of all the Bohemian Czechs!) The baptismal at Nuremberg was important to show German affiliation. The crown Karl IV wore was the crown of "The Roman Emperor of the German Nations." At a visit to the castle at Elbogen, Egerland, Anoushka died eating poionous mushrooms she herself picked in the woods. He was utterly heartbroken! It was with coersion that Karl married Elisabeth of Poland and this is where the Slavic line comes in. She gives birth to two boys, Sigismund and Johann. Although Sigismund is baptized with the waters of the Moldau he will get the crown of the Emperor which was intended for Anoushka's Wenzel, who became King of Bohemia and Moravia, and Elisabeth of Poland's next son Johann becomes Duke of the Lausitz - Silesia.... eventually everything is "gobbled" up by the Austrian Habsburgs, the descendants of Rudolf I -- anyway "family".... oh yes, one bit of additional information ... Karl the IV allowed the Turkish community at Prague to build a mosque and a Muezzin called from the tower at the time for their prayers. The Jewish cemetery at Prague dates back to 800. In 1100 the Vikings traded there coming down from the Baltic, and the Venetians were arriving via the Brenner-pass across the alps to Innsbruck, Passau, Regensburg, Budweis to Prag and are still present in Bohemia with names like Castalio and Paoli. The openness of the Bohemian country to the East of Prague leads via Brünn to Vienna and to the Danube with ancient shipping going to the Black Sea. From there Turkish, probably Afghanistan, carpet merchants have been part of the Bohemian scene for centuries. A little deeper digging will help to find the polyglott masses that were present at Prague for centuries, but even during my childhood my homeland was an international and very interesting mish-mash. At the cafes or restaurants, on the street and in the homes of the residents several languages were spoken. Maybe someone else could report on a subject I am not too familiar with and that is the "Voelkerwanderung" and the appearance of the Slavs on the European continent around the 5th or 6th Century which was supposedly due to a "small ice age" that set people from the Siberian plains Westwards to seek a milder climatic conditions. Aida ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the list? Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist.html and request an archive.

There is a lot of stuff stored in my "gray matter" LOL...... and I did not think that I was all that attentive in school, why does it pop up now upon recall? Most of the time I am not even sure of it, and then I have to get reference material --- and voila, there it is with a few more embellishments I did not even know about. Like that Bohuslav killed Vaclav to get at the Bohemian Crown and the Premysl line always ending up "dead" on the mother side because they could not beget sons so grabbed the next best maids making them duchesses.... there are simply never any genealogical records available on these women!!! The farmer Premise himself who married supposedly a Czech Princess called Libusa is untraceable. Bohemia was a fief of Emperor Philip of Schwaben, who was the youngest son of Friedrich Barbarossa von Staufen with a genealogical background a mile long..... Since the Bohemian Forest was virgin forest and very thinly populated (remnants of Celts hiding from the Romans in 200 or 300 which is documented by - to this day visible - Keltenwaelle at Luditz in the Egerland) Philip gave up Bohemia to become its own Kingdom. So the Slavs just wedged themselves in there and now they are not even giving credit to the true history, turning the "Spiess" around and saying the Germans are immigrants in their home by invitation of Karl IV, while they were there all the time. They start their history with Wenzel I who has no genealogy at all and even less for his "mate" Drahomir von Stodor (that family does not even exist in documents) and from then on it is kill or get killed for getting on top, until Johann of Luxembourg brings some order into this mess. And the Czechs claim Karl IV as a Czech king - does he maybe have a drop of Premysl "royal peasant blood" at all? - That makes me mad! Here we are searching our records with diligence and they can just write history the way they "see fit".... Grrrrrrrrrrr! (Blowing off steam, and just to you, not the List - and thanks for the nice words, they smoothed out my ruffled feathers!) Aida ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rosina Schmidt" <rosinats@telus.net> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 3:53 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Archaeology URL > Wow, Aida; > > I am absolutely amazed over your historical knowledge. Delighted