It looks to me that they might want to force genealogy to function as a "business" so that these studies can be handled by professional genealogists only. And in a way, I am not surprised, because a lot of "messy records" have been entered in the LDS files; I found some of my own family converging with another. We compared sources, analyzed and corrected this. Some people are more accurate than others, and the key factor here is, that the archives are responsible that only documented records are added. In the past, you had to make your data input at the Family Research Center while a representative was sitting next to you to verify each individual input. Now you can do it at home on a disc, and either send it to the LDS or submit it via the Family Research Center and as long as it has a Registration number from a church or office, it is accepted. Some entries are accepted without source numbers- even - when they calculate the last documented person's parents, for instance. Therefore, with the computer age and submission of information "canned on a disc," anyone can "compose" to their heart's content or to their logic --- but this is NEITHER LEGAL NOR IS THIS the purpose of Genealogy. It is for this pupose we are coming here together to help one another to find the location where these legal records are stored and how to get at them. Never forget that finding a record is a legal procedure, and don't take this lightly! What you enter has to be proven by a source document! PERIOD! If you don't have it, don't do it! I can only guess that a lot of professional Genealogist using the LDS and other archives have suddenly found a lot of unreliable records and are horrified what the computer age has done to it..... and they see no other way but putting a stop to its access. Of course this, in turn, hurts our own searches. But the fact is this: our own sloppiness will close access and if it comes to that, we have only to blame ourselves for it. To become a professional genealogist is a study in itself, and our self-made studies can lead easily into the wrong direction. The supporting genealogical computer programs available on the market tend to make us feel like "I can do this"....but there are still areas where a consultation is of prime importance. It is different if you do genealogy just for your own family and publish on a closed website. but I feel that even there it should carry a stipulation that the user does so "at his own risk," with a notation as to "not all records are verified." NEVER EVER send genealogy information to the archives that is not supported by a legal source. In my own case, I do not have every single ancestor "documented" and, therefore, I have not yet made data-input to any archives, LDS included. However, in sharing information on the internet and by Email, I can see that others have taken some of the information I have exchanged with them, entered them on their charts "as is" (while I was still waiting for verification) and just forwarded the "unfinished" information into the archives without any "proof." This is certainly VERY BAD because archival information should hold up to legal records. Be careful and accurate with your research, write down the sources of your information, especially if it is from a church register, a Social Security List, Shipslist or Ellis Island Entry - YOU HAVE GOT TO GIVE YOUR RECORDS A SOURCE OR IT IS NOT VALID. Write down the date, the Volume or Tomus Number (mostly Roman numerals) and the page number (Arabic) and have it verified by a second person. With the easy access to information via your computer, Genealogy has become a "hobby" and a past time.... but NEVER EVER FORGET that - in reality - you are working with legal records! This deserves respect, accuracy and a support document is always needed for every name and date!!!! If you do not have it, do not publish it.....until you do! I think this is the only way we will be able to retain our privilege to archival records. Aida page number----- Original Message ----- From: <KarenHob@aol.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 12:30 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] (no subject) > In a message dated 11/4/2005 5:28:00 PM Mountain Standard Time, > akibb1@verizon.net writes: > This seems to me almost unworkable. > I agree with Aida. In general it is unworkable unless one of us would > write > to Sweden for records of German-bohemians who settled there. I don't > know > how one would get those records otherwise. > > That is when the research would probably hit a wall be cause the Swedish > authorities would probably have to demand that all the required > permissions be > presenjted. > > I can imagine one scenario for a family of German-Bohemian ancestry who > were > the only surviving representatives of two G-B families and who fled to > Sweden > during the war. Assume that there may have been only one son born in > the > first generation and he had only one son with a woman who was an only > daughter > of other G-B immigrants.. The woman had no living relatives when she > married > . When the two of them died their only daughter went to the US. > > The daughter's only child now wants a marriage and death record of the > grandparents and she must furnish "permission" from living relatives > (there are none > in the U.S. and if there are any in Germany they are unknown). > > What proof can Sweden possibly demand that there are no living relatives? > How can they verify whatever is presented as authentic.? > > If someone publishes an Internet website just for family members with the > password, how will Sweden know what it on it? For that matter how will > they > know what is out there at all -- are they going to have experts who surf > constantly looking for offenders who have published Swedish surnames > without the > permissions required? And then what can they do about it if the offender > is not a > Swedish citizen?? > > I suspect that the worst case scenario will be that the LDS respects the > Swedish law and will not release any Swedish records without some sort of > documentation related to necessary permission. > > They have found a way to deal with privacy laws in Eastern Europe that > impede > research and so have many of the EE archivists. Access is not denied at > SLC > as long as a researcher signs a certain "permission form". > > However the LDS will not circulate any filmed records that contain ANY > documents dated earlier than 100 years old for many EE lands. > > This affects a lot of Austrian military records among others - they can > only > be viewed in SLC. But there are provisions for SLC professionals to > look > at them for a client. Some of these pros charge a "single item fee" of > $100. > That can be cheap compared to the cost of a trip to SLC.. > > Karen > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? > Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist.html and request an > archive. >

