In a message dated 5/11/2006 10:14:14 PM Mountain Standard Time, Scrig@aol.com writes: <<should I look at Austria and Germany and more or less ignore the others such as Romania?<< The first answer to your question is to beef up your knowledge. You need an historical atlas of Europe that shows border changes and empires over time. The best ones are those that were made before World War I. There is a paperback one you can buy for less than $10 at Amazon or Alibris.com : The Palgrave Concise Historical Atlas of Eastern Europe : Revised and Updated (Paperback) Every genealogist should have an historical atlas at home!!! You may also find maps of the Austro-Hungarian empire and later (1868- 1918) Austro-Hungarian dual monarchy just by searching the Internet for the years of interest. Some of the best maps will be in German so use German words to find them. Alte karten Oesterreich; Osterreich-Ungarn karten, etc. Or try: historical atlas, Eastern Europe historical atlas, Romania if you think you have to have English. There is a military recruiting map showing all the Austrian lands around 1898 at: http://www.kuk-wehrmacht.de/regiment/ It shows all the Austrian lands under the names they had in 1898. Of course it is up to you to compare that to a post 1918 map of Eastern Europe to see which of the old Austro-Hungarian territories Romania absorbed. I pointed out one hit for Althutten in Bukowina because it may have had a glassworks if the name meant anything. Many Germans from Bohemia went there to resettle during the late 18th and early 19th C.. The resettlement records (Ansiederakten) may have your surnames in old Bohemia and could lead you to the place your Swedish settlers originated even though they are not included in those card files. They could still have come from the same glassmaking area in Bohemia as the people who settled Althutten or other glassworks established in Bukowina or Galicia during that period. It is a long shot but easy to do and could help. Karen

In a message dated 5/12/2006 4:20:58 PM Mountain Standard Time, lhakel@earthlink.net writes: Is there a way to access the Austrian Hungarian Empire military records for mid-1800's for a Moravia ancestor. My researcher found in the archives his marriage in 1862 and it indicated he was a "Imperial and Royal veteran soldier". Thanks Larry He may have fought in the war in Italy in 1859. It was a very bloody war (look up Battle of Solferino) and led to the formation of the International Red Cross and the Geneva Convention. Some regiments from Bohemia lost 50% of their men to wounds and battlefield deaths. Some of the wounded may have been discharged early. If your ancestor was much under 28 years old at marriage that may be the case for him. Do you know in which district of Moravia he was born? Typical soldiers were inducted between age 20 and 21. Those inducted before 1860 served 8 years active duty. In 1860 3 years of reserve duty was added to the service obligation. Active duty men could not marry but reservists could. in 1862 there were 80 regiments but if he was inducted before 1860 he may have been serving while there were on 63 regiments. In 1860 some new regiments were made up of battalions from old ones as well as from new recruits. That could mean that he has a record under the regiment into which he was first inducted and another if he was transferred to a new regiment in 1860. To find the numbers of Moravian regiments 1852-1860 you should look at von Wredes history of the k..k. Infanterie on film at the LDS. Use von Wrede in a Keyword or Author search to find it. Then you have to page through it and find the regiment that was recruited in the large city closest to his residence shown on the marriage record. That will be a place name at the END of a sentence about 4th paragraph down in the title information for each regiment. The sentence will alson contain the word Erganzung or Ergantst sich. The look down paragraph by paragraph to see if it says anything about 1860. If it does it may say that Battalions numbers XX and XX were sent for the formation of new regiment XX during that year. That tells you the 2nd regiment to search in case he was in one of those battalions. There is also a chance you will find his record in the film: Grundbuchblatter Diverse --- for a large number of records for many regiments from Bohemia and Moravia during his period of service. I think I would look there first and if I found nothing then I would get the von Wrede. Karen

I have to apologize but my mailbox became corrupted. There is no virus, so don't worry, it was a technical problem. Someone, I believe it was Jean, asked what a lead document was. This is the first document you can find that will lead you to another, and hopefully to a certified document, like a birth, marriage, death certificate, a shiplist, a military record or just an obit. That obit would be your first lead document leading you to another possibly certified document. Once you have found a deed, a title, a passport, even a letter, it could be your first step to a certified lead-document from where you can trace back. It is wiser to use these documents than taking family legends for granted; often these stories cannot stand up to the facts. But here is a way to separate fact from fiction: the title given a person on a document, like weaver, farmer, burgher, houseowner can be taken as fact. The house number listed on documents does not necessarily entail ownership, unless "Hausbesitzer" (meaning house owner) is written on the document. Houses in Europe were built very subst! antially, mostly of stones or bricks and always with a stone foundation in the basement, it had several floors, because it was cheaper to build high instead of wide because of the smaller acreages available. Farms consisted of several buildings, and most of them were built in a square with a drive-through gate fronting the road of the village. There are whole villages built like this, one farm next to the other. Behind that wide and usually closed drive through gate there were other buildings, like stables, barns, workshops, living quarters, kitchen gardens and a "drive through barn" usually placed on the back side of the property (American cities had similar setups, like garages towards an alley), but their large barns provided a thoroughfare and were leading to the fields that surrounded the village. Most farms were quite substantial, but not only the owner was living there, but also family members and farms hands or milk maids, etc. We really cannot call these people! "servants" because it was not uncommon that such families intermarried with the owner family, and most of them remained with the owners for several generations. So, be sure to check for the title of the individual person of your family that listed on a document. Karen has forwarded an URL to a wonderful glossary giving all professions with an English translation. If the name lists a profession and the added word "Hausbesitzer" (houseowner) would then indicate that house No. 000 was their building, farm, house, manor, etc. Aida

