Thank You - I couldn't find it either Aida Kraus wrote: > The title of the tax rolls is called Berni Rula and can be requested > from your library. Here is the source. > Berni Rula Source (Census of Bohemian Population after 30 years war > 1651 - 1654 > > ISBN 80-7277-058-6 > > Author Cerveny (2003) > > Avialable on Interlibrary loan from Indiana University > > > Sometimes you will have to wait a few weeks, but it is well worth it. > Unfortunately, they have distorted all the original German records by > translating the German names of our ancestors into Czech, especially > their first names, because as you can see this record was compiled as > recently as 2003. We had Heinrich, Anton and Franz under many of our > German surnames. However, now they appear as Jindrich, Antonin and > Frantisek under a very poorly spelled last name. This requires a bit of > studying to prepare yourself for the "hunt". While my ancestors and I > lived in the old Czechoslovakia, the German settlements documents were > recorded in German and the Czech settlements documents were issued in > Czech. For English speaking people the German is far easier to read > than the Czech lettering, which is phonetic. > > If you go to a German website, like Yahoo, search for the German name, > like Schönbach and then the word Tschechien (which means Czech Republic) > and you will most likely get all the Schönbach Villages in Bohemia and > Moravia. I tried it for you and I am getting these three (see listing > below) from the German-Czech Village name Index which I am also giving > here. The German village name is given first and the one after the > colon: is the present Czech name. I don't know which one of the > Schönbachs is the village where your ancestors came from. To isolate > this information, you will have to go to the next step given below, see > "mapy.cz" > To find the new Czech name for German villages go to: > > http://www.tschechien-online.org/news/1452-ortsnamen-tschechien-liste-deutscher-bezeichnungen-tschechischer-orte-buchstabe-s/ > > > a.. Schönbach (bei Deutsch Gabel): Zdislava > > a.. Schönbach im Erzgebirge: Meziborí > > a.. Schönbach (bei Wildstein): Luby > > After you have located the Czech village name, go to this website : > www.mapy.cz find the search button type in the Czech village name and > press "dalsi" (go) and a map will come up to show where the village is > located. You can focus on it with a larger view, once you have found the > general area. Since people did not travel much during the old times, you > will most likely find the villages of their mates nearby. So give it a > good look on a larger view! You can then locate the one where your > ancestors came from. If you can read a map, you can find your way > through this, even though it is in the Czech language. If you key in > the website's address into the google search button, you can ask for a > translation and follow the instructions. It is a bit of detective work, > but then this is the fun of genealogy. > There is also an old Austrian Hungarian map registry which you can > access by googling: > http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm > > On these old military maps (an enlarging button and navigator is in the > right lower corner of the reduced map) all German villages are bearing > their original German names and all Czech villages are listed with their > Czech names. Since these are very old maps dating 1910 and before, you > will find more German names than Czech. But if you can find the > Longt.-Lat. coordinates, you can pinpoint every small village (even > individual houses shown by a black dot) on these old Lazarus Military > maps. They are accessible through your computer and are free. > > A word of advice! You would not want others to do this research for > you, there is personal pride involved in such a search which is highly > rewarding. You will get stuck with actual documentation, and then it > will be time to ask for research help in the Czech archives. Because > this is very expensive, this "footwork" will make the search for the > prof. genealogist shorter and less expensive to you. It is important > that you educate yourself as to the history during different centuries > and that you build a glossary for yourself to help with translations. > > I realize that you need a little guidance as to how to go about it > logically. I have found this method as something that really "works" > and it is a good way to get started. It will bring you reliable results > without chasing all over foreign websites that do not pan out. If you > key in the Czech village name into a Czech website, you most likely will > get the coordinates of the village and some photographs of the area. > Just click on the words "Photo or Gallery." > I am posting this to the List for general use. Good luck! > Aida > > PS: copy and paste these three links into a separate folder under "my > documents" for future reference, as you will use it quite often to get > "closer" to your ancestry. > > >> >>> What is the title of the published Index to theTax Rolls of 1654 for >> >> Bohemia? Sorry, if I've overlooked a cited E-mail on that question. >> Also, >> were any of the Urbarium (sp?) for Bohemia published? Specifically I'm >> looking for any property records in the Schönbach, Seifersdorf, >> Hohenelbe, >> Beneschau and Deutsch-Gabel area. I've given the German names as I'm >> still >> attempting to find the Czech diacritical marks in my fonts. >> >>> Looking for info re: Scholz, Wörfel, Heidrich, Smahal, Grützner, Erben, >> >> Kieswetter >> >>> >>> Thanks for any info, Norbert. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? >> Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >> > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To search the archives, go to: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN > > >
The title of the tax rolls is called Berni Rula and can be requested from your library. Here is the source. Berni Rula Source (Census of Bohemian Population after 30 years war 1651 - 1654 ISBN 80-7277-058-6 Author Cerveny (2003) Avialable on Interlibrary loan from Indiana University Sometimes you will have to wait a few weeks, but it is well worth it. Unfortunately, they have distorted all the original German records by translating the German names of our ancestors into Czech, especially their first names, because as you can see this record was compiled as recently as 2003. We had Heinrich, Anton and Franz under many of our German surnames. However, now they appear as Jindrich, Antonin and Frantisek under a very poorly spelled last name. This requires a bit of studying to prepare yourself for the "hunt". While my ancestors and I lived in the old Czechoslovakia, the German settlements documents were recorded in German and the Czech settlements documents were issued in Czech. For English speaking people the German is far easier to read than the Czech lettering, which is phonetic. If you go to a German website, like Yahoo, search for the German name, like Schönbach and then the word Tschechien (which means Czech Republic) and you will most likely get all the Schönbach Villages in Bohemia and Moravia. I tried it for you and I am getting these three (see listing below) from the German-Czech Village name Index which I am also giving here. The German village name is given first and the one after the colon: is the present Czech name. I don't know which one of the Schönbachs is the village where your ancestors came from. To isolate this information, you will have to go to the next step given below, see "mapy.cz" To find the new Czech name for German villages go to: http://www.tschechien-online.org/news/1452-ortsnamen-tschechien-liste-deutscher-bezeichnungen-tschechischer-orte-buchstabe-s/ a.. Schönbach (bei Deutsch Gabel): Zdislava a.. Schönbach im Erzgebirge: Meziborí a.. Schönbach (bei Wildstein): Luby After you have located the Czech village name, go to this website : www.mapy.cz find the search button type in the Czech village name and press "dalsi" (go) and a map will come up to show where the village is located. You can focus on it with a larger view, once you have found the general area. Since people did not travel much during the old times, you will most likely find the villages of their mates nearby. So give it a good look on a larger view! You can then locate the one where your ancestors came from. If you can read a map, you can find your way through this, even though it is in the Czech language. If you key in the website's address into the google search button, you can ask for a translation and follow the instructions. It is a bit of detective work, but then this is the fun of genealogy. There is also an old Austrian Hungarian map registry which you can access by googling: http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm On these old military maps (an enlarging button and navigator is in the right lower corner of the reduced map) all German villages are bearing their original German names and all Czech villages are listed with their Czech names. Since these are very old maps dating 1910 and before, you will find more German names than Czech. But if you can find the Longt.-Lat. coordinates, you can pinpoint every small village (even individual houses shown by a black dot) on these old Lazarus Military maps. They are accessible through your computer and are free. A word of advice! You would not want others to do this research for you, there is personal pride involved in such a search which is highly rewarding. You will get stuck with actual documentation, and then it will be time to ask for research help in the Czech archives. Because this is very expensive, this "footwork" will make the search for the prof. genealogist shorter and less expensive to you. It is important that you educate yourself as to the history during different centuries and that you build a glossary for yourself to help with translations. I realize that you need a little guidance as to how to go about it logically. I have found this method as something that really "works" and it is a good way to get started. It will bring you reliable results without chasing all over foreign websites that do not pan out. If you key in the Czech village name into a Czech website, you most likely will get the coordinates of the village and some photographs of the area. Just click on the words "Photo or Gallery." I am posting this to the List for general use. Good luck! Aida PS: copy and paste these three links into a separate folder under "my documents" for future reference, as you will use it quite often to get "closer" to your ancestry. > >>What is the title of the published Index to theTax Rolls of 1654 for > Bohemia? Sorry, if I've overlooked a cited E-mail on that question. > Also, > were any of the Urbarium (sp?) for Bohemia published? Specifically I'm > looking for any property records in the Schönbach, Seifersdorf, Hohenelbe, > Beneschau and Deutsch-Gabel area. I've given the German names as I'm still > attempting to find the Czech diacritical marks in my fonts. > >>Looking for info re: Scholz, Wörfel, Heidrich, Smahal, Grützner, Erben, > Kieswetter >> >>Thanks for any info, Norbert. >> >> >> > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? > Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >
Getting copies of originals when it comes to census is pretty important. The Tax Rolls of 1654 - one of the first census after the end of the 30 years war are indexed and the indexed data was published in 2002. There are problems using this very old census as a first search. First, the index has mistakes and omissions. In addition the 1654 tax rolls name ONLY the people with enough property to pay taxes. If a name is missing it does not mean the name was not found in Bohemia in 1654 - it may mean only that the surname belonged to someone who was still trying to develop his property under the "no tax" incentives offered new settlers. If you use the index available via interlibrary loan in the US to try to find an ancestral birthplace it may be very helpful. It is alphabetized by surname. The problem is that many of the German surnames have a Czech spelling that might change a first letter "G" to a "K" or even something else. Many that are in German have old spellings that may only have one or two letters and the overall sound of the name in common with the present name (my modern Grosams were called Grausamb in 1654). Czech names may