I had family in Dubi/Eichwald - the Prokupek family of mine. Ferdinand Prokupek was the father of Barbara Krämer, but by then he had relocated within the USA and the family would move over in 1904. Karolina Prokupek, was Ferdinand's sister. Ferdinand's brother, Karl Prokupek, was the Police Chief for Bilin in the early 1920s. Here is the material on the Krämer/Prokupek family that moved to Dubi/Eichwald by the later 1870s. Would love to share information or even if someone could show me on a map what part of Eichwald this might be. Rod Fleck Forks, WA Barbara Krämer, was born the 3rd and baptize the 5th of September 1901 in Eichwald (Dubí) no. 221 /catholic, illegitimate/ /parish book 128/41, page 278/ Vater: ---------- Mutter: Francisca Krämer in Eichwald, eheliche Tochter des Anton Krämer, Pächterman in Pamferhütte N. 14 und der Margaretha geborne Zellner aus Eisenstein (3/2 1879) Lev: Karolina Prokupek, Eichwald Testes: Katharina Scheiner, Eichwald Father: unknown Mother: Francisca Krämer of Eichwald (Dubí), the matrimonial daughter of Anton Krämer, renter in Pamferhütte (Pamferova Hut) no. 14 and Margaretha née Zellner of Eisenstein (Francisca was born 3. 2. 1879) Godmother: Karolina Prokupek, Eichwald Witness: Katharina Scheiner, Eichwald .

Hi karen, How can this be right (as in "just" not "correct")? After all, the family trees of royalty have been a matter of public scrutiny for up to a thousand years...else they'd have no claim atall. But more than that, how can all the descendants ever be traced enough TO say anything? But also, the ethnic origin of our ancestors is very important to many of us, and in some families, there have been too many secrets kept too long, such as Native ancestry. the truth has implications that matter. Is there more information on this? love Willow Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: <KarenHob@aol.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 9:56 AM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] (no subject) > Found at: http://eogn.typepad.com/ > Online Family Trees "Break Personal Data Law" > Genealogists' free exchange of family history information over the > internet > could be in breach of Sweden's personal data act, according to the > country's > Board of Data Inspection (DI).If the details being shared refer to the > race or > ethnic origin of a person in the 18th century, all living descendants must > give > their consent before any information is made public. > Continue reading "Online Family Trees "Break Personal Data Law"" » > Posted by Dick Eastman on November 03, 2005 | Permalink | Comments (1) > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >

I normally don't put my two cents worth (opinion) into topics on this site, but this is an exception. I was totally shocked when I read the article at the end of this email. Instead of writing a whole thesis, I will just write a few phrases. Citizens are required to have their DNA on file -- WHY?? Is it to make sure there is a pure Sweden -- reminds me of another time in history -- very scarry!!! Personal informaiton made available to anyone -- scarry!!! A crime to show the origin of an ancestor without first contacting a living relative -- sounds like someone in authority or with lots of money is afraid their own ethnicity will be found out. Is there anything the citizens of Sweden can do about this law and other rights that are being taken away from them? Regards, Mary -------------- Original message-------------- > In a message dated 11/4/2005 4:24:59 PM Mountain Standard Time, > willowa@nor.com.au writes: > Is there more information on this? > > > I am afraid that various versions of privacy laws are going to make > genealogical ressearch more and more difficult in the future. > > This is one example where an impossible standard is set IMO and it IS hard to > belive this could be true. > I cannot imagine why anyone feels it is necessary. > > For the descendants of German-Bohemias who settled in Sweden in an effort to > escape Hitler, this means that there can be no more on line family trees if it > is taken seriously.. > > How they plan to monitor that or prosecute non-Swedes who violate that law is > beyond me. > > > :Look at Sweden's news in English at: > > > http://www.thelocal.se/article.php?ID=2423&date=20051104 > Editorial: No privacy, no integrity > Swedish genealogists have taken a beating this week, after they were told > that disclosing the ethnic origins of their ancestors was against the law - > unless they had got the OK from all living descendants of that ancestor. > > Yet information about the salaries of every Swedish resident, their personal > numbers, addresses and details of their relatives are open for public > inspection. What is going on with Swedish privacy laws? > > The august organ to issue the diktat against people researching their family > trees was the Swedish Board of Data Protection, which is supposed to protect > people’s privacy. > > Given that the rule requires people to get permission from all descendants of > ancestors from as long ago as the eighteenth century, it is fairly certain > that this means contacting more distant cousins than are on even a > genealogist’s > Christmas card list. > > Naturally, it’s important that personal integrity is taken seriously, > although how the ethnicity of someone alive 200 years ago can have any bearing > on > someone alive today is hard to fathom. > > Indeed, this over-zealous protection of one sort of privacy is in stark > contrast to what, to a foreigner anyway, is a frightening lack of privacy in > day-to-day life in Sweden. > > Go and hire a movie, and you’ll see what I mean. The assistant will ask for > your national ID card, will then scan it over a barcode reader, and will then > know where you live, have a record of your personal number and would, if they > wanted, be able to go to the tax office and find out how much you earned last > year. > > But that's Sweden - where robbers can do their research over the phone with > the help of the authorities before picking their prey. > > In addition, the DNA of every child born in Sweden is held in a massive > national DNA bank. Don’t get me wrong, this is a good idea, and the DNA bank > is > subject to stringent regulation. But surely there's a serious imbalance when the > state is allowed to log people’s genetic makeup while the people themselves > are not even allowed to discuss their own genes online. > > Another example of the confusion in this whole privacy business is security > cameras. > > The police are slammed for not clearing up enough crimes and the tabloids > spread fear of rape, murder and drug dealing - yet any suggestion that companies > or local authorities should be allowed to use security cameras is usually met > with a chorus of disapproval. > > "It's a breach of personal integrity!" cry the critics, inexplicably > forgetting the important roles security cameras play both in crime prevention > and > crime solving. > > This random application of privacy laws, where ethnicity is private and > personal finances are not, where privacy concerns outweigh personal safety, > undermines the whole point of such regulations: preventing personal information > from > being used to harm the innocent individual. > > Surely it’s time to put a bit of integrity back into the personal integrity > laws? > > Discuss this topic! > James Savage > > Karem > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >

In a message dated 11/4/2005 4:24:59 PM Mountain Standard Time, willowa@nor.com.au writes: Is there more information on this? I am afraid that various versions of privacy laws are going to make genealogical ressearch more and more difficult in the future. This is one example where an impossible standard is set IMO and it IS hard to belive this could be true. I cannot imagine why anyone feels it is necessary. For the descendants of German-Bohemias who settled in Sweden in an effort to escape Hitler, this means that there can be no more on line family trees if it is taken seriously.. How they plan to monitor that or prosecute non-Swedes who violate that law is beyond me. :Look at Sweden's news in English at: http://www.thelocal.se/article.php?ID=2423&date=20051104 Editorial: No privacy, no integrity Swedish genealogists have taken a beating this week, after they were told that disclosing the ethnic origins of their ancestors was against the law - unless they had got the OK from all living descendants of that ancestor. Yet information about the salaries of every Swedish resident, their personal numbers, addresses and details of their relatives are open for public inspection. What is going on with Swedish privacy laws? The august organ to issue the diktat against people researching their family trees was the Swedish Board of Data Protection, which is supposed to protect people’s privacy. Given that the rule requires people to get permission from all descendants of ancestors from as long ago as the eighteenth century, it is fairly certain that this means contacting more distant cousins than are on even a genealogist’s Christmas card list. Naturally, it’s important that personal integrity is taken seriously, although how the ethnicity of someone alive 200 years ago can have any bearing on someone alive today is hard to fathom. Indeed, this over-zealous protection of one sort of privacy is in stark contrast to what, to a foreigner anyway, is a frightening lack of privacy in day-to-day life in Sweden. Go and hire a movie, and you’ll see what I mean. The assistant will ask for your national ID card, will then scan it over a barcode reader, and will then know where you live, have a record of your personal number and would, if they wanted, be able to go to the tax office and find out how much you earned last year. But that's Sweden - where robbers can do their research over the phone with the help of the authorities before picking their prey. In addition, the DNA of every child born in Sweden is held in a massive national DNA bank. Don’t get me wrong, this is a good idea, and the DNA bank is subject to stringent regulation. But surely there's a serious imbalance when the state is allowed to log people’s genetic makeup while the people themselves are not even allowed to discuss their own genes online. Another example of the confusion in this whole privacy business is security cameras. The police are slammed for not clearing up enough crimes and the tabloids spread fear of rape, murder and drug dealing - yet any suggestion that companies or local authorities should be allowed to use security cameras is usually met with a chorus of disapproval. "It's a breach of personal integrity!" cry the critics, inexplicably forgetting the important roles security cameras play both in crime prevention and crime solving. This random application of privacy laws, where ethnicity is private and personal finances are not, where privacy concerns outweigh personal safety, undermines the whole point of such regulations: preventing personal information from being used to harm the innocent individual. Surely it’s time to put a bit of integrity back into the personal integrity laws? Discuss this topic! James Savage Karem

