----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Ullman" <ullman@easystreet.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 12:31 PM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Thirty Years' War depopulation figures > It appears that I have been missing the boat on how to respond to > postings from others. So I will try this approach. Hope I have not > incovenienced anyone with my misdirected responses in the past. And I > would be glad to hear whether I am sending this message to the proper > location or not. > > I fully agree with Karen Hobbs' suggestion that in pursuing one's 17th > century ancestors it is of utmost importance to become familiar with some > of the historical background. The Thirty Years' War has been described by > some historians as "the first world war," and it brought with it all the > dislocations and stresses of any other world war. Understanding that > might lead a family historian to look about for possiblities which s/he > might not otherwise have considered. For example, some of our ancestors > undoubtedly became camp followers during the war. That became a way of > life and when the war ended many may have felt as did one individual in > Olmutz, Moravia that "I was born in war, I have no home, no country and no > friends, war is all my wealth and now whither shall I go? For some of our > ancestors this meant wandering the roads as some of the freed American > slaves did following the end of the Civil War. Eventually they had to > settle somewhere. We may never know wher! > e they were born. Or who their parents were. Or if it really matters - > many young girls were de-flowered by soldiers and outlaws during this war. > To assist those who may not know a great deal about this > recently-rediscovered war, I have spent a little time with my books and > can respond to some of Karen's comments concerning population loss during > the Thirty Years' War. Specifially, she stated that "The new settlers > were there because the 30 years war and the expulsions of protestants who > were unwilling to convert at the wars end left Bohemia / Moravia with a > population of less than 1, 000,000. Count von Lutzow (Czech historian) > says in his book "Bohemia, an Historical Sketch" that the population > before the war was 3,000,.000 and after it ended only 800.000." Now, it > is true that the Count was, for very many years, the often-quoted > authority on the subject of population loss during the Thirty Years' War. > However, modern scholars have come to question his numbers. > As early as 1961, C.V. Wedgwood stated in her classic, and extremely > readable, study The Thirty Years' War that "The incredible decrease in > population claimed for so many districts was to some extent the outcome of > temporary emigration, and a careful consideration of conditions in Germany > both before and after the war reveals the fact that society was dislocated > rather than destroyed. But the marks of that dislocation remained long > after the limbs had been re-integrated....The old legend that the > population dropped from sixteen to four million people (these figures > represent all of Germany (with the exceptions which follow in her > quotation), i.e. all of the German principalities of the time as well as > the Habsburg Crown Lands), rests on imagination: both figures are > incorrect. The German Empire, including Alsace but excluding the > Netherlands and Bohemia, probably numbered about twenty-one millions in > 1618, and rather less than thirteen and a half millions in 1648. Ce! > rtain authorities believe that the loss was less, but the figures, which > have been confused over the generations by propaganda of different kinds, > are extremely difficult to establish with any certainty." > In his book, serf, seigneur, and sovereign, William E. Wright notes, as > Karen also has said, that "During the war many peasants had taken flight > before marauding armies, leaving their land and forsaking their rights to > it....To the already generous grants from Ferdinand II, his creatures > added even more by seizure of untended, previously serf-held > acreage....Fugitive serfs and discharged soldiers, torn from their social > moorings and lacking employment, roamed the land....Because of the general > feeling of insecurity in the kingdom and the conduct of some of the > fugitives, the Bohemian serf was considered a lawless, or potentially > lawless, churl who should be closely bound to the land and strictly > controlled by the lord of the area.... In other words, many people were > displaced (rather than killed) during the war, and while some certainly > returned to their villages after the war, others took to roaming the > countryside, often as outlaws (my own ancestor is shown in The Tax! > Rolls of 1654 as a schutz [shooter, guard, protector] which means his job > was to protect against such individuals) leading the authorities to pass > laws confining the serf's movement and tying him tightly to the land - > whether it was the land he had been on at the start of the war or not. > In his more recent (1984) study of the war (The Thirty Years' War) > Geoffrey Parker cites the example of Linden, a village near Rothenburg, > which "in 1618...had a total of nine taxable peasant households, plus four > landless peasants....By 1641...the village was uninhabited--and it > remained so for the rest of the war. But Linden did not become a > permanent ghost village. In the decades following the war, settlers > returned, and by 1690 the village had eleven peasant holdings--bringing > it, in short, back to its pre-war size." Parker does not relate, or > probably know, where the new settlers came from. Were they new > inhabitants or former villagers returning to their homes? Or a > combination? He does note, however, that "Historians can pinpoint > hundreds of depopulated villages and reduced cities -- along with hundreds > of towns and villages which survived the war almost intact." He goes on > to explain that "There is no doubt, however, that central Europe did > experience a gen! > eration of substantial demographic decline. The exact causes of the > population loss cannot always be determined, but one thing is certain: > deaths