to 'know' > you! > > Rosina > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: aida kraus > To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com > Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 9:59 AM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Archaeology URL > > > Do I detect the belief that Karl IV started the city of Prague? Far from > it!!! He rejuvenated a badly neglected town, however. History at our > schools in Europe always taught that Prague was only a small step behind > Charlemagne's Aachen. And how Karl IV became a "Czech" King defies > reason. > His father was Johann of Luxembourg, his mother was Elisabeth von Böhmen > (1292-1330), the younger daughter of King Wenzel II married to Jutta of > Habsburg, the daughter of King Rudolf 1. Karl IV's name was Wenzel, and > he > was educated at the court in France and there he received the name > "Charles > (Karl)" upon his knighthood (after his sponsor Charles, King of France. > Karl IVs first marriage was to Blanche, daughter of the King of France. > When > Karl married her, his French was poor, her Czech non-existent, so they > spoke > German. She produced 2 daugthers and died. Karl IV was King of Luxembourg > and Bohemia at the time when he married Anna von der Pfalz, a German, and > she was quite a formidable lady. Unfortunately her child was deadborn and > she herself died a few month after a very difficult birth. He then > marries > Anna von Schweidnitz, a Saxon girl, barely 14 years old. She was raised > at > the court in Hungary and was a tomboy with a nickname of Anoushka. She > preferred to wear dirndls and saddled her own horse, whenever she felt > like > "getting away" from the formality of the court. Theirs was a most tender > love affair. In 1353 Anoushka was crowned queen at Aachen (aged 16) in > order to become the wife of an Emperor, or Empress, both were crowned a > year > later at Rome. Her firstborn is a girl, but a boy follows quickly and he > was baptized Wenzel at Nuremberg (where he peed in a wide arch into the > "German" baptismal font to the glee of all the Bohemian Czechs!) The > baptismal at Nuremberg was important to show German affiliation. The > crown > Karl IV wore was the crown of "The Roman Emperor of the German Nations." > At > a visit to the castle at Elbogen, Egerland, Anoushka died eating poionous > mushrooms she herself picked in the woods. He was utterly heartbroken! It > was with coersion that Karl married Elisabeth of Poland and this is where > the Slavic line comes in. She gives birth to two boys, Sigismund and > Johann. Although Sigismund is baptized with the waters of the Moldau he > will > get the crown of the Emperor which was intended for Anoushka's Wenzel, who > became King of Bohemia and Moravia, and Elisabeth of Poland's next son > Johann becomes Duke of the Lausitz - Silesia.... eventually everything is > "gobbled" up by the Austrian Habsburgs, the descendants of Rudolf I -- > anyway "family".... oh yes, one bit of additional information ... Karl > the > IV allowed the Turkish community at Prague to build a mosque and a Muezzin > called from the tower at the time for their prayers. > The Jewish cemetery at Prague dates back to 800. In 1100 the Vikings > traded there coming down from the Baltic, and the Venetians were arriving > via the Brenner-pass across the alps to Innsbruck, Passau, Regensburg, > Budweis to Prag and are still present in Bohemia with names like Castalio > and Paoli. The openness of the Bohemian country to the East of Prague > leads via Brünn to Vienna and to the Danube with ancient shipping going to > the Black Sea. From there Turkish, probably Afghanistan, carpet merchants > have been part of the Bohemian scene for centuries. A little deeper > digging > will help to find the polyglott masses that were present at Prague for > centuries, but even during my childhood my homeland was an international > and > very interesting mish-mash. At the cafes or restaurants, on the street > and > in the homes of the residents several languages were spoken. > Maybe someone else could report on a subject I am not too familiar with > and that is the "Voelkerwanderung" and the appearance of the Slavs on the > European continent around the 5th or 6th Century which was supposedly due > to > a "small ice age" that set people from the Siberian plains Westwards to > seek > a milder climatic conditions. > Aida > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? > Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? > Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist.html and request an > archive. >