Many German-Bohemians and Czechs settled in Nebraska. There is a private genealgy library for SE Nebraska in Crete. See: http://www.journalstar.com/articles/2005/10/30/nebraska/doc43627870dda66662561 107.txt <<The Pastfinder Library is a private genealogy library in Cretem NE, with a computerized county death index; county census microfilms; indexes of county marriages, naturalizations and homesteaders; newspaper collections and more. For more information or to set up an appointment, call Tom or Lyn Harrison at (402) 826-3462.<<

The URL for the Ohio Genealogical Society is: http://www.ogs.org/ It is a great website with a LOT of information to include digital records databases which is a project that will continue to grow. Ohio Genealogy It interests me because one branch of my German-bohemian ancestral families settled in Ohio. There are reverences to some of my ancestors visiting relatives there before finally coming to MN to settle. On the homepage there is a list of benefits for the members-only section of the website. Benefits include free access to HeritageQuest online. The $32 one-year membership may be well worth it just for that benefit if you don't have free access via Internet connection with a local public library. If you have Ohio ancestors or ancestors who passed through Ohio before settling elsewhere it may be a very good group to join. Karen

Found at: http://eogn.typepad.com/ Online Family Trees "Break Personal Data Law" Genealogists' free exchange of family history information over the internet could be in breach of Sweden's personal data act, according to the country's Board of Data Inspection (DI).If the details being shared refer to the race or ethnic origin of a person in the 18th century, all living descendants must give their consent before any information is made public. Continue reading "Online Family Trees "Break Personal Data Law"" » Posted by Dick Eastman on November 03, 2005 | Permalink | Comments (1)

Generally, the LDS does not accept data input on "living" persons to protect their identity. This is for the purpose to make it difficult for ID thieves who are looking for maiden names which banks are using for verification purposes. So here I can see the need that we tell our bank not to use our mother's maiden name and to use some other "password" and this should be brought up the moment you open a new account at a bank. And those of us who have banked for many years with the same bank, we should probably approach them for some such change also. While such caution does not surprise me I must take EXCEPTION to this impossibly harsh rule reaching as far back as the 18th century. That is 1700-1799! What I am observing on this list are questions about immigrant ancestors and their time frame moves mostly around late 19-20th century. It would be impossible to trace a family under such a harsh rule because our search would practically stop before it began! How can you get a consent from "all living descendants" of someone in the 18th century? Most of the time we don't even know who they are until we happen to "come together" on a mutual search line!!! This seems to me almost unworkable. Aida From: <KarenHob@aol.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 2:56 PM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] (no subject) > Found at: http://eogn.typepad.com/ > Online Family Trees "Break Personal Data Law" > Genealogists' free exchange of family history information over the > internet > could be in breach of Sweden's personal data act, according to the > country's > Board of Data Inspection (DI).If the details being shared refer to the > race or > ethnic origin of a person in the 18th century, all living descendants must > give > their consent before any information is made public. > Continue reading "Online Family Trees "Break Personal Data Law"" » > Posted by Dick Eastman on November 03, 2005 | Permalink | Comments (1) > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >

http://www.praguepost.com/P03/2005/Art/1103/news6.php Church is ruled owner of St. Vitus District Court's move reignites debate; state to appeal decision By Kristina Alda Staff Writer, The Prague Post November 02, 2005 Vladimír Weiss/The Prague Post The issue of who owns St. Vitus Cathedral, the state or the church, has been divisive since at least 1954. The dispute over the ownership of St. Vitus Cathedral, one of Prague's most iconic cultural landmarks, has dragged on for 13 long years. It looked as though the conflict between the state and the Catholic Church might finally be settled when the Prague 1 District Court ruled in favor of the church Oct. 25. But the state has decided to appeal to a higher court to have the decision overturned. The fate of the cathedral, and two nearby properties that are part of the dispute, remains uncertain. The simmering tension between the state and church, meanwhile, has once again bubbled up to the surface. During the communist regime the state seized control of church property. Priests in the Czech Republic are still employees of the government, a fact that only adds to the tension. "It's ridiculous that the state is still the cathedral's administrator," says Catholic Church spokesman Martin Horálek. "When there is a Mass, the priest actually has to physically go and borrow keys from the Prague Castle administration." The church, according to Horálek, is like a guest in the cathedral building and has no authority when it comes to the program. When the District Court reached the same verdict — in favor of the church — 11 years ago, the state successfully appealed to the Highest Court and the ruling was overturned. The state has been in charge of the cathedral's administration since 1954, when the communists declared in an edict that it belongs to the people and not the church. But according to Catholic Church representatives, the Communist Party never actually expropriated the cathedral. "The edict said that [the cathedral] belongs to the Czechoslovak people," says Petr Zdercík, the lawyer who represented the Catholic Church in the case. "But a government edict wasn't based on a law. There wasn't any law in place that would make it legal for the state to seize the cathedral." Libuše Fritzová, the judge who made the District Court ruling, said, "I based my decision on [the fact] that the church never lost ownership of the cathedral and the adjacent buildings." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- "It's ridiculous that the state is still the cathedral's administrator." Martin Horálek, spokesman, Catholic Church ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- "The only thing that the [communist] government did do in 1954 was take over the administration," Zdercík adds. "They may have thought they were expropriating the cathedral, but they were wrong. They didn't follow through with the legal process." Milada Šípková, a lawyer from the Office of the Government Representation in Property Affairs (ÚZSVM), represented the state in the court case. She says she will do all she can to have the District Court ruling overturned. "The state plans to appeal to the Prague City Court within the legal deadline," she says. "The legal representatives from ÚZSVM will do all in their power, within the parameters of the law, to benefit the state." But the Catholic Church doesn't plan on giving up anytime soon, either. "We had thought that the [Oct. 25] ruling would finally put an end to this eternal tug of war," says Horálek. "We hope that the Czech justice system is autonomous enough that the final decision will be fair." Another factor complicating the struggle is that the property law concerning the cathedral dates to medieval times. The Czech head of state, King Charles IV, established the cathedral in 1344, and was considered the legal owner. Since its completion the Catholic Church was in charge of the cathedral's administration for over 600 years — until the communists took over. "The problem is, [in the 14th century] the state and the church were interconnected," says Roman Zaoral, professor of medieval history at Charles University and a member of the Christian Academy. "There was no strict division between the two." Zaoral says the Czech Republic is rare in that its head of state as well as its cardinal reside in the same complex: "The fact that both heads are based at Prague Castle has been a source of tension here since the Middle Ages." Further fueling this tension is the country's refusal to sign a treaty with the Vatican, something that most post-communist countries have done, says Zaoral. The treaty helps define the role of the Catholic Church in state affairs, such as education, the military and health care. Parliament overwhelmingly rejected the treaty two years ago, fearing the church was gaining too much influence, he says. It's unsurprising that even today, communists continue to strongly oppose the cathedral being turned over to the Catholic Church. "The Czech Republic isn't a Catholic state," says Jirí Dolejš, deputy chairman of the Communist Party of Bohemia and Moravia. "A cultural monument of such significance as St. Vitus Cathedral should belong to the state. I hope that the appeal will end in the ruling being overturned like last time." What might seem more curious is that the general population is also siding with the state in this dispute. In an informal Internet survey conducted by the Czech daily Lidové noviny, 65 percent of respondents were opposed to the cathedral going to the Catholic Church. But Zaoral isn't too surprised. "The Czech Republic is a very secular country," he says. "Such a stance is to be expected." — Petr Kašpar contributed to this report.

It has been a long time since the list discussed the J G Sommer books. List newbies may be interested in knowing more about them. I forgot to mention that there is a more extensive translation of Sommer's book about Elbogen Kreis by Urs Geiser http://home.xnet.com/~ugeiser/Genealogy/Bohemia/contents.html If an ancestral birthplace was in this district, the translation may include details about that place (in English) at the time the book was written. Each section about a noble dominion (Herrschaft) includes a history of which noble families owned it as landlords of enserfed tenants, some data about its productivity and main sources of income, and a list of all the places that dominion included (up to 1848). The details about places tell which parish each was in among other information. After 1848 the administration of Bohemia passed from noble landlords to "public" administrative districts -- Bezirke / counties. The counties may have been somewhat related to the old Herrschaft / noble dominions in size and shape but do not anticipate any direct relationship. There were about 80 counties in Bohemia in 1848-49 with the first reorganization but that number increased several times as the years passed. Modern counties of CR do not always resemble the original "Bezirke" of 1848-49. The books by J G Sommer are : Das Königreich Böhmen. Each has a "subtitle" naming the Kreis it includes -- i.e., Pilsner Kreis, Elbogner Kreis, etc. To select the right volume it is necessary to know in which Kreis an ancestral birthplace lay before 1849. These books are available via Interlibrary Loan from several university libraries. The CGSI library in St. Paul has a complete collection (photocopies) and the GBHS library in New Ulm has a partial collection. Sometimes a volume or two will come up for sale on an Internet antiquariat website like the ZVAB website. Use J G Sommer as a search word. Each book has an alphabetical place name index at the back. In some cases the index is incomplete or has some errors. Some of the errors for previous books are noted in the back of the next book published. It has been my experience that when a place name is not in the index of a certain Sommer book it does not mean it is not included in the book. When that occurs, look for the name of the Herrschaft in which the place was located, or for the name of a nearby place. If any place nearby (from a map) is in the index, go to the page cited and scan all the place names on the pages for the Herrschaft represented. There is a good chance the place missing from the index will be there. These books are in Gothic German (Fraktur) but the place names in them are still easy to read. Once an ancestral place name is found, copy all of the pages for the "chapter" in which it is found for reference material. As research progresses the names of other places near the ancestral birthplace may become important. The history of nobles who owned the place helps to select the correct manorial records to search for other data like land transactions, records of tax and robot payments, justice / court actions, etc. that affected ancestors. The books by Gregor Wolny about Moravia (Das Markgrafschaft Mähren) cited earlier are similar in format and contents. All of them are available for interlibrary loan from Harvard University at about $20 per book if requested by a public library. Brün Kreis has 2 volumes while all other Moravian Kreise have only one. Karen

From time to time this list mentions the survey of Bohemia written by J G Sommer between about 1833 and 1848. The collection of books includes one volume for each of the 16 Kreis of Bohemia at that time. Below is an English translation of the foreward section of the volume for Elbogner Kreis by Urs Geiser found by Aida Kraus. http://home.xnet.com/~ugeiser/Genealogy/Bohemia/overview.html#economy At genealogy conferences I often cite the forward sections of these books as valuable for learning which Infantry regiment recruited in that area. The information usually appears in the section after Flora and Fauna. I names the regimental Inhaber (top officer, proprietor), gives the regiment number, and says how many sections of that regiment were recruited there. In the case of Elbogen it was 5 sections of IR 35. A section is a company. There were 10 companies in a regiment. Before 1860 each company of a regiment had its own specific recruitiing area (specific places). Some of the Sommer books actually name all of the places (villages, towns) in which a certain company recruited. Others only give the general information given in this translation. This data is good through about 1859 when there were 63 regiments. The number of regiments changed to 80 in 1860 and subsequently so did the size of the district where each recruited. After 1860 recruiting fell to county conscription commissions and individual regimental companies no longer did their own recruiting. Karen

Please send all future info to my new address, which is: jumpbox@sbcglobal.net Thank you. _____ From: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-D-request@rootsweb.com [mailto:GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-D-request@rootsweb.com] Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 7:00 AM To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-D@rootsweb.com Subject: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-D Digest V05 #240

In a message dated 11/4/2005 8:45:03 AM Mountain Standard Time, maryjo@jandjglass.com writes: Are there similar maps for Bohemia?? Many Heimat books for all of the Sudeten areaas of CZ include maps of villages mentioned but it is not possibile to tell which ones have them from the titles of the books. I have a community Heimat book for Mies county but it maps only the houses that were occupied by ethnic German families in the larger places because the maps are based on the memory of those who drew them. They also represent house numbers as they were in 1945. That is why it is best to write to one of the Heimat libraries to inquire about the contents of "unknown" books for a given area. Especially if you need to know which house had a given number prior to 1880 or so. Be sure to explain that to the librarian if that is what you need. Older materials related to Bohemia which may include some data about individtual places are kept at the Collegium Cariolinum in Munich. They have older maps of Bohemia that may include some village maps. They also have items like transcriptions of very old chronicles of places that can include references to individual surnames over time. post.cc@extern.lrz-muenchen.de Others who may be able to provide copies of such maps would be associated with a Heimat Verein / Heimat Museum in Germany There is a list of URLs about those organizations at the Sudetendeutsche Landsmannschaft website: http://www.sudeten.de Click on LINKS on the left of home page. In addition, explore the VSFF web pages for the names of Betreuer for given places. The Betreuer may know if there is a map of "his" place anywhere. Karen Karen