due to military action represented only a minor element in the > total picture (study their weapons: are you kidding me? How could they > hit anything?!). War-related food shortages and outbreaks of epidemic > disease were much greater killers. The most spectacular episodes of > mortality were due to the bubonic plague, which broke out in many parts of > central Europe during the war....Many epidemic diseases were spread by the > movement of infected soldiers or civilians (a well-known cry concerning > the army of one general in the war was "God help those where Mansfield > comes!"), but the plague was not among them. For bubonic plague is > actually a disease of rats, transmitted to humans beings by fleas...the > old notion that infected rats and fleas travelled in army baggage is now > discounted by demographers. In addition, plague epidemics ! > were of relatively short duration in any one place, and were often > followed by a year or two of rapid demographic revovery. In fact the > long-term population losses associated with the war were generally due to > less spectacular but more persistent diseases spread by human > contact --typhus, influenza, dysentery and other illnesses which recurred, > year after year, in communities whose inhabitants were already weakened by > war-induced malnutrition and stress." > So, as with most things, the facts are not as straight-forward as we > would like for them to be. Consider yourself blessed if you can push your > family tree back beyond the Thirty Years' War. So far, I cannot. Many > parish records were lost when churches were burned (by both sides) and > this presents a major challenge for genealogical research. Beyond the > language differences, the general chaos which occured during the war and > in the period immediately afterwards is another reason for the confusion > over misspellings of names in the Tax List of 1654. Living in the > Habsburg Lands were people from many places: Scots, Italians, Irish, > English, Austrians, Czechs, Germans, German-Bohemians, Hungarians, etc., > etc. The census takers were not always equipped to understand the names > being spoken by these various nationalities. This was the Emperor's > attempt to find out who his subjects were, mainly - but not only - for tax > purposes. A generation had passed and things were no ! > longer as they had been in 1618. > > Hope I haven't put everyone to sleep. > > Bob Ullman > ullman@easystreet.com > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? > Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >
As Aida points out, some of them may have been there quite a long time in the same house -- but the church records do not begin until usually the 1700s, perhaps a very few in late 1600s. However, in some areas, there are land records that exist. They would have been kept by the local landowners (the lords or monasteries) -- they needed to keep track of who was paying the rent, robot, other taxes, etc. They do show the passing of a house from father to son, and also some of the other payments to the siblings from the child who got the house and farm, sometimes provisions to the widow, and even some remarriages; some of them act as court records. So it is possible to track back some of the lines farther. This will not help you if one of the families is "landless," and noninheriting children are not always mentioned. Still it may show that Johann, who got the house, paid his brother Franz in another village so much. These records act as kind of a history of the house, so when they move, perhaps to a better house or new house, the line goes there, so you really have to work backwards. You once again have to know some of the history of your area. Who was the landowner for that village? Did it change hands? I know that in my area in South Bohemia, those records are kept in the castle at Krummau. It is possible to have your Czech researcher go to the place where they are kept; it's not cheap research. Linda ----- Original Message ----- From: JEAN<mailto:JEAN74@TAMPABAY.RR.COM> To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com<mailto:GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 12:19 AM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where did they come from Hi List, I am searching for these families HORL, HOERL, HERL, ZICKLER, NOBERT, LOW,LOEW, HOLLER, HOELLER, RADL. I have some of them in Bohemia by 1740 but re did they come from, they just appear in the 1700s can anyone out there tell me did they come from Austria, Germany I am beginning to think that they dropped out of space. Thanks for any help Jean in Fl ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the list? To browse the archives, go to: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/<http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/>
Hello, all! I am renewing a search for my genealogy block in the CR. My G-G-Grandmother, Johanna Pinker, came over in March of 1892 (she was 29), with her 6 year old son, Gordian (the passenger manifest has him listed as Kordian). The manifest lists their origination as Klattau. She would never speak of where she came from, nor who sired Gordian. Johanna's brother, Anton (Tony) came over in June of 1883, with an place of origin listed as PreuBen. The name below him on the manifest shows Catherine Benes, whom he married. Catherine's brother, Josef, married Johanna after she came over in 1892. Josef adopted Gordian, who then became Gordian Benes. I'm trying to trace Johanna and/or Anton back to the CR, but have had no success. Family stories have been passed down that Johanna was "deathly afraid" of anyone in uniform. That may indicate to me that she was raped, or something else traumatic happened to her. As she would not speak of her homeland, I have no idea what trials she faced. Any help or direction would be much appreciated! Thanks, Becky This message contains information from Equifax Inc. which may be confidential and privileged. If you are not an intended recipient, please refrain from any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this information and note that such actions are prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify by e-mail postmaster@equifax.com.
