Aida ... The next down express my deep appreciation to you, even if not all the data is (per Laurence) not perfectly correct. It is only in the back-n-forth of info sharing that we get to a better consensus on maps and, for that matter, LOTS of other issues between peoples all over the globe! I have the feeling that some errors in data won't stop your contributions, but wanted you to know that this gen-dedicated detective hasn't fallen off the band wagon. There is so much going on in my own "baliwick" that I find the days too short to do all I want, which is why this (next down) is/was still sitting on my desk this morning... <<Aida .. You are SO on target! Don't know how you do it all and so quickly, but sure do appreciate your works ... for everyone! Best regards, Jo PS: I think I did download it all, but likely didn't scroll all the way down! (:-| Going back there right now! >> ----- Original Message----- From: "aida kraus" <akibb1@verizon.net> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 1:12 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Aida's link to Roll Map, re Galicia Settlements > If you give subject website a bit time to completely download, you will > find text below it. I am copying some of the information here, so that > you can go to the Schtetl seeker for the Jewish population in that area. > Although this website is geared towards German settlements in these areas, > they have a demograpy (see below) and it is a historic fact that where > there were German settlements there were Jewish settlements as well. You > can see that there is more Jewish population than German. > Aida > The text below is from that map link, so be sure to download it > completely! > > a.. The first offical Russian census was held in 1897, highlighting the > following ethnic groups in millions: > 55 - Russians > 22 - Ukrainians > 8 - Poles > 6 - White Russians > 5 - Jews > 4 - Balts > 3 - Caucasians > 2 - Germans (rounded from 1.8) > > "The following villages were established: 1894 - Podsosnovo; 1906 - Canes, > Nikolaevka; 1907 - Protasovo, Elizavetgrad, Telmanovo, Krasnoarmejka, > Marjanovka; 1908 - Gljaden, Udalnoe, Grishakovka, Orlovo, Kusak, Boronsk; > 1909 - Cloroshee, Mixajlovka; 1910 - Sambor, Shoomanovka, Nikolaevka; > 1912 - Ananjevka, Ekaterinovka, Serebropolje; and 1913 - Kamishenka. In > total, the Slavgorodsk District had 14 German settlements by 1907 and 16 > by 1909. By 1914, the German population in the district had more than 17 > thousand men. > The first German settlements experienced religious segregation. The > Catholics settled in Olgino, Otradnoe, and Barskoe, and the Lutherans > lived in Novenkoe, Kruglenkoe, Podsosnovo and Prishib. Among the settlers > were Altai Mennonites. Altay Mennonites basically came from the earlier > based affiliated colonies of Orlovo-Zagradovskoi, Ufa, Samara, Orenburg, > and the Crimeas. In 1910, the German villages were incorporated into Oryol > volosts (small rural districts). In 1916, one more volost was formed with > Xorise as its center, which completed the formation of German settlements > in Altai. The settlers who arrived later were placed in the existing > occupied villages. " > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jo Davis" <scenmkr106@wowway.com> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 9:44 AM > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Aida's link to Roll Map, re Galicia Settlements > > >> What's missing or wrong with this 1700 - 1800 German-Russian Settlement >> map, Lavrentiy? >> << http://www.rollintl.com/roll/grsettle.htm >> >> >> Would you, then, know anything about 'Jewish'-German local settlers in >> this time frame? Were they part of this "settlement" movement back then? >> How about the early 1900's? >> >> I appreciate any comments. >> >> Jo Davis