also have older Czech spellings that make them hard to recognize except by sound (I am not very well informed about Czech surnames). If you use the index to the 1654 tax rolls and find a number of villages with surnames that resemble your ancestral names close enough to be a good guess, try to find the villages on a map or get their latitude and longitude from Shtetl Seeker on line. (Remember the villages may also have alterned spellings of their names.) The locate them on a map. If your ancestors were German concetrate on the villages in majority German areas. If they were Czeh concentrate on places in the fringes of German areas or in the mostly-Czech interior of Bohemia. Select the places in your order of preference. One way to do that may be to look for more than one surname that you believe were probably from the same place. If you find a place with both those names in 1654 that makes it a good guess. If you find a place quite close to another place and one of the names is found in each, that makes both of them a good guess. The new settlers were there because the 30 years war and the expulsions of protestants who were unwilling to convert at the wars end left Bohemia / Moravia with a population of less thaqn 1, 000,000. Count von Lutzow (Czech historian) says in his book "Bohemia, an Historical Sketch" that the population before the war was 3,000,.000 and after it ended only 800.000. A large number of new settlers were from Germany (various German dominons) although many parts of Germany were also devastated by the war and had little population to spare. Some may have come from Saxony or Silesia, too. ( I have only studied the Germans who settled in some small sections of western Bohemia during that period.) The originals of the tax rolls of 1654 are in the various archives of the CR. If the Czech Census Searchers can get them and you know a place or places you would like them to search, ask them to see if your surname(s) are on that census. If you have used the index published in 2002, tell them whether you found anything there and on what page. If you did not find the surname(s)
>What is the title of the published Index to theTax Rolls of 1654 for Bohemia? Sorry, if I've overlooked a cited E-mail on that question. Also, were any of the Urbarium (sp?) for Bohemia published? Specifically I'm looking for any property records in the Sch�nbach, Seifersdorf, Hohenelbe, Beneschau and Deutsch-Gabel area. I've given the German names as I'm still attempting to find the Czech diacritical marks in my fonts. >Looking for info re: Scholz, W�rfel, Heidrich, Smahal, Gr�tzner, Erben, Kieswetter > >Thanks for any info, Norbert. > > >
As requested down here a tranlation including the actual czech names of the places. Since I am interested in this area too, I would be thankful for any help or connetion related to the names Waldmann, Wilhelm, Pauly, Aschenbrenner, Mundl, and the places Olchowitz, Freihöls, Grün. --- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --- > Von: "randy mathes" <RANDALMATHES@peoplepc.com> > An: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com > Betreff: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] help with translation > Datum: Sat, 6 May 2006 16:21:08 -0500 > > translation for this page please: > Kirchenbuchverzeichnis des Pfarrbezirks Neuern, - Parrish register of the parrish district Neuern (Nyrsko) > mit Pfarrorten: Neuern, Bistritz, Dörstein, Freihöls, Glashütten, - with the parish locations (villages): Neuern (Nyrsko), Bistriz (Bystřice nad Úhlavou), Dörstein (Suchý Kámen), Freihöls (Stará Lhota), Glashütten (Skelná Hut?), > Hinterhäuser, Holletitz, Hoslau, Kohlheim, Millik, Starlitz; - Hinterhäuser (Zadní Chalupy), Holletitz (Hodousice), Hoslau (Hvodany / Blata?), Kohlheim (Uhlite), Millik (Milence), Starlitz (Starý Laz); > dazu ab 1654-1848: Ober Neuern, Unter Neuern, - in addition from 1654-1848: Ober Neuern (Horní Nýrsko), Unter Neuern ([Dolní] Nýrsko), > Hammern (nur Vorderhammern), St. Katharina, - Hammern (Hamry) (Vorderhamern [Přední Hamry] only), St. Katharina (Svatá Kateřina), > Deschenitz, Depoldowitz, Olchowitz, Todlau, Dorrstadt, - Deschenitz (Deenice), Depoldowitz (Depoldovice), Olchowitz (Oldřichovice), Todlau (Datelov), Dorrstadt (Městitě), > Grün, Schießnetitz, Mottowitz, Eisenstraß. - Grün (Zelená Lhota), Schießnetitz (iznětice), Mottowotiz, Eisenstraß (Hojsova Strá). > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To browse the archives, go to: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ > -- Searching Rosmarin, Romarin (Slovenia), Romarin (Wallonia), Waldmann (Bohemia), Kirchsteiger (Styria), Lackner (Radenthein/Carinthia) Please join the "Rosmarin"- name-list if appropriate: http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/surname/r/rosmarin.html GMX Produkte empfehlen und ganz einfach Geld verdienen! Satte Provisionen für GMX Partner: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/partner
Randy, There is not much to translate, since 90% of the words are town names that it is not customary to translate, and would not be helpful. It would be a little like translating "des Moines" to "The Monks" or "San Francisco" to "Saint Francis." Kirchenbuch is rather obviously "Churchbook," "Zeichnis" is "a reckoning" (in the sense of a counting"), so Kirchenbuchverzeichnis is Church Book List/Index/Register. "Pfarr" is the German cognate for English Parish; bezirk means "district" or "surrounding area" (cognate of "becircled'), so would be rather redundant in English "Parish District." "Neu" (pron. "noy") has a common origin with English "new," having evolved from Greek "neo," pronounced "NAY-o" and Latin "nova," pronounced "NO-wa." Neuern is plural. "Ort" means place, site, or location. Please see the red type insertons in your original msg. below: --ah randy mathes <RANDALMATHES@peoplepc.com> wrote: translation for this page please: Kirchenbuchverzeichnis des Pfarrbezirks Neuern, mit Pfarrorten: Church Registers of the Parishes of Neuern, with Parish locations: [This is the only operative phrase really necessary to translate]: Neuern [place of the Newcomers?], Bistritz [a surname], Dörstein [Dör {family}Stone], Freihöls [Freehold; Free Wood], Glashütten, Hinterhäuser [place of the one in the back {hind} house], Holletitz, Hoslau [place of Hos {surname}], Kohlheim [Kohl Home -- home of Kohl {surname}], Millik, Starlitz; dazu ab 1654-1848: [from {thereto} 1654 to 1848] Ober Neuern, [Upper Neuern] Unter Neuern, [Lower Neuern] Hammern (nur Vorderhammern) [only Front Hammern or Fore Hammern], St. Katharina [St. Katherine], Deschenitz, Depoldowitz [place of the son of Depold], Olchowitz [{place of} the son of Olch], Todlau [place of the dead], Dorrstadt [Dorr City], Grün [Green], Schießnetitz, Mottowitz [place of the son of Mott], Eisenstraß [Iron street, perhaps a var. of Eisenbahn, railroad]. I translated the above town names (according to my interpretation w/o doing any research) merely so you might have a better understanding of the German language for the future. You can see how they are named after geographic features, saints, and settlers, historic events, etc. just like in every other country. Those not translated are probably just metonyms for the first or main settler's surname. Hope this helps. Anthony ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the list? To browse the archives, go to: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ --------------------------------- Get amazing travel prices for air and hotel in one click on Yahoo! FareChase
In a message dated 5/6/2006 3:21:33 PM Mountain Standard Time, RANDALMATHES@peoplepc.com writes: translation for this page please: Kirchenbuchverzeichnis des Pfarrbezirks Neuern, mit Pfarrorten: Neuern, Bistritz, Dörstein, Freihöls, Glashütten, Hinterhäuser, Holletitz, Hoslau, Kohlheim, Millik, Starlitz; dazu ab 1654-1848: Ober Neuern, Unter Neuern, Hammern (nur Vorderhammern), St. Katharina, Deschenitz, Depoldowitz, Olchowitz, Todlau, Dorrstadt, Grün, Schießnetitz, Mottowitz, Eisenstraß. It is just a list of place names of parish communities for which there are some chuch books available in Czech archives. If there was a link associated with the list or if you can click on each place name it will probably show a detailed list of what years are available for that place. If you don't know the name of your ancestral village in German you may be able to find an Internet reference at a website associated with the county or district the places are in. Karen
I received the following reply regarding how much copies of original pages would cost without translation: "We're currently unable to provide photocopies of the original records: the Czech archives made a new law which requires professional researchers to pay approximately $60 per photocopy. Since each census record requires a minimum of 4 photocopies, that would be $240 just to photocopy one census record." I received an e-mail based on a specific census request in a few days. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: KarenHob@aol.com<mailto:KarenHob@aol.com> To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com<mailto:GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Czech Census Searchers In a message dated 5/5/2006 4:51:27 PM Mountain Standard Time, RANDALMATHES@peoplepc.com<mailto:RANDALMATHES@peoplepc.com> writes: how does one get the services of these people at czechcensus.tripod.com? The problem with Email is that you never know if anyone received your message. Since the only contact there seems to be for them, you may have to use snail mail to contact them if they do not reply to a 2nd or 3rd Email reminding them that you are waiting for them to acknowledge that they have received the message. If you ever get a FAX number, that may be the best way to go. From the data at their website I would guess that you should send a specific request regarding which years of census you want searched, for which places and for which names. I noticed that they charge $30 per household per census for translation but I did not see how much copies of original pages would cost without translation. Karen ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the list? To browse the archives, go to: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/<http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/>
In a message dated 4/20/2006 2:05:15 PM Mountain Standard Time, pedrodrimel@gmail.com writes: I'm Brazilian and I'm started to looking for relatives DRIMEL, so using google I found on this link http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/database/databaseag.html Franz Drimel borned in 1830 on Neu Waldek (Nový Valdek in czech), Zwittau... Nowadays Zwittau is Svytavy and Nový Valdek is a independent village 7km far from Svitavy. Could someone help me ? Thanks! Franz Drimel can be my grandgrandgrandfather so I have to find some documents. Dear Pedro, You need to ask a Czech researcher to go to the archive for Zwittau church records and find out more about Franz -- who his parents were and if he had any children born in Zwittau/ New Waldek. Zwittau may have had the parish church for the other village and the records would be there. A good researcher will be able to find out if New Waldek had its own parish church and records. There is a website that may tell you what church records are available at http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/SUD/kreise.html Click on the letter Z and find Zwittau (in Moravia). There will be other information there but it may not give the list of church records. A researcher who lives in Moravia is cubasmith@email.cz Jakub Smid Jablonova 63 City: Brno State: 621 00 Country: Czech Republic He is very good and thorough. If you know the names of your ancestor's brothers or sisters it would help. Church records are the first search when you have a place of birth. Sometimes you can find other places of birth for the same name if you look for civil records like census indexes and military recruitment rolls. Karen Hobbs Colorado springs
translation for this page please: Kirchenbuchverzeichnis des Pfarrbezirks Neuern, mit Pfarrorten: Neuern, Bistritz, Dörstein, Freihöls, Glashütten, Hinterhäuser, Holletitz, Hoslau, Kohlheim, Millik, Starlitz; dazu ab 1654-1848: Ober Neuern, Unter Neuern, Hammern (nur Vorderhammern), St. Katharina, Deschenitz, Depoldowitz, Olchowitz, Todlau, Dorrstadt, Grün, Schießnetitz, Mottowitz, Eisenstraß.