It appears that I have been missing the boat on how to respond to postings from others. So I will try this approach. Hope I have not incovenienced anyone with my misdirected responses in the past. And I would be glad to hear whether I am sending this message to the proper location or not. I fully agree with Karen Hobbs' suggestion that in pursuing one's 17th century ancestors it is of utmost importance to become familiar with some of the historical background. The Thirty Years' War has been described by some historians as "the first world war," and it brought with it all the dislocations and stresses of any other world war. Understanding that might lead a family historian to look about for possiblities which s/he might not otherwise have considered. For example, some of our ancestors undoubtedly became camp followers during the war. That became a way of life and when the war ended many may have felt as did one individual in Olmutz, Moravia that "I was born in war, I have no home, no country and no friends, war is all my wealth and now whither shall I go? For some of our ancestors this meant wandering the roads as some of the freed American slaves did following the end of the Civil War. Eventually they had to settle somewhere. We may never know wher! e they were born. Or who their parents were. Or if it really matters - many young girls were de-flowered by soldiers and outlaws during this war. To assist those who may not know a great deal about this recently-rediscovered war, I have spent a little time with my books and can respond to some of Karen's comments concerning population loss during the Thirty Years' War. Specifially, she stated that "The new settlers were there because the 30 years war and the expulsions of protestants who were unwilling to convert at the wars end left Bohemia / Moravia with a population of less than 1, 000,000. Count von Lutzow (Czech historian) says in his book "Bohemia, an Historical Sketch" that the population before the war was 3,000,.000 and after it ended only 800.000." Now, it is true that the Count was, for very many years, the often-quoted authority on the subject of population loss during the Thirty Years' War. However, modern scholars have come to question his numbers. As early as 1961, C.V. Wedgwood stated in her classic, and extremely readable, study The Thirty Years' War that "The incredible decrease in population claimed for so many districts was to some extent the outcome of temporary emigration, and a careful consideration of conditions in Germany both before and after the war reveals the fact that society was dislocated rather than destroyed. But the marks of that dislocation remained long after the limbs had been re-integrated....The old legend that the population dropped from sixteen to four million people (these figures represent all of Germany (with the exceptions which follow in her quotation), i.e. all of the German principalities of the time as well as the Habsburg Crown Lands), rests on imagination: both figures are incorrect. The German Empire, including Alsace but excluding the Netherlands and Bohemia, probably numbered about twenty-one millions in 1618, and rather less than thirteen and a half millions in 1648. Ce! rtain authorities believe that the loss was less, but the figures, which have been confused over the generations by propaganda of different kinds, are extremely difficult to establish with any certainty." In his book, serf, seigneur, and sovereign, William E. Wright notes, as Karen also has said, that "During the war many peasants had taken flight before marauding armies, leaving their land and forsaking their rights to it....To the already generous grants from Ferdinand II, his creatures added even more by seizure of untended, previously serf-held acreage....Fugitive serfs and discharged soldiers, torn from their social moorings and lacking employment, roamed the land....Because of the general feeling of insecurity in the kingdom and the conduct of some of the fugitives, the Bohemian serf was considered a lawless, or potentially lawless, churl who should be closely bound to the land and strictly controlled by the lord of the area.... In other words, many people were displaced (rather than killed) during the war, and while some certainly returned to their villages after the war, others took to roaming the countryside, often as outlaws (my own ancestor is shown in The Tax! Rolls of 1654 as a schutz [shooter, guard, protector] which means his job was to protect against such individuals) leading the authorities to pass laws confining the serf's movement and tying him tightly to the land - whether it was the land he had been on at the start of the war or not. In his more recent (1984) study of the war (The Thirty Years' War) Geoffrey Parker cites the example of Linden, a village near Rothenburg, which "in 1618...had a total of nine taxable peasant households, plus four landless peasants....By 1641...the village was uninhabited--and it remained so for the rest of the war. But Linden did not become a permanent ghost village. In the decades following the war, settlers returned, and by 1690 the village had eleven peasant holdings--bringing it, in short, back to its pre-war size." Parker does not relate, or probably know, where the new settlers came from. Were they new inhabitants or former villagers returning to their homes? Or a combination? He does note, however, that "Historians can pinpoint hundreds of depopulated villages and reduced cities -- along with hundreds of towns and villages which survived the war almost intact." He goes on to explain that "There is no doubt, however, that central Europe did experience a gen! eration of substantial demographic decline. The exact causes of the population loss cannot always be determined, but one thing is certain: deaths due to military action represented only a minor element in the total picture (study their weapons: are you kidding me? How could they hit anything?!). War-related food shortages and outbreaks of epidemic disease were much greater killers. The most spectacular episodes of mortality were due to the bubonic plague, which broke out in many parts of central Europe during the war....Many epidemic diseases were spread by the movement of infected soldiers or civilians (a well-known cry concerning the army of one general in the war was "God help those where Mansfield comes!"), but the plague was not among them. For bubonic plague is actually a disease of rats, transmitted to humans beings by fleas...the old notion that infected rats and fleas travelled in army baggage is now discounted by demographers. In addition, plague epidemics ! were of relatively short duration in any one place, and were often followed by a year or two of rapid demographic revovery. In fact the long-term population losses associated with the war were generally due to less spectacular but more persistent diseases spread by human contact --typhus, influenza, dysentery and other illnesses which recurred, year after year, in communities whose inhabitants were already weakened by war-induced malnutrition and stress." So, as with most things, the facts are not as straight-forward as we would like for them to be. Consider yourself blessed if you can push your family tree back beyond the Thirty Years' War. So far, I cannot. Many parish records were lost when churches were burned (by both sides) and this presents a major challenge for genealogical research. Beyond the language differences, the general chaos which occured during the war and in the period immediately afterwards is another reason for the confusion over misspellings of names in the Tax List of 1654. Living in the Habsburg Lands were people from many places: Scots, Italians, Irish, English, Austrians, Czechs, Germans, German-Bohemians, Hungarians, etc., etc. The census takers were not always equipped to understand the names being spoken by these various nationalities. This was the Emperor's attempt to find out who his subjects were, mainly - but not only - for tax purposes. A generation had passed and things were no ! longer as they had been in 1618. Hope I haven't put everyone to sleep. Bob Ullman ullman@easystreet.com