Reference is given below. I had a computer problem today and am just rereading some of the mail I missed and I don't know which ones of my mail reached or did not reach the List. Yes, there were very good postroads in 1700 in Bohemia. Particularly from Salzburg, Passau, Regensburg to Prag called the "Goldener Steig" a tollroad. It was built on the ancient Amber trade route that was known to the Celts and the Romans. Use these key words for further search of info in your URL. Aida : "JEAN" < JEAN74@TAMPABAY.RR.COM> Subject: Zickler Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 15:17:45 -0500 Hello Aida: Thanks for the information, but my ips removed the attachment, but not to worry did check the maps and its seem more off a distance than they could travel in the 1700s unless there was a post road with stops. Was there such a road? My Grandfather was born in house# 15. which came into the family from mother , his ggrandmother was a Zickler and I feel that the house #15, originally belong to the Zicklers. Is there any way of finding this out, I have researcher who looking for things for me, I will ask him to see what he can find. Jean in Fl

Is there a way to access the Austrian Hungarian Empire military records for mid-1800's for a Moravia ancestor. My researcher found in the archives his marriage in 1862 and it indicated he was a "Imperial and Royal veteran soldier". Thanks Larry

Hi, Becky ... Chiming in because you've written down one of the names in my research searching for Cleveland, Ohio family connections to the BENESCH line. My BENESCH "branch" married into the line of WEIL, here in Cleveland, (WEIL is the more important to me,) so if I can trace the BENESCH back to Europe, maybe I'll find more on our WEIL and WEISKOPH ancestors. So, as any hints or "side-bars" on these family names comes up, I hope you'll include them in, on, or off-list mailings ... to my attention. The 1883 year mention "picked up my ears" too as this is close to the years our family came here (Cleveland)... 1870's to 1881. Like so many others, I "cruise" the postings just looking for familiar names to appear in hopes of more information or leads.. Jo Davis PS: You are SO right about Karen and Aida!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: <Becky.Champion@equifax.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 9:35 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing search for family... << ...Yes - I agree with Prussia for Anton's notation. Since he came in 1883 and Johanna came so much later, I didn't know if perhaps her notation of Klattau was more recent. Also, I have one great-uncle still living, and he thinks he remembers them changing the Benes surname from Benesch or Benesh - so the German might not be too far-fetched. Do you know if the surname Pinker was very common in that region? They would be the ones I would like to track down the most. The only reason I'm interested in Benes/Benesch is that perhaps they came from the same area. But Benes/Benesch is not blood related to me. ...>> > I'd also like to add my thanks to you and Karen - between the two of you, > I > learn so much, and am totally fascinated! > > Becky > > > > > "Aida Kraus" > <akibb1@verizon.n > et> To > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com > 05/10/2006 06:28 cc > PM > Subject > Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing > Please respond to search for family... > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L > @rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > Becky: > What you have been typing as PreuBen is Preußen the ß is a German double > ss > > or "sharp S", so.... they were from Prussia! > Since Silesia was also a part of Austria Hungary but was lost to Prussia > in > the Austrian Prussian war, and since this area is bordering on what is now > the Czech Republic, it could well be that they are from that part. (Of > course the Czech Republic or Czechoslovakia did not exist as yet in March > of > 1892, so there would be no reference to it on that manifest, because that > country did not yet exist.) So, when they left they were either from > Prussia, Austria, Galicia or Poland. But it could very well be that they > came from an area which later became part of the newly formed > Czechoslovakia in 1919, and that was long after they had left there. > The surname Benes, written as such or with an s at the end, would > indicate that they were of Czech ethnicity, while when their name is > spelled > with sch at the end, like Benesch, they were most likely a German family. > Since this name is as common in the Czech Republic (as Smith is here in > America) you will have a hard time to find the correct location. Your clue > is the recording "Preussen". So it is in the general area I listed > before. > Actually, you can only go by whatever lead documents or letters you can > find, or by remembering a village name, or perhaps you could go back to > the > > passenger list (not upon their arrival) but from where they sailed, > because > > sometimes they listed the places of origin in the Bremen shipslists. The > Bremen shiplists should have an alphabetical index. like the Ellis Island > register. Look for Benes and Benesch and see if someone has Preussen > (Prussia) and the same first names listged on it, and then, perhaps, you > may > be able to narrow it down. I certainly hope so. Good luck! > Aida > ------------------------------ > ----- Original Message SNIPPET ----- > From: <Becky.Champion@equifax.com> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 7:31 AM > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing search for family... > >> Hello, all! I am renewing a search for my genealogy block in the CR. My >> G-G-Grandmother, Johanna Pinker, came over in March of 1892 (she was 29), >> with her 6 year old son, Gordian (the passenger manifest has him listed > as >> Kordian). The manifest lists their origination as Klattau. She would > never >> speak of where she came from, nor who sired Gordian. Johanna's brother, >> Anton (Tony) came over in June of 1883, with an place of origin listed as >> PreuBen. The name below him on the manifest shows Catherine Benes, whom > he >> married. Catherine's brother, Josef, married Johanna after she came over >> in >> 1892. Josef adopted Gordian, who then became Gordian Benes. >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >> list? To search the archives, go to: >> >