The following was posted on a list for scholars of German and Canadian Americans. It mentions the Germans of Braunfels, Texas -- many of whom were German-Bohemians from Bohemia and Moravia. A search of the Internet with CSUMC mentioned below got some very interesting hits about ethnic groups in Wisconsin, the Max Kade Institute and other sites. Karen In a message dated 5/6/2006 12:16:10 PM Mountain Standard Time, jsalmons@WISC.EDU writes: Dear H-GAGCS readers, With the author's permission, I'm cross-posting Walter Kamphoefner's H-Ethnic comments on the current controversy in the U.S. about the singing of the Star-spangled Banner in languages other than English. (By the way, an image of the German translation has recently been used as a book cover for a volume he co-edited: http:// csumc.wisc.edu/mki/Publications/1.PublicationsFrames.htm . Just scroll down to the Kamphoefner & Helbich volume.) Beyond the news value, Walter's post naturally reminds us of how basic historical facts can be ignored in political debate. The study of German-speaking immigrants in North America is especially relevant for how it could help inform those current controversies. Joe Salmons From: jmcclyme <jmcclyme@ASSUMPTION.EDU> List Editor: jmcclyme <jmcclyme@ASSUMPTION.EDU> Editor's Subject: H-ethnic: Star-Spangled banner query Author's Subject: H-ethnic: Star-Spangled banner query Date Written: Mon, 1 May 2006 15:15:44 -0400 Date Posted: Mon, 1 May 2006 15:15:44 -0400 Commentators on the current immigration controversy from the president on down are sorely in need of some historical context on immigration in general, and the National Anthem in Spanish translation in particular. Translations of the Star Spangled Banner go back over 150 years, and our history demonstrates the foolishness of automatically equating English with loyalty or foreign languages with disloyalty. <http://memory.loc.gov/cocoon/ihas/loc.rbc.as.113160/ default.html>http://mem ory.loc.gov/cocoon/ihas/loc.rbc.as.113160/default.html O! Sagt, könnt ihr seh¹n in des Morgenroths Strahl, Was so stolz wir im scheidenden Abendroth grüßten? Die Sterne, die Streifen, die wehend vom Wall, Im tödlichen Kampf uns den Anblick versüßten? Hoch flattere die Fahne in herrlicher Pracht, Beim leuchten der Bomben durch dunkle Nacht. O! Sagt, ob das Banner, mit Sternen besä¹t Uber¹m Lande der Freien und Braven noch weht? This lively translation, true to the spirit of the original but not slavishly literal, originated in 1851 from the pen of a Texas German, but it caught on in the ethnic community and hung on for more than half a century. The presumed translator is Hermann Seele, the first mayor of New Braunfels, Texas, who published a very similar text in 1851 for a Galveston celebration where the Declaration of Independence was also read in translation. The image above (a Library of Congress rare document) is obviously of Civil War vintage, and based upon the publisher's address it must have been issued in 1862 or 1863. Immigrants made up one quarter of the Union army, Germans alone one tenth. Many of them served in ethnic regiments where German was sometimes used as the language of command as late as 1863. But even if (and perhaps because) they were singing the Star Spangled Banner auf Deutsch, they understood the core principles of the United States better than many Anglophones of American birth who were whistling ³Dixie.² Even neo-Confederates should be grateful that they did their part to save this great nation from being divided into a second rate power and a banana republic. The Sternbanner song also shows up in an 1890 choral book published for the youth of the Evangelisch-Lutherischen Synode von Ohio (and is reproduced in Willi Paul Adams, The German-Americans: An Ethnic Experience [Indianapolis, 1993], p. 41). The only protest against the translated anthem that I am aware of came during World War I. In May 1917, novelist Booth Tarkington and other prominent citizens of Indianapolis brought a petition protesting the fact that, in the bilingual public schools of their city, the Star Spangled Banner was being sung in German translation! (Frances Ellis, "German Instruction in the Public Schools of Indianapolis, 1869-1919." Indiana Magazine of History 50 (1954): 372). Depending on one's point of view, this could be seen either as an outrageous example of the lengths to which presumptuous German-Americans would go in promoting their ethnic culture, or as a reassuring sign that patriotism and political loyalties are totally independent of mother tongue. Either way, it is an illustration that the image of rapid and complete German-American assimilation often encountered today is at best a serious oversimplification if not entirely off base. An important point about the German Sternbanner is that it truly grew out of an immigrant culture, and continued to be an active part of that culture. The Spanish translation from ca. 1920 was, to judge by the name of the translator, an outside effort that was probably part of the Americanization movement. The Yiddish translations I have encountered appear to have more genuine folk roots. These are the only languages in which I am aware of a national anthem translation. [my literal re-translation of the translation: O say can you see in the morning¹s red rays What so proudly in the fading twilight we saluted? The stars and stripes, which waving from the wall In the deathly fight sweetened our view. May the flag wave high in magnificent splendor By the flashes of bombs through the dark night. O say, does that banner, with stars bestrewn O¹er the land of the free and the brave still wave ] Walter Kamphoefner Director of Graduate Studies Department of History Texas A&M University
In a message dated 5/5/2006 4:51:27 PM Mountain Standard Time, RANDALMATHES@peoplepc.com writes: how does one get the services of these people at czechcensus.tripod.com? The problem with Email is that you never know if anyone received your message. Since the only contact there seems to be for them, you may have to use snail mail to contact them if they do not reply to a 2nd or 3rd Email reminding them that you are waiting for them to acknowledge that they have received the message. If you ever get a FAX number, that may be the best way to go. From the data at their website I would guess that you should send a specific request regarding which years of census you want searched, for which places and for which names. I noticed that they charge $30 per household per census for translation but I did not see how much copies of original pages would cost without translation. Karen