I'm also searching for family in this era - and I have a town in Bohemia that I've been searching for but find little on it - and was wondering if the name had changed - I'm searching for surname of SCHALLOM/SCHALOM/SCHOLLUM and the town I have is Celakovy - which according to google is located in CZ and it has a big map but that is the only thing I can find on this town. I also have the following info from a fellow relative in NZ who was gracious enough to give me this info - and I'd like to find out more if possible - any info or direction would be so appreciated: ***** JOHN SCHALLOM Date of wedding: 26th Apr 1842. Place of wedding: Stankov - town. Bridegroom: SCHALOM Johann, son of CHRISTOPH SCHALOM half-farmer from Merklin # 35 and of Maria. 26 years old, [ie born around 1816] single, catholic religion. Bride: MARIA WEISS, legitimate daughter of GEORG WEISS burger in Stankov-town # 25 and of BARBARA daughter of THOMAS ENTELWEBER estate-owner in Deutschreichenau # 110, manor Hradec and of Theresia nee Huter from Pucherdorf. ?? years old, single, catholic ************** Can somone tell me what a HALF farmer is and what a BURGER is? I have not been able to get any really good info on my surnames in these areas so if anyone has an idea of where I can search, I would appreciate it. ~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ Warrenton, MO http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com Looking for surnames of MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), DILLON, CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, SCHALLOM, STEPPIG, MEES/MAES, REIS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, KRAFT, BANGERT, DIESEL, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, RAPP, MENTEL, SHELLHORN, STALEY, WEBER, THOELE, MITCHELL, PROBST, GOLD ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aida Kraus" <akibb1@verizon.net> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 11:57 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where did they come from To Jean in Florida: They may have lived there all their lives, like all natives do..... but not all villages had churches and they only appear when the churches were built and the recording started. If they lived close to a monastery the records go as far back as when the cloister was built. Remember that everyone was a heathen before Christianity ...or they believed in their Germanic mythological gods... until they were converted. The Catholic faith was dominant between 600 and 1380 in middle Europe and it came to the area of Fulda and Wuerzburg from Ireland with St. Kilian. In 1380 the Wycliffe Thesis, a Protestant theorem, was taught by Jan Hus at the German University at Prague. Later Martin Luther took up the Protestant teaching. This lead to the 30 years war which ended 1648 but during which most of the churches and cloisters were burned. In Bohemia a census was taken in 1651 called Berni Rula because in that religious war more than 50% of the population succumbed and they needed to know what population was left over. This census is called Berni Rula and I gave "direction" to it a few days back, look in the archives. I myself have Zicklers in my family from the area of Marienbad-Tepl. Stift (Abby) Tepl was one of the earliest Catholic settlements in the Egerland by the Prämonstratenser order. It is wise to familiarize yourself with the history of the area you are researching. You can also read about it on the internet if you key in "Stift Tepl, Bohemia" or this website: http://www.premontre.org/subpages/propriadocumenta/periodica/sec-analecta.htm All your names appear to me to be either Egerlander or Bavarian-Bohemian German names and they were lived this area since time began. People did not move very far from their hometowns and most of the families lived in the same houses for 350 years. Each generation improved the premises and the houses were built of stone to last centuries. Most of the farms were quite substantial. Aida ---------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "JEAN" <JEAN74@TAMPABAY.RR.COM> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 10:19 PM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where did they come from > Hi List, I am searching for these families HORL, HOERL, HERL, ZICKLER, > NOBERT, LOW,LOEW, HOLLER, HOELLER, RADL. > I have some of them in Bohemia by 1740 but re did they come from, they > just appear in the 1700s > can anyone out there tell me did they come from Austria, Germany I am > beginning to think that they dropped out of space. > Thanks for any help > Jean in Fl > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To browse the archives, go to: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/
A half-farmer means that he had a profession besides his farm. Usually they were butchers, bakers, innkeepers, etc. and also had a small farm holding. A Burgher is a freeman living in a town and that he lived in a house with a low number means that he was a prominent person.. Probably one of the first ones to settle in this town and was probably on the city council or an elder. If the records describe him as "Burgher" or "Richter" then he was a city or village official - check the original documents carefully! Burgher means that he had the right to live in a town as a freeman and not as a serf for the nobility or abbey. Merklin is Merkelsgrün just a bit to the North of Karlsbad (Karlovy Vary on a Czech map) on the foot of the picturesque Ore Mountains. There are 9 Stankov towns in Bohemia, you will have to let me know which one it is, look in the documents perhaps it gives the "Kreis" (district) and then you can find it on this map I presume that it is the one closest to Deutschreichenau "Rychnuvek" or the Castle Hradec. Check this link: http://www.mapy.cz/?st=search&fr=Stankov&pw=541&ph=428&ocx=133890048&ocy=134938624&ozm=5&omp=base and since the person of this town married a rather wealthy farmer's daughter from Deutschreichenau belonging to the Manor of Hradec, the Stankov above might be in that surrounding area and you will have to do a little hunting. To give you a clue, Deutschreichenau can be found as "Rychnuvek" on this above www.mapy.cz. just North of the Austrian-Bohemian border. And this Hradec had the German name Wittinghausen at all times with the old castle of Wittigstein (1220-1277) established by the German Wittigonen. Here is a link in English that you can read of describing this historic place: http://www.ckrumlov.cz/uk/region/histor/t_vithra.htm Pucherdorf must also be in that area and you have to hunt for it, I cannot find the Czech equivalent at this time, perhaps someone out there could help in this! Or you can use the rules for finding places with their URL links I posted just a few days back. See GBHS archives and you will be able to help yourself. Aida ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pam" <pam@ewebexpress.