I just went to that website on the Ellbogen Dostrict http://home.xnet.com/~ugeiser/Genealogy/Bohemia/contents.html and noticed that in the Table of Contents they list an Estate named Saar, or Zdiar, spelled in Czech. The individual who was looking for Bohemians need not investigate the Saarland! >From: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-D-request@rootsweb.com >Date: Fri May 12 17:06:47 CDT 2006 >To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-D@rootsweb.com >Subject: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-D Digest V06 #113 >GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-D Digest Volume 06 : Issue 113 > >Today's Topics: > #1 Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Grossbach an ["Debra Lyding" <dlyding@qwest.net>] > #2 Manorial records and J G Sommer [KarenHob@aol.com] > #3 Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Bremen Ships [KarenHob@aol.com] > #4 Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Manorial rec ["Linda Therkelsen" <lindatherkela@] > #5 Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Bremen Ships [Becky.Champion@equifax.com] > #6 Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing sea [KarenHob@aol.com] > #7 Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Schramm and [KarenHob@aol.com] > #8 Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Schramm and ["Pam" <pam@ewebexpress.com>] > #9 Zickler ["JEAN" <JEAN74@TAMPABAY.RR.COM>] > #10 Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Re: GERMAN-B [KarenHob@aol.com] > #11 Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Bremen Ships [KarenHob@aol.com] > #12 Random Acts of Genealogical Kindne [KarenHob@aol.com] > #13 Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Schramm and ["Pam" <pam@ewebexpress.com>] > #14 Germans to America [KarenHob@aol.com] > #15 Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing sea [KarenHob@aol.com] > >Administrivia: >To unsubscribe from GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-D, send a message to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-D-request@rootsweb.com > >that contains in the body of the message the command > > unsubscribe > >and no other text. No subject line is necessary, but if your software >requires one, just use unsubscribe in the subject, too. > >______________________________ > >Hello Karen, Could you be more specific regarding the name of the book(s) >"Germans to America"? Do you have an author name? I would like to see if >my library has it. Do you think a mormon family history center would have a >copy of this book? Thanks, Debra > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <KarenHob@aol.com> >To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 9:29 AM >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Grossbach and Kautz families > > >> In a message dated 5/10/2006 7:03:32 AM Mountain Standard Time, >> kkautz@clear.lakes.com writes: >> I have been researching my parents surnames in Europe.....Could anyone >> help >> me out with these names? Thank you anyone for some help. Karen Kautz >> This is another too-general request for help. >> >> Have you looked at Germans to America books in US libraries to find their >> name on a ships list with a possible birthplace? >> >> Have you done any of the other things I ask about in my prior Email? >> >> You do not say if they were German or Austrian or from Bohemia. >> >> If they were "Germany Germans" this is not the right list for help. >> You need one that is for "German genealogy" not for Germans specifically >> from Bohemia if they were not born in Bohemia. >> >> Karen >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >> list? To browse the archives, go to: >> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >> >> >> > >______________________________ > >In a message dated 5/10/2006 10:12:02 AM Mountain Standard Time, >lindatherkela@msn.com writes: >As Aida points out, some of them may have been there quite a long time in the >same house -- but the church records do not begin until usually the 1700s, >perhaps a very few in late 1600s. >Don't forget about tax records that go back to 1654 for people who had enough >assets to pay taxes at that time. Other tax surveys for the 17th and 18th >century are available. > >There are also various census -- mostly for conscription prior to 1850 or so, >so they will only have male names. > > > >However, in some areas, there are land records that exist. They would have >been kept by the local landowners (the lords or monasteries) -- they needed to >keep track of who was paying the rent, robot, other taxes, etc. They do show >the passing of a house from father to son, and also some of the other payments >to the siblings from the child who got the house and farm, sometimes >provisions to the widow, and even some remarriages; some of them act as court records. > So it is possible to track back some of the lines farther. This will not >help you if one of the families is "landless," and noninheriting children are >not always mentioned. >The records Linda refers to are generally called "Manorial Records" by the >LDS and archivists. They are often filed under the name of the noble family >that owned the dominion on which given peasants lived. > >There are a few on film at the LDS....very few. > >Professional researchers can usually find out about the ownership for you and >tell you what might be available before they visit an archive on your behalf. >Then you can choose what you want researched -- land transfers, marriage >contracts, last wills and testaments or court (justice) proceedings. > >To learn the names of the noble lords that owned an ancestral town or village >use J.G. Sommer's books: Das Konigreich Boehmen. The history of >ownership is on the first pages under the title / chapter heading for each Herrschaft >or Dominion. Even if you cannot read German you may be able to pick out the >names of the nobles and the years associated with them. In any case you >should copy ALL of the pages associated with an ancestral dominion and get the >relevant ones translated. > >I would like to request that anyone who has had Sommer pages translated >please make the translations available by putting them up on the Internet or >telling the list what you have to share with interested people. > >There is one website at which the entire Elbogen Kreis book by Sommer is to >be translated. The site currently has 383 pages on the Internet. (many thanks >to Urs Geiser for this work). >http://home.xnet.com/~ugeiser/Genealogy/Bohemia/contents.html > > >Karen > >______________________________ > >In a message dated 5/11/2006 7:41:38 AM Mountain Standard Time, >gregory@giantcomm.net writes: >http://feefhs.org/FRL/spl/bremenmf.html Is this the Bremen Ships List you >are referring to? > >Kathy >I have never looked at that site. > >We have access to the indexed ships lists at ProQuest / Heritage Quest web >site through connection to our on line public library catalog. > >That is the ships list we use for searches. You just have to type in the >surname and it finds all the possibillities with years. You choose the pages >you want o view in the original. > >A lot of US libraries have this free service on line. You can also access it >through your local LDS FHC at the Ancestry.com website to which they >subscribe. That site is harder to use than ProQuest but it is better than nothing. > >Published ships lists in hard copy are available in public libraries as >Germans to America. > >Every so often a new index of all the surnames previously covered is >published to help find the names you might want. > >For German-Bohemians there are many names in the books by >Leo Baca -- Czechs to America. > >Use both resources when looking for German Bohemian ancestors arrival in the >U.S. > >Karen > >Karen > >______________________________ > >I don't have them translated, but do have JPGs of pages 243-266 of Sommer's Budweiser Kreis (which includes Krummau) made for me by someone in Germany with access to a book. I suppose I could ask him if he would mind if I uploaded them to the GBHS site or something. They are not translated and not indexed, however -- people should be aware they are in old German Gothic type. >Linda T. >BTW, I do get matches on some of the 1654 tax records with my names -- but had to do the "in between" to the start of church records with land records. > >----- Original Message ----- > From: KarenHob@aol.com<mailto:KarenHob@aol.com> > To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com<mailto:GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 12:27 PM > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Manorial records and J G Sommer > > > In a message dated 5/10/2006 10:12:02 AM Mountain Standard Time, > lindatherkela@msn.com<mailto:lindatherkela@msn.com> writes: > As Aida points out, some of them may have been there quite a long time in the > same house -- but the church records do not begin until usually the 1700s, > perhaps a very few in late 1600s. > Don't forget about tax records that go back to 1654 for people who had enough > assets to pay taxes at that time. Other tax surveys for the 17th and 18th > century are available. > > There are also various census -- mostly for conscription prior to 1850 or so, > so they will only have male names. > > > > However, in some areas, there are land records that exist. They would have > been kept by the local landowners (the lords or monasteries) -- they needed to > keep track of who was paying the rent, robot, other taxes, etc. They do show > the passing of a house from father to son, and also some of the other payments > to the siblings from the child who got the house and farm, sometimes > provisions to the widow, and even some remarriages; some of them act as court records. > So it is possible to track back some of the lines farther. This will not > help you if one of the families is "landless," and noninheriting children are > not always mentioned. > The records Linda refers to are generally called "Manorial Records" by the > LDS and archivists. They are often filed under the name of the noble family > that owned the dominion on which given peasants lived. > > There are a few on film at the LDS....very few. > > Professional researchers can usually find out about the ownership for you and > tell you what might be available before they visit an archive on your behalf. > Then you can choose what you want researched -- land transfers, marriage > contracts, last wills and testaments or court (justice) proceedings. > > To learn the names of the noble lords that owned an ancestral town or village > use J.G. Sommer's books: Das Konigreich Boehmen. The history of > ownership is on the first pages under the title / chapter heading for each Herrschaft > or Dominion. Even if you cannot read German you may be able to pick out the > names of the nobles and the years associated with them. In any case you > should copy ALL of the pages associated with an ancestral dominion and get the > relevant ones translated. > > I would like to request that anyone who has had Sommer pages translated > please make the translations available by putting them up on the Internet or > telling the list what you have to share with interested people. > > There is one website at which the entire Elbogen Kreis book by Sommer is to > be translated. The site currently has 383 pages on the Internet. (many thanks > to Urs Geiser for this work). > http://home.xnet.com/~ugeiser/Genealogy/Bohemia/contents.html<http://homexnet.com/~ugeiser/Genealogy/Bohemia/contents.html> > > > Karen > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/<http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/> > >______________________________ > >My problem is that my ancestor sailed in 1892. Everything I've seen (in >English) so far, only goes back to 1904... > > > > > KarenHob@aol.com > > 05/12/2006 01:49 To > PM GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com > cc > > Please respond to Subject > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Bremen Ships > @rootsweb.com List > > > > > > > > > > >In a message dated 5/11/2006 7:41:38 AM Mountain Standard Time, >gregory@giantcomm.net writes: >http://feefhs.org/FRL/spl/bremenmf.html Is this the Bremen Ships List you >are referring to? > >Kathy >I have never looked at that site. > >We have access to the indexed ships lists at ProQuest / Heritage Quest web >site through connection to our on line public library catalog. > >That is the ships list we use for searches. You just have to type in the > >surname and it finds all the possibillities with years. You choose the >pages >you want o view in the original. > >A lot of US libraries have this free service on line. You can also access >it >through your local LDS FHC at the Ancestry.com website to which they >subscribe. That site is harder to use than ProQuest but it is better >than nothing. > >Published ships lists in hard copy are available in public libraries as >Germans to America. > >Every so often a new index of all the surnames previously covered is >published to help find the names you might want. > >For German-Bohemians there are many names in the books by >Leo Baca -- Czechs to America. > >Use both resources when looking for German Bohemian ancestors arrival in >the >U.S. > >Karen > >Karen > > >==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! >http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > > > > >This message contains information from Equifax Inc. which may be >confidential and privileged. If you are not an intended recipient, please >refrain from any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this >information and note that such actions are prohibited. If you have >received this transmission in error, please notify by e-mail >postmaster@equifax.com. > >______________________________ > >In a message dated 5/11/2006 8:03:06 AM Mountain Standard Time, >sando1@cox.net writes: > stevemorse.org > >I had forgotten about that URL -- thanks for the reminder!! > >If you cannot find what you want at ProQuest/Heritage Quest, with the index >there you can visit Steve Morse's website. > >Just type in the approximate times during which you believe an ancestor may >have sailed and then click on search. You will get a list of ships arriving >at the port you chose during that time. Each has a aport of departure listed >that may help you choose which ones to view. > >In my case I know that my great grandfather was mustered out of the army in >the last part of 1867 from his military record. I also know he purchased >land in MN on May 11, 1869 (land register records at MN Historical Society). > >I would guess that he did not sail until after the Christmas holidays and >before Lent / Easter. Tickets were cheapest during winter weather (terrible >time to cross). > >I also know from family lore that he most likely sailed from LeHavre in >France because he did not have a passport. The French didn't care if Germans had >travel documents so he took virtually no risk by departing from that port. > >Antwerp was another "safe" port for undocumented Germans. > >Many undocumented German men were fleeing the draft, were deserters, or were >veterans still in the reserves who could not get a passport. Some may have >been fleeing the police. > >At Steve Morses site I can look at the list of results for ships departing >from Le Havre durihng the time I feel is right and use the referenced rolls of >film at the LDS for ships lists to study. > >For arrivals during the 19th C. you have to check all the possible ports >which can make a pretty long list of fims to study unless you have a nice "sorter" >like LeHavre or Antwerp as a point of departure. > >Castle Garden >Baltimore >Philadelphia >Great Lakes ports > >were all used by German-Bohemians. Many who went to Wisconsin used the >Great Lakes routes. Some who came after 1872 or so when the RR went into MN >went to Baltimore. > >G-Bs rarely landed at southern ports if they intended to settle in WI or MN. >Some may have traveled up the Mississippi from New Orleans. Those who went >to Texas ports genereally settled in Texas. > >Karen > >______________________________ > >In a message dated 5/12/2006 10:14:55 AM Mountain Standard Time, >LKrupnak@erols.com writes: >> I knew from my own research that the Catholic church since its >> conception in the 3rd century under Constantine forcibly (thru >> economic or religious) would have many subjugated countries convert >> to RCC or suffer the consequences. > >Read up on Sts. Cyril and Methodius for inhformation about the earliest >conversion of the Slavs of Moravia and early Bohemia. > >The introduction of Roman Catholicism into Bohemia came with German settlers >(who came with Monastic communities invited to develop the land and increase >tax revenues) and with the conversion of some Bohemian rulers. > >A Catholic was not always on the throne during early history. >Assassinations and other intrigues changed that image fairly often at first. So did the >welcome that German settlers met. There were times when the Czech nobility >became concerned about the economic power of the Germans and tried to expel them >(they managed to reduce the German population around Iglau in in parts of the >Schonhegst area by quite a bit),. But the consequences always meant a loss >of tax revenue so they ended up asking more Germans to settle again. > >For some reason the Czechs never picked up on the German techniques except in >some of the cities. They preferred to stick with their own farming methods >which barely produced enough for subsistence. > >The conversions of rulers may have