As to Laurence questions what would have happend if the German Bohemians had been allowed to stay at home I must say - thank God they deported us! Because the poor devils that stayed behind were under the fist of a Communist system for more than 50 years that was even worse for them than living under the Hitler regime. Actually the "Protectorate" had it pretty soft in comparison to the Sudetenland during the war years, because they had more food, no bombings, and did not have to join the military. Had this group from England not aggravated the situation - because it was too peaceful in the Czech lands - by sending in assassins to kill Heydrich, it would have remained very quiet there indeed, because ALL Bohemians are an "accepting people" Czech or German alike. But after killing the head of the Protectorate things became "tight" - just as tight as British occupation would apply in India when one of their officials was killed. It did not take long, and I was still there in 1948 when the Czechs "woke up" that expelling the Germans was a big mistake, that it put them into a quick economic downward spin, because these millions of people expelled left an unavoidable HOLE in a land that was nearly depleted after six long war years. It was the Czechs themselves that tore their hair out, because they were suddenly deprived of the connection to the Western World. The key to that world was in the hands of those 3 Million people they had expelled. It was then that they realized that a reforming of their "old Republic" would have saved the Czech Nation from Communism. The German people that were left in the Czech Republic were suddenly given far more rights again, like a German newspapers, forming of the Egerlander Gmoi, ethnic groups, cultural heritage, ethnic balls, etc. They even bonded in the common misery under the Communist Regime. They felt that these other "German troublemakers" were now gone, and what was left in their land were the "good Germans", or so they thought. But they did not know that there were many more "good Germans" that should never have been expelled and that those that had NEVER carried a grudge were now made furious with the injustice and bloodletting they had suffered. To sort that out.... that indeed is a sticky wicket! The mood of our people in 1945 was that the new Czechoslovakia would reform on the basis of the old...... and that was "ok"......so we go back to the old times....our sylvan beauty, our mountains, our fields have lasted that long, we will too.... Czechs and Germans mix, marry and mingle easily, both of them are sentimental about the beauty of their common home, they like the same basic living conditions, food, music and - in reality - they have always enriched one another. Neither of them has a political soul, they rather dance a polka together.... but it is this political part that has always been a source of disturbance coming from the outside of the land - and mainly England and Germany - who have forever interfered with the "Bohemian simple spirit" in furthering their own agendas, regardless if it was Wycliffe's thesis that created Hussites or the Catholic-Protestant 30 years war setting people against people for their own gain. It would be wise that WE Bohemians, all of us, Czechs and Germans wake up to this fact! Let me state a fact here: the Czech intelligence never had any reason to go to the Sudetenland and behaving like carpetbaggers, and they did NOT! These "well to do" Czechs did not need to steal and plunder, they stayed in their homes. But it is also understood by the German population of our common land, that jails were opened with the arrival of the liberating Russian army, thereby a certain criminal element and a very low social class was "released" like a mob to do as they pleased in the aftermath of WW2. And our people were horrified at what was coming at them totally uncontrolled. It was this "elements aim" in collecting these rich German spoils so envied for many centuries, regardless how much blood had to flow. It created such a havoc in history that it had to be kept hidden from the new generation of Czechs who were taught that all Germans that were expelled were BAD! But the truth is surfacing now, and German and Czech groups are actually working together to arrive again at a basis where they can exist side by side in the new EU. Germans are welcome again in Czechia, as it is now known, but what remains is a legal cleanup of property ownership, because our German names are still in existence on all Czech registers, which are our original ownership records called the Grundbuch (list of property ownership). You can even apply for your Czech citizenship... however, no Sudetengerman desires that because they are not Czech, they are Austrians still to this day.......and have become Germans in the meantime or citizens of many other countries. Living in their new homelands, and by acquiring the Czech citizenship does NOT give them the right to their old property as long as the Benes Decrees retained and there is the hairy questions if - on top ot it - our "world income" would be taxable by the Czech Republic in accepting this Czech citizenship. It is such and a convoluted law that even the best international lawyers have not yet "mastered". Aida ------------------------------------ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@erols.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 7:08 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Laurences question. > > Thanks Aida, Karen, and Frank. > > I now seek thoughts/opinions about would have been the likely > relationship of Czechs and Sudeten Germans in Czechoslavakia after World > War II if the Sudeten Germans were not deported to Germany after World > War II. > > ______ > > Lavrentiy > > . > > > > Frank Soural wrote: >> >> Here is Laurence Krupniacs question. >> >> I know, but my question is why Bohemian Germans didn't also move to >> democratic Germany after WWI if they didn't like the Czechoslovakian >> government (i.e. the post-World War I CZ government)? >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> Laurence. There are several reasons why this has not happened on a large >> scale. >> >> A good portion of Sudeten Germans (including myself) grew up in a >> bilingual >> culture It was natural for us to switch instantly into Czech and back >> again, >> when needed. So it was not a question of "not liking" the CZ government >> in >> Prague. I am sure my parents and GP's accepted the Prague Government as a >> fact of life. >> >> Furthermore, The German areas had been colonized in a big way since 1254 >> AD >> on behest of the Bohemian King Ottokar II and his faithful servant the >> good >> Bishop of Olmuetz (Olomouc)Bruno von Schaumburg who helped him settle the >> North Eastern part of Bohemia and Moravia. Our villages were our "Heimat" >> our Homeland and there was no reason for anyone to abandon >> our places just because we did not like the Government in Prague. >> I am sure you can draw a parallel with your own situation in the US. >> >> >From reading about the Sudeten history I conclude that all that was >> >demanded >> in 1918 by the German areas was to be granted democratic rights of "Self >> Determination" preferably under Austria or under a Federal Government >> in Prag. Neither was granted. Aida recently gave us an account of the 54 >> who >> were shot by the Czechs during a peaceful demonstration. By 1945 there >> were >> 3.5 million of us among roughly 8 million, in a "Multi Nation State" that >> Czechoslovakia always was, since it's inception. >> >> The concept of "Heimat" is very powerful notion that affects people, >> particularly when they have lost it. Because of this closeness to what is >> no >> longer theirs the Sudeten's are often labeled neo Nazis which >> I personally find to be utter hogwash and out of touch with reality. >> >> I have researched several topics dear to my heart, pertaining to the >> early >> German settlements which were subsequently published as articles in "Nase >> Rodina" and the "FEEFHS Journal". You may have come across them. >> >> If you need a refresher I'd be glad to send them to you electronically. >> >> Titles that may be of interest: >> >> . The early German Settlements in North eastern Moravia, >> Subtitled: And what the Pied Piper of Hamelin had to do with it. >> >> . The Celts in Moravia. With additional information on recent >> Archeological digs and kind permission of the Museum in >> Moravska Trebova. (Mährisch Trübau). >> >> Frank > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? > Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >

Thanks Aida, Karen, and Frank. I now seek thoughts/opinions about would have been the likely relationship of Czechs and Sudeten Germans in Czechoslavakia after World War II if the Sudeten Germans were not deported to Germany after World War II. ______ Lavrentiy . Frank Soural wrote: > > Here is Laurence Krupniacs question. > > I know, but my question is why Bohemian Germans didn’t also move to > democratic Germany after WWI if they didn't like the Czechoslovakian > government (i.e. the post-World War I CZ government)? > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Laurence. There are several reasons why this has not happened on a large > scale. > > A good portion of Sudeten Germans (including myself) grew up in a bilingual > culture It was natural for us to switch instantly into Czech and back again, > when needed. So it was not a question of “not liking” the CZ government in > Prague. I am sure my parents and GP’s accepted the Prague Government as a > fact of life. > > Furthermore, The German areas had been colonized in a big way since 1254 AD > on behest of the Bohemian King Ottokar II and his faithful servant the good > Bishop of Olmuetz (Olomouc)Bruno von Schaumburg who helped him settle the > North Eastern part of Bohemia and Moravia. Our villages were our “Heimat” > our Homeland and there was no reason for anyone to abandon > our places just because we did not like the Government in Prague. > I am sure you can draw a parallel with your own situation in the US. > > >From reading about the Sudeten history I conclude that all that was demanded > in 1918 by the German areas was to be granted democratic rights of “Self > Determination” preferably under Austria or under a Federal Government > in Prag. Neither was granted. Aida recently gave us an account of the 54 who > were shot by the Czechs during a peaceful demonstration. By 1945 there were > 3.5 million of us among roughly 8 million, in a “Multi Nation State” that > Czechoslovakia always was, since it’s inception. > > The concept of “Heimat” is very powerful notion that affects people, > particularly when they have lost it. Because of this closeness to what is no > longer theirs the Sudeten's are often labeled neo Nazis which > I personally find to be utter hogwash and out of touch with reality. > > I have researched several topics dear to my heart, pertaining to the early > German settlements which were subsequently published as articles in “Nase > Rodina” and the “FEEFHS Journal”. You may have come across them. > > If you need a refresher I’d be glad to send them to you electronically. > > Titles that may be of interest: > > • The early German Settlements in North eastern Moravia, > Subtitled: And what the Pied Piper of Hamelin had to do with it. > > • The Celts in Moravia. With additional information on recent > Archeological digs and kind permission of the Museum in > Moravska Trebova. (Mährisch Trübau). > > Frank

In a message dated 3/13/2006 5:00:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-D-request@rootsweb.com writes: Karen, Are the military records in English. thank you Mary Mary, It would be great - for us - if all records were in English throughout the world, but I doubt you are going to find records from any country that did not speak English that exist in the English language. The military ones I've seen certainly aren't; they were made by the Austro-Hungarian Military, hence you should not be surprisedt to find they are in German.. Anettka

I have on line the complete Moletein book if any one wants one let me know... It is very interesting.. I have it on pdf and can email it to you.. Kathy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@erols.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 7:08 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Laurences question. Thanks Aida, Karen, and Frank. I now seek thoughts/opinions about would have been the likely relationship of Czechs and Sudeten Germans in Czechoslavakia after World War II if the Sudeten Germans were not deported to Germany after World War II. ______ Lavrentiy . Frank Soural wrote: > > Here is Laurence Krupniacs question. > > I know, but my question is why Bohemian Germans didn't also move to > democratic Germany after WWI if they didn't like the Czechoslovakian > government (i.e. the post-World War I CZ government)? > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Laurence. There are several reasons why this has not happened on a large > scale. > > A good portion of Sudeten Germans (including myself) grew up in a bilingual > culture It was natural for us to switch instantly into Czech and back again, > when needed. So it was not a question of "not liking" the CZ government in > Prague. I am sure my parents and GP's accepted the Prague Government as a > fact of life. > > Furthermore, The German areas had been colonized in a big way since 1254 AD > on behest of the Bohemian King Ottokar II and his faithful servant the good > Bishop of Olmuetz (Olomouc)Bruno von Schaumburg who helped him settle the > North Eastern part of Bohemia and Moravia. Our villages were our "Heimat" > our Homeland and there was no reason for anyone to abandon > our places just because we did not like the Government in Prague. > I am sure you can draw a parallel with your own situation in the US. > > >From reading about the Sudeten history I conclude that all that was demanded > in 1918 by the German areas was to be granted democratic rights of "Self > Determination" preferably under Austria or under a Federal Government > in Prag. Neither was granted. Aida recently gave us an account of the 54 who > were shot by the Czechs during a peaceful demonstration. By 1945 there were > 3.5 million of us among roughly 8 million, in a "Multi Nation State" that > Czechoslovakia always was, since it's inception. > > The concept of "Heimat" is very powerful notion that affects people, > particularly when they have lost it. Because of this closeness to what is no > longer theirs the Sudeten's are often labeled neo Nazis which > I personally find to be utter hogwash and out of touch with reality. > > I have researched several topics dear to my heart, pertaining to the early > German settlements which were subsequently published as articles in "Nase > Rodina" and the "FEEFHS Journal". You may have come across them. > > If you need a refresher I'd be glad to send them to you electronically. > > Titles that may be of interest: > > . The early German Settlements in North eastern Moravia, > Subtitled: And what the Pied Piper of Hamelin had to do with it. > > . The Celts in Moravia. With additional information on recent > Archeological digs and kind permission of the Museum in > Moravska Trebova. (Mährisch Trübau). > > Frank ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html