Last line of the translation is - quite unfortunately - a total "mis-hit" .... Quoting the last line of the translated hymn: Uber¹m Lande der Freien und Braven noch weht? Die Braven (plural, noun) means in the German language = the well mannered, well-bred, well-behaved, the good, the polite, the cultivated, the honest and the worthy, the gracious, the tactful, respectful, genteel and while it can mean obliging it can also mean house-broken...... BUT IT DOES NOT MEAN WHAT OUR ANTHEM IMPLIES: the brave = which means the courageous, the gallant, the stalwart, the valiant, the one with a stout heart, the venturesome, the fearless, a person with fortitude, hardiness, daring, one with lots of mettle, spunk and true grit! Hence, I can clearly see how opinion are formed within an entire ethnic group ..... or what is seen as more important in their "brave societies," and how even characters are formed by such traits. Obviously this translation shows it.................. Lets all smile, smirk, or have a belly laugh! Aida PS I might have poked into a beehive here, so please spare the List your gripes and send them directly to me: akibb1@verizon.net ---------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: <KarenHob@aol.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 11:35 AM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Historic Star Spangled Banner auf Deutsch!! > The following was posted on a list for scholars of German and Canadian > Americans. It mentions the Germans of Braunfels, Texas -- many of whom > were > German-Bohemians from Bohemia and Moravia. > > A search of the Internet with CSUMC mentioned below got some very > interesting hits about ethnic groups in Wisconsin, the Max Kade Institute > and other > sites. > > Karen > > In a message dated 5/6/2006 12:16:10 PM Mountain Standard Time, > jsalmons@WISC.EDU writes: > Dear H-GAGCS readers, > With the author's permission, I'm cross-posting Walter Kamphoefner's > H-Ethnic comments on the current controversy in the U.S. about the > singing of the Star-spangled Banner in languages other than English. > (By the way, an image of the German translation has recently been > used as a book cover for a volume he co-edited: http:// > csumc.wisc.edu/mki/Publications/1.PublicationsFrames.htm . Just > scroll down to the Kamphoefner & Helbich volume.) > > Beyond the news value, Walter's post naturally reminds us of how > basic historical facts can be ignored in political debate. The study > of German-speaking immigrants in North America is especially relevant > for how it could help inform those current controversies. > > Joe Salmons > > > From: jmcclyme <jmcclyme@ASSUMPTION.EDU> > List Editor: jmcclyme <jmcclyme@ASSUMPTION.EDU> > Editor's Subject: H-ethnic: Star-Spangled banner query > Author's Subject: H-ethnic: Star-Spangled banner query > Date Written: Mon, 1 May 2006 15:15:44 -0400 > Date Posted: Mon, 1 May 2006 15:15:44 -0400 > > Commentators on the current immigration controversy from the > president on > down are sorely in need of some historical context on immigration in > general, and the National Anthem in Spanish translation in particular. > Translations of the Star Spangled Banner go back over 150 years, and our > history demonstrates the foolishness of automatically equating > English with > loyalty or foreign languages with disloyalty. > > <http://memory.loc.gov/cocoon/ihas/loc.rbc.as.113160/ > default.html>http://mem > ory.loc.gov/cocoon/ihas/loc.rbc.as.113160/default.html > > > O! Sagt, könnt ihr seh¹n in des Morgenroths Strahl, > Was so stolz wir im scheidenden Abendroth grüßten? > Die Sterne, die Streifen, die wehend vom Wall, > Im tödlichen Kampf uns den Anblick versüßten? > Hoch flattere die Fahne in herrlicher Pracht, > Beim leuchten der Bomben durch dunkle Nacht. > O! Sagt, ob das Banner, mit Sternen besä¹t > Uber¹m Lande der Freien und Braven noch weht? > > This lively translation, true to the spirit of the original > but > not slavishly literal, originated in 1851 from the pen of a Texas > German, > but it caught on in the ethnic community and hung on for more than > half a > century. The presumed translator is Hermann Seele, the first mayor of > New > Braunfels, Texas, who published a very similar text in 1851 for a > Galveston > celebration where the Declaration of Independence was also read in > translation. The image above (a Library of Congress rare document) is > obviously of Civil War vintage, and based upon the publisher's > address it > must have been issued in 1862 or 1863. Immigrants made up one quarter of > the Union army, Germans alone one tenth. Many of them served in ethnic > regiments where German was sometimes used as the language of command as > late as 1863. But even if (and perhaps because) they were singing the > Star > Spangled Banner auf Deutsch, they understood the core principles of the > United States better than many Anglophones of American birth who were > whistling ³Dixie.² Even neo-Confederates should be grateful that they > did > their part to save this great nation from being divided into a second > rate > power and a banana republic. > The Sternbanner song also shows up in an 1890 choral book > published for the youth of the Evangelisch-Lutherischen Synode von Ohio > (and is reproduced in Willi Paul Adams, The German-Americans: An Ethnic > Experience [Indianapolis, 1993], p. 41). > The only protest against the translated anthem that I am > aware of > came during World War I. In May 1917, novelist Booth Tarkington and > other > prominent citizens of Indianapolis brought a petition protesting the > fact > that, in the bilingual public schools of their city, the Star Spangled > Banner was being sung in German translation! (Frances Ellis, "German > Instruction in the Public Schools of Indianapolis, 1869-1919." Indiana > Magazine of History 50 (1954): 372). Depending on one's point of > view, this > could be seen either as an outrageous example of the lengths to which > presumptuous German-Americans would go in promoting their ethnic > culture, > or