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 7:11 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where did they come from > I'm also searching for family in this era - and I have a town in Bohemia > that I've been searching for but find little on it - and was wondering if > the name had changed - > > I'm searching for surname of SCHALLOM/SCHALOM/SCHOLLUM and the town I have > is Celakovy - which according to google is located in CZ and it has a big > map but that is the only thing I can find on this town. I also have the > following info from a fellow relative in NZ who was gracious enough to > give > me this info - and I'd like to find out more if possible - any info or > direction would be so appreciated: > > ***** > JOHN SCHALLOM > > Date of wedding: 26th Apr 1842. > Place of wedding: Stankov - town. > Bridegroom: SCHALOM Johann, son of CHRISTOPH SCHALOM half-farmer > from Merklin # 35 and of Maria. > 26 years old, [ie born around 1816] single, catholic religion. > Bride: MARIA WEISS, legitimate daughter of GEORG WEISS burger in > Stankov-town # 25 and of BARBARA daughter of THOMAS ENTELWEBER > estate-owner in Deutschreichenau # 110, manor Hradec and of > Theresia nee Huter from Pucherdorf. ?? years old, single, catholic > > ************** > Can somone tell me what a HALF farmer is and what a BURGER is? I have not > been able to get any really good info on my surnames in these areas so if > anyone has an idea of where I can search, I would appreciate it. > > ~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ > Warrenton, MO > http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com > http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com > Looking for surnames of MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), DILLON, > CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, > SCHALLOM, STEPPIG, MEES/MAES, REIS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, KRAFT, BANGERT, > DIESEL, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, RAPP, MENTEL, SHELLHORN, STALEY, WEBER, > THOELE, MITCHELL, PROBST, GOLD > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aida Kraus" <akibb1@verizon.net> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 11:57 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where > did > they come from > > > To Jean in Florida: > They may have lived there all their lives, like all natives do..... but > not > all villages had churches and they only appear when the churches were > built > and the recording started. If they lived close to a monastery the records > go as far back as when the cloister was built. Remember that everyone was > a > heathen before Christianity ...or they believed in their Germanic > mythological gods... until they were converted. The Catholic faith was > dominant between 600 and 1380 in middle Europe and it came to the area of > Fulda and Wuerzburg from Ireland with St. Kilian. In 1380 the Wycliffe > Thesis, a Protestant theorem, was taught by Jan Hus at the German > University > at Prague. Later Martin Luther took up the Protestant teaching. This > lead > to the 30 years war which ended 1648 but during which most of the churches > and cloisters were burned. In Bohemia a census was taken in 1651 called > Berni Rula because in that religious war more than 50% of the population > succumbed and they needed to know what population was left over. This > census is called Berni Rula and I gave "direction" to it a few days back, > look in the archives. > I myself have Zicklers in my family from the area of Marienbad-Tepl. > Stift (Abby) Tepl was one of the earliest Catholic settlements in the > Egerland by the Prämonstratenser order. It is wise to familiarize yourself > with the history of the area you are researching. You can also read about > it > on the internet if you key in "Stift Tepl, Bohemia" or this website: > http://www.premontre.org/subpages/propriadocumenta/periodica/sec-analecta.htm > > All your names appear to me to be either Egerlander or Bavarian-Bohemian > German names and they were lived this area since time began. People did > not > move very far from their hometowns and most of the families lived in the > same houses for 350 years. Each generation improved the premises and the > houses were built of stone to last centuries. Most of the farms were > quite > substantial. > Aida > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "JEAN" <JEAN74@TAMPABAY.RR.COM> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 10:19 PM > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where did > they come from > > >> Hi List, I am searching for these families HORL, HOERL, HERL, ZICKLER, >> NOBERT, LOW,LOEW, HOLLER, HOELLER, RADL. >> I have some of them in Bohemia by 1740 but re did they come from, they >> just appear in the 1700s >> can anyone out there tell me did they come from Austria, Germany I am >> beginning to think that they dropped out of space. >> Thanks for any help >> Jean in Fl >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >> list? To browse the archives, go to: >> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >> > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? > Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >
I have been researching my parents surnames in Europe.....Could anyone help me out with these names? Thank you anyone for some help. Karen Kautz
Here are pictures of the Grossbach-Mill at Enkirch. The town Enkirch (not the mill) is recorded since 733AD, so this is a very old settlement since Charlemagne......and this link might also be of interest to you. http://www.grossbachmuehle.de/ Aida ---------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Kautz" <kkautz@clear.lakes.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 6:01 AM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Grossbach and Kautz families >I have been researching my parents surnames in Europe.....Could anyone help >me out with these names? Thank you anyone for some help. Karen Kautz > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To search the archives, go to: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN >
To Karen Kautz: There is a Grossbach-Mühle (a mill) in the Trier area (which is a very old area along the Rhine) and I suggest that you copy and paste this website address into the Google translator. It might be of interest to you. http://www.roscheiderhof.de/kulturdb/kultur/kultur7627.html Aida ------------------------------------------------------------ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Kautz" <kkautz@clear.lakes.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 6:01 AM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Grossbach and Kautz families >I have been researching my parents surnames in Europe.....Could anyone help >me out with these names? Thank you anyone for some help. Karen Kautz > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To search the archives, go to: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN >
Grossbach: is not listed, the meaning of this name (translated to English) means Large Creek and might come from some area. You may key in Grossbach, Germany, into your URL and see if you get any hits for such a place where they might have come from. Kautz: The literal translation of Kautz is owlet, a small owl. Used to describe the characteristic of a person there is a common German expression for an odd person which is "komischer Kautz" it is equivalent to the English meaning "crazy coot". The name is listed as Kautzsch in the Dresden, Saxony, area but no years or records are listed for this name. You should probably check out the Jewish name registers on this because they often converted Hebrew names to German equivalent in either in meaning or phonetics. Aida -------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Kautz" <kkautz@clear.lakes.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 6:01 AM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Grossbach and Kautz families >I have been researching my parents surnames in Europe.....Could anyone help >me out with these names? Thank you anyone for some help. Karen Kautz > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To search the archives, go to: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN >
Hi List, I am searching for these families HORL, HOERL, HERL, ZICKLER, NOBERT, LOW,LOEW, HOLLER, HOELLER, RADL. I have some of them in Bohemia by 1740 but re did they come from, they just appear in the 1700s can anyone out there tell me did they come from Austria, Germany I am beginning to think that they dropped out of space. Thanks for any help Jean in Fl
To Jean in Florida: They may have lived there all their lives, like all natives do..... but not all villages had churches and they only appear when the churches were built and the recording started. If they lived close to a monastery the records go as far back as when the cloister was built. Remember that everyone was a heathen before Christianity ...or they believed in their Germanic mythological gods... until they were converted. The Catholic faith was dominant between 600 and 1380 in middle Europe and it came to the area of Fulda and Wuerzburg from Ireland with St. Kilian. In 1380 the Wycliffe Thesis, a Protestant theorem, was taught by Jan Hus at the German University at Prague. Later Martin Luther took up the Protestant teaching. This lead to the 30 years war which ended 1648 but during which most of the churches and cloisters were burned. In Bohemia a census was taken in 1651 called Berni Rula because in that religious war more than 50% of the population succumbed and they needed to know what population was left over. This census is called Berni Rula and I gave "direction" to it a few days back, look in the archives. I myself have Zicklers in my family from the area of Marienbad-Tepl. Stift (Abby) Tepl was one of the earliest Catholic settlements in the Egerland by the Prämonstratenser order. It is wise to familiarize yourself with the history of the area you are researching. You can also read about it on the internet if you key in "Stift Tepl, Bohemia" or this website: http://www.premontre.org/subpages/propriadocumenta/periodica/sec-analecta.htm All your names appear to me to be either Egerlander or Bavarian-Bohemian German names and they were lived this area since time began. People did not move very far from their hometowns and most of the families lived in the same houses for 350 years. Each generation improved the premises and the houses were built of stone to last centuries. Most of the farms were quite substantial. Aida ---------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "JEAN" <JEAN74@TAMPABAY.RR.COM> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 10:19 PM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where did they come from > Hi List, I am searching for these families HORL, HOERL, HERL, ZICKLER, > NOBERT, LOW,LOEW, HOLLER, HOELLER, RADL. > I have some of them in Bohemia by 1740 but re did they come from, they > just appear in the 1700s > can anyone out there tell me did they come from Austria, Germany I am > beginning to think that they dropped out of space. > Thanks for any help > Jean in Fl > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To browse the archives, go to: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >
Aida, Thanks - from this reader of your very helpful information is hardly enough to say... While the question was posed by another, I 'I'm saving your reply content against the day that I finally have an "original" last name of our grandparents Maurice A, & Amelia DAVIS's family. We know they were from the regions you are so familiar with, but we have no direct leads as to exactly what his surname was, or where in Germany-Bohemia-Czechoslovakia-Poland-Russia-Austria-Hungary-Belarus-Latvia or Lithuania (or other country I may have overlooked altogether) such a name derivation as DAVIS might have been commonly assumed by immigrants coming to the United States in the 1880's. Your techniques for searching and knowledge of useful web-links is invaluable and your willingness to share is gratefully appreciated. Like I say, one word, "thanks" only barely covers our appreciation ... Jo Davis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aida Kraus" <akibb1@verizon.net> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 2:21 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Czech Census Searchers > The title of the tax rolls is called Berni Rula and can be requested from > your library. Here is the source. > Berni Rula Source (Census of Bohemian Population after 30 years war > 1651 - 1654 > > ISBN 80-7277-058-6 > > Author Cerveny (2003) > > Avialable on Interlibrary loan from Indiana University > > > Sometimes you will have to wait a few weeks, but it is well worth it. > Unfortunately, they have distorted all the original German records by > translating the German names of our ancestors into Czech, especially their > first names, because as you can see this record was compiled as recently > as 2003. We had Heinrich, Anton and Franz under many of our German > surnames. However, now they appear as Jindrich, Antonin and Frantisek > under a very poorly spelled last name. This requires a bit of studying to > prepare yourself for the "hunt". While my ancestors and I lived in the > old Czechoslovakia, the German settlements documents were recorded in > German and the Czech settlements documents were issued in Czech. For > English speaking people the German is far easier to read than the Czech > lettering, which is phonetic. > > If you go to a German website, like Yahoo, search for the German name, > like Schönbach and then the word Tschechien (which means Czech Republic) > and you will most likely get all the Schönbach Villages in Bohemia and > Moravia. I tried it for you and I am getting these three (see listing > below) from the German-Czech Village name Index which I am also giving > here. The German village name is given first and the one after the > colon: is the present Czech name. I don't know which one of the > Schönbachs is the village where your ancestors came from. To isolate this > information, you will have to go to the next step given below, see > "mapy.cz" > To find the new Czech name for German villages go to: > > http://www.tschechien-online.org/news/1452-ortsnamen-tschechien-liste-deutscher-bezeichnungen-tschechischer-orte-buchstabe-s/ > > a.. Schönbach (bei Deutsch Gabel): Zdislava > > a.. Schönbach im Erzgebirge: Meziborí > > a.. Schönbach (bei Wildstein): Luby > > After you have located the Czech village name, go to this website : > www.mapy.cz find the search button type in the Czech village name and > press "dalsi" (go) and a map will come up to show where the village is > located. You can focus on it with a larger view, once you have found the > general area. Since people did not travel much during the old times, you > will most likely find the villages of their mates nearby. So give it a > good look on a larger view! You can then locate the one where your > ancestors came from. If you can read a map, you can find your way through > this, even though it is in the Czech language. If you key in the > website's address into the google search button, you can ask for a > translation and follow the instructions. It is a bit of detective work, > but then this is the fun of genealogy. > There is also an old Austrian Hungarian map registry which you can > access by googling: > http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm > > On these old military maps (an enlarging button and navigator is in the > right lower corner of the reduced map) all German villages are bearing > their original German names and all Czech villages are listed with their > Czech names. Since these are very old maps dating 1910 and before, you > will find more German names than Czech. But if you can find the > Longt.-Lat. coordinates, you can pinpoint every small village (even > individual houses shown by a black dot) on these old Lazarus Military > maps. They are accessible through your computer and are free. > > A word of advice! You would not want others to do this research for > you, there is personal pride involved in such a search which is highly > rewarding. You will get stuck with actual documentation, and then it will > be time to ask for research help in the Czech archives. Because this is > very expensive, this "footwork" will make the search for the prof. > genealogist shorter and less expensive to you. It is important that you > educate yourself as to the history during different centuries and that you > build a glossary for yourself to help with translations. > > I realize that you need a little guidance as to how to go about it > logically. I have found this method as something that really "works" and > it is a good way to get started. It will bring you reliable results > without chasing all over foreign websites that do not pan out. If you key > in the Czech village name into a Czech website, you most likely will get > the coordinates of the village and some photographs of the area. Just > click on the words "Photo or Gallery." > I am posting this to the List for general use. Good luck! > Aida > > PS: copy and paste these three links into a separate folder under "my > documents" for future reference, as you will use it quite often to get > "closer" to your ancestry. > > >> >>>What is the title of the published Index to theTax Rolls of 1654 for >> Bohemia? Sorry, if I've overlooked a cited E-mail on that question. >> Also, >> were any of the Urbarium (sp?) for Bohemia published? Specifically I'm >> looking for any property records in the Schönbach, Seifersdorf, >> Hohenelbe, >> Beneschau and Deutsch-Gabel area. I've given the German names as I'm >> still >> attempting to find the Czech diacritical marks in my fonts. >> >>>Looking for info re: Scholz, Wörfel, Heidrich, Smahal, Grützner, Erben, >> Kieswetter >>> >>>Thanks for any info, Norbert. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? >> Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >> > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To search the archives, go to: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.5/334 - Release Date: 5/8/2006 >
Hello Walter, I saw your posting on the German-Bohemian site and saw it was the same area I am researching too. I have some PAULY people but from DEPOLDOWITZ. My great grandfather's mother was ANNA PAULY daughter of JOHANN PAULY, a tenant and bricklayer and BARBARA PAULY (name of birth) (I believe this means she was a PAULY who married a PAULY) of DNOSCHOWITZ. I don't have any other information on these people. A person traveling in the Czech Republic found this information for me. That was before the Czech government changed the policy for researchers using their archives. My great grandfather was KARL TAUSCHER of DESCHENITZ born 12-July-1855 Could we possibly have a connection here? Cris ---- Original Message ---- From: wf.rosmarin@gmx.at To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] help with translation Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 14:55:11 +0200 (MEST) >As requested down here a tranlation including the actual czech names >of the >places. Since I am interested in this area too, I would be thankful >for any >help or connetion related to the names Waldmann, Wilhelm, Pauly, >Aschenbrenner, Mundl, and the places Olchowitz, Freihöls, Grün. > > --- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --- >> Von: "randy mathes" <RANDALMATHES@peoplepc.com> >> An: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com >> Betreff: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] help with translation >> Datum: Sat, 6 May 2006 16:21:08 -0500 >> >> translation for this page please: > >> Kirchenbuchverzeichnis des Pfarrbezirks Neuern, >- Parrish register of the parrish district Neuern (Nyrsko) > >> mit Pfarrorten: Neuern, Bistritz, Dörstein, Freihöls, Glashütten, >- with the parish locations (villages): Neuern (Nyrsko), Bistriz >(Bystřice nad Úhlavou), Dörstein (Suchý Kámen), Freihöls (Stará >Lhota), >Glashütten (Skelná Hut?), > >> Hinterhäuser, Holletitz, Hoslau, Kohlheim, Millik, Starlitz; >- Hinterhäuser (Zadní Chalupy), Holletitz (Hodousice), Hoslau >(Hvodany / >Blata?), Kohlheim (Uhlite), Millik (Milence), Starlitz (Starý Laz); > >> dazu ab 1654-1848: Ober Neuern, Unter Neuern, >- in addition from 1654-1848: Ober Neuern (Horní Nýrsko), Unter >Neuern >([Dolní] Nýrsko), > >> Hammern (nur Vorderhammern), St. Katharina, >- Hammern (Hamry) (Vorderhamern [Přední Hamry] only), St. >Katharina >(Svatá Kateřina), > >> Deschenitz, Depoldowitz, Olchowitz, Todlau, Dorrstadt, >- Deschenitz (Deenice), Depoldowitz (Depoldovice), Olchowitz >(Oldřichovice), Todlau (Datelov), Dorrstadt >(Městitě), > >> Grün, Schießnetitz, Mottowitz, Eisenstraß. >- Grün (Zelená Lhota), Schießnetitz (iznětice), Mottowotiz, >Eisenstraß >(Hojsova Strá). >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined >the >> list? To browse the archives, go to: >> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >> > >-- >Searching Rosmarin, Romarin (Slovenia), Romarin (Wallonia), >Waldmann (Bohemia), Kirchsteiger (Styria), >Lackner (Radenthein/Carinthia) >Please join the "Rosmarin"- name-list if appropriate: >http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/surname/r/rosmarin.html > >GMX Produkte empfehlen und ganz einfach Geld verdienen! >Satte Provisionen für GMX Partner: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/partner > > >==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >list? To browse the archives, go to: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GER >MAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >
> Aida Kraus, much thanks for the information you've provided. It has been very instructive. I've also been interested in finding out how long by ancestors have been in Sch�nbach (Zdislava) as an example. When and from where did these Germans/Austrians come from?Some of my research, or should I say my researcher in the Czech Republic, has me pushing 1700. Furthermore the Urbarium of the area has me curious, but I suspect I will have to go to Leitmeritz to view them. Finally, the name is Schmahal, or Schmakal, from Benesov (Beneschau). It is the only Czech influence in my family tree. Thanks again Norbert Sopolsky Citrus Heights, CA > > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the list? To browse the archives, go to: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >
"Sometimes you will have to wait a few weeks, but it is well worth it. Unfortunately, they have distorted all the original German records by translating the German names of our ancestors into Czech, especially their first names, because as you can see this record was compiled as recently as 2003." Aida, thank you for sharing your step-by-step instructions, map links and a wealth of information! Carole Soenke Carlson Sacrament, CA USAo
Is it possible to learn more about the original meanings of and the places of origin of some of the German names that I am researching? The names I would be most interested in learning about are - Olbrich, Pretsch, Geiser, Schatte (name that was adopted by my Wendish ancestors ???), Troschke and Moegelin. Also, I often find Moegelin and Moeckel together in the many databases. Is there a relationship between these two seemingly unrelated names? Is there any relationship between Moegelin and a series of similar sounding names, such as Moeglich, Moegle etc.? Any assistance regarding these names will be greatly appreciated. Carroll Warschak
Olbrich, Pretsch, Geiser, Schatte, Troschke, Moegelin, Moeckel Olbrich: there is a German Duchy of this name in in the Silesian-Saxon Glatz. It stems from the name Albrecht. An Olbrich Strachen is listed in 1398 Breslau, Silesia, now Poland. And not far from there at Goerlitz there is a recording of an Albrecht Gryfstete in 1379. The name is also written as Ulbrich(t). Pretsch : no listing Geiser: from Bavaria, Wuerttemberg and Switzerland, also Gaiser. Meaning is a person who works with or raises Geissen (goats) a goat hearder. Schatte: no listing. The German word "Schatten" means shade. Troschke: is listed in Berlin in 1512. Written like Droschke it means a horse drawn carriage. Moegelin: no listing Moeckel: may be a misspelling and might bebe Moecker. A Mocke is a swamp and therefore it would stand to reason that a Moecker lives in swampland. The name Moecker is listed at Leipzig but there is no year given. Also: A Mocke is a plant in the swamp. Unfortunately, there is not much in the German Name Lexicon on this and it might just be related to some other slavic name. But here is an intersting spelling: Moog and Moogk in Thuringia and Hessia. It is listed in 1406 at Jena and means "one related by blood" in the old Saxon language. Aida ----- Original Message ----- From: <CWarschak@aol.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 12:57 PM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] names > Is it possible to learn more about the original meanings of and the > places of origin of some of the German names that I am researching? > The names I would be most interested in learning about are - Olbrich, > Pretsch, Geiser, Schatte (name that was adopted by my Wendish > ancestors ???), Troschke and Moegelin. > Also, I often find Moegelin and Moeckel together in the many databases. > Is there a relationship between these two seemingly unrelated names? > Is there any relationship between Moegelin and a series of similar > sounding names, such as Moeglich, Moegle etc.? > Any assistance regarding these names will be greatly appreciated. > > Carroll Warschak > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? > Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >
ooops, sorry about Smahal, as this could be a misspelling for the German name Schmal. Schmal means "narrow"... You may want to take your lead document of this name to a genealogist to verify the correct spelling. Aida
Scholz, Wörfel, Heidrich, Grützner, Erben, Kieswetter are all German names. Their meanings are Scholz: short for Schultheis since 1300 meaning Village Elder, mayor, or Jury foreman. Wörfel: a name frequent in Franken in the Kulmbach area from where these people probably wandered into Bohemia. It means "Würfel" (dice) and is related to gambling. Heidrich: Heidenrich, Heinrich, a common German first name used in the crusades because Heide is an unbeliever and the ending rich denoted a "power above", in other words: One who is mightier than the heathens. Note that this word written as Haide - with an A means a meadow. Grützner: Is definitely a Silesian surname, also written in old records of 1348 as Grüczener. Grütze means groats, a grain. A Grützner could mean a miller, or one who sells it. Erben: this word literally means: Inheritors (plural). The name appears for the first name as a surname on the upper Rhine in the Strassburg, Alsace-Lorraine area in 1100. Later, they applied this surname to anyone who inherited substantial assets from their families. Kieswetter: this name originated in Silesia and Saxony. It means to "foretell the weather" and is listed in the Gudrunlied paragraph 903: as "Fruote bi dem lufte kiesen do began" Look up Gudrunlied in your encyclopaedia!!! Here you can see where English and German were both still Germanic languages, until English developed under the influence of Roman occupation.We find this name later at Görlitz, Silesia 1310, and 1370 at Dresden, there is a recording of Henslein Herdegen der Kysewetter in 1422 at Bamberg, and it is found as Kisswetter or Küsswetter at Vienna. Smahal is a Czech name. Aida