been because these men really were >believers but some may have been for political expedience. The Holy Roman Emperor >would be most inclined to assist Catholics in their efforts to repel pagans >from the East (Avars, Huns) during the early christian times. > >The general nobility may have also decided to become Catholic in the Slavic >church established by Cyril and Methodius, and eventually became Roman Catholic >when the old Slavic church ceased to exist when the last few Slavic >monasteries closed and were taken over by Benedictines of Premonstratenians. > >Many nobelmen required thier serfs / subjects to practice their religion of >choice. They probably thought of religion as in a pragmatic way -- helping >to keep tabs on their serfs and to control their activities somewhat. > >Roman Catholicism in Bohemia was more of a conquest by tax revenue >requirements than any other "force". > >Karen > >______________________________ > >well, not actually that he founded it...but that he was so instrumental in >it's birthpangs.... and in the seperation of the early church from its >Jewish roots. But then, this topic is probably best taken off list :-) > >Pam > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@erols.com> >To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 11:19 AM >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Schramm and Lexicon > > >Hello Pam, > >You wrote in part: > >> I knew from my own research that the Catholic church since its >> conception in the 3rd century under Constantine forcibly (thru >> economic or religious) would have many subjugated countries convert >> to RCC or suffer the consequences. > >******* > > It's not true that Emperor Constantine founded the RCC (Roman >Catholic Church): > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I_(emperor) > >http://gbgm-umc.org/UMW/Bible/ce.stm > >http://www.reformation.org/council_of_chalcedon.html > >________ > >Lavrentiy Krupniak > > . > > >==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the list? >To search the archives, go to: >http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN > >______________________________ > >Hello Aida: Thanks for the information, but my ips removed the attachment, but not to worry did check the maps and its seem more off a distance than they could travel in the 1700s unless there was a post road with stops. Was there such a road? My Grandfather was born in house# 15. which came into the family from mother , his ggrandmother was a Zickler and I feel that the house #15, originally belong to the Zicklers. Is there any way of finding this out, I have researcher who looking for things for me, I will ask him to see what he can find. >Jean in Fl > >______________________________ > >Dan, > >I don't recall what you are looking for but you can get mobility databases >at: > >http://www.worldroots.com/ > > >If you are having trouble on your ISP you should switch to another browser. > >Sometimes I can only get web error messages on AOL but can open >the same URLs just fine on Foxfire or Netscape. > >There are also a few websites out there that really require Internet Explorer >to open properly. > >Karen > >______________________________ > >In a message dated 5/12/2006 12:11:29 PM Mountain Standard Time, >Becky.Champion@equifax.com writes: >My problem is that my ancestor sailed in 1892. Everything I've seen (in >English) so far, only goes back to 1904... >Why does it have to be in English?? > >Surnames can be read in any language. > >Karen > >______________________________ > >There is a very good website for volunteers who do lookups around the US. > >See: http://www.raogk.org/faq-requesters.htm > >You have to read all the way through the FAQ before you get to the link to >find a volunteer. > >The FAQ contains a lot of information about this service and what you will be >expected to pay if your volunteer faces any expense in doing your lookup. > >Explore the site thoroughly, using whatever place names that interest you >just to see what you find. Check out the other links that show up at the >bottom of the various web pages explored. > >Karen > >______________________________ > >and a good 'force' it was :-) > >thanks again Karen for the excellent info! > >~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ >Warrenton, MO >http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com >http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com >Looking for surnames of MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), DILLON, CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, >SCHALLOM, STEPPIG, MEES/MAES, REIS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, KRAFT, BANGERT, >DIESEL, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, RAPP, MENTEL, SCHELLHORN, STALEY, WEBER, >THOELE, MITCHELL, PROBST, GOLD > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <KarenHob@aol.com> >To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 1:57 PM >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Schramm and Lexicon > > >In a message dated 5/12/2006 10:14:55 AM Mountain Standard Time, >LKrupnak@erols.com writes: >> I knew from my own research that the Catholic church since its >> conception in the 3rd century under Constantine forcibly (thru >> economic or religious) would have many subjugated countries convert >> to RCC or suffer the consequences. > >Read up on Sts. Cyril and Methodius for inhformation about the earliest >conversion of the Slavs of Moravia and early Bohemia. > >The introduction of Roman Catholicism into Bohemia came with German settlers >(who came with Monastic communities invited to develop the land and increase >tax revenues) and with the conversion of some Bohemian rulers. > >A Catholic was not always on the throne during early history. >Assassinations and other intrigues changed that image fairly often at first. >So did the >welcome that German settlers met. There were times when the Czech nobility >became concerned about the economic power of the Germans and tried to expel >them >(they managed to reduce the German population around Iglau in in parts of >the >Schonhegst area by quite a bit),. But the consequences always meant a >loss >of tax revenue so they ended up asking more Germans to settle again. > >For some reason the Czechs never picked up on the German techniques except >in >some of the cities. They preferred to stick with their own farming methods >which barely produced enough for subsistence. > >The conversions of rulers may have been because these men really were >believers but some may have been for political expedience. The Holy Roman >Emperor >would be most inclined to assist Catholics in their efforts to repel pagans >from the East (Avars, Huns) during the early christian times. > >The general nobility may have also decided to become Catholic in the Slavic >church established by Cyril and Methodius, and eventually became Roman >Catholic >when the old Slavic church ceased to exist when the last few Slavic >monasteries closed and were taken over by Benedictines of Premonstratenians. > >Many nobelmen required thier serfs / subjects to practice their religion of >choice. They probably thought of religion as in a pragmatic way -- >helping >to keep tabs on their serfs and to control their activities somewhat. > >Roman Catholicism in Bohemia was more of a conquest by tax revenue >requirements than any other "force". > >Karen > > >==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? >Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html > >______________________________ > >Debra, > >Just search the Internet with "Germans to America." > >Click only on hits with the exact wording. > >Or go to: http://www.genealogienetz.de/misc/emig/gta-holdings.html > >Karen > >______________________________ > >In a message dated 5/12/2006 10:57:03 AM Mountain Standard Time, >Becky.Champion@equifax.com writes: >Have you ever heard of such things as mugs or utensils being >given to the passengers? >Steerage or third class passengers had to bring their own food if they wanted >more than a ration of soup once a day. And they had to have their own >utensils to cook and eat. The mug was probably something brought from Europe, not >provided on board the ship. It could have been a family heirloom taken >along by someone who departed much later than the year on the mug. > >I don't know how cabin passengers were treated regarding food and what they >had to bring with them on board ship. > >There are probably a lot of good websites about ships travel in the 19th >century that will tell you more. > >I once found a very good book about a Jewish family"s crossing on a >steam-assisted sailing ship in the Juvenilge section of our library -- it was a diary >of events in third class. > >Search your local library for books about immigration, immigrants. > >Karen