as a reassuring sign that patriotism and political loyalties are > totally > independent of mother tongue. Either way, it is an illustration that the > image of rapid and complete German-American assimilation often > encountered > today is at best a serious oversimplification if not entirely off base. > An important point about the German Sternbanner is that it > truly > grew out of an immigrant culture, and continued to be an active part of > that culture. The Spanish translation from ca. 1920 was, to judge by the > name of the translator, an outside effort that was probably part of the > Americanization movement. The Yiddish translations I have encountered > appear to have more genuine folk roots. These are the only languages in > which I am aware of a national anthem translation. > > [my literal re-translation of the translation: > O say can you see in the morning¹s red rays > What so proudly in the fading twilight we saluted? > The stars and stripes, which waving from the wall > In the deathly fight sweetened our view. > May the flag wave high in magnificent splendor > By the flashes of bombs through the dark night. > O say, does that banner, with stars bestrewn > O¹er the land of the free and the brave still wave ] > > > Walter Kamphoefner > Director of Graduate Studies > Department of History > Texas A&M University > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To search the archives, go to: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN >
Yes, Cathy, I agree. It is a very interesting article. I just wish they had shown more houses from the Midwest. LaVerne LaVerne, Researching BACHMANN, BOEHMKE, HEMMANN, HEINEMANN, LANDL, LINHARDT, OTTO, PIETSCHMANN, ROEHL, SEHLER, SIEVERS, TELLE, ZACHARIAE, ZEITLER
how does one get the services of these people at czechcensus.tripod.com? i have gone into their sight and sent them a message, but to date have not heard back from them, maybe because of all the commotion on here about them , they have become ovewhelmed with interest/requests ----- Original Message ----- From: <SocksMyCat@aol.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 5:07 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Czech Census Searchers > Just to let you know that they seem to be very honest. I contacted them > several weeks ago, with the details about my ancestors. They replied that > the > census records for the areas I was interested in were not available for > the years > I needed. They did not charge for the search. > > In a message dated 4/28/2006 4:49:34 PM Central Daylight Time, > helen@wtoram.co.uk writes: > In message <002101c66b00$91b07330$0200a8c0@DEN>, gpokorny > <gpokorny@cox.net> writes >>I have used these researchers for several years with excellent results. >>They >>are trustworthy, thorough, and reliable. Due to new Czech laws they may >>not any >>longer be able to provide you with photocopies of the actual census sheets > but >>will provide you with transcripts and translations. >>Their web address is http://czechcensus.tripod.com/. >> >>Gerold Pokorny >> >> > Hello Gerold, > I had some census information from them 2 weeks ago and it included > photocopies of the actual census plus the translation. > -- > Helen Oram > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To search the archives, go to: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN >
Hello If anyone is interested, the June issue of Old House Journal magazine has a very interesting eight-page article, "Germanic Houses in the New World", with lots of photos and tips on identifying German-American houses. Cathy
Hi, Karen Thank you so much! I will try to contact him. I know that Aschenbrenners and others were "re-located" from Markt Eisenstein, Bohemia to this part of Germany after WWII. Susan ----- Original Message ----- From: <KarenHob@aol.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 10:07 AM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Aschenbrenner >I recall inquiryn about the name Aschenbrenner. > > I found this reference to a photographer with that name > at: > > http://www.boehmen-reisen.de/index.php?presse_bilder.html > Foto: Erwin Aschenbrenner > Dechbettener Str. 47 b > 93049 Regensburg > Tel: 0049-(0)941-26080; Fax: -26081 > A lot of German Bohemians live in Regensburg and nearby. > > Karen > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To search the archives, go to: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN > >
From Rootsweb Review RootsWeb Review: RootsWeb's Weekly E-zine 3 May 2006, Vol. 9, No. 18 (c) 1998-2006 RootsWeb.com, Inc. http://www.rootsweb.com/ 1c. USING ROOTSWEB: Exploring the SS-5 Now that you have found Aunt Grace in the RootsWeb SSDI (Social Security Death Index) (http://ssdi.rootsweb.com/), what's next? Let's assume you wish to send away to the Social Security Administration for information included on Grace's SS-5 (Application for a Social Security Number). This information is available under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) for deceased individuals. To request Aunt Grace's data, click on the link that says "SS-5 Letter" under the Tools column on the line with her SSDI listing at RootsWeb. You will find a preprinted request letter with her Social Security number and other pertinent information already typed in for you. Print the letter and enclose a check for $27 and mail it to the address provided on the request form. You can also request the SS-5 information without the Social Security number, but it costs $29 in such cases. What information can you hope to learn from the SS-5? You can expect to receive a printout from the microfilm of the items on the SS-5. It probably will provide the following information: --Full name --Full name at birth (including maiden name) --Present mailing address (at time the application was made) --Age at last birthday --Date of birth --Place of birth (city, county, state) --Father's full name "regardless of whether living or dead" --Mother's full name, including maiden name, "regardless of whether living or dead" Many of the requests being made for old SS-5 application data will include the information the person provided to obtain his or her Social Security Number originally -- based upon the questions asked on the old form. The items originally found on the SS-5 application when