Wow, Aida; I am absolutely amazed over your historical knowledge. Delighted to 'know' you! Rosina ----- Original Message ----- From: aida kraus To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 9:59 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Archaeology URL Do I detect the belief that Karl IV started the city of Prague? Far from it!!! He rejuvenated a badly neglected town, however. History at our schools in Europe always taught that Prague was only a small step behind Charlemagne's Aachen. And how Karl IV became a "Czech" King defies reason. His father was Johann of Luxembourg, his mother was Elisabeth von Böhmen (1292-1330), the younger daughter of King Wenzel II married to Jutta of Habsburg, the daughter of King Rudolf 1. Karl IV's name was Wenzel, and he was educated at the court in France and there he received the name "Charles (Karl)" upon his knighthood (after his sponsor Charles, King of France. Karl IVs first marriage was to Blanche, daughter of the King of France. When Karl married her, his French was poor, her Czech non-existent, so they spoke German. She produced 2 daugthers and died. Karl IV was King of Luxembourg and Bohemia at the time when he married Anna von der Pfalz, a German, and she was quite a formidable lady. Unfortunately her child was deadborn and she herself died a few month after a very difficult birth. He then marries Anna von Schweidnitz, a Saxon girl, barely 14 years old. She was raised at the court in Hungary and was a tomboy with a nickname of Anoushka. She preferred to wear dirndls and saddled her own horse, whenever she felt like "getting away" from the formality of the court. Theirs was a most tender love affair. In 1353 Anoushka was crowned queen at Aachen (aged 16) in order to become the wife of an Emperor, or Empress, both were crowned a year later at Rome. Her firstborn is a girl, but a boy follows quickly and he was baptized Wenzel at Nuremberg (where he peed in a wide arch into the "German" baptismal font to the glee of all the Bohemian Czechs!) The baptismal at Nuremberg was important to show German affiliation. The crown Karl IV wore was the crown of "The Roman Emperor of the German Nations." At a visit to the castle at Elbogen, Egerland, Anoushka died eating poionous mushrooms she herself picked in the woods. He was utterly heartbroken! It was with coersion that Karl married Elisabeth of Poland and this is where the Slavic line comes in. She gives birth to two boys, Sigismund and Johann. Although Sigismund is baptized with the waters of the Moldau he will get the crown of the Emperor which was intended for Anoushka's Wenzel, who became King of Bohemia and Moravia, and Elisabeth of Poland's next son Johann becomes Duke of the Lausitz - Silesia.... eventually everything is "gobbled" up by the Austrian Habsburgs, the descendants of Rudolf I -- anyway "family".... oh yes, one bit of additional information ... Karl the IV allowed the Turkish community at Prague to build a mosque and a Muezzin called from the tower at the time for their prayers. The Jewish cemetery at Prague dates back to 800. In 1100 the Vikings traded there coming down from the Baltic, and the Venetians were arriving via the Brenner-pass across the alps to Innsbruck, Passau, Regensburg, Budweis to Prag and are still present in Bohemia with names like Castalio and Paoli. The openness of the Bohemian country to the East of Prague leads via Brünn to Vienna and to the Danube with ancient shipping going to the Black Sea. From there Turkish, probably Afghanistan, carpet merchants have been part of the Bohemian scene for centuries. A little deeper digging will help to find the polyglott masses that were present at Prague for centuries, but even during my childhood my homeland was an international and very interesting mish-mash. At the cafes or restaurants, on the street and in the homes of the residents several languages were spoken. Maybe someone else could report on a subject I am not too familiar with and that is the "Voelkerwanderung" and the appearance of the Slavs on the European continent around the 5th or 6th Century which was supposedly due to a "small ice age" that set people from the Siberian plains Westwards to seek a milder climatic conditions. Aida ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html

There is an article related to Susie Perkins Email at: http://www.archaeology.org/0511/abstracts/prague.html Karen