Correct.... and there were quite a few that were immediately removed to concentration camps upon Hitler's arrival in the Sudetenland. Or they were otherwise "punished" for not eagerly awaiting the German Army's arrival or not decorating their houses with flags. They watched who did and did not join the NSDAP party and if you did not, they disowned people's businesses, avoided giving them government contracts, or demoted them to another job. Gestapo raids and other annoying interferences were on the order of everyday occurrences. They set up Nazi "Blockwart" persons, and these former "low lives" were indeed real "warts" because they observed all the people in the neighborhood and reported everyone's behavior as either pro and anti Nazi. We have several cases in our family where one uncle spent 2 years at Dachau.... and now the paradox.... while his nearly 2 m (about 6'4') tall son was selected to serve in Hitler's personal "Leibstandarte" guard. On purpose, perhaps? It was a crazy world alright and what most of our people learned during these years was this: Life is like a pasta dough..... lets become smooth enough to squeeze softly through the holes!" Aida ------------------------------------------------ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herbert Schwarz" <schwarzs@ebtech.net> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 8:20 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Laurences question. > List Members, One item which has not been mentioned in the recent > discusions, is that between 1919 and 1938, not all the Sudeten Germans > were inclined to be part of the German Reich. Czechoslovakia had a > multiparty membership and a high number of the German speaking population > belonged to a Social Democratic party (i.e. similar to the NDP in Canada > or the Labour Party in England) , the Communist Parrty had also a > considerable membership. They were represented in the Czech Parlament and > persecuteded by the Nazi Party. Many members of the SDP party escaped to > England and a number also settled in Canada. This Antinazi group was not > recognized after WW 2 in Czechoslovakia and a number of the members > settled in Germany or remained abroad. Herb Schwarz, Ontario,Canada > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "richard anderson" <andyandkathy@cox.net> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 12:13 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Laurences question. > > >>I have on line the complete Moletein book if any one wants one let me >> know... It is very interesting.. I have it on pdf and can email it to >> you.. >> Kathy >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@erols.com> >> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 7:08 AM >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Laurences question. >> >> >> >> Thanks Aida, Karen, and Frank. >> >> I now seek thoughts/opinions about would have been the likely >> relationship of Czechs and Sudeten Germans in Czechoslavakia after World >> War II if the Sudeten Germans were not deported to Germany after World >> War II. >> >> ______ >> >> Lavrentiy >> >> . >> >> >> >> Frank Soural wrote: >>> >>> Here is Laurence Krupniacs question. >>> >>> I know, but my question is why Bohemian Germans didn't also move to >>> democratic Germany after WWI if they didn't like the Czechoslovakian >>> government (i.e. the post-World War I CZ government)? >>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Laurence. There are several reasons why this has not happened on a large >>> scale. >>> >>> A good portion of Sudeten Germans (including myself) grew up in a >> bilingual >>> culture It was natural for us to switch instantly into Czech and back >> again, >>> when needed. So it was not a question of "not liking" the CZ government >>> in >>> Prague. I am sure my parents and GP's accepted the Prague Government as >>> a >>> fact of life. >>> >>> Furthermore, The German areas had been colonized in a big way since 1254 >> AD >>> on behest of the Bohemian King Ottokar II and his faithful servant the >> good >>> Bishop of Olmuetz (Olomouc)Bruno von Schaumburg who helped him settle >>> the >>> North Eastern part of Bohemia and Moravia. Our villages were our >>> "Heimat" >>> our Homeland and there was no reason for anyone to abandon >>> our places just because we did not like the Government in Prague. >>> I am sure you can draw a parallel with your own situation in the US. >>> >>> >From reading about the Sudeten history I conclude that all that was >> demanded >>> in 1918 by the German areas was to be granted democratic rights of "Self >>> Determination" preferably under Austria or under a Federal Government >>> in Prag. Neither was granted. Aida recently gave us an account of the 54 >> who >>> were shot by the Czechs during a peaceful demonstration. By 1945 there >> were >>> 3.5 million of us among roughly 8 million, in a "Multi Nation State" >>> that >>> Czechoslovakia always was, since it's inception. >>> >>> The concept of "Heimat" is very powerful notion that affects people, >>> particularly when they have lost it. Because of this closeness to what >>> is >> no >>> longer theirs the Sudeten's are often labeled neo Nazis which >>> I personally find to be utter hogwash and out of touch with reality. >>> >>> I have researched several topics dear to my heart, pertaining to the >>> early >>> German settlements which were subsequently published as articles in >>> "Nase >>> Rodina" and the "FEEFHS Journal". You may have come across them. >>> >>> If you need a refresher I'd be glad to send them to you electronically. >>> >>> Titles that may be of interest: >>> >>> . The early German Settlements in North eastern Moravia, >>> Subtitled: And what the Pied Piper of Hamelin had to do with it. >>> >>> . The Celts in Moravia. With additional information on recent >>> Archeological digs and kind permission of the Museum in >>> Moravska Trebova. (Mährisch Trübau). >>> >>> Frank >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? >> Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >> >> >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >> list? To search the archives, go to: >> http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN >> >> > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To browse the archives, go to: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >

Here is Laurence Krupniacs question. I know, but my question is why Bohemian Germans didn’t also move to democratic Germany after WWI if they didn't like the Czechoslovakian government (i.e. the post-World War I CZ government)? -------------------------------------------------------------- Laurence. There are several reasons why this has not happened on a large scale. A good portion of Sudeten Germans (including myself) grew up in a bilingual culture It was natural for us to switch instantly into Czech and back again, when needed. So it was not a question of “not liking” the CZ government in Prague. I am sure my parents and GP’s accepted the Prague Government as a fact of life. Furthermore, The German areas had been colonized in a big way since 1254 AD on behest of the Bohemian King Ottokar II and his faithful servant the good Bishop of Olmuetz (Olomouc)Bruno von Schaumburg who helped him settle the North Eastern part of Bohemia and Moravia. Our villages were our “Heimat” our Homeland and there was no reason for anyone to abandon our places just because we did not like the Government in Prague. I am sure you can draw a parallel with your own situation in the US. From reading about the Sudeten history I conclude that all that was demanded in 1918 by the German areas was to be granted democratic rights of “Self Determination” preferably under Austria or under a Federal Government in Prag. Neither was granted. Aida recently gave us an account of the 54 who were shot by the Czechs during a peaceful demonstration. By 1945 there were 3.5 million of us among roughly 8 million, in a “Multi Nation State” that Czechoslovakia always was, since it’s inception. The concept of “Heimat” is very powerful notion that affects people, particularly when they have lost it. Because of this closeness to what is no longer theirs the Sudeten's are often labeled neo Nazis which I personally find to be utter hogwash and out of touch with reality. I have researched several topics dear to my heart, pertaining to the early German settlements which were subsequently published as articles in “Nase Rodina” and the “FEEFHS Journal”. You may have come across them. If you need a refresher I’d be glad to send them to you electronically. Titles that may be of interest: • The early German Settlements in North eastern Moravia, Subtitled: And what the Pied Piper of Hamelin had to do with it. • The Celts in Moravia. With additional information on recent Archeological digs and kind permission of the Museum in Moravska Trebova. (Mährisch Trübau). Frank -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.1/279 - Release Date: 3/10/2006

In a message dated 3/12/2006 4:40:53 PM Mountain Standard Time, hwhitemc@msn.com writes: Aida, Can you tell me why I cannot open the pictures on this document ? Just a red X in each square? Helen Mailing lists usually will not show photos or allow attachments. When you want to post a picture to the list you may have to put it at a special rootsweb website for photos and give the list the URL. Karen

In a message dated 3/12/2006 4:12:52 PM Mountain Standard Time, MAMME53196@aol.com writes: Karen, Are the military records in English. thank you Mary Mary, ALL records on film at the LDS are in the original langauge in which they were written. That includes civil, military and church records from any of the former Austrian Lands. The LDS filmed the originals of the old military records. There are over 2600 titles in the catalog now and each one has from 1-200 or more separate films under it. They also have more than 1000 films of military records that are still not in the catalog.. Translating all of that would be a lifetime task for all of Venna!! They go back to the 1760s and up to about 1870 with a few going to 1885. Military church books (deaths, marriages, births concerning active duty soldiers) go up to 1918-1920. They are mostly in German. Some later ones (dated after 1868 and up to WW I) may be in German plus Hungarian and Czech or Polish. I have some examples of military passbooks that are only in Hungarian with section of instructions for reporting in the case of war in Hungarian and German. Others have the same format with both languages in the "boxes". In general the passbooks carry the same data that is on a soldier's "Grundbuchblätter" or individual record with the addition of notations when the soldier reported for reserve duty after he went off active duty. Passbooks were not used until after 1868 -- maybe not until 1883 or so. Does anyone have a Militär-Pass that is older than 1883?? The Surnames on military records and passbooks are always the first hand written item and they are written very clearly. The rest of the handwriting is smaller and a bit harder to read. So not only are the records in German, they are hand written in old german script which does not resemble our own handwriting very much. But that should not deter anyone from research with old records of any kind. A copy of a document that is handwritten is not difficult to get translated by simply putting a query to the list when you have a hard copy to mail or a scanned copy to Email. It is easy to save digital copies of LDS films. Every FHC has a computer that permits viewing a film on screen and allows you to copy records to a CD or to print them. The formats of some (the headers for each "box"of information) military records have been translated by various research organizations and individuals. Some have been published on the Internet. Others are available in an old conference Syllabus at the CGSI library in St,. Paul or from anyone who may have one from other souces. There may be some list members who have copies of the translated documents I distributed at various conferences in St. Paul, Minneapolis, Chicago, Houston, Lincoln, Regina (Saskatchewan) and elsewhere. There are also the articles I wrote for the EEGS journal that carry sample documents and tell what they contain. The three articles were published in Winter of 2002 and spring and winter of 2003. They may still have some copies you can buy at $5 per issue or contact me off list for other options. The articles start with recruiting rules so researchers can determine if and when an ancestor or one of his ancestors may have served. The second is how to select the right regiment and the LDS resources to assist you. The third is all the types of military records at the LDS and how to access a given type easily. The CGSI newsletter has also consitently published examples of various Czech documents with explanation. I believe I have seen some very good websites with lists of Czech words from various Czech records with their translations. Elaine Maddox may be able to refer the lest to one or more of those sites with their sample documents. Again, with all the help that is available for understanding these documents all the novice researcher needs to to understand all of the possible spellings of an ancestral name....to recognize it or a sound-alike in an old record. Sound-alikes can be pretty strange. In the tax rolls of 1654 my ancestral Grosam surname was "Grausamb". Latter it was variously spelled with 2 "s" or manybe 2 "m" at the end. If I had not gotten my great grandfather's military record I still would not know where he was born. Karen