In a message dated 5/12/2006 10:57:03 AM Mountain Standard Time, Becky.Champion@equifax.com writes: Have you ever heard of such things as mugs or utensils being given to the passengers? Steerage or third class passengers had to bring their own food if they wanted more than a ration of soup once a day. And they had to have their own utensils to cook and eat. The mug was probably something brought from Europe, not provided on board the ship. It could have been a family heirloom taken along by someone who departed much later than the year on the mug. I don't know how cabin passengers were treated regarding food and what they had to bring with them on board ship. There are probably a lot of good websites about ships travel in the 19th century that will tell you more. I once found a very good book about a Jewish family"s crossing on a steam-assisted sailing ship in the Juvenilge section of our library -- it was a diary of events in third class. Search your local library for books about immigration, immigrants. Karen

Debra, Just search the Internet with "Germans to America." Click only on hits with the exact wording. Or go to: http://www.genealogienetz.de/misc/emig/gta-holdings.html Karen

There is a very good website for volunteers who do lookups around the US. See: http://www.raogk.org/faq-requesters.htm You have to read all the way through the FAQ before you get to the link to find a volunteer. The FAQ contains a lot of information about this service and what you will be expected to pay if your volunteer faces any expense in doing your lookup. Explore the site thoroughly, using whatever place names that interest you just to see what you find. Check out the other links that show up at the bottom of the various web pages explored. Karen

In a message dated 5/12/2006 12:11:29 PM Mountain Standard Time, Becky.Champion@equifax.com writes: My problem is that my ancestor sailed in 1892. Everything I've seen (in English) so far, only goes back to 1904... Why does it have to be in English?? Surnames can be read in any language. Karen

Hello Aida: Thanks for the information, but my ips removed the attachment, but not to worry did check the maps and its seem more off a distance than they could travel in the 1700s unless there was a post road with stops. Was there such a road? My Grandfather was born in house# 15. which came into the family from mother , his ggrandmother was a Zickler and I feel that the house #15, originally belong to the Zicklers. Is there any way of finding this out, I have researcher who looking for things for me, I will ask him to see what he can find. Jean in Fl