Do I detect the belief that Karl IV started the city of Prague? Far from it!!! He rejuvenated a badly neglected town, however. History at our schools in Europe always taught that Prague was only a small step behind Charlemagne's Aachen. And how Karl IV became a "Czech" King defies reason. His father was Johann of Luxembourg, his mother was Elisabeth von Böhmen (1292-1330), the younger daughter of King Wenzel II married to Jutta of Habsburg, the daughter of King Rudolf 1. Karl IV's name was Wenzel, and he was educated at the court in France and there he received the name "Charles (Karl)" upon his knighthood (after his sponsor Charles, King of France. Karl IVs first marriage was to Blanche, daughter of the King of France. When Karl married her, his French was poor, her Czech non-existent, so they spoke German. She produced 2 daugthers and died. Karl IV was King of Luxembourg and Bohemia at the time when he married Anna von der Pfalz, a German, and she was quite a formidable lady. Unfortunately her child was deadborn and she herself died a few month after a very difficult birth. He then marries Anna von Schweidnitz, a Saxon girl, barely 14 years old. She was raised at the court in Hungary and was a tomboy with a nickname of Anoushka. She preferred to wear dirndls and saddled her own horse, whenever she felt like "getting away" from the formality of the court. Theirs was a most tender love affair. In 1353 Anoushka was crowned queen at Aachen (aged 16) in order to become the wife of an Emperor, or Empress, both were crowned a year later at Rome. Her firstborn is a girl, but a boy follows quickly and he was baptized Wenzel at Nuremberg (where he peed in a wide arch into the "German" baptismal font to the glee of all the Bohemian Czechs!) The baptismal at Nuremberg was important to show German affiliation. The crown Karl IV wore was the crown of "The Roman Emperor of the German Nations." At a visit to the castle at Elbogen, Egerland, Anoushka died eating poionous mushrooms she herself picked in the woods. He was utterly heartbroken! It was with coersion that Karl married Elisabeth of Poland and this is where the Slavic line comes in. She gives birth to two boys, Sigismund and Johann. Although Sigismund is baptized with the waters of the Moldau he will get the crown of the Emperor which was intended for Anoushka's Wenzel, who became King of Bohemia and Moravia, and Elisabeth of Poland's next son Johann becomes Duke of the Lausitz - Silesia.... eventually everything is "gobbled" up by the Austrian Habsburgs, the descendants of Rudolf I -- anyway "family".... oh yes, one bit of additional information ... Karl the IV allowed the Turkish community at Prague to build a mosque and a Muezzin called from the tower at the time for their prayers. The Jewish cemetery at Prague dates back to 800. In 1100 the Vikings traded there coming down from the Baltic, and the Venetians were arriving via the Brenner-pass across the alps to Innsbruck, Passau, Regensburg, Budweis to Prag and are still present in Bohemia with names like Castalio and Paoli. The openness of the Bohemian country to the East of Prague leads via Brünn to Vienna and to the Danube with ancient shipping going to the Black Sea. From there Turkish, probably Afghanistan, carpet merchants have been part of the Bohemian scene for centuries. A little deeper digging will help to find the polyglott masses that were present at Prague for centuries, but even during my childhood my homeland was an international and very interesting mish-mash. At the cafes or restaurants, on the street and in the homes of the residents several languages were spoken. Maybe someone else could report on a subject I am not too familiar with and that is the "Voelkerwanderung" and the appearance of the Slavs on the European continent around the 5th or 6th Century which was supposedly due to a "small ice age" that set people from the Siberian plains Westwards to seek a milder climatic conditions. Aida

For the viewers that have not read a copy of the November/December 2005 issue of "Archaeology" there is a great article with pictures of "Under Downtown Prague" by Nick Holdsworth. In part "But fascinating new finds from a rescue dig on the three and-a-half acre site of a new shopping and office complex in downtown Prague are offering a different take on this historical chestnut. Evidence is emerging that proves Prague had a thriving--and wealthy--suburb beyond it early limits 150 years before Charles {IV} took on the mantle of master developer." Susie Perkins Waco, Texas

Translation: "Heute ist ein Tag, der mit Zauber erfüllt ist. Hole tief Atem und lass Deinen Wünschen freien Lauf." >Today is a day filled with magic. Take a deep breath and set all your wishes >free. > >Cathy > > >==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? >Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >

Could someone translate the following into German? I couldn't find a German birthday card, so I'd at least like to write a translation in the English one. Thanks. (The card has a photo of a dandelion gone to seed, ready to blow and make a wish. The verse doesn't make sense without knowing the context.) Today is a day filled with magic. Take a deep breath and set all your wishes free. Cathy