Karen, Are the military records in English. thank you Mary

Thanks Anettko - You clarified it: Taticek Masaryk was revered by the Czech population and he died of old age. My stamp collection has a stamp that commemorates his death. By the way It's "Defenestration" when someone gets tossed out of a window. Frank -----Original Message----- From: Anettka@aol.com [mailto:Anettka@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 4:32 PM To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Re: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-Masaryk's Memorandum on Independent Bohemia in 1915 In a message dated 3/12/2006 11:01:40 AM Pacific Standard Time, Karen writes: I believe that Masryk was eventually assassinated in a somewhat traditional manner used against various Bohemian officials someone didn't want around any more since the 15th century (maybe even longer). He was thrown from a window in a government building....called "defenstration" as a means of assassination. It was Jan Masaryk, son of Tomas Masaryk, first president of Czechoslovakia, who died in such a manner. Tomas died of old age at his home years after he retired. Jan died under suspicious circumstances and although they initially said it was suicide, only a few years ago they decided he was murdered. Anettka masarykTomas Masaryk, first president of ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the list? To search the archives, go to: http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.1/279 - Release Date: 3/10/2006 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.1/279 - Release Date: 3/10/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.1/279 - Release Date: 3/10/2006

In a message dated 3/12/2006 11:01:40 AM Pacific Standard Time, Karen writes: I believe that Masryk was eventually assassinated in a somewhat traditional manner used against various Bohemian officials someone didn't want around any more since the 15th century (maybe even longer). He was thrown from a window in a government building....called "defenstration" as a means of assassination. It was Jan Masaryk, son of Tomas Masaryk, first president of Czechoslovakia, who died in such a manner. Tomas died of old age at his home years after he retired. Jan died under suspicious circumstances and although they initially said it was suicide, only a few years ago they decided he was murdered. Anettka masarykTomas Masaryk, first president of

You probably don't have certain cookies that would open it, try copying and pasting the address it into another URL. Aida ----- Original Message ----- From: "Helen" <hwhitemc@msn.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Defenestration > Aida, > Can you tell me why I cannot open the pictures on this document ? Just a > red X in each square? > Helen > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "aida kraus" <akibb1@verizon.net> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 1:48 PM > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Defenestration > > >> The first defenestration was during the Hussite wars in 1419 at Prague , > and the second is the "famous one" which started the 30 years war > (1618-1648) when they booted 7 members of the council out of the > Hradschin's > window. The end of this religious war was Wallenstein's assassination > at > Eger in 1643 which lead to the Westphalian peace 1648. Wallenstein was > assassinated by his own Catholics because they misunderstood his efforts > for > peace between the warring parties as treason. After so many years of > religious war there were not many inhabitants left. To assassinate > Wallenstein, they killed his officers at a banquet and this was done by > Catholic Scotsmen Leslie, Butler and Gordon who fought on the side of the > German Kaiser. Wallenstein himself was run through with a spear while he > was asleep in his bed by a Frenchman named Deveroux on the orders of the > German Kaiser for whom Wallenstein had fought battles for 25 years. If > you > travel to Eger you can visit the old ! >> rooms where this happened. The last defenestration was of Jan Mazaryk, > the son of the first president of Czechoslovakia Thomas Mazaryk in 1948. > If > you are interested read this link below. Aida >> http://www.iup.edu/politicalscience/courses/ps101/d-westph.htm >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? >> Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >> >> > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To browse the archives, go to: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >

Aida, Can you tell me why I cannot open the pictures on this document ? Just a red X in each square? Helen ----- Original Message ----- From: "aida kraus" <akibb1@verizon.net> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 1:48 PM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Defenestration > The first defenestration was during the Hussite wars in 1419 at Prague , and the second is the "famous one" which started the 30 years war (1618-1648) when they booted 7 members of the council out of the Hradschin's window. The end of this religious war was Wallenstein's assassination at Eger in 1643 which lead to the Westphalian peace 1648. Wallenstein was assassinated by his own Catholics because they misunderstood his efforts for peace between the warring parties as treason. After so many years of religious war there were not many inhabitants left. To assassinate Wallenstein, they killed his officers at a banquet and this was done by Catholic Scotsmen Leslie, Butler and Gordon who fought on the side of the German Kaiser. Wallenstein himself was run through with a spear while he was asleep in his bed by a Frenchman named Deveroux on the orders of the German Kaiser for whom Wallenstein had fought battles for 25 years. If you travel to Eger you can visit the old ! > rooms where this happened. The last defenestration was of Jan Mazaryk, the son of the first president of Czechoslovakia Thomas Mazaryk in 1948. If you are interested read this link below. Aida > http://www.iup.edu/politicalscience/courses/ps101/d-westph.htm > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? > Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html > >