Social Security first began can be viewed on the Social Security website: http://www.ssa.gov/history/ssn/ss5.html Keep in mind that birthdates and other information supplied by the applicant were generally not verified at the time of application on the older applications--but rather, proof was submitted at the time the individual or his family members applied for benefits on his account. The information on the SS-5 may or may not be 100 percent accurate. Besides requesting SS-5 information, what other data can you obtain from SSA? Requests for Computer Extracts of Social Security Number Applica- tions, called Numidents, may be made at a charge of $16 -- if the SSN is provided and $18 if the SSN is not provided. The Numident has limited information but it does include name changes for married women. This information is not found on the original SS-5 forms. Many Numident records of older individuals, primarily those born in 1910 or earlier, are abbreviated records that do not contain the names of the individual's parents and may not contain the place of birth. While it happens infrequently, there have been cases where only the Numident form still exists. The SSA will also search for information about the death of an individual for a fee of $16 if the SSN is provided, and $18 if it isn't. Note that SSA does not usually have the place of death, burial, or cause of death. It will not search for the Social Security number of anyone born before 1865. SSA attempts to handle request within 20 (working) days from the date it is received. However, it may take longer depending on the difficulty of finding the record and depending upon the current case load. Requests are processed on a "first in" "first out" basis.
I recall inquiryn about the name Aschenbrenner. I found this reference to a photographer with that name at: http://www.boehmen-reisen.de/index.php?presse_bilder.html Foto: Erwin Aschenbrenner Dechbettener Str. 47 b 93049 Regensburg Tel: 0049-(0)941-26080; Fax: -26081 A lot of German Bohemians live in Regensburg and nearby. Karen
Planned website to archive historical artifacts in Houston. A lot of German-Bohemians passed through Houston (some stayed) on their way to settling farms in Texas. Whether it will contain information associated with European immigration is not clear. http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/tech/news/3808986.html Technology News April 21, 2006, 1:58AM Virtual home for historical artifacts Digital museum aspires to make old documents more accessible By ALEXIS GRANT Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle Without a local history museum, Houston has lacked a place to bring together the city's documents and artifacts — until now. A new kind of exhibit is in the works: a digital museum, intended to make historical resources more accessible. The museum will exist not in a building, but on a Web site featuring photos, maps, audio recordings, videos, letters, publications and other documents. About 15 organizations, including local universities, libraries and museums, are planning to contribute resources to the online project, which is being coordinated by the Greater Houston Preservation Alliance. "We're hoping it's going to make a lot of materials available that were not easily accessible before and to a whole range of people, whether it's school kids or serious scholars," said David Bush, information director at GHPA. Initially funded by a $350,000 grant from the Houston Endowment Inc., the project is still in the early stages, and it's expected to take years to complete. The Web site, www.museumofhouston.org, gives examples of what's to come, including photos of an early Houston City Hall and courthouse, and journal entries from famous Texans. The site's first major exhibit, on the history of the Port of Houston, is scheduled to be completed by next spring. Public input encouraged Organizers hope families will come forward with personal records, such as letters, invitations and photographs, to add to the online collection. Virtual museums are becoming more popular across the country, partly because they can be viewed by a large audience without damaging original documents. They allow researchers to sift through archives and artifacts without setting foot in a museum. That's just the problem, some Houston historians say. A digital storehouse is not an adequate substitute for a bricks-and-mortar history museum, said Betty Chapman, a historian and author who is working on site content. Houston has several specialized history museums, including the National Museum of Funeral History and the Holocaust Museum Houston, as well as the Heritage Society Museum, which exhibits local historical artifacts and structures. "I would still like to see an actual museum here," said Chapman, director of the city of Houston's new History Task Force, which is expected to release its first report on local historical resources next month. "I'm not sure seeing the art online is a total substitute for going to the museum and seeing it on the wall." Others say an online museum is a more realistic and reliable option than a physical site, which would be expensive to build and maintain. "I don't know it would ever work out that we could count on the continued maintenance of a local metropolitan museum," said Dick Dickerson, an archivist at the University of Houston who's helping create the Web site. Besides, he added, "people want immediate gratification, they want to be able to pull up these images at home." Hope to inspire researchers Those involved with the project hope it will inspire researchers to visit institutions where they can view artifacts in their original form. Among the custodians of city archives are Rice University's Fondren Library, Harris County Archives, University of Houston libraries and the Museum of Fine Arts. "I know everything can't be put up online, so if we put a good representation of the documents and artifacts that would draw people into the repositories," said Lee Pecht, an archivist at Rice University who is involved with the project. Organizers acknowledge the project will require more than the two full-time employees they plan to hire. The Preservation Alliance soon will be looking for volunteers, and hopes to secure another grant to hire more staff. alexis.grant@chron.com