I've had more responses saying "city offficial " than shephard, so I'm going with that. Thanks...Millie

Great to have so many respond with that meaning. I think I can be safe in saying "city official" or something. Thanks...Millie

Hello Errol, Provide an image of the ship passenger manifest record. ________ Lavrentiy Krupniak ESLVIV@aol.com wrote: > > Hi, > I was re-looking at a ship manifest that had my Great-grandmothers and her > Daughters trip to America back in 1901. They never stayed here. > > In the column labeled number there was a handwritten notation of some kind. > It is the letter "S" and something that looks like a diamond with the lower > right portion of the diamond missing. This did not look like an omission but > a symbol of some kind. I saw it further down the page again but the diamond > was a bit on its side still missing the lower right line that would have > completed the diamond shape. > > It was hard to line up the last column with the first so I am not sure if > the > notation is for the child or not but it had a completed diamond and appears > to read "defru (defiu) Boil none". Diamonds may have been used in place of > asterisks. > > Any ideas what this is all about. > > Thanks > Errol Schneegurt ESLVIV@AOL.COM LI NY

Thank you, Aida for the wonderful, sometimes sad, stories you tell. I will print them and tuck them away. You should write your memories; they paint a vivid picture. Susan aida kraus <akibb1@verizon.net> wrote: Susan, it probably sat there all this time, but don't worry, we are all working on different lines of our family simultaneously and usually pursue the ones that are easiest to trace, and then we turn back to the things we had put "on hold" - Since 2003, I myself have learned a lot of the "old times" and the more experienced you get the more you can help others and this is what this List is for. You contributed an extremely valuable portion on the Ittners for Chris. Thank you! Aida ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Karides" To: Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Name ITTNER > Chris, > > From "Aus dem Egerland...Falkenau Stadt und Land" (Josef Fritsch 1983), > pp 540-542 (Section on Oberneugruen), listing of houses and owners as of > 1946 (listings include House Number, Housename, Owner and his occupation, > number of family members living there, number if any of renters or other > nonfamily/non "immediate family" members residing there; size of "lot") > lists the following: > > > House Number 22, housename "Modlbauer(n)"; owner ERNST ITTNER; 4 family > members living there; 16 ha (size of land; not sure on the equivalent > measurement); Occupation: "Landwirt". > > House Number 23, housename "Schousta"; owner FRANZ ITTNER; 4 family > members living there; 1 ha and 23 a (again, I don't know equivalent); also > living there is ITTNER, KARL (retired with 2 of his family members also > residing); Franz's occupation is "Bergmann". > > House Number 28; housename "Schousta-Franz"; owner FRANZ ITTNER; 4 family > members living there; 10 a; he is retired ("Rentner") > > House Number 44; house name "Fleischer"; JOHANN ITTNER; 3 family members > residing; 3 a; he is a Fleischer. > > Finally, residing in the home owned by Karl Duerrschmidt, is listed the > "Rentnerin" BERTA ITTNER. > > Aida or another can likely translate the housenames, as some are in the > dialect (I believe "Schousta" is "Shuster" or shoemaker and Fleischer a > butcher, but I won't attempt the other!) and, perhaps the land size > equivalents. I believe this list is just before or at the time of the > expulsion, as this book indicates that after it almost the entire village > was destroyed (a couple houses still exisiting at the time this book was > written in 1983). > > Ironically, when I went to this section of the book, I found folded inside > a copy of one of your postings about Ittners in Oberneugruen from March > 2003. Did I give you this info before, or did it sit here for that long? I > apologize if that is the case! > > Some other surnames listed: > Lenz/ Heier/ Pleier/ Lorenz/ Scheitler/ Saettler/ Schug/ Doberauer/ > Wettengl/ Duerrschmidt/ Hoier/ Hoyer/ Zuleger/ Dutz/ Hueller/ Loessl/ > Weiss/Schicke/ Moertl (these last 3 only 1 listing; Schicke is the > teacher and Moertl is retired and living with a Lorenz). > > There are multiple listings for the first 15 of these surnames (out of > only 53 houses), indicating some length of time in Oberneugruen for these > families. > > Susan > > aida kraus wrote: > Chris the name of the village is Neugrün, u with umlaut. Grün means green. > Neu is new. You will find clusters of suffixes in