THANK YOU!!!!!! :) Mary Jo ------ Original Message ------ From: KarenHob@aol.com Date: Friday, November 4th, 2005 9:55 AM CST To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Moravian House Numbers? In a message dated 11/4/2005 8:45:03 AM Mountain Standard Time, maryjo@jandjglass.com writes: Are there similar maps for Bohemia?? Many Heimat books for all of the Sudeten areaas of CZ include maps of villages mentioned but it is not possibile to tell which ones have them from the titles of the books. I have a community Heimat book for Mies county but it maps only the houses that were occupied by ethnic German families in the larger places because the maps are based on the memory of those who drew them. They also represent house numbers as they were in 1945. That is why it is best to write to one of the Heimat libraries to inquire about the contents of "unknown" books for a given area. Especially if you need to know which house had a given number prior to 1880 or so. Be sure to explain that to the librarian if that is what you need. Older materials related to Bohemia which may include some data about individtual places are kept at the Collegium Cariolinum in Munich. They have older maps of Bohemia that may include some village maps. They also have items like transcriptions of very old chronicles of places that can include references to individual surnames over time. post.cc@extern.lrz-muenchen.de Others who may be able to provide copies of such maps would be associated with a Heimat Verein / Heimat Museum in Germany There is a list of URLs about those organizations at the Sudetendeutsche Landsmannschaft website: http://www.sudeten.de Click on LINKS on the left of home page. In addition, explore the VSFF web pages for the names of Betreuer for given places. The Betreuer may know if there is a map of "his" place anywhere. Karen Karen ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html

Are there similar maps for Bohemia?? Mary Jo ------ Original Message ------ From: KarenHob@aol.com Date: Thursday, November 3rd, 2005 2:16 PM CST To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Moravian House Numbers? There may be maps in Heimat literature for Maehrisch Truebau. It will reflect the "most recent" numbers for each house. Write to one or more of the Heimat libraries in Germany and ask if there is a map of the city showing house numbers in any of the Heimat books. One Edress for a library is: Bibliothek@hdhbw.BWL.de It is OK to write in English and the reply will com in English if you do. Houses were originally numbered for central administration around 1770 but they were known by a number in manorial records predating that year. They were renumbered at least once but I don't recall when. Some numbers never changed, others did. What is important is to be sure that the map of house numbers you use shows the number at the time the ancestor lived in the house. If the ancestor left Moravia before 1880, be sure to tell the year to the librarian. There may be another source for a map of house numbers during that time. Karen ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html

Thank you for responding to my inquiry about house number 41. I was thrilled to be looking at a map that many years ago was the village my Grandparents grew up in and maybe even were born in. Thank you again. My Grandfathers name was Franz Josef Klapka and he was born 26 February 1877. On his emigration passenger papers on the ship Rhein out of Bremen, he indicated his home address was " 41 Mahr. Trubau, Moravia ". That information is all I have as to his actual home. After so many years, I find it hard to believe that the actual house still exists. But old maps around the time of his emigration in 1909 may show were the house once stood. Do you believe house 41 is locateable? If you can help, please let me know. Kind regards, Ray Klapka -----Original Message----- From: SocksMyCat@aol.com To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 22:10:05 EST Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Moravian House Numbers? This is the website for this city. On the left side of the screen see MESTO, and under this is Mapa Mesta. Clicking on this you will see a map of the town. Click on the map to enlarge the map. Under Historie are nice pictures of the town, church, etc. http://www.mtrebova.cz/ posta@mtrebova.cz This is a web address from this site. Perhaps you could send an email and ask about your relatives and ask where house number 41 is located. In a message dated 11/3/2005 12:49:56 PM Central Standard Time, rtklapka@aol.com writes: Dear Heinz, Thank you for your response on the house number 41. Is there any document that you know of that may show a layout of the village showing houses? Or would you suspect that all reference, not to mention homes, would have long been destroyed or at least rebuilt? I understand that Moravska Trebova is now a very large town in CR. Kind regards, Ray Klapka -----Original Message----- From: Heinz Hadwig <Heinz.Hadwig@inode.at> To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:12:04 +0100 Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Moravian House Numbers? Hello! Mahrisch Trubau is a village in Moravia. 41 is the number of a house in this village. Mahrisch is writen with two dots on the A! Trubau is writen with two dots on the U! The today name is *Moravska Trebova* Go to: http://www.jewishgen.org/ShtetlSeeker/LocTown.asp to see a map. Regards, Heinz (Hadwig) ------------------------ rtklapka@aol.com schrieb: > Dear List, > > I am researching my Grand parent's family and found my Grandfather on > a passenger list. His from address is given as " 41 Mahr. Trubau ". > Would this be a house number or street number or something else? The > ship departed Bremen on April 22, 1909. I am researching surnames; > Klapka and Menzl from Mahr. Trubau, Moravia. Thank you very much for > any help. > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html

This is the website for this city. On the left side of the screen see MESTO, and under this is Mapa Mesta. Clicking on this you will see a map of the town. Click on the map to enlarge the map. Under Historie are nice pictures of the town, church, etc. http://www.mtrebova.cz/ posta@mtrebova.cz This is a web address from this site. Perhaps you could send an email and ask about your relatives and ask where house number 41 is located. In a message dated 11/3/2005 12:49:56 PM Central Standard Time, rtklapka@aol.com writes: Dear Heinz, Thank you for your response on the house number 41. Is there any document that you know of that may show a layout of the village showing houses? Or would you suspect that all reference, not to mention homes, would have long been destroyed or at least rebuilt? I understand that Moravska Trebova is now a very large town in CR. Kind regards, Ray Klapka -----Original Message----- From: Heinz Hadwig <Heinz.Hadwig@inode.at> To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:12:04 +0100 Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Moravian House Numbers? Hello! Mahrisch Trubau is a village in Moravia. 41 is the number of a house in this village. Mahrisch is writen with two dots on the A! Trubau is writen with two dots on the U! The today name is *Moravska Trebova* Go to: http://www.jewishgen.org/ShtetlSeeker/LocTown.asp to see a map. Regards, Heinz (Hadwig) ------------------------ rtklapka@aol.com schrieb: > Dear List, > > I am researching my Grand parent's family and found my Grandfather on > a passenger list. His from address is given as " 41 Mahr. Trubau ". > Would this be a house number or street number or something else? The > ship departed Bremen on April 22, 1909. I am researching surnames; > Klapka and Menzl from Mahr. Trubau, Moravia. Thank you very much for > any help. >

Hello! The responsible archiv is in Samrsk. Address*** Státní oblastní archiv v Zámrsku** Zámek** CZ-565 43 Zámrsk* Tel. +420-465 481 230, 465 481 202, Fax: 465 481 201, Email: soazam@raz-dva.cz <mailto:soazam@raz-dva.cz> They should have maps out of the land records. Write an e-mail. Regards, Heinz ---------------- rtklapka@aol.com schrieb: > Dear Heinz, > > Thank you for your response on the house number 41. Is there any > document that you know of that may show a layout of the village > showing houses? Or would you suspect that all reference, not to > mention homes, would have long been destroyed or at least rebuilt? I > understand that Moravska Trebova is now a very large town in CR. > > Kind regards, Ray Klapka > > -----Original Message----- > From: Heinz Hadwig <Heinz.Hadwig@inode.at> > To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:12:04 +0100 > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Moravian House Numbers? > > Hello! > > Mahrisch Trubau is a village in Moravia. 41 is the > number of a house in this village. > > Mahrisch is writen with two dots on the A! > Trubau is writen with two dots on the U! > > The today name is *Moravska Trebova* > > Go to: > http://www.jewishgen.org/ShtetlSeeker/LocTown.asp > to see a map. > > Regards, Heinz (Hadwig) > ------------------------ > > rtklapka@aol.com schrieb: > > > Dear List, > > > > I am researching my Grand parent's family and found my Grandfather > on > a passenger list. His from address is given as " 41 Mahr. Trubau > ". > Would this be a house number or street number or something else? > The > ship departed Bremen on April 22, 1909. I am researching > surnames; > Klapka and Menzl from Mahr. Trubau, Moravia. Thank you > very much for > any help. > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? > Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist.html and request an > archive. > > > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? > Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html > >

Hello! Mahrisch Trubau is a village in Moravia. 41 is the number of a house in this village. Mahrisch is writen with two dots on the A! Trubau is writen with two dots on the U! The today name is *Moravska Trebova* Go to: http://www.jewishgen.org/ShtetlSeeker/LocTown.asp to see a map. Regards, Heinz (Hadwig) ------------------------ rtklapka@aol.com schrieb: > Dear List, > > I am researching my Grand parent's family and found my Grandfather on > a passenger list. His from address is given as " 41 Mahr. Trubau ". > Would this be a house number or street number or something else? The > ship departed Bremen on April 22, 1909. I am researching surnames; > Klapka and Menzl from Mahr. Trubau, Moravia. Thank you very much for > any help. > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >