Frierdich might be a misspelling of Friedrich, there is nothing listed under Frierdich! Michalek is a Czech name. Steppig must be some phonetic scramble, it is not listed in the Lexicon. Stoppich, ditto as above Schramm: now here is a hit ...this means "a scar" and is recorded for one Breitbeck mit der Schramme 1459 at Stolberg, and a schramecht Hensel 1396 at Budweis, and as Peter Schrammer 1381. In the Glatz (Silesia) it is recorded as Schremmel in 1353. Aida ------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pam" <pam@ewebexpress.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 7:34 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing search for family... > so would you have any idea what the following names meant? > > Frierdich > > Michalek > > Steppig/Stoppich > > Schramm > > thanks! > Pam > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aida Kraus" <akibb1@verizon.net> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 9:11 AM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing search for family... > > > Pinker is fairly common in Bohemia and Austria. It has several origins. > There is Pinkernagel (ping-pang from a hammer) who was a smith making > nails, > this name shows up in 1491 in Erfurt, Thuringia. That is to the North of > Bohemia. And then there is Pinkus which is a writer or clerk in Latin and > that "Pink" syllable here is not associated with the sound of a hammer, > but > means the Latin word pinkus which is a writer, a clerk. This name is > found > in Olmütz, Bohemia, where in 1358 Petrus Pinkusser is the scribe of a > document. --- And be inventive, google "Bremen Shiplists", "Surname > search" > etc. etc. > Aida > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <Becky.Champion@equifax.com> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 6:35 AM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing search for family... > > >> >> >> >> >> Yes - I agree with Prussia for Anton's notation. Since he came in 1883 >> and >> Johanna came so much later, I didn't know if perhaps her notation of >> Klattau was more recent. Also, I have one great-uncle still living, and >> he >> thinks he remembers them changing the Benes surname from Benesch or >> Benesh >> - so the German might not be too far-fetched. Do you know if the surname >> Pinker was very common in that region? They would be the ones I would >> like >> to track down the most. The only reason I'm interested in Benes/Benesch >> is >> that perhaps they came from the same area. But Benes/Benesch is not blood >> related to me. >> >> You mention Bremen shiplists. How would I find those? (that sounds like a >> fairly exciting lead...) >> >> I'd also like to add my thanks to you and Karen - between the two of you, >> I >> learn so much, and am totally fascinated! >> >> Becky >> >> >> >> >> "Aida Kraus" >> <akibb1@verizon.n >> et> To >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com >> 05/10/2006 06:28 cc >> PM >> Subject >> Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing >> Please respond to search for family... >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L >> @rootsweb.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Becky: >> What you have been typing as PreuBen is Preußen the ß is a German double >> ss >> >> or "sharp S", so.... they were from Prussia! >> Since Silesia was also a part of Austria Hungary but was lost to Prussia >> in >> the Austrian Prussian war, and since this area is bordering on what is >> now >> the Czech Republic, it could well be that they are from that part. (Of >> course the Czech Republic or Czechoslovakia did not exist as yet in March >> of >> 1892, so there would be no reference to it on that manifest, because that >> country did not yet exist.) So, when they left they were either from >> Prussia, Austria, Galicia or Poland. But it could very well be that they >> came from an area which later became part of the newly formed >> Czechoslovakia in 1919, and that was long after they had left there. >> The surname Benes, written as such or with an s at the end, would >> indicate that they were of Czech ethnicity, while when their name is >> spelled >> with sch at the end, like Benesch, they were most likely a German >> family. >> Since this name is as common in the Czech Republic (as Smith is here in >> America) you will have a hard time to find the correct location. Your >> clue >> is the recording "Preussen". So it is in the general area I listed >> before. >> Actually, you can only go by whatever lead documents or letters you can >> find, or by remembering a village name, or perhaps you could go back to >> the >> >> passenger list (not upon their arrival) but from where they sailed, >> because >> >> sometimes they listed the places of origin in the Bremen shipslists. >> The >> Bremen shiplists should have an alphabetical index. like the Ellis >> Island >> register. Look for Benes and Benesch and see if someone has Preussen >> (Prussia) and the same first names listged on it, and then, perhaps, you >> may >> be able to narrow it down. I certainly hope so. Good luck! >> Aida >> ------------------------------ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <Becky.Champion@equifax.com> >> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 7:31 AM >> Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing search for family... >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello, all! I am renewing a search for my genealogy block in the CR. My >>> G-G-Grandmother, Johanna Pinker, came over in March of 1892 (she was >>> 29), >>> with her 6 year old son, Gordian (the passenger manifest has him listed >> as >>> Kordian). The manifest lists their origination as Klattau. She would >> never >>> speak of where she came from, nor who sired Gordian. Johanna's brother, >>> Anton (Tony) came over in June of 1883, with an place of origin listed >>> as >>> PreuBen. The name below him on the manifest shows Catherine Benes, whom >> he >>> married. Catherine's brother, Josef, married Johanna after she came over >>> in >>> 1892. Josef adopted Gordian, who then became Gordian Benes. >>> >>> I'm trying to trace Johanna and/or Anton back to the CR, but have had no >>> success. Family stories have been passed down that Johanna was "deathly >>> afraid" of anyone in uniform. That may indicate to me that she was >>> raped, >>> or something else traumatic happened to her. As she would not speak of >> her >>> homeland, I have no idea what trials she faced. >>> >>> Any help or direction would be much appreciated! >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Becky >>> >>> >>> >>> This message contains information from Equifax Inc. which may be >>> confidential and privileged. If you are not an intended recipient, >> please >>> refrain from any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this >>> information and note that such actions are prohibited. If you have >>> received this transmission in error, please notify by e-mail >>> postmaster@equifax.com. >>> >>> >>> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >>> list? To search the archives, go to: >>> >> http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN >>> >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This message contains information from Equifax Inc. which may be >> confidential and privileged. If you are not an intended recipient, >> please >> refrain from any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this >> information and note that such actions are prohibited. If you have >> received this transmission in error, please notify by e-mail >> postmaster@equifax.com. >> >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >> list? To browse the archives, go to: >> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >> > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >

Merklin, Merkelsgrün might have been administrated by Lichtenstadt which had a large Jewish community. Aida ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pam" <pam@ewebexpress.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 6:44 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing search for family... > Oh my ... we have >2< Pams here looking for relatives in > Bohemia/Germany/Austria/CZ :-).... I'll try to make sure my emails always > have my sig line in them to avoid confusion - > > my SCHALLOM's are supposedly from Bohemia .... thought maybe it was a > Jewish > name, but cannot connect that - I know that shalom means peace and this > name > is so close to that - but haven't been able to connect any ancestors yet > in > that area of his birth (Merklin) with that name. But having fun looking! > > Pam in MO > > ~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ > Warrenton, MO > http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com > http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com > Looking for surnames of MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), DILLON, > CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, > SCHALLOM, STEPPIG, MEES/MAES, REIS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, KRAFT, BANGERT, > DIESEL, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, RAPP, MENTEL, SCHELLHORN, STALEY, WEBER, > THOELE, MITCHELL, PROBST, GOLD > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "PJ V" <netkitty@hotmail.com> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 7:50 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing search for family... > > > On the ship's log it says "Bohemia" only. I am wondering if I can find > where they were buried in Michigan if they would have an exact town name > mentioned in the records. Either that or would the marriage record for > their daughters in Michigan mention what town they came from? > > Thanks, Pam > > >>From: "Aida Kraus" <akibb1@verizon.net> >>Reply-To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com >>To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com >>Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing search for family... >>Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 17:23:52 -0700 >> >>For Pam: >>Wohlmann is a German name and could be from anywhere in Germany. My name >>Lexicon refers to Wohlmann as: >>Wohltmann, a name from Northern Germany, a derivation of Waldmann = man of >>the Forest. And there is a Woldmann and Woltmann originating in the area >>of Hamburg. There is no mention of any other place, but you may go to >>the >>website and key in Woltmann, and check for a site where the frequency of >>last names are given in relation to a map of the country. I don't have >>this at my fingertips right now, because I am just programming my new >>computer and all the old files are not yet transferred. But just hit the >>URLS on Google and Yahoo websites, even German Yahoo websites with >>questions like: "surnames and areas" etc. eventually you should get to >>that map. Type in the last name and then it should show spots where these >>names occur to this day, you can also go to the Hamburg telephone book >>white pages and look at Woltmann. Go to the ships manifest at Bremen >>and >>search 1878 departures of that name, perhaps they wrote down the area >>where >>they came from. >>Aida >> > >> >> >>>Aida: >>> >>>I wonder if you could tell me what area my Bohemian surname of Wohlman >>>would likely be from? They immigrated in 1878 from the port of >>>Bremen. >>>Their origin was said to be Bohemia in the beginning but later they >>>stated >>>either Germany or Austria around 1900. >>> >>>Thanks. >>> >>>Pam >>> > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To search the archives, go to: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN >

Try to key in "Johann of Luxembourg, King of Bohemia." Aida ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel R. Killoran,Ph.D." <drkilloran@speakeasy.net> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 7:17 AM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] royal genealogical table website > > On May 11, 2006, at 9:51 AM, Aida Kraus wrote: > >> You can check the royal genealogical table at: http:// >> www.worldroots.com/cgi-bin/gasteldb?@I109418@. > > Aida, I tried this website and it came up blank! > > Dan Killoran > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >

Pinker is fairly common in Bohemia and Austria. It has several origins. There is Pinkernagel (ping-pang from a hammer) who was a smith making nails, this name shows up in 1491 in Erfurt, Thuringia. That is to the North of Bohemia. And then there is Pinkus which is a writer or clerk in Latin and that "Pink" syllable here is not associated with the sound of a hammer, but means the Latin word pinkus which is a writer, a clerk. This name is found in Olmütz, Bohemia, where in 1358 Petrus Pinkusser is the scribe of a document. --- And be inventive, google "Bremen Shiplists", "Surname search" etc. etc. Aida --------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: <Becky.Champion@equifax.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 6:35 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing search for family... > > > > > Yes - I agree with Prussia for Anton's notation. Since he came in 1883 and > Johanna came so much later, I didn't know if perhaps her notation of > Klattau was more recent. Also, I have one great-uncle still living, and he > thinks he remembers them changing the Benes surname from Benesch or Benesh > - so the German might not be too far-fetched. Do you know if the surname > Pinker was very common in that region? They would be the ones I would like > to track down the most. The only reason I'm interested in Benes/Benesch is > that perhaps they came from the same area. But Benes/Benesch is not blood > related to me. > > You mention Bremen shiplists. How would I find those? (that sounds like a > fairly exciting lead...) > > I'd also like to add my thanks to you and Karen - between the two of you, > I > learn so much, and am totally fascinated! > > Becky > > > > > "Aida Kraus" > <akibb1@verizon.n > et> To > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com > 05/10/2006 06:28 cc > PM > Subject > Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing > Please respond to search for family... > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L > @rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > Becky: > What you have been typing as PreuBen is Preußen the ß is a German double > ss > > or "sharp S", so.... they were from Prussia! > Since Silesia was also a part of Austria Hungary but was lost to Prussia > in > the Austrian Prussian war, and since this area is bordering on what is now > the Czech Republic, it could well be that they are from that part. (Of > course the Czech Republic or Czechoslovakia did not exist as yet in March > of > 1892, so there would be no reference to it on that manifest, because that > country did not yet exist.) So, when they left they were either from > Prussia, Austria, Galicia or Poland. But it could very well be that they > came from an area which later became part of the newly formed > Czechoslovakia in 1919, and that was long after they had left there. > The surname Benes, written as such or with an s at the end, would > indicate that they were of Czech ethnicity, while when their name is > spelled > with sch at the end, like Benesch, they were most likely a German family. > Since this name is as common in the Czech Republic (as Smith is here in > America) you will have a hard time to find the correct location. Your clue > is the recording "Preussen". So it is in the general area I listed > before. > Actually, you can only go by whatever lead documents or letters you can > find, or by remembering a village name, or perhaps you could go back to > the > > passenger list (not upon their arrival) but from where they sailed, > because > > sometimes they listed the places of origin in the Bremen shipslists. The > Bremen shiplists should have an alphabetical index. like the Ellis Island > register. Look for Benes and Benesch and see if someone has Preussen > (Prussia) and the same first names listged on it, and then, perhaps, you > may > be able to narrow it down. I certainly hope so. Good luck! > Aida > ------------------------------ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <Becky.Champion@equifax.com> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 7:31 AM > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing search for family... > > >> >> >> >> >> Hello, all! I am renewing a search for my genealogy block in the CR. My >> G-G-Grandmother, Johanna Pinker, came over in March of 1892 (she was 29), >> with her 6 year old son, Gordian (the passenger manifest has him listed > as >> Kordian). The manifest lists their origination as Klattau. She would > never >> speak of where she came from, nor who sired Gordian. Johanna's brother, >> Anton (Tony) came over in June of 1883, with an place of origin listed as >> PreuBen. The name below him on the manifest shows Catherine Benes, whom > he >> married. Catherine's brother, Josef, married Johanna after she came over >> in >> 1892. Josef adopted Gordian, who then became Gordian Benes. >> >> I'm trying to trace Johanna and/or Anton back to the CR, but have had no >> success. Family stories have been passed down that Johanna was "deathly >> afraid" of anyone in uniform. That may indicate to me that she was raped, >> or something else traumatic happened to her. As she would not speak of > her >> homeland, I have no idea what trials she faced. >> >> Any help or direction would be much appreciated! >> >> Thanks, >> >> Becky >> >> >> >> This message contains information from Equifax Inc. which may be >> confidential and privileged. If you are not an intended recipient, > please >> refrain from any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this >> information and note that such actions are prohibited. If you have >> received this transmission in error, please notify by e-mail >> postmaster@equifax.com. >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >> list? To search the archives, go to: >> > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN >> > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > > > > > This message contains information from Equifax Inc. which may be > confidential and privileged. If you are not an intended recipient, please > refrain from any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this > information and note that such actions are prohibited. If you have > received this transmission in error, please notify by e-mail > postmaster@equifax.com. > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To browse the archives, go to: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >

Someone recommended this website and I find it really helpful: stevemorse.org ----- Original Message ----- From: <Becky.Champion@equifax.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 6:35 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing search for family... Yes - I agree with Prussia for Anton's notation. Since he came in 1883 and Johanna came so much later, I didn't know if perhaps her notation of Klattau was more recent. Also, I have one great-uncle still living, and he thinks he remembers them changing the Benes surname from Benesch or Benesh - so the German might not be too far-fetched. Do you know if the surname Pinker was very common in that region? They would be the ones I would like to track down the most. The only reason I'm interested in Benes/Benesch is that perhaps they came from the same area. But Benes/Benesch is not blood related to me. You mention Bremen shiplists. How would I find those? (that sounds like a fairly exciting lead...) I'd also like to add my thanks to you and Karen - between the two of you, I learn so much, and am totally fascinated! Becky "Aida Kraus" <akibb1@verizon.n et> To GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com 05/10/2006 06:28 cc PM Subject Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing Please respond to search for family... GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L @rootsweb.com Becky: What you have been typing as PreuBen is Preußen the ß is a German double ss or "sharp S", so.... they were from Prussia! Since Silesia was also a part of Austria Hungary but was lost to Prussia in the Austrian Prussian war, and since this area is bordering on what is now the Czech Republic, it could well be that they are from that part. (Of course the Czech Republic or Czechoslovakia did not exist as yet in March of 1892, so there would be no reference to it on that manifest, because that country did not yet exist.) So, when they left they were either from Prussia, Austria, Galicia or Poland. But it could very well be that they came from an area which later became part of the newly formed Czechoslovakia in 1919, and that was long after they had left there. The surname Benes, written as such or with an s at the end, would indicate that they were of Czech ethnicity, while when their name is spelled with sch at the end, like Benesch, they were most likely a German family. Since this name is as common in the Czech Republic (as Smith is here in America) you will have a hard time to find the correct location. Your clue is the recording "Preussen". So it is in the general area I listed before. Actually, you can only go by whatever lead documents or letters you can find, or by remembering a village name, or perhaps you could go back to the passenger list (not upon their arrival) but from where they sailed, because sometimes they listed the places of origin in the Bremen shipslists. The Bremen shiplists should have an alphabetical index. like the Ellis Island register. Look for Benes and Benesch and see if someone has Preussen (Prussia) and the same first names listged on it, and then, perhaps, you may be able to narrow it down. I certainly hope so. Good luck! Aida ------------------------------ ----- Original Message ----- From: <Becky.Champion@equifax.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 7:31 AM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing search for family... > > > > > Hello, all! I am renewing a search for my genealogy block in the CR. My > G-G-Grandmother, Johanna Pinker, came over in March of 1892 (she was 29), > with her 6 year old son, Gordian (the passenger manifest has him listed as > Kordian). The manifest lists their origination as Klattau. She would never > speak of where she came from, nor who sired Gordian. Johanna's brother, > Anton (Tony) came over in June of 1883, with an place of origin listed as > PreuBen. The name below him on the manifest shows Catherine Benes, whom he > married. Catherine's brother, Josef, married Johanna after she came over > in > 1892. Josef adopted Gordian, who then became Gordian Benes. > > I'm trying to trace Johanna and/or Anton back to the CR, but have had no > success. Family stories have been passed down that Johanna was "deathly > afraid" of anyone in uniform. That may indicate to me that she was raped, > or something else traumatic happened to her. As she would not speak of her > homeland, I have no idea what trials she faced. > > Any help or direction would be much appreciated! > > Thanks, > > Becky > > > > This message contains information from Equifax Inc. which may be > confidential and privileged. If you are not an intended recipient, please > refrain from any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this > information and note that such actions are prohibited. If you have > received this transmission in error, please notify by e-mail > postmaster@equifax.com. > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To search the archives, go to: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ This message contains information from Equifax Inc. which may be confidential and privileged. If you are not an intended recipient, please refrain from any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this information and note that such actions are prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify by e-mail postmaster@equifax.com. ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the list? To browse the archives, go to: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/

On the ship's log it says "Bohemia" only. I am wondering if I can find where they were buried in Michigan if they would have an exact town name mentioned in the records. Either that or would the marriage record for their daughters in Michigan mention what town they came from? Thanks, Pam >From: "Aida Kraus" <akibb1@verizon.net> >Reply-To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com >To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing search for family... >Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 17:23:52 -0700 > >For Pam: >Wohlmann is a German name and could be from anywhere in Germany. My name >Lexicon refers to Wohlmann as: >Wohltmann, a name from Northern Germany, a derivation of Waldmann = man of >the Forest. And there is a Woldmann and Woltmann originating in the area >of Hamburg. There is no mention of any other place, but you may go to the >website and key in Woltmann, and check for a site where the frequency of >last names are given in relation to a map of the country. I don't have >this at my fingertips right now, because I am just programming my new >computer and all the old files are not yet transferred. But just hit the >URLS on Google and Yahoo websites, even German Yahoo websites with >questions like: "surnames and areas" etc. eventually you should get to >that map. Type in the last name and then it should show spots where these >names occur to this day, you can also go to the Hamburg telephone book >white pages and look at Woltmann. Go to the ships manifest at Bremen and >search 1878 departures of that name, perhaps they wrote down the area where >they came from. >Aida > >----- Original Message ----- From: "PJ V" <netkitty@hotmail.com> >To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 4:53 PM >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing search for family... > > >>Aida: >> >>I wonder if you could tell me what area my Bohemian surname of Wohlman >>would likely be from? They immigrated in 1878 from the port of Bremen. >>Their origin was said to be Bohemia in the beginning but later they stated >>either Germany or Austria around 1900. >> >>Thanks. >> >>Pam >> >> >> >>==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >>list? To browse the archives, go to: >>http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >> > > >==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the list? >To browse the archives, go to: >http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >

Aida: I wonder if you could tell me what area my Bohemian surname of Wohlman would likely be from? They immigrated in 1878 from the port of Bremen. Their origin was said to be Bohemia in the beginning but later they stated either Germany or Austria around 1900. Thanks. Pam

In a message dated 5/10/2006 2:37:55 PM Mountain Standard Time, akibb1@verizon.net writes: It is a fact that the Austrian Empire was - in fact - the first United States of Europe! The Austrian Empire was united only because the Austrian Kaiser had managed to become hereditary king of the kingdom of Bohemia and Hungary as well as the ruler of the hereditary Austrian lands. His power brought others into the fold becasue they were willing to submit in order to have his protection or to be shed of a less benign ruler. For example, the Bosnians wanted to prevent the Serbs from taken them over so they asked Austria to protect them (witness the more recent history in that area between the Serbs and Bosnians, Croatians and Slovenians). The Austrian Kaiser also managed to make himself or his heirs the hereditary Holy Roman Emperor during the 18th century which made him the supreme ruler of all of Germany -- and having the German states under his thumb made him even more powerful. Saxony, Hannover, Bavaria, Mainz and others where very fai thful to the Austrian Kaiser (Bavarian princesses married Austrian Habsburgs) as a means to protect their own interest agains a rising Prussian power. Not that they all just bowed and obeyed -- there were many fights and full-fledged wars between various German powers and the Holy Roman Emperor over time -- including medieval battles between Bavaria and the HRE.. Napoleon finally brought the HRE to an end in the first decade of 1800 and that was when the Austrian Empire became a separate entity again. The Kaiser always had to be somewhat careful to keep the nobillity of each crownland allied / alligned with him or risk uprisings or wars of independence. He did that with high offices in Vienna that also had high pensions, with gifts of estates confiscated fromn those he could not trust and other favors. The Hungarians were particularly eager to separate as an autonomous state (the Austro-Hungarian war in 1849-50 was pretty bloody) and achieved some autonomy after 1868 when the old empire became known as the "Austro-Hungarian Dual Monarchy" (I wonder where the Bohemian crown fit into that interpretation?) . But the Kaiser still wore the Hungarian crown of an "autonomous" Hungary. One thing that Austria failed to do in terms of a "united" federation was to make an economic partnership between the crownlands so all could trade back and forth without customs or other taxes. But the Kaiser was more interested in tax revenue than in efficient economics -- even after Prussia established a German trade bund that gave them a distinct advantage in the overall economy of Europe and was clearly a means to building wealth. Can you imagine what it would be like if the US if every state charged a tax on goods that passed through it on the way to another state? Under the circumstances it is amazing that the empire and subsequent dual monarchy lasted as long as it did. Karen

In a message dated 5/9/2006 10:58:11 PM Mountain Standard Time, akibb1@verizon.net writes: but not all villages had churches and they only appear when the churches were built and the recording started. All villages belonged to a parish community. Some people walked up to 8-10 km to get to church. Shoes were expensive and they would walk in their bare feet when weather permitted or in wooden shoes with thick woolen socks (if they had no boots) and put on shoes just before entering the church. The vital records for all the villages in a single parish community would be kept in the church. Some older villages that had churches lost their pastors and the church was designated a chaple and was used only on certain days special to the community like a certain saint's day (the patron of the village). If there were enough residents in a village with a church a chaplain might be assigned. He was like an assistant pastor and he would say masses on sundays and hear confessions but the other sacraments like baptism, confirmation, marriage had to be conducted at the main parish church except emergency baptisms. Some villages built churches in the hopes that they would get a chaplain. The churches that were not consecrated parish churches might be used as meeting places for prayerful events other than Holy Mass and the sacraments. One such event might be saying goodby to and praying for village men who had been drafted. Once a church was consecrated, its use for "lay" events would be restricted. Some village chapels were very small and would not hold many people. Those small chapels would not qualify to have a chaplain but the priest would still come from the parish center to say masses there on a special day. The village would gather outside around the chapel because there might only be room inside for some of the most "important" people. The next step up for a church was to be designated a filial; (affiliated) church. They would have a priest permanently assigned but they were still not considered a parish church. In theory they served only one place rather than a whole community of several places even if people from neighboring villages preferred to go there rather than all the way to the parish center.. Filial churches could perform all the sacraments that did not require a bishop but they did not keep the records -- everything they recorded was sent to and kept at the main parish church. Filial churches could become parish churches if there were enough residents supporting them. They would then begin to keep their own records. When an ancestral village is known the next step is to learn the name of the parish community to which it belonged if it was not itself a parish center. It is also important to know how long it was a parish center. If it received that designation relatively late then some records of ancestors born there may be with another nearby parish. J.G. Sommer's 16-volume collection" Das Königreich Böhmen" lists each village in Bohemia (not including Moravia) by name and tells were its residents went to church and the name of the church. Gregor Wolny "Das Markgrafschaft Mähren" does the same for Moravia. Each author wrote one volume for each district of either Bohemia or Moravia. An author search of the World Catalog should find the works of both authors - ask your research librarian to help you find the book(s) you want -- the one(s) for your ancestral districts. Sign up for lending privelges at a college or university library to get copies of these books at the least cost. Check if that library will let you take a book that is more than 100 years old out of the library reading room. (A teacher or other person associated with the same institution may be able to get the books for free, take them to his/her office and to use them for up to three months vs. 2 weeks for a student or other borrower.) An interesting complication regarding church records is how many churches changed from catholic to protestant -- back and forth more than once -- over the period when religion became a political power tool among many of the nobility. When a nobleman converted for whatever reason he would demand that everyone of his serfs would also convert and he would designate all churches in his dominon as the denomination he chose. Even though all of the churches began as Catholic parishes, many became protestant for a time during the Hussite wars and then, again, during the reformation. They returned to Roman Catholic inbetween those two episodes. After the Thirty Years War the areas of Bohemia that needed new population were settled by Catholics. The Kaiser demanded that all noblemen either convert or swear allegiance to a Catholic Kaiser (if they fought on his side during the war) and that all the population of Bohemia should be Catholic. The city of As (Asch) was allowed to remain protestant as were parts of Moravia (different politics there). So when you are looking for ancestral vital records you may find that the church of Stes. Peter and Paul in XXX village first has documents in Latin written by a priest and then in Czech or German written by a protestant pastor and then in Latin again until German became the official language for all records after 1740. There are some military church books dated later than 1740 - 1760 that are still in Latin and I have seen reports of a few records dated as late as the 1780s that were in Czech. Always remember that if your ancestors were of a different denomination than the denomination "of record" of their parish church, the records for that parish should still be searched. Local parish churches even recorded Jewish vital records when there was no other means for that -- no nearby synagogue or Rabbi who would take care of it. Searching the films at the LDS using the keyword "Jewish" will sometimes show a title for a Catholic church. This in not a mistake. Examine the film notes for that title and there will probably be a film or two with notes saying it includes some records for Jewish residents of the area. Likewise if a search for "Evangelical" or "brethren" or "ultraquist" hits on a title that is not that denominatioon it may simply mean that at one time that church was an Evangelical church or that a few protestant records are included in the church books because there was no protestant pastor to take care of that. Karen

Well put Karen, and the greatest success the Austrian Hungarian Empire achieved was through marriage into virtually every royal house of Europe, including the Kingdom of Bohemia, who were Luxembourgers since Johann of Luxembourg in 1370-96 whose father was the Holy Roman Emperor Henri VII and his Mother Margarethe of Brabant. You can check the royal genealogical table at: http://www.worldroots.com/cgi-bin/gasteldb?@I109418@. Johann married Elisabeth of Bohemia whose father was the King of Bohemia +Poland Wenceslas II - and this is how the Przemisl Slavic line got into it - and her mother was Jutta von Habsburg and this is how Bohemia connected to Austria, to answer your question. The language at court was German and French. Aida ------------------------------------------------------ ----- Original Message ----- From: <KarenHob@aol.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 8:36 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Thirty Years' War depopulation figures > In a message dated 5/10/2006 2:37:55 PM Mountain Standard Time, > akibb1@verizon.net writes: > It is a fact that the Austrian Empire was - in fact - the first United > States of Europe! > The Austrian Empire was united only because the Austrian Kaiser had > managed > to become hereditary king of the kingdom of Bohemia and Hungary as well as > the > ruler of the hereditary Austrian lands. His power brought others into > the > fold becasue they were willing to submit in order to have his protection > or to > be shed of a less benign ruler. For example, the Bosnians wanted to > prevent > the Serbs from taken them over so they asked Austria to protect them > (witness > the more recent history in that area between the Serbs and Bosnians, > Croatians and Slovenians). > > The Austrian Kaiser also managed to make himself or his heirs the > hereditary > Holy Roman Emperor during the 18th century which made him the supreme > ruler > of all of Germany -- and having the German states under his thumb made him > even > more powerful. Saxony, Hannover, Bavaria, Mainz and others where very > fai > thful to the Austrian Kaiser (Bavarian princesses married Austrian > Habsburgs) as > a means to protect their own interest agains a rising Prussian power. > Not > that they all just bowed and obeyed -- there were many fights and > full-fledged > wars between various German powers and the Holy Roman Emperor over time -- > including medieval battles between Bavaria and the HRE.. Napoleon > finally > brought the HRE to an end in the first decade of 1800 and that was when > the > Austrian Empire became a separate entity again. > > The Kaiser always had to be somewhat careful to keep the nobillity of each > crownland allied / alligned with him or risk uprisings or wars of > independence. > He did that with high offices in Vienna that also had high pensions, > with > gifts of estates confiscated fromn those he could not trust and other > favors. > > > The Hungarians were particularly eager to separate as an autonomous state > (the Austro-Hungarian war in 1849-50 was pretty bloody) and achieved some > autonomy after 1868 when the old empire became known as the > "Austro-Hungarian Dual > Monarchy" (I wonder where the Bohemian crown fit into that > interpretation?) . > But the Kaiser still wore the Hungarian crown of an "autonomous" Hungary. > > One thing that Austria failed to do in terms of a "united" federation was > to > make an economic partnership between the crownlands so all could trade > back > and forth without customs or other taxes. But the Kaiser was more > interested > in tax revenue than in efficient economics -- even after Prussia > established > a German trade bund that gave them a distinct advantage in the overall > economy > of Europe and was clearly a means to building wealth. > > Can you imagine what it would be like if the US if every state charged a > tax > on goods that passed through it on the way to another state? > > Under the circumstances it is amazing that the empire and subsequent dual > monarchy lasted as long as it did. > > Karen > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >

Just want to than you Aida - while this doesn't refer to me in anyway - I am sure learning a LOT of history!! Didn't realize I was so "Americanized"!!! and knew NOTHING...:-) Pam ~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ Warrenton, MO http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com Looking for surnames of MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), DILLON, CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, SCHALLOM, STEPPIG, MEES/MAES, REIS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, KRAFT, BANGERT, DIESEL, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, RAPP, MENTEL, SHELLHORN, STALEY, WEBER, THOELE, MITCHELL, PROBST, GOLD ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aida Kraus" <akibb1@verizon.net> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 5:28 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing search for family... Becky: What you have been typing as PreuBen is Preußen the ß is a German double ss or "sharp S", so.... they were from Prussia! Since Silesia was also a part of Austria Hungary but was lost to Prussia in the Austrian Prussian war, and since this area is bordering on what is now the Czech Republic, it could well be that they are from that part. (Of course the Czech Republic or Czechoslovakia did not exist as yet in March of 1892, so there would be no reference to it on that manifest, because that country did not yet exist.) So, when they left they were either from Prussia, Austria, Galicia or Poland. But it could very well be that they came from an area which later became part of the newly formed Czechoslovakia in 1919, and that was long after they had left there. The surname Benes, written as such or with an s at the end, would indicate that they were of Czech ethnicity, while when their name is spelled with sch at the end, like Benesch, they were most likely a German family. Since this name is as common in the Czech Republic (as Smith is here in America) you will have a hard time to find the correct location. Your clue is the recording "Preussen". So it is in the general area I listed before. Actually, you can only go by whatever lead documents or letters you can find, or by remembering a village name, or perhaps you could go back to the passenger list (not upon their arrival) but from where they sailed, because sometimes they listed the places of origin in the Bremen shipslists. The Bremen shiplists should have an alphabetical index. like the Ellis Island register. Look for Benes and Benesch and see if someone has Preussen (Prussia) and the same first names listged on it, and then, perhaps, you may be able to narrow it down. I certainly hope so. Good luck! Aida ------------------------------ ----- Original Message ----- From: <Becky.Champion@equifax.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 7:31 AM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing search for family... > > > > > Hello, all! I am renewing a search for my genealogy block in the CR. My > G-G-Grandmother, Johanna Pinker, came over in March of 1892 (she was 29), > with her 6 year old son, Gordian (the passenger manifest has him listed as > Kordian). The manifest lists their origination as Klattau. She would never > speak of where she came from, nor who sired Gordian. Johanna's brother, > Anton (Tony) came over in June of 1883, with an place of origin listed as > PreuBen. The name below him on the manifest shows Catherine Benes, whom he > married. Catherine's brother, Josef, married Johanna after she came over > in > 1892. Josef adopted Gordian, who then became Gordian Benes. > > I'm trying to trace Johanna and/or Anton back to the CR, but have had no > success. Family stories have been passed down that Johanna was "deathly > afraid" of anyone in uniform. That may indicate to me that she was raped, > or something else traumatic happened to her. As she would not speak of her > homeland, I have no idea what trials she faced. > > Any help or direction would be much appreciated! > > Thanks, > > Becky > > > > This message contains information from Equifax Inc. which may be > confidential and privileged. If you are not an intended recipient, please > refrain from any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this > information and note that such actions are prohibited. If you have > received this transmission in error, please notify by e-mail > postmaster@equifax.com. > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To search the archives, go to: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/

Not your fault my dear... history taught in grade and high-school was geared towards the glorious American history of 300 years. But now, in a global world, we have to look far beyond our borders... and in process we are learning "where we ourselves are actually coming from" .... and that should make history far more interesting to us because it is gradually "coming alive." Happy hunting! Aida --------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pam" <pam@ewebexpress.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 4:25 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing search for family... > Just want to than you Aida - while this doesn't refer to me in anyway - I > am > sure learning a LOT of history!! Didn't realize I was so "Americanized"!!! > and knew NOTHING...:-) > Pam > > ~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ > Warrenton, MO > http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com > http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com > Looking for surnames of MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), DILLON, > CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, > SCHALLOM, STEPPIG, MEES/MAES, REIS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, KRAFT, BANGERT, > DIESEL, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, RAPP, MENTEL, SHELLHORN, STALEY, WEBER, > THOELE, MITCHELL, PROBST, GOLD > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aida Kraus" <akibb1@verizon.net> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 5:28 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing search for family... > > > Becky: > What you have been typing as PreuBen is Preußen the ß is a German double > ss > or "sharp S", so.... they were from Prussia! > Since Silesia was also a part of Austria Hungary but was lost to Prussia > in > the Austrian Prussian war, and since this area is bordering on what is now > the Czech Republic, it could well be that they are from that part. (Of > course the Czech Republic or Czechoslovakia did not exist as yet in March > of > 1892, so there would be no reference to it on that manifest, because that > country did not yet exist.) So, when they left they were either from > Prussia, Austria, Galicia or Poland. But it could very well be that they > came from an area which later became part of the newly formed > Czechoslovakia in 1919, and that was long after they had left there. > The surname Benes, written as such or with an s at the end, would > indicate that they were of Czech ethnicity, while when their name is > spelled > with sch at the end, like Benesch, they were most likely a German family. > Since this name is as common in the Czech Republic (as Smith is here in > America) you will have a hard time to find the correct location. Your clue > is the recording "Preussen". So it is in the general area I listed > before. > Actually, you can only go by whatever lead documents or letters you can > find, or by remembering a village name, or perhaps you could go back to > the > passenger list (not upon their arrival) but from where they sailed, > because > sometimes they listed the places of origin in the Bremen shipslists. The > Bremen shiplists should have an alphabetical index. like the Ellis Island > register. Look for Benes and Benesch and see if someone has Preussen > (Prussia) and the same first names listged on it, and then, perhaps, you > may > be able to narrow it down. I certainly hope so. Good luck! > Aida > ------------------------------ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <Becky.Champion@equifax.com> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 7:31 AM > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing search for family... > > >> >> >> >> >> Hello, all! I am renewing a search for my genealogy block in the CR. My >> G-G-Grandmother, Johanna Pinker, came over in March of 1892 (she was 29), >> with her 6 year old son, Gordian (the passenger manifest has him listed >> as >> Kordian). The manifest lists their origination as Klattau. She would >> never >> speak of where she came from, nor who sired Gordian. Johanna's brother, >> Anton (Tony) came over in June of 1883, with an place of origin listed as >> PreuBen. The name below him on the manifest shows Catherine Benes, whom >> he >> married. Catherine's brother, Josef, married Johanna after she came over >> in >> 1892. Josef adopted Gordian, who then became Gordian Benes. >> >> I'm trying to trace Johanna and/or Anton back to the CR, but have had no >> success. Family stories have been passed down that Johanna was "deathly >> afraid" of anyone in uniform. That may indicate to me that she was raped, >> or something else traumatic happened to her. As she would not speak of >> her >> homeland, I have no idea what trials she faced. >> >> Any help or direction would be much appreciated! >> >> Thanks, >> >> Becky >> >> >> >> This message contains information from Equifax Inc. which may be >> confidential and privileged. If you are not an intended recipient, >> please >> refrain from any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this >> information and note that such actions are prohibited. If you have >> received this transmission in error, please notify by e-mail >> postmaster@equifax.com. >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >> list? To search the archives, go to: >> http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN >> > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To search the archives, go to: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN >

For Pam: Wohlmann is a German name and could be from anywhere in Germany. My name Lexicon refers to Wohlmann as: Wohltmann, a name from Northern Germany, a derivation of Waldmann = man of the Forest. And there is a Woldmann and Woltmann originating in the area of Hamburg. There is no mention of any other place, but you may go to the website and key in Woltmann, and check for a site where the frequency of last names are given in relation to a map of the country. I don't have this at my fingertips right now, because I am just programming my new computer and all the old files are not yet transferred. But just hit the URLS on Google and Yahoo websites, even German Yahoo websites with questions like: "surnames and areas" etc. eventually you should get to that map. Type in the last name and then it should show spots where these names occur to this day, you can also go to the Hamburg telephone book white pages and look at Woltmann. Go to the ships manifest at Bremen and search 1878 departures of that name, perhaps they wrote down the area where they came from. Aida ----- Original Message ----- From: "PJ V" <netkitty@hotmail.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing search for family... > Aida: > > I wonder if you could tell me what area my Bohemian surname of Wohlman > would likely be from? They immigrated in 1878 from the port of Bremen. > Their origin was said to be Bohemia in the beginning but later they stated > either Germany or Austria around 1900. > > Thanks. > > Pam > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To browse the archives, go to: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >

My Weber goes back on my husband's side (so I don't have a whole lot :-<) to a Joseph Weber, Sr. (1-05-1833 to 1-12-1892, born in Coerbecke Kries, Germany m to Catherine W. Probst (7-19-1841 to 5-10-1904) born in Kries Ahans Prussia. The both lived in Teutopolis, IL and had the following children: Elizabeth P., Henry, Anna, Joseph H. Jr., Charles J., Bernard, William Francis, John and Mary E.. My husband's line comes down thru Joseph H Jr WEBER m to Mary E. Thoele and his grandmotehr was their child Dorothy C. m to Edgar William Staley. any connection? Pam ~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ Warrenton, MO http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com Looking for surnames of MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), DILLON, CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, SCHALLOM, STEPPIG, MEES/MAES, REIS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, KRAFT, BANGERT, DIESEL, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, RAPP, MENTEL, SHELLHORN, STALEY, WEBER, THOELE, MITCHELL, PROBST, GOLD ----- Original Message ----- From: "randy mathes" <RANDALMATHES@peoplepc.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:32 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where did they come from Pam, where are your Webers, from, i have Weber in my family, from Bavaria Randy Mathes ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pam" <pam@ewebexpress.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where did they come from > AIDA!! thank you so so much!! this is very very helpful - it's like > piecing > together a foreign jigsaw puzzle and not knowing how to speak the > language! > :-) . .... which of course is exactly what it is! > > I'm off to do some searching! > > ~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ > Warrenton, MO > http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com > http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com > Looking for surnames of MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), DILLON, > CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, > SCHALLOM, STEPPIG, MEES/MAES, REIS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, KRAFT, BANGERT, > DIESEL, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, RAPP, MENTEL, SHELLHORN, STALEY, WEBER, > THOELE, MITCHELL, PROBST, GOLD > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aida Kraus" <akibb1@verizon.net> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 10:24 AM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where > did > they come from > > > A half-farmer means that he had a profession besides his farm. Usually > they > were butchers, bakers, innkeepers, etc. and also had a small farm holding. > A Burgher is a freeman living in a town and that he lived in a house with > a > low number means that he was a prominent person.. Probably one of the > first > ones to settle in this town and was probably on the city council or an > elder. If the records describe him as "Burgher" or "Richter" then he was a > city or village official - check the original documents carefully! > Burgher > means that he had the right to live in a town as a freeman and not as a > serf > for the nobility or abbey. > Merklin is Merkelsgrün just a bit to the North of Karlsbad (Karlovy > Vary > on a Czech map) on the foot of the picturesque Ore Mountains. > There are 9 Stankov towns in Bohemia, you will have to let me know > which > one it is, look in the documents perhaps it gives the "Kreis" (district) > and > then you can find it on this map I presume that it is the one closest to > Deutschreichenau "Rychnuvek" or the Castle Hradec. Check this link: > http://www.mapy.cz/?st=search&fr=Stankov&pw=541&ph=428&ocx=133890048&ocy=134938624&ozm=5&omp=base > and since the person of this town married a rather wealthy farmer's > daughter > from Deutschreichenau belonging to the Manor of Hradec, the Stankov above > might be in that surrounding area and you will have to do a little > hunting. > To give you a clue, Deutschreichenau can be found as "Rychnuvek" on this > above www.mapy.cz. just North of the Austrian-Bohemian border. And this > Hradec had the German name Wittinghausen at all times with the old castle > of > Wittigstein (1220-1277) established by the German Wittigonen. Here is a > link in English that you can read of describing this historic place: > http://www.ckrumlov.cz/uk/region/histor/t_vithra.htm > Pucherdorf must also be in that area and you have to hunt for it, I cannot > find the Czech equivalent at this time, perhaps someone out there could > help > in this! Or you can use the rules for finding places with their URL links > I > posted just a few days back. See GBHS archives and you will be able to > help > yourself. > Aida > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pam" <pam@ewebexpress.com> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 7:11 AM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where > did > they come from > > >> I'm also searching for family in this era - and I have a town in Bohemia >> that I've been searching for but find little on it - and was wondering if >> the name had changed - >> >> I'm searching for surname of SCHALLOM/SCHALOM/SCHOLLUM and the town I >> have >> is Celakovy - which according to google is located in CZ and it has a big >> map but that is the only thing I can find on this town. I also have the >> following info from a fellow relative in NZ who was gracious enough to >> give >> me this info - and I'd like to find out more if possible - any info or >> direction would be so appreciated: >> >> ***** >> JOHN SCHALLOM >> >> Date of wedding: 26th Apr 1842. >> Place of wedding: Stankov - town. >> Bridegroom: SCHALOM Johann, son of CHRISTOPH SCHALOM half-farmer >> from Merklin # 35 and of Maria. >> 26 years old, [ie born around 1816] single, catholic religion. >> Bride: MARIA WEISS, legitimate daughter of GEORG WEISS burger in >> Stankov-town # 25 and of BARBARA daughter of THOMAS ENTELWEBER >> estate-owner in Deutschreichenau # 110, manor Hradec and of >> Theresia nee Huter from Pucherdorf. ?? years old, single, catholic >> >> ************** >> Can somone tell me what a HALF farmer is and what a BURGER is? I have >> not >> been able to get any really good info on my surnames in these areas so if >> anyone has an idea of where I can search, I would appreciate it. >> >> ~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ >> Warrenton, MO >> http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com >> http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com >> Looking for surnames of MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), DILLON, >> CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, >> SCHALLOM, STEPPIG, MEES/MAES, REIS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, KRAFT, BANGERT, >> DIESEL, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, RAPP, MENTEL, SHELLHORN, STALEY, WEBER, >> THOELE, MITCHELL, PROBST, GOLD >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Aida Kraus" <akibb1@verizon.net> >> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 11:57 PM >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where >> did >> they come from >> >> >> To Jean in Florida: >> They may have lived there all their lives, like all natives do..... but >> not >> all villages had churches and they only appear when the churches were >> built >> and the recording started. If they lived close to a monastery the >> records >> go as far back as when the cloister was built. Remember that everyone >> was >> a >> heathen before Christianity ...or they believed in their Germanic >> mythological gods... until they were converted. The Catholic faith was >> dominant between 600 and 1380 in middle Europe and it came to the area of >> Fulda and Wuerzburg from Ireland with St. Kilian. In 1380 the Wycliffe >> Thesis, a Protestant theorem, was taught by Jan Hus at the German >> University >> at Prague. Later Martin Luther took up the Protestant teaching. This >> lead >> to the 30 years war which ended 1648 but during which most of the >> churches >> and cloisters were burned. In Bohemia a census was taken in 1651 called >> Berni Rula because in that religious war more than 50% of the population >> succumbed and they needed to know what population was left over. This >> census is called Berni Rula and I gave "direction" to it a few days back, >> look in the archives. >> I myself have Zicklers in my family from the area of Marienbad-Tepl. >> Stift (Abby) Tepl was one of the earliest Catholic settlements in the >> Egerland by the Prämonstratenser order. It is wise to familiarize >> yourself >> with the history of the area you are researching. You can also read about >> it >> on the internet if you key in "Stift Tepl, Bohemia" or this website: >> http://www.premontre.org/subpages/propriadocumenta/periodica/sec-analecta.htm >> >> All your names appear to me to be either Egerlander or Bavarian-Bohemian >> German names and they were lived this area since time began. People did >> not >> move very far from their hometowns and most of the families lived in the >> same houses for 350 years. Each generation improved the premises and the >> houses were built of stone to last centuries. Most of the farms were >> quite >> substantial. >> Aida >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "JEAN" <JEAN74@TAMPABAY.RR.COM> >> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 10:19 PM >> Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where did >> they come from >> >> >>> Hi List, I am searching for these families HORL, HOERL, HERL, ZICKLER, >>> NOBERT, LOW,LOEW, HOLLER, HOELLER, RADL. >>> I have some of them in Bohemia by 1740 but re did they come from, they >>> just appear in the 1700s >>> can anyone out there tell me did they come from Austria, Germany I am >>> beginning to think that they dropped out of space. >>> Thanks for any help >>> Jean in Fl >>> >>> >>> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >>> list? To browse the archives, go to: >>> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >>> >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? >> Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >> > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? > Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the list? To browse the archives, go to: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/

Thanks Bob and I'm still awake Jean in Fl how can we know where we are going , if we don't where we came from

Becky: What you have been typing as PreuBen is Preußen the ß is a German double ss or "sharp S", so.... they were from Prussia! Since Silesia was also a part of Austria Hungary but was lost to Prussia in the Austrian Prussian war, and since this area is bordering on what is now the Czech Republic, it could well be that they are from that part. (Of course the Czech Republic or Czechoslovakia did not exist as yet in March of 1892, so there would be no reference to it on that manifest, because that country did not yet exist.) So, when they left they were either from Prussia, Austria, Galicia or Poland. But it could very well be that they came from an area which later became part of the newly formed Czechoslovakia in 1919, and that was long after they had left there. The surname Benes, written as such or with an s at the end, would indicate that they were of Czech ethnicity, while when their name is spelled with sch at the end, like Benesch, they were most likely a German family. Since this name is as common in the Czech Republic (as Smith is here in America) you will have a hard time to find the correct location. Your clue is the recording "Preussen". So it is in the general area I listed before. Actually, you can only go by whatever lead documents or letters you can find, or by remembering a village name, or perhaps you could go back to the passenger list (not upon their arrival) but from where they sailed, because sometimes they listed the places of origin in the Bremen shipslists. The Bremen shiplists should have an alphabetical index. like the Ellis Island register. Look for Benes and Benesch and see if someone has Preussen (Prussia) and the same first names listged on it, and then, perhaps, you may be able to narrow it down. I certainly hope so. Good luck! Aida ------------------------------ ----- Original Message ----- From: <Becky.Champion@equifax.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 7:31 AM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing search for family... > > > > > Hello, all! I am renewing a search for my genealogy block in the CR. My > G-G-Grandmother, Johanna Pinker, came over in March of 1892 (she was 29), > with her 6 year old son, Gordian (the passenger manifest has him listed as > Kordian). The manifest lists their origination as Klattau. She would never > speak of where she came from, nor who sired Gordian. Johanna's brother, > Anton (Tony) came over in June of 1883, with an place of origin listed as > PreuBen. The name below him on the manifest shows Catherine Benes, whom he > married. Catherine's brother, Josef, married Johanna after she came over > in > 1892. Josef adopted Gordian, who then became Gordian Benes. > > I'm trying to trace Johanna and/or Anton back to the CR, but have had no > success. Family stories have been passed down that Johanna was "deathly > afraid" of anyone in uniform. That may indicate to me that she was raped, > or something else traumatic happened to her. As she would not speak of her > homeland, I have no idea what trials she faced. > > Any help or direction would be much appreciated! > > Thanks, > > Becky > > > > This message contains information from Equifax Inc. which may be > confidential and privileged. If you are not an intended recipient, please > refrain from any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this > information and note that such actions are prohibited. If you have > received this transmission in error, please notify by e-mail > postmaster@equifax.com. > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To search the archives, go to: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN >

Good stuff; good interpretation too! Many thanks, Bob ... Happy to have your comments, and, no, you didn't "put me to sleep" ;-) Jo Davis ----- Original Message ----- From: "randy mathes" <RANDALMATHES@peoplepc.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:12 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Thirty Years' War depopulation figures > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Ullman" <ullman@easystreet.com> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 12:31 PM > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Thirty Years' War depopulation figures > > >> It appears that I have been missing the boat on how to respond to >> postings from others. So I will try this approach. Hope I have not >> incovenienced anyone with my misdirected responses in the past. And I >> would be glad to hear whether I am sending this message to the proper >> location or not. >> >> I fully agree with Karen Hobbs' suggestion that in pursuing one's 17th >> century ancestors it is of utmost importance to become familiar with some >> of the historical background. The Thirty Years' War has been described >> by some historians as "the first world war," and it brought with it all >> the dislocations and stresses of any other world war. Understanding that >> might lead a family historian to look about for possiblities which s/he >> might not otherwise have considered. For example, some of our ancestors >> undoubtedly became camp followers during the war. That became a way of >> life and when the war ended many may have felt as did one individual in >> Olmutz, Moravia that "I was born in war, I have no home, no country and >> no friends, war is all my wealth and now whither shall I go? For some of >> our ancestors this meant wandering the roads as some of the freed >> American slaves did following the end of the Civil War. Eventually they >> had to settle somewhere. We may never know wher! >> e they were born. Or who their parents were. Or if it really matters - >> many young girls were de-flowered by soldiers and outlaws during this >> war. >> To assist those who may not know a great deal about this >> recently-rediscovered war, I have spent a little time with my books and >> can respond to some of Karen's comments concerning population loss during >> the Thirty Years' War. Specifially, she stated that "The new settlers >> were there because the 30 years war and the expulsions of protestants who >> were unwilling to convert at the wars end left Bohemia / Moravia with a >> population of less than 1, 000,000. Count von Lutzow (Czech historian) >> says in his book "Bohemia, an Historical Sketch" that the population >> before the war was 3,000,.000 and after it ended only 800.000." Now, it >> is true that the Count was, for very many years, the often-quoted >> authority on the subject of population loss during the Thirty Years' War. >> However, modern scholars have come to question his numbers. >> As early as 1961, C.V. Wedgwood stated in her classic, and extremely >> readable, study The Thirty Years' War that "The incredible decrease in >> population claimed for so many districts was to some extent the outcome >> of temporary emigration, and a careful consideration of conditions in >> Germany both before and after the war reveals the fact that society was >> dislocated rather than destroyed. But the marks of that dislocation >> remained long after the limbs had been re-integrated....The old legend >> that the population dropped from sixteen to four million people (these >> figures represent all of Germany (with the exceptions which follow in her >> quotation), i.e. all of the German principalities of the time as well as >> the Habsburg Crown Lands), rests on imagination: both figures are >> incorrect. The German Empire, including Alsace but excluding the >> Netherlands and Bohemia, probably numbered about twenty-one millions in >> 1618, and rather less than thirteen and a half millions in 1648. Ce! >> rtain authorities believe that the loss was less, but the figures, which >> have been confused over the generations by propaganda of different kinds, >> are extremely difficult to establish with any certainty." >> In his book, serf, seigneur, and sovereign, William E. Wright notes, >> as Karen also has said, that "During the war many peasants had taken >> flight before marauding armies, leaving their land and forsaking their >> rights to it....To the already generous grants from Ferdinand II, his >> creatures added even more by seizure of untended, previously serf-held >> acreage....Fugitive serfs and discharged soldiers, torn from their social >> moorings and lacking employment, roamed the land....Because of the >> general feeling of insecurity in the kingdom and the conduct of some of >> the fugitives, the Bohemian serf was considered a lawless, or potentially >> lawless, churl who should be closely bound to the land and strictly >> controlled by the lord of the area.... In other words, many people were >> displaced (rather than killed) during the war, and while some certainly >> returned to their villages after the war, others took to roaming the >> countryside, often as outlaws (my own ancestor is shown in The Tax! >> Rolls of 1654 as a schutz [shooter, guard, protector] which means his job >> was to protect against such individuals) leading the authorities to pass >> laws confining the serf's movement and tying him tightly to the land - >> whether it was the land he had been on at the start of the war or not. >> In his more recent (1984) study of the war (The Thirty Years' War) >> Geoffrey Parker cites the example of Linden, a village near Rothenburg, >> which "in 1618...had a total of nine taxable peasant households, plus >> four landless peasants....By 1641...the village was uninhabited--and it >> remained so for the rest of the war. But Linden did not become a >> permanent ghost village. In the decades following the war, settlers >> returned, and by 1690 the village had eleven peasant holdings--bringing >> it, in short, back to its pre-war size." Parker does not relate, or >> probably know, where the new settlers came from. Were they new >> inhabitants or former villagers returning to their homes? Or a >> combination? He does note, however, that "Historians can pinpoint >> hundreds of depopulated villages and reduced cities -- along with >> hundreds of towns and villages which survived the war almost intact." He >> goes on to explain that "There is no doubt, however, that central Europe >> did experience a gen! >> eration of substantial demographic decline. The exact causes of the >> population loss cannot always be determined, but one thing is certain: >> deaths due to military action represented only a minor element in the >> total picture (study their weapons: are you kidding me? How could they >> hit anything?!). War-related food shortages and outbreaks of epidemic >> disease were much greater killers. The most spectacular episodes of >> mortality were due to the bubonic plague, which broke out in many parts >> of central Europe during the war....Many epidemic diseases were spread by >> the movement of infected soldiers or civilians (a well-known cry >> concerning the army of one general in the war was "God help those where >> Mansfield comes!"), but the plague was not among them. For bubonic >> plague is actually a disease of rats, transmitted to humans beings by >> fleas...the old notion that infected rats and fleas travelled in army >> baggage is now discounted by demographers. In addition, plague epidemics >> ! >> were of relatively short duration in any one place, and were often >> followed by a year or two of rapid demographic revovery. In fact the >> long-term population losses associated with the war were generally due to >> less spectacular but more persistent diseases spread by human >> contact --typhus, influenza, dysentery and other illnesses which >> recurred, year after year, in communities whose inhabitants were already >> weakened by war-induced malnutrition and stress." >> So, as with most things, the facts are not as straight-forward as we >> would like for them to be. Consider yourself blessed if you can push >> your family tree back beyond the Thirty Years' War. So far, I cannot. >> Many parish records were lost when churches were burned (by both sides) >> and this presents a major challenge for genealogical research. Beyond >> the language differences, the general chaos which occured during the war >> and in the period immediately afterwards is another reason for the >> confusion over misspellings of names in the Tax List of 1654. Living in >> the Habsburg Lands were people from many places: Scots, Italians, Irish, >> English, Austrians, Czechs, Germans, German-Bohemians, Hungarians, etc., >> etc. The census takers were not always equipped to understand the names >> being spoken by these various nationalities. This was the Emperor's >> attempt to find out who his subjects were, mainly - but not only - for >> tax purposes. A generation had passed and things were no ! >> longer as they had been in 1618. >> >> Hope I haven't put everyone to sleep. >> >> Bob Ullman >> ullman@easystreet.com

Pam, where are your Webers, from, i have Weber in my family, from Bavaria Randy Mathes ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pam" <pam@ewebexpress.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where did they come from > AIDA!! thank you so so much!! this is very very helpful - it's like > piecing > together a foreign jigsaw puzzle and not knowing how to speak the > language! > :-) . .... which of course is exactly what it is! > > I'm off to do some searching! > > ~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ > Warrenton, MO > http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com > http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com > Looking for surnames of MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), DILLON, > CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, > SCHALLOM, STEPPIG, MEES/MAES, REIS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, KRAFT, BANGERT, > DIESEL, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, RAPP, MENTEL, SHELLHORN, STALEY, WEBER, > THOELE, MITCHELL, PROBST, GOLD > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aida Kraus" <akibb1@verizon.net> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 10:24 AM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where > did > they come from > > > A half-farmer means that he had a profession besides his farm. Usually > they > were butchers, bakers, innkeepers, etc. and also had a small farm holding. > A Burgher is a freeman living in a town and that he lived in a house with > a > low number means that he was a prominent person.. Probably one of the > first > ones to settle in this town and was probably on the city council or an > elder. If the records describe him as "Burgher" or "Richter" then he was a > city or village official - check the original documents carefully! > Burgher > means that he had the right to live in a town as a freeman and not as a > serf > for the nobility or abbey. > Merklin is Merkelsgrün just a bit to the North of Karlsbad (Karlovy > Vary > on a Czech map) on the foot of the picturesque Ore Mountains. > There are 9 Stankov towns in Bohemia, you will have to let me know > which > one it is, look in the documents perhaps it gives the "Kreis" (district) > and > then you can find it on this map I presume that it is the one closest to > Deutschreichenau "Rychnuvek" or the Castle Hradec. Check this link: > http://www.mapy.cz/?st=search&fr=Stankov&pw=541&ph=428&ocx=133890048&ocy=134938624&ozm=5&omp=base > and since the person of this town married a rather wealthy farmer's > daughter > from Deutschreichenau belonging to the Manor of Hradec, the Stankov above > might be in that surrounding area and you will have to do a little > hunting. > To give you a clue, Deutschreichenau can be found as "Rychnuvek" on this > above www.mapy.cz. just North of the Austrian-Bohemian border. And this > Hradec had the German name Wittinghausen at all times with the old castle > of > Wittigstein (1220-1277) established by the German Wittigonen. Here is a > link in English that you can read of describing this historic place: > http://www.ckrumlov.cz/uk/region/histor/t_vithra.htm > Pucherdorf must also be in that area and you have to hunt for it, I cannot > find the Czech equivalent at this time, perhaps someone out there could > help > in this! Or you can use the rules for finding places with their URL links > I > posted just a few days back. See GBHS archives and you will be able to > help > yourself. > Aida > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pam" <pam@ewebexpress.com> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 7:11 AM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where > did > they come from > > >> I'm also searching for family in this era - and I have a town in Bohemia >> that I've been searching for but find little on it - and was wondering if >> the name had changed - >> >> I'm searching for surname of SCHALLOM/SCHALOM/SCHOLLUM and the town I >> have >> is Celakovy - which according to google is located in CZ and it has a big >> map but that is the only thing I can find on this town. I also have the >> following info from a fellow relative in NZ who was gracious enough to >> give >> me this info - and I'd like to find out more if possible - any info or >> direction would be so appreciated: >> >> ***** >> JOHN SCHALLOM >> >> Date of wedding: 26th Apr 1842. >> Place of wedding: Stankov - town. >> Bridegroom: SCHALOM Johann, son of CHRISTOPH SCHALOM half-farmer >> from Merklin # 35 and of Maria. >> 26 years old, [ie born around 1816] single, catholic religion. >> Bride: MARIA WEISS, legitimate daughter of GEORG WEISS burger in >> Stankov-town # 25 and of BARBARA daughter of THOMAS ENTELWEBER >> estate-owner in Deutschreichenau # 110, manor Hradec and of >> Theresia nee Huter from Pucherdorf. ?? years old, single, catholic >> >> ************** >> Can somone tell me what a HALF farmer is and what a BURGER is? I have >> not >> been able to get any really good info on my surnames in these areas so if >> anyone has an idea of where I can search, I would appreciate it. >> >> ~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ >> Warrenton, MO >> http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com >> http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com >> Looking for surnames of MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), DILLON, >> CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, >> SCHALLOM, STEPPIG, MEES/MAES, REIS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, KRAFT, BANGERT, >> DIESEL, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, RAPP, MENTEL, SHELLHORN, STALEY, WEBER, >> THOELE, MITCHELL, PROBST, GOLD >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Aida Kraus" <akibb1@verizon.net> >> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 11:57 PM >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where >> did >> they come from >> >> >> To Jean in Florida: >> They may have lived there all their lives, like all natives do..... but >> not >> all villages had churches and they only appear when the churches were >> built >> and the recording started. If they lived close to a monastery the >> records >> go as far back as when the cloister was built. Remember that everyone >> was >> a >> heathen before Christianity ...or they believed in their Germanic >> mythological gods... until they were converted. The Catholic faith was >> dominant between 600 and 1380 in middle Europe and it came to the area of >> Fulda and Wuerzburg from Ireland with St. Kilian. In 1380 the Wycliffe >> Thesis, a Protestant theorem, was taught by Jan Hus at the German >> University >> at Prague. Later Martin Luther took up the Protestant teaching. This >> lead >> to the 30 years war which ended 1648 but during which most of the >> churches >> and cloisters were burned. In Bohemia a census was taken in 1651 called >> Berni Rula because in that religious war more than 50% of the population >> succumbed and they needed to know what population was left over. This >> census is called Berni Rula and I gave "direction" to it a few days back, >> look in the archives. >> I myself have Zicklers in my family from the area of Marienbad-Tepl. >> Stift (Abby) Tepl was one of the earliest Catholic settlements in the >> Egerland by the Prämonstratenser order. It is wise to familiarize >> yourself >> with the history of the area you are researching. You can also read about >> it >> on the internet if you key in "Stift Tepl, Bohemia" or this website: >> http://www.premontre.org/subpages/propriadocumenta/periodica/sec-analecta.htm >> >> All your names appear to me to be either Egerlander or Bavarian-Bohemian >> German names and they were lived this area since time began. People did >> not >> move very far from their hometowns and most of the families lived in the >> same houses for 350 years. Each generation improved the premises and the >> houses were built of stone to last centuries. Most of the farms were >> quite >> substantial. >> Aida >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "JEAN" <JEAN74@TAMPABAY.RR.COM> >> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 10:19 PM >> Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where did >> they come from >> >> >>> Hi List, I am searching for these families HORL, HOERL, HERL, ZICKLER, >>> NOBERT, LOW,LOEW, HOLLER, HOELLER, RADL. >>> I have some of them in Bohemia by 1740 but re did they come from, they >>> just appear in the 1700s >>> can anyone out there tell me did they come from Austria, Germany I am >>> beginning to think that they dropped out of space. >>> Thanks for any help >>> Jean in Fl >>> >>> >>> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >>> list? To browse the archives, go to: >>> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >>> >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? >> Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >> > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? > Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >

Quite to the contrary of putting one to sleep, you stated the situation factually and as it was taught in our German schools. It is a fact that the Austrian Empire was - in fact - the first United States of Europe! A power like that in the middle of Europe posed great economic disadvantages to other progressive nations. Hence, the rises and falls of Empires. Aida ------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Ullman" <ullman@easystreet.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 10:31 AM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Thirty Years' War depopulation figures > It appears that I have been missing the boat on how to respond to > postings from others. So I will try this approach. Hope I have not > incovenienced anyone with my misdirected responses in the past. And I > would be glad to hear whether I am sending this message to the proper > location or not. > > I fully agree with Karen Hobbs' suggestion that in pursuing one's 17th > century ancestors it is of utmost importance to become familiar with some > of the historical background. The Thirty Years' War has been described by > some historians as "the first world war," and it brought with it all the > dislocations and stresses of any other world war. Understanding that > might lead a family historian to look about for possiblities which s/he > might not otherwise have considered. For example, some of our ancestors > undoubtedly became camp followers during the war. That became a way of > life and when the war ended many may have felt as did one individual in > Olmutz, Moravia that "I was born in war, I have no home, no country and no > friends, war is all my wealth and now whither shall I go? For some of our > ancestors this meant wandering the roads as some of the freed American > slaves did following the end of the Civil War. Eventually they had to > settle somewhere. We may never know wher! > e they were born. Or who their parents were. Or if it really matters - > many young girls were de-flowered by soldiers and outlaws during this war. > To assist those who may not know a great deal about this > recently-rediscovered war, I have spent a little time with my books and > can respond to some of Karen's comments concerning population loss during > the Thirty Years' War. Specifially, she stated that "The new settlers > were there because the 30 years war and the expulsions of protestants who > were unwilling to convert at the wars end left Bohemia / Moravia with a > population of less than 1, 000,000. Count von Lutzow (Czech historian) > says in his book "Bohemia, an Historical Sketch" that the population > before the war was 3,000,.000 and after it ended only 800.000." Now, it > is true that the Count was, for very many years, the often-quoted > authority on the subject of population loss during the Thirty Years' War. > However, modern scholars have come to question his numbers. > As early as 1961, C.V. Wedgwood stated in her classic, and extremely > readable, study The Thirty Years' War that "The incredible decrease in > population claimed for so many districts was to some extent the outcome of > temporary emigration, and a careful consideration of conditions in Germany > both before and after the war reveals the fact that society was dislocated > rather than destroyed. But the marks of that dislocation remained long > after the limbs had been re-integrated....The old legend that the > population dropped from sixteen to four million people (these figures > represent all of Germany (with the exceptions which follow in her > quotation), i.e. all of the German principalities of the time as well as > the Habsburg Crown Lands), rests on imagination: both figures are > incorrect. The German Empire, including Alsace but excluding the > Netherlands and Bohemia, probably numbered about twenty-one millions in > 1618, and rather less than thirteen and a half millions in 1648. Ce! > rtain authorities believe that the loss was less, but the figures, which > have been confused over the generations by propaganda of different kinds, > are extremely difficult to establish with any certainty." > In his book, serf, seigneur, and sovereign, William E. Wright notes, as > Karen also has said, that "During the war many peasants had taken flight > before marauding armies, leaving their land and forsaking their rights to > it....To the already generous grants from Ferdinand II, his creatures > added even more by seizure of untended, previously serf-held > acreage....Fugitive serfs and discharged soldiers, torn from their social > moorings and lacking employment, roamed the land....Because of the general > feeling of insecurity in the kingdom and the conduct of some of the > fugitives, the Bohemian serf was considered a lawless, or potentially > lawless, churl who should be closely bound to the land and strictly > controlled by the lord of the area.... In other words, many people were > displaced (rather than killed) during the war, and while some certainly > returned to their villages after the war, others took to roaming the > countryside, often as outlaws (my own ancestor is shown in The Tax! > Rolls of 1654 as a schutz [shooter, guard, protector] which means his job > was to protect against such individuals) leading the authorities to pass > laws confining the serf's movement and tying him tightly to the land - > whether it was the land he had been on at the start of the war or not. > In his more recent (1984) study of the war (The Thirty Years' War) > Geoffrey Parker cites the example of Linden, a village near Rothenburg, > which "in 1618...had a total of nine taxable peasant households, plus four > landless peasants....By 1641...the village was uninhabited--and it > remained so for the rest of the war. But Linden did not become a > permanent ghost village. In the decades following the war, settlers > returned, and by 1690 the village had eleven peasant holdings--bringing > it, in short, back to its pre-war size." Parker does not relate, or > probably know, where the new settlers came from. Were they new > inhabitants or former villagers returning to their homes? Or a > combination? He does note, however, that "Historians can pinpoint > hundreds of depopulated villages and reduced cities -- along with hundreds > of towns and villages which survived the war almost intact." He goes on > to explain that "There is no doubt, however, that central Europe did > experience a gen! > eration of substantial demographic decline. The exact causes of the > population loss cannot always be determined, but one thing is certain: > deaths due to military action represented only a minor element in the > total picture (study their weapons: are you kidding me? How could they > hit anything?!). War-related food shortages and outbreaks of epidemic > disease were much greater killers. The most spectacular episodes of > mortality were due to the bubonic plague, which broke out in many parts of > central Europe during the war....Many epidemic diseases were spread by the > movement of infected soldiers or civilians (a well-known cry concerning > the army of one general in the war was "God help those where Mansfield > comes!"), but the plague was not among them. For bubonic plague is > actually a disease of rats, transmitted to humans beings by fleas...the > old notion that infected rats and fleas travelled in army baggage is now > discounted by demographers. In addition, plague epidemics ! > were of relatively short duration in any one place, and were often > followed by a year or two of rapid demographic revovery. In fact the > long-term population losses associated with the war were generally due to > less spectacular but more persistent diseases spread by human > contact --typhus, influenza, dysentery and other illnesses which recurred, > year after year, in communities whose inhabitants were already weakened by > war-induced malnutrition and stress." > So, as with most things, the facts are not as straight-forward as we > would like for them to be. Consider yourself blessed if you can push your > family tree back beyond the Thirty Years' War. So far, I cannot. Many > parish records were lost when churches were burned (by both sides) and > this presents a major challenge for genealogical research. Beyond the > language differences, the general chaos which occured during the war and > in the period immediately afterwards is another reason for the confusion > over misspellings of names in the Tax List of 1654. Living in the > Habsburg Lands were people from many places: Scots, Italians, Irish, > English, Austrians, Czechs, Germans, German-Bohemians, Hungarians, etc., > etc. The census takers were not always equipped to understand the names > being spoken by these various nationalities. This was the Emperor's > attempt to find out who his subjects were, mainly - but not only - for tax > purposes. A generation had passed and things were no ! > longer as they had been in 1618. > > Hope I haven't put everyone to sleep. > > Bob Ullman > ullman@easystreet.com > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? > Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >

AIDA!! thank you so so much!! this is very very helpful - it's like piecing together a foreign jigsaw puzzle and not knowing how to speak the language! :-) . .... which of course is exactly what it is! I'm off to do some searching! ~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ Warrenton, MO http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com Looking for surnames of MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), DILLON, CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, SCHALLOM, STEPPIG, MEES/MAES, REIS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, KRAFT, BANGERT, DIESEL, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, RAPP, MENTEL, SHELLHORN, STALEY, WEBER, THOELE, MITCHELL, PROBST, GOLD ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aida Kraus" <akibb1@verizon.net> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 10:24 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where did they come from A half-farmer means that he had a profession besides his farm. Usually they were butchers, bakers, innkeepers, etc. and also had a small farm holding. A Burgher is a freeman living in a town and that he lived in a house with a low number means that he was a prominent person.. Probably one of the first ones to settle in this town and was probably on the city council or an elder. If the records describe him as "Burgher" or "Richter" then he was a city or village official - check the original documents carefully! Burgher means that he had the right to live in a town as a freeman and not as a serf for the nobility or abbey. Merklin is Merkelsgrün just a bit to the North of Karlsbad (Karlovy Vary on a Czech map) on the foot of the picturesque Ore Mountains. There are 9 Stankov towns in Bohemia, you will have to let me know which one it is, look in the documents perhaps it gives the "Kreis" (district) and then you can find it on this map I presume that it is the one closest to Deutschreichenau "Rychnuvek" or the Castle Hradec. Check this link: http://www.mapy.cz/?st=search&fr=Stankov&pw=541&ph=428&ocx=133890048&ocy=134938624&ozm=5&omp=base and since the person of this town married a rather wealthy farmer's daughter from Deutschreichenau belonging to the Manor of Hradec, the Stankov above might be in that surrounding area and you will have to do a little hunting. To give you a clue, Deutschreichenau can be found as "Rychnuvek" on this above www.mapy.cz. just North of the Austrian-Bohemian border. And this Hradec had the German name Wittinghausen at all times with the old castle of Wittigstein (1220-1277) established by the German Wittigonen. Here is a link in English that you can read of describing this historic place: http://www.ckrumlov.cz/uk/region/histor/t_vithra.htm Pucherdorf must also be in that area and you have to hunt for it, I cannot find the Czech equivalent at this time, perhaps someone out there could help in this! Or you can use the rules for finding places with their URL links I posted just a few days back. See GBHS archives and you will be able to help yourself. Aida ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pam" <pam@ewebexpress.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 7:11 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where did they come from > I'm also searching for family in this era - and I have a town in Bohemia > that I've been searching for but find little on it - and was wondering if > the name had changed - > > I'm searching for surname of SCHALLOM/SCHALOM/SCHOLLUM and the town I have > is Celakovy - which according to google is located in CZ and it has a big > map but that is the only thing I can find on this town. I also have the > following info from a fellow relative in NZ who was gracious enough to > give > me this info - and I'd like to find out more if possible - any info or > direction would be so appreciated: > > ***** > JOHN SCHALLOM > > Date of wedding: 26th Apr 1842. > Place of wedding: Stankov - town. > Bridegroom: SCHALOM Johann, son of CHRISTOPH SCHALOM half-farmer > from Merklin # 35 and of Maria. > 26 years old, [ie born around 1816] single, catholic religion. > Bride: MARIA WEISS, legitimate daughter of GEORG WEISS burger in > Stankov-town # 25 and of BARBARA daughter of THOMAS ENTELWEBER > estate-owner in Deutschreichenau # 110, manor Hradec and of > Theresia nee Huter from Pucherdorf. ?? years old, single, catholic > > ************** > Can somone tell me what a HALF farmer is and what a BURGER is? I have not > been able to get any really good info on my surnames in these areas so if > anyone has an idea of where I can search, I would appreciate it. > > ~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ > Warrenton, MO > http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com > http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com > Looking for surnames of MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), DILLON, > CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, > SCHALLOM, STEPPIG, MEES/MAES, REIS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, KRAFT, BANGERT, > DIESEL, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, RAPP, MENTEL, SHELLHORN, STALEY, WEBER, > THOELE, MITCHELL, PROBST, GOLD > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aida Kraus" <akibb1@verizon.net> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 11:57 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where > did > they come from > > > To Jean in Florida: > They may have lived there all their lives, like all natives do..... but > not > all villages had churches and they only appear when the churches were > built > and the recording started. If they lived close to a monastery the records > go as far back as when the cloister was built. Remember that everyone was > a > heathen before Christianity ...or they believed in their Germanic > mythological gods... until they were converted. The Catholic faith was > dominant between 600 and 1380 in middle Europe and it came to the area of > Fulda and Wuerzburg from Ireland with St. Kilian. In 1380 the Wycliffe > Thesis, a Protestant theorem, was taught by Jan Hus at the German > University > at Prague. Later Martin Luther took up the Protestant teaching. This > lead > to the 30 years war which ended 1648 but during which most of the churches > and cloisters were burned. In Bohemia a census was taken in 1651 called > Berni Rula because in that religious war more than 50% of the population > succumbed and they needed to know what population was left over. This > census is called Berni Rula and I gave "direction" to it a few days back, > look in the archives. > I myself have Zicklers in my family from the area of Marienbad-Tepl. > Stift (Abby) Tepl was one of the earliest Catholic settlements in the > Egerland by the Prämonstratenser order. It is wise to familiarize yourself > with the history of the area you are researching. You can also read about > it > on the internet if you key in "Stift Tepl, Bohemia" or this website: > http://www.premontre.org/subpages/propriadocumenta/periodica/sec-analecta.htm > > All your names appear to me to be either Egerlander or Bavarian-Bohemian > German names and they were lived this area since time began. People did > not > move very far from their hometowns and most of the families lived in the > same houses for 350 years. Each generation improved the premises and the > houses were built of stone to last centuries. Most of the farms were > quite > substantial. > Aida > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "JEAN" <JEAN74@TAMPABAY.RR.COM> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 10:19 PM > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where did > they come from > > >> Hi List, I am searching for these families HORL, HOERL, HERL, ZICKLER, >> NOBERT, LOW,LOEW, HOLLER, HOELLER, RADL. >> I have some of them in Bohemia by 1740 but re did they come from, they >> just appear in the 1700s >> can anyone out there tell me did they come from Austria, Germany I am >> beginning to think that they dropped out of space. >> Thanks for any help >> Jean in Fl >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >> list? To browse the archives, go to: >> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >> > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? > Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/