the Egerland. I believe > you are looking for the Neugruen in the Falkenau District of the Egerland > toward the Ore Mountains. There is Heinrichsgruen (you can spell it ue as > well instead of using the umlaut over the u =ü) and several other > "-gruens" > So much for the locality. As to Ittner which is as typical Egerlander name > as you will find. Your people were "entrenched" and this name would be an > ancient one. > In my Name Lexicon it is listed as Ittensun 1300, Idenson 1375 and > Ittner at Nuernberg and Muenchen. This name is much older than that, > because Ittensohn means "the son of Itta (Ida)" which is the Goddess > Ithuna..... it dates back to pagan times. Ittner people worshipped Ithuna, > a Germanic the Goddess of Family, Health, Love, Youth. She might have a > "sister" in the old Norse Sagas as "Freya", and older version may be > Demeter > or Chloris in Greek, but since I am writing this on the "top of my head" I > cannot for the world remember the Roman equivalent. Was it Juventa? Is > there some help on this out there? > But anyway, your ancestors lived there during the earliest times, long > before the Bohemian Kings invited German craftsmen to settle in the land. > Your family are "natives" for sure, like my husbands line the Egerers. > That > they lived so close to the mountains is another clue, because the springs > which were sacred by promising health and youth bubble out of the > Ore-mountains where pagan worshippers of the goddess Ithuna must have > lived. > The name of the place "Neugruen" ( the sprouting of new life) is another > clue for a very old place sacred to the pagan goddess Ithuna. > Go to this website given below, it is in English, and describes the > present > location. You should not have any problems to find your family in the > Berni > Rula of 1651, which is probably the oldest record presently available by > not > going to the archives. The Egerland was overrun by Swedes in the 30 year > wars and most all of the churches were burned, so I doubt if you can go > much > farther than what is listed in the Berni Rula which available by > Interlibrary loan. You may not be able to remove the tomes from the > premises, but you can use their copying machine to make copies of the > Ittners who were there, and I am sure they will show up as property, house > or land owners. > Here is reference as to the area, it is in English Aida > http://home.xnet.com/~ugeiser/Genealogy/Bohemia/falkenau.html > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 12:56 PM > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Name ITTNER > > >> Hi, >> Would anyone have any information on the name ITTNER or perhaps know >> anyone from the Ober Neugrun area. I believe it was located in the >> Egerland region but I may be wrong. The family lived there for a couple >> hundred years. I've had no luck locating the meaning of the name or >> anyone from that area. >> Help would be appreciated, >> Chris >> >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? > Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? > Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html

Susan, it probably sat there all this time, but don't worry, we are all working on different lines of our family simultaneously and usually pursue the ones that are easiest to trace, and then we turn back to the things we had put "on hold" - Since 2003, I myself have learned a lot of the "old times" and the more experienced you get the more you can help others and this is what this List is for. You contributed an extremely valuable portion on the Ittners for Chris. Thank you! Aida ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Karides" <karides@sbcglobal.net> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Name ITTNER > Chris, > > From "Aus dem Egerland...Falkenau Stadt und Land" (Josef Fritsch 1983), > pp 540-542 (Section on Oberneugruen), listing of houses and owners as of > 1946 (listings include House Number, Housename, Owner and his occupation, > number of family members living there, number if any of renters or other > nonfamily/non "immediate family" members residing there; size of "lot") > lists the following: > > > House Number 22, housename "Modlbauer(n)"; owner ERNST ITTNER; 4 family > members living there; 16 ha (size of land; not sure on the equivalent > measurement); Occupation: "Landwirt". > > House Number 23, housename "Schousta"; owner FRANZ ITTNER; 4 family > members living there; 1 ha and 23 a (again, I don't know equivalent); also > living there is ITTNER, KARL (retired with 2 of his family members also > residing); Franz's occupation is "Bergmann". > > House Number 28; housename "Schousta-Franz"; owner FRANZ ITTNER; 4 family > members living there; 10 