Dan, I don't recall what you are looking for but you can get mobility databases at: http://www.worldroots.com/ If you are having trouble on your ISP you should switch to another browser. Sometimes I can only get web error messages on AOL but can open the same URLs just fine on Foxfire or Netscape. There are also a few websites out there that really require Internet Explorer to open properly. Karen

In a message dated 5/12/2006 10:14:55 AM Mountain Standard Time, LKrupnak@erols.com writes: > I knew from my own research that the Catholic church since its > conception in the 3rd century under Constantine forcibly (thru > economic or religious) would have many subjugated countries convert > to RCC or suffer the consequences. Read up on Sts. Cyril and Methodius for inhformation about the earliest conversion of the Slavs of Moravia and early Bohemia. The introduction of Roman Catholicism into Bohemia came with German settlers (who came with Monastic communities invited to develop the land and increase tax revenues) and with the conversion of some Bohemian rulers. A Catholic was not always on the throne during early history. Assassinations and other intrigues changed that image fairly often at first. So did the welcome that German settlers met. There were times when the Czech nobility became concerned about the economic power of the Germans and tried to expel them (they managed to reduce the German population around Iglau in in parts of the Schonhegst area by quite a bit),. But the consequences always meant a loss of tax revenue so they ended up asking more Germans to settle again. For some reason the Czechs never picked up on the German techniques except in some of the cities. They preferred to stick with their own farming methods which barely produced enough for subsistence. The conversions of rulers may have been because these men really were believers but some may have been for political expedience. The Holy Roman Emperor would be most inclined to assist Catholics in their efforts to repel pagans from the East (Avars, Huns) during the early christian times. The general nobility may have also decided to become Catholic in the Slavic church established by Cyril and Methodius, and eventually became Roman Catholic when the old Slavic church ceased to exist when the last few Slavic monasteries closed and were taken over by Benedictines of Premonstratenians. Many nobelmen required thier serfs / subjects to practice their religion of choice. They probably thought of religion as in a pragmatic way -- helping to keep tabs on their serfs and to control their activities somewhat. Roman Catholicism in Bohemia was more of a conquest by tax revenue requirements than any other "force". Karen

In a message dated 5/11/2006 8:03:06 AM Mountain Standard Time, sando1@cox.net writes: stevemorse.org I had forgotten about that URL -- thanks for the reminder!! If you cannot find what you want at ProQuest/Heritage Quest, with the index there you can visit Steve Morse's website. Just type in the approximate times during which you believe an ancestor may have sailed and then click on search. You will get a list of ships arriving at the port you chose during that time. Each has a aport of departure listed that may help you choose which ones to view. In my case I know that my great grandfather was mustered out of the army in the last part of 1867 from his military record. I also know he purchased land in MN on May 11, 1869 (land register records at MN Historical Society). I would guess that he did not sail until after the Christmas holidays and before Lent / Easter. Tickets were cheapest during winter weather (terrible time to cross). I also know from family lore that he most likely sailed from LeHavre in France because he did not have a passport. The French didn't care if Germans had travel documents so he took virtually no risk by departing from that port. Antwerp was another "safe" port for undocumented Germans. Many undocumented German men were fleeing the draft, were deserters, or were veterans still in the reserves who could not get a passport. Some may have been fleeing the police. At Steve Morses site I can look at the list of results for ships departing from Le Havre durihng the time I feel is right and use the referenced rolls of film at the LDS for ships lists to study. For arrivals during the 19th C. you have to check all the possible ports which can make a pretty long list of fims to study unless you have a nice "sorter" like LeHavre or Antwerp as a point of departure. Castle Garden Baltimore Philadelphia Great Lakes ports were all used by German-Bohemians. Many who went to Wisconsin used the Great Lakes routes. Some who came after 1872 or so when the RR went into MN went to Baltimore. G-Bs rarely landed at southern ports if they intended to settle in WI or MN. Some may have traveled up the Mississippi from New Orleans. Those who went to Texas ports genereally settled in Texas. Karen

and a good 'force' it was :-) thanks again Karen for the excellent info! ~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ Warrenton, MO http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com Looking for surnames of MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), DILLON, CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, SCHALLOM, STEPPIG, MEES/MAES, REIS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, KRAFT, BANGERT, DIESEL, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, RAPP, MENTEL, SCHELLHORN, STALEY, WEBER, THOELE, MITCHELL, PROBST, GOLD ----- Original Message ----- From: <KarenHob@aol.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 1:57 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Schramm and Lexicon In a message dated 5/12/2006 10:14:55 AM Mountain Standard Time, LKrupnak@erols.com writes: > I knew from my own research that the Catholic church since its > conception in the 3rd century under Constantine forcibly (thru > economic or religious) would have many subjugated countries convert > to RCC or suffer the consequences. Read up on Sts. Cyril and Methodius for inhformation about the earliest conversion of the Slavs of Moravia and early Bohemia. The introduction of Roman Catholicism into Bohemia came with German settlers (who came with Monastic communities invited to develop the land and increase tax revenues) and with the conversion of some Bohemian rulers. A Catholic was not always on the throne during early history. Assassinations and other intrigues changed that image fairly often at first. So did the welcome that German settlers met. There were times when the Czech nobility became concerned about the economic power of the Germans and tried to expel them (they managed to reduce the German population around Iglau in in parts of the Schonhegst area by quite a bit),. But the consequences always meant a loss of tax revenue so they ended up asking more Germans to settle again. For some reason the Czechs never picked up on the German techniques except in some of the cities. They preferred to stick with their own farming methods which barely produced enough for subsistence. The conversions of rulers may have been because these men really were believers but some may have been for political expedience. The Holy Roman Emperor would be most inclined to assist Catholics in their efforts to repel pagans from the East (Avars, Huns) during the early christian times. The general nobility may have also decided to become Catholic in the Slavic church established by Cyril and Methodius, and eventually became Roman Catholic when the old Slavic church ceased to exist when the last few Slavic monasteries closed and were taken over by Benedictines of Premonstratenians. Many nobelmen required thier serfs / subjects to practice their religion of choice. They probably thought of religion as in a pragmatic way -- helping to keep tabs on their serfs and to control their activities somewhat. Roman Catholicism in Bohemia was more of a conquest by tax revenue requirements than any other "force". Karen ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html

My problem is that my ancestor sailed in 1892. Everything I've seen (in English) so far, only goes back to 1904... KarenHob@aol.com 05/12/2006 01:49 To PM GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com cc Please respond to Subject GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Bremen Ships @rootsweb.com List In a message dated 5/11/2006 7:41:38 AM Mountain Standard Time, gregory@giantcomm.net writes: http://feefhs.org/FRL/spl/bremenmf.html Is this the Bremen Ships List you are referring to? Kathy I have never looked at that site. We have access to the indexed ships lists at ProQuest / Heritage Quest web site through connection to our on line public library catalog. That is the ships list we use for searches. You just have to type in the surname and it finds all the possibillities with years. You choose the pages you want o view in the original. A lot of US libraries have this free service on line. You can also access it through your local LDS FHC at the Ancestry.com website to which they subscribe. That site is harder to use than ProQuest but it is better than nothing. Published ships lists in hard copy are available in public libraries as Germans to America. Every so often a new index of all the surnames previously covered is published to help find the names you might want. For German-Bohemians there are many names in the books by Leo Baca -- Czechs to America. Use both resources when looking for German Bohemian ancestors arrival in the U.S. Karen Karen ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ This message contains information from Equifax Inc. which may be confidential and privileged. If you are not an intended recipient, please refrain from any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this information and note that such actions are prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify by e-mail postmaster@equifax.com.

well, not actually that he founded it...but that he was so instrumental in it's birthpangs.... and in the seperation of the early church from its Jewish roots. But then, this topic is probably best taken off list :-) Pam ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@erols.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 11:19 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Schramm and Lexicon Hello Pam, You wrote in part: > I knew from my own research that the Catholic church since its > conception in the 3rd century under Constantine forcibly (thru > economic or religious) would have many subjugated countries convert > to RCC or suffer the consequences. ******* It's not true that Emperor Constantine founded the RCC (Roman Catholic Church): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I_(emperor) http://gbgm-umc.org/UMW/Bible/ce.stm http://www.reformation.org/council_of_chalcedon.html ________ Lavrentiy Krupniak . ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the list? To search the archives, go to: http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN

In a message dated 5/11/2006 7:41:38 AM Mountain Standard Time, gregory@giantcomm.net writes: http://feefhs.org/FRL/spl/bremenmf.html Is this the Bremen Ships List you are referring to? Kathy I have never looked at that site. We have access to the indexed ships lists at ProQuest / Heritage Quest web site through connection to our on line public library catalog. That is the ships list we use for searches. You just have to type in the surname and it finds all the possibillities with years. You choose the pages you want o view in the original. A lot of US libraries have this free service on line. You can also access it through your local LDS FHC at the Ancestry.com website to which they subscribe. That site is harder to use than ProQuest but it is better than nothing. Published ships lists in hard copy are available in public libraries as Germans to America. Every so often a new index of all the surnames previously covered is published to help find the names you might want. For German-Bohemians there are many names in the books by Leo Baca -- Czechs to America. Use both resources when looking for German Bohemian ancestors arrival in the U.S. Karen Karen

In a message dated 5/10/2006 10:12:02 AM Mountain Standard Time, lindatherkela@msn.com writes: As Aida points out, some of them may have been there quite a long time in the same house -- but the church records do not begin until usually the 1700s, perhaps a very few in late 1600s. Don't forget about tax records that go back to 1654 for people who had enough assets to pay taxes at that time. Other tax surveys for the 17th and 18th century are available. There are also various census -- mostly for conscription prior to 1850 or so, so they will only have male names. However, in some areas, there are land records that exist. They would have been kept by the local landowners (the lords or monasteries) -- they needed to keep track of who was paying the rent, robot, other taxes, etc. They do show the passing of a house from father to son, and also some of the other payments to the siblings from the child who got the house and farm, sometimes provisions to the widow, and even some remarriages; some of them act as court records. So it is possible to track back some of the lines farther. This will not help you if one of the families is "landless," and noninheriting children are not always mentioned. The records Linda refers to are generally called "Manorial Records" by the LDS and archivists. They are often filed under the name of the noble family that owned the dominion on which given peasants lived. There are a few on film at the LDS....very few. Professional researchers can usually find out about the ownership for you and tell you what might be available before they visit an archive on your behalf. Then you can choose what you want researched -- land transfers, marriage contracts, last wills and testaments or court (justice) proceedings. To learn the names of the noble lords that owned an ancestral town or village use J.G. Sommer's books: Das Konigreich Boehmen. The history of ownership is on the first pages under the title / chapter heading for each Herrschaft or Dominion. Even if you cannot read German you may be able to pick out the names of the nobles and the years associated with them. In any case you should copy ALL of the pages associated with an ancestral dominion and get the relevant ones translated. I would like to request that anyone who has had Sommer pages translated please make the translations available by putting them up on the Internet or telling the list what you have to share with interested people. There is one website at which the entire Elbogen Kreis book by Sommer is to be translated. The site currently has 383 pages on the Internet. (many thanks to Urs Geiser for this work). http://home.xnet.com/~ugeiser/Genealogy/Bohemia/contents.html Karen