I have to correct my memory here .....he seven members of the city council were thrown out at the first defenestration during the Hussite wars. It was the second defenestration which actually will put a smile on your face.... Aida Read: At Prague Castle on May 23, 1618, an assembly of Protestants (led by Count Thurn) tried two Imperial governors, Wilhelm Graf Slavata (1572 - 1652) and Jaroslav Borzita Graf von Martinicz (1582 - 1649), for violating the Letter of Majesty (Right of Freedom of Religion), found them guilty, and threw them, together with their scribe Philip Fabricius, out of the high castle windows, They fell some 15 m (50 ft), and they landed on a large pile of manure. They all survived.

On Mar 12, 2006, at 2:00 PM, KarenHob@aol.com wrote: > He was thrown > from a window in a government building....called "defenstration" > as a means > of assassination. I remember reading (I think in the Saturday Evening Post) back some time in the '50s an article either by, or quoting, the Czech(!) police inspector who investigated Masaryk's death. He apparently did a very careful job and found that Masaryk had been surprised reading in bed, and had been injected in the ear with some poison, probably formaldehyde, then dragged to the bathroom and thrown out the window. Masaryk was probably already dead when he hit the stone pavement one floor below. The inspector didn't say specifically, but pretty strongly implied that the Communists were responsible. If you are going into Czech politics you should be careful to live on the ground floor! Dan Killoran

The first defenestration was during the Hussite wars in 1419 at Prague , and the second is the "famous one" which started the 30 years war (1618-1648) when they booted 7 members of the council out of the Hradschin's window. The end of this religious war was Wallenstein's assassination at Eger in 1643 which lead to the Westphalian peace 1648. Wallenstein was assassinated by his own Catholics because they misunderstood his efforts for peace between the warring parties as treason. After so many years of religious war there were not many inhabitants left. To assassinate Wallenstein, they killed his officers at a banquet and this was done by Catholic Scotsmen Leslie, Butler and Gordon who fought on the side of the German Kaiser. Wallenstein himself was run through with a spear while he was asleep in his bed by a Frenchman named Deveroux on the orders of the German Kaiser for whom Wallenstein had fought battles for 25 years. If you travel to Eger you can visit the old ! rooms where this happened. The last defenestration was of Jan Mazaryk, the son of the first president of Czechoslovakia Thomas Mazaryk in 1948. If you are interested read this link below. Aida http://www.iup.edu/politicalscience/courses/ps101/d-westph.htm

At 11:07 AM 3/12/2006, you wrote: >In a message dated 3/12/2006 8:24:26 AM Mountain Standard Time, >LKrupnak@erols.com writes: >I know, but my question is why didn't Bohemian Germans also move to >democratic Germany after WWI if they didn't like the Czechoslovakian >government (i.e. the post-World War I CZ government)? > Other reasons besides what Aida mentioned. > >The German-Bohemians have never felt any real affinity for "Germany". One >reason is that they feared the way the Prussians had attempted to >protestantize >the areas they ruled following establishment of the Prussian Reich >1871-1918. > Their Roman Catholic religion is not just their faith but also a sort of >"political statement" similar to that of the Poles during the period of >Russian >occupation. > >During the period that they were ruled by an Austrian Kaiser they enjoyed >certain benefits of being German -- they were the Kaiser's political base in >Bohemia. Inl 1868 after the bloody war with Prussia many began to >understand tha >t they could not count on the Kaiser any longer. They lost faith in his >interest in their welfare after he turned them to cannon fodder on the >battlefield >at Königgrätz. The Czechs and Hungarians used the apparent weaknes of the >Kaiser caused by the Prussian victory to begin a slow erosion of some of the >German minority's social safeguards. Many saw that they were going to >lose their >political status and that represented some dangers to their lifestyle. The >defeat also added economic burdens that were the last straw for many and that >was when serious immigration to the US began. (My great grandfather was a >veteran of that war, was discharged in 1867 and by 1869 he was in Minnesota.) > >The important thing is that the German-Bohemians felt they enjoyed the >Kaiser's protection up to that time and they were proud to call themselves >"Austrian." > >Granted, equal language rights is a concession that I believe the Kaiser >should have granted back in 1830 when it first became a serious national >issue. >The classes at Charles Universtiy were taught in German only into the >1860s and >all official documents were in German only and it is easy to see how that >would be an important issue to the Czechs. Those who wanted to advance >economically and socially simply had to learn German and many of them did >so. The >Germans felt little need to learn Czech. > >Under the Kaiser's rule the Czechs were forced to learn German if they wanted >a good job or to go to the University. That situation eventually became the >impetus for the Czech nationalism that culminated in the search for unity >with >the "Slavic Brotherhood" of Eastern Europe by Benesch. > >The Egerland is a special place. It was once a part of upper Bavaria. It >came under the Bohemian crown in 1232 when the Bavarian king had to give >it up >because he had mortgaged it to the Bohemian king to pay for a war against the >Holy Roman Emperor. When Bavaria could not repay the loan, Bohemia >foreclosed >and the Egerland with all its German population became Bohemian. The >Germans who lived there managed to find a way to cope and make the best of >their >political situaltion no matter how it changed over time. That "find a >way" to >change things tradition was also a part of their culture and another reason >that they stayed where their roots were -- they believed that eventually >things >would be different if they could just live and let-live.. > >Over the years there were Czechs who migrated into the Egerland because that >was where the best jobs were located. But they were still only about a 5% >minority in 1918 and there were many rural places in the Egerland where there >were no Czechs at all. > >The Egerlander German-Bohemians along with some other "borderland" communties >petitioned for a plebiscite for self determination for themselves as a 95% >majority of the western part of Bohemia after WW I just as did the >Slovaks). >They set up an autonomous state with the name "Austrian" in it. I don't >recall >for sure but I seem to remember it was "Austrian Germany". They also >established an interim government in hopes that the plebiscite would be >approved. > >The Czech army moved in and forced unification with CZ with quite a bit of >bloodshed. I don't recall if that was before or after the vote by the >Allies on >the requested plebiscites. Ultimately the Allies denied the plebiscite and >included the contested areas (western Bohemia and Slovakia) in the new >state of >CZ. Slovakia was to be given a certain amount of autonomy but that never >happened. > >The Czechs immediately required all village, town, city and country >adminstrators to be of Czech nationality -- down to office clerks -- even >in places >that had no Czech population whatever. If there were one Czech child in >a place >all of the schools had to teach only in Czech at first. Czechs replaced >Germans in governent (down to postmen and railroad workers) and managerial >and >other industrial jobs and Germans could not hold those postitions by law. In >many instances the Germans had to train the Czechs who would replace >them. In >the end the new laws left only casual labor positions open for Germans and >many >had to seek employment in Germany and Austria in order to make a living and >stay in their homes in Bohemia. Another option was to emigrate. > >Some Sudetens decided that they could continue to live and let-live and the >best way to keep their homes and to change the system was with >politics. They >formed a Sudeten German political party to make sure that Germans would be >represented in the Czech legislature. Many feel that they were making slow >progress towards more equality economically and in education about the >time that >"Munich" took place. > >All of Europe felt that the denial of the plebiscites in 1918 was a great >injustice. It was something that created a certain amount of unrest and the >"Sudeten Question" was something that Hitler used to threaten the rest of >Europe.. Europe wanted to fix it. > >The Munich conference agreed that western Bohemia sould be a "German state" >and gave it to the Third Reich as of 1939. The area included partos of the >Bohemian Forest alond the border with Bavaria. > >The denial of the plebiscite in 1918 and the on-going economic and cultural >suppression of Germans (through schools and administrative >proceedures) since >then was one of the main reasons that the Sudetens welcomed the Third Reich >as "liberators". > >There were 10,000 Germans who fled old Bohemia in 1938 because they >disagreed with the NAZIs. Some managed to make it to Canada and Sweden >with the help >of the Red Cross but most of them who went to other European countries were >forcibly repatriated and ended up in concentration camps. I read an article >about the Sudetens from the Jeschken-Iser district who went to Canada then >in a >Jeschen-Iser Jarhbuch. Our Canadian members probably know of the >German-Canadian settlements of 1938. > >Karen --------- Karen the reasons you mentioned above is exactly why my grandfather left Haslau/Asch in 1905. He did not want his sons in the army and there was no future there for him. All he owned was his house. I think he had been in the army and he felt there was going to be another war.When the first world war started, fiends of my uncle who was born there said the government was around looking for the MUELLER boys. Your article is well put and in my estimation the fate of those people was set in 1918 and what happened in 1945/46 was an acceleration of the brutality of the Czechs towards the German people. The second world war was just an excuse. Cheers Doug

In a message dated 3/11/2006 9:04:16 PM Mountain Standard Time, tossick@swbell.net writes: However, the cause of death for some was listed as "marasmus," or the wasting of an infant for no discernible cause. As an interpretive exhibit declares, today the diagnosis would likely be "failure to thrive for lack of love." I wonder is this is what today's doctors call "failure to thrive.??" Most of the cases seen today make doctors suspicious of some kind of neglect . Karen

There is an interesting document showing the mind-set of a Czech leader in 1915 at: http://www.h-net.org/~habsweb/sourcetexts/masaryk1.htm This is probably a must read for people who really want to understand the Czechs and Germans thing. I do not know how much influence Masaryk had on the allies in Potsdam who decided to deny the plebiscite to the Sudetens and Slovaks. I believe that Masryk was eventually assassinated in a somewhat traditional manner used against various Bohemian officials someone didn't want around any more since the 15th century (maybe even longer). He was thrown from a window in a government building....called "defenstration" as a means of assassination. I am really not up on Czech history and cannot discuss this with anyone who is. My real reasearch interest is life in rural Bohemia before 1870. Karen