a; he is retired ("Rentner") > > House Number 44; house name "Fleischer"; JOHANN ITTNER; 3 family members > residing; 3 a; he is a Fleischer. > > Finally, residing in the home owned by Karl Duerrschmidt, is listed the > "Rentnerin" BERTA ITTNER. > > Aida or another can likely translate the housenames, as some are in the > dialect (I believe "Schousta" is "Shuster" or shoemaker and Fleischer a > butcher, but I won't attempt the other!) and, perhaps the land size > equivalents. I believe this list is just before or at the time of the > expulsion, as this book indicates that after it almost the entire village > was destroyed (a couple houses still exisiting at the time this book was > written in 1983). > > Ironically, when I went to this section of the book, I found folded inside > a copy of one of your postings about Ittners in Oberneugruen from March > 2003. Did I give you this info before, or did it sit here for that long? I > apologize if that is the case! > > Some other surnames listed: > Lenz/ Heier/ Pleier/ Lorenz/ Scheitler/ Saettler/ Schug/ Doberauer/ > Wettengl/ Duerrschmidt/ Hoier/ Hoyer/ Zuleger/ Dutz/ Hueller/ Loessl/ > Weiss/Schicke/ Moertl (these last 3 only 1 listing; Schicke is the > teacher and Moertl is retired and living with a Lorenz). > > There are multiple listings for the first 15 of these surnames (out of > only 53 houses), indicating some length of time in Oberneugruen for these > families. > > Susan > > aida kraus <akibb1@verizon.net> wrote: > Chris the name of the village is Neugrün, u with umlaut. Grün means green. > Neu is new. You will find clusters of suffixes in the Egerland. I believe > you are looking for the Neugruen in the Falkenau District of the Egerland > toward the Ore Mountains. There is Heinrichsgruen (you can spell it ue as > well instead of using the umlaut over the u =ü) and several other > "-gruens" > So much for the locality. As to Ittner which is as typical Egerlander name > as you will find. Your people were "entrenched" and this name would be an > ancient one. > In my Name Lexicon it is listed as Ittensun 1300, Idenson 1375 and > Ittner at Nuernberg and Muenchen. This name is much older than that, > because Ittensohn means "the son of Itta (Ida)" which is the Goddess > Ithuna..... it dates back to pagan times. Ittner people worshipped Ithuna, > a Germanic the Goddess of Family, Health, Love, Youth. She might have a > "sister" in the old Norse Sagas as "Freya", and older version may be > Demeter > or Chloris in Greek, but since I am writing this on the "top of my head" I > cannot for the world remember the Roman equivalent. Was it Juventa? Is > there some help on this out there? > But anyway, your ancestors lived there during the earliest times, long > before the Bohemian Kings invited German craftsmen to settle in the land. > Your family are "natives" for sure, like my husbands line the Egerers. > That > they lived so close to the mountains is another clue, because the springs > which were sacred by promising health and youth bubble out of the > Ore-mountains where pagan worshippers of the goddess Ithuna must have > lived. > The name of the place "Neugruen" ( the sprouting of new life) is another > clue for a very old place sacred to the pagan goddess Ithuna. > Go to this website given below, it is in English, and describes the > present > location. You should not have any problems to find your family in the > Berni > Rula of 1651, which is probably the oldest record presently available by > not > going to the archives. The Egerland was overrun by Swedes in the 30 year > wars and most all of the churches were burned, so I doubt if you can go > much > farther than what is listed in the Berni Rula which available by > Interlibrary loan. You may not be able to remove the tomes from the > premises, but you can use their copying machine to make copies of the > Ittners who were there, and I am sure they will show up as property, house > or land owners. > Here is reference as to the area, it is in English Aida > http://home.xnet.com/~ugeiser/Genealogy/Bohemia/falkenau.html > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 12:56 PM > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Name ITTNER > > >> Hi, >> Would anyone have any information on the name ITTNER or perhaps know >> anyone from the Ober Neugrun area. I believe it was located in the >> Egerland region but I may be wrong. The family lived there for a couple >> hundred years. I've had no luck locating the meaning of the name or >> anyone from that area. >> Help would be appreciated, >> Chris >> >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? > Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? > Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >