Cathy, I know my husband has been viewing ships lists on line and I believe it was via ProQuest. When he comes in I will ask him how he does that. Have you asked your research librarian what all is available at ProQuest and if their subscription allows access to all? Another option may be to view the lists via Ancestry.com at your local LDS FHC. They subscribe to Ancestry and you would have free access there. It may be more user friendly if you go there via the Steve Morse website. However my husband says that using Ancestry even under a paid subscription is very frustrating because they always have "subscribe now" popups before you can access the pages you want. Be sure you get all the subscriber data you need from the FHC volunteer -- the user login and passwprd that may stop all that nonsense. The German Emigration museum in Bremerhaven is also putting ships departure passenger lists into a database. They have people there to do requested lookups. I don't know if they will email a copy of the documents they find. The first URL below indicates a second emigration museum should open at Hamburg in 2007. http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,369776,00.html http://www.historisches-museum-bremerhaven.de/index.php?id=56 http://www.deutsche-auswanderer-datenbank.de/ As a reminder, not all emigrants sailed from Bremerhaven. Other ports included Amsterdam / Rotterdam, Antwerp, LeHavre and some sourthern ports like Trieste. Which port someone used depended on a number of factors, the most important being whether he was a legal immigrant. Illegals usually chose to leave from France or Belgium. Some illegals were able to travel with a passport issued to an older woman who wanted a man to travel with her. She would apply for a passport presenting the man as her son or other close relative and the county agent would not bother to confirm this was true (maybe he was bribed or owed the family a favor, maybe he was too lazy to ask for proof or maybe the man had a forged birth record). The passport would be one document with the names of everyone in the "party" listed. So a woman would have a son with her when she set sail but when she landed the son disappeared because he went through US immigration under his own name with his real birth record or whatever was required. Thus US arrival documents for Ellis Island may show and arrival for which there was no apparent departure. I understand the same thing happened with immigrants to Australia -- men travelling with a woman who disappeared upon landing. Karen

In a message dated 5/12/2006 1:50:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, KarenHob@aol.com writes: We have access to the indexed ships lists at ProQuest / Heritage Quest web site through connection to our on line public library catalog. I have access to Heritage Quest through my local library, but ships lists are not included. I just use it to search census records. I didn't know they had ships lists. Cathy

Hello: I'm interested in the Drescher link. My grandfather was a Drescher from Maehrisch - Schoenberg, now Sumperk. I have quite a bit of info from that area. If you think there might be a link, please email me. Regards, Claudine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Willow Aliento" <evajune@bigpond.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 11:49 PM Subject: Fw: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Drescher > Hi Jean, > those were 'my' Dreschers...that early back yours could connect, I will > dig out what I have on Therese, which is not much...if the villages are > close, perhaps?! > what names do you have forward on Drescher from Eva and where? > cheers > willow > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "JEAN" <JEAN74@TAMPABAY.RR.COM> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 4:03 AM > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Drescher > > >> Pam I have an Eva Drescher in my lines back to the 1740s They lived in >> Haid, Bohemia any connection? >> Jean in Fl. >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >> list? To search the archives, go to: >> http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN >> >> > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To search the archives, go to: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN > > >

you can scan and send it to me, I read fraktur and gothic. Aida ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arlette Drahos" <adrahos01@comcast.net> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:18 PM Subject: Fw: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] names >I have just come across a "Militaerpass" from my Grandfather (Georg Max >DICK), who fought in WWI in the German Army. > > Is there anyone out there who might be able to translate the old German > writing if I send the pages via email? > > I have been able to piece together what I CAN read (typewritten) but not > the old written German script. > He was in the battle of St Quentin on the Oise among one. He was sent to a > field hospital due to "pleurisy", etc. He served from 1916-1918. > > I'm not sure if all the battles lsited are ones he was in or just a > standard listing. > > Thanks for any help with the translation! > > Arlette > North Port, FL > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To search the archives, go to: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN >

Here is one quote of the critique on the Höfler book mentioned by Michael O'Hearn in re: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07382a.htm "In politics he was one of the leaders of the German-Bohemian party, a branch of the constitutional party of that period, and was one of the chief opponents of the Czechs." ...and while I am myself a victim of the quite unjust expellation of Germans from their native homeland in Bohemia, I am not sure that a person judged so a critique could be above ethnic influence. I will have to get the book and read it in its entirety. But judging from the above sentence, I think I would rather read a thesis that views the situation from "outside" based on facts of historical bibliographies. The other books Höfler has written are highly promotional to the Catholic church. This must also considered to eliminate the shading into one viewpoint or another. The naked fact is that the Slavic influx did not happen before the 7th century and that the land was shared by various German tribes. The leadership, therefore, was by headmen of these tribes among whom Herman (representing the land that is now Germany) and Marcoman (representing the land that is now Austria) both trained militarily in Rome, but became revolutionists against the infiltration of Rome into their lands. They both learned military tactics in Rome and also observed their weaknesses caused by a high culture and easy living. Back with their tribes they armed themselves against Rome. While they fought on the same side against the Romans, in the end Hermann wiped out Marcoman. Even then there were "different Germans".... With Herman and Marcoman holding the borders Romans were not able to penetrate to the East across the Rhine - and also not very far across the Danube to the North. But something else happened......with the climatic aberrations in Asia, what they call a small ice age, Asian herdsmen, nomads and hunters were displaced and wandered to the West in 375 AD. They got to see a new land and the word spread. Slavic people followed them into the still lightly populated area of middle Europe of which the very heart is Bohemia. Therefore, empty land was settled equally by Germanic tribes and Slavic tribes there. It was not until the idea of Panslavism under the Austrian-German leadership of the Habsburgs that they actively pursued the demise of the Empire to get recognition for their own territories. In the meantime, there was a very conflicting ideology circulating among the people of middle Europe which was created by the Church and Religion. Jan Hus was burned at the stake in Constance for his Protestant beliefs by the Catholic church because he supported a thesis of Wycliffe from England in the 14th century (which eventually made Hussites of the Slavs). After Jan Hus was "removed," the Czech people were forced back into the fold of the Catholic church. Not quite 100 years later a similar movement started among the Germans. Martin Luther was instrumental for the Protestant movement among the Germans. But by then the Czechs were back in the Catholic fold and the two ethnic groups were again on opposite sides during the 30 years war. Having read various books about these times, I cannot help but be convinced that the interests of the Church were above the need of the people... it was a political move. It seems we have evolved very little since then, because s! imilar conditions are still brewing in the Mideast now.... So, the way I see it is that both ethnic groups have equal rights to their settled areas but they have missed one another by following the interests of their churches..... there are not quite hundred years between the Jan Hus and Martin Luther movements in the 14th and 15th century. That difference has never had a chance to heal because of political manipulation. Perhaps, our expellation from our German Bohemian homeland and the graceful acceptance of our people in signing a non-retaliatory promise will now bring peace among them. This was a heart-wrenching process, because our people gave up the rights to their ancestral possessions and the right to their homeland. But although it is hard for us, who have seen the horror during and after World War 2, we understood that common sense must prevail. So I am proud that I belong to a group of people who have overcome their gripes and yammers. But we still cry a tear or two. Just think of it, had our people not been expelled, we would have lived under the Communist fist for 50 years because during these years Germany blossomed, and those expellees blossomed with her in a free economic society. While during these years Czechoslovakia withered they began looking yearningly across the borders to the West, to their old brothers whom they had expelled but needed now for support against their Communist existence ..... and this brought both ethnic groups into a better understanding of one another and the realization that they are children of a common homeland and actually BELONG together. Going back to very ancient times it was the iron plow made by the Germans that tilled the fields of the Czechs who provided the food for the craftsmen. It is still so now. Aida

With reference to Robert Froetschl, I tried a few month ago to send him a e-mail, but it was returned. Does anyone on the list know if he still is around, or has he a new e-mail address ? Herb Schwarz Ontario,Canada <schwarzs@ebtech.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: <KarenHob@aol.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 12:53 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing search for family... > In a message dated 5/10/2006 8:32:34 AM Mountain Standard Time, > Becky.Champion@equifax.com writes: > The manifest lists their origination as Klattau. > All list members who are looking for new approaches should explore the > VSFF > website as one of the alternatives. > > Have you hired anyone to look at Pinker name in church records for > Klattau/Klatovy in western Bohemia? > > There was a military caserne in Klattau so soldiers were always there. > > You may get some help on the surname from someone who is > connected with genealogy in Klattau. Robert Froetschl, a German > researcher, goes there from time to time and may have a surname database. > His edress in 2002 was: Froetsch(a)aol.com > > Peter Pawlik may be able to direct you to another researcher. > Get his Edress at: > http://www.bischofteinitz.de/verein.htm > > See also: > http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/SUD/kreise.html#bw > > Karen > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To browse the archives, go to: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ > >

Karen, Good to know this. When it comes to the Jewish people, many of us jump to the conclusion they were forced to reject their faith or face horrible acts placed upon them. Your information as shown that for some it was a choice. I do not know why our ancestors became Catholics and might never find out. Blessings, Mary -------------- Original message -------------- From: KarenHob@aol.com > In a message dated 5/11/2006 7:37:25 PM Mountain Standard Time, > mpettyjohn@comcast.net writes: > Aida, thank you. I misspelled Schubert. Would you mind seeing if Schubert > is listed. Now that is interesting about Fieber and Gold. Pam has often > wondered if we had Jewish ancestors even though Josef's family were Catholic. > > Mary > > > Mary, > > There were a few reasons that Jews would convert. One might be because they > had an opportunity to tattend a military academy and become an officer but > the army would not take Jews. So they converted in order to serve in the army. > That would give them a pension, connections and a chance to travel that they > would not have in their local communitiy. > > There are probably several other pragmatic reasons for conversion for > personal or familial opportunity. > > Others may have married a Catholic and converted for the sake of the children > or simply stopped practicing Judaism and let their children be brought up > Catholic. > > There were synagogues only in the larger towns and cities (if any at all) and > many Jews lived in rural villages as members of a very small Jewish group - > maybe only one or two families. Some few may have joined a local church > because they wanted their children to be less isolated or because they felt a > personal need to participate in religious rites of any kind. > > Karen > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the list? To > search the archives, go to: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN >

There has been in recent years somewhat of a rewriting of the history of German culture in Bohemia which dates back from the 1st century BC and continued until the forceable expulsion in 1945. The link below helps to rediscover this authentic heritage. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07382a.htm Michael O'Hearn __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Thank you, Karen. I have access to Heritage Quest but don't recall seeing anything on Immigration Databases. What I can access is Revolutionary War Pension Files, Census, Books and PERSI. Is Heritage Quest different from one library to another? Kathy -----Original Message----- From: KarenHob@aol.com [mailto:KarenHob@aol.com] Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 12:50 PM To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Bremen Ships List In a message dated 5/11/2006 7:41:38 AM Mountain Standard Time, gregory@giantcomm.net writes: http://feefhs.org/FRL/spl/bremenmf.html Is this the Bremen Ships List you are referring to? Kathy I have never looked at that site. We have access to the indexed ships lists at ProQuest / Heritage Quest web site through connection to our on line public library catalog. That is the ships list we use for searches. You just have to type in the surname and it finds all the possibillities with years. You choose the pages you want o view in the original. A lot of US libraries have this free service on line. You can also access it through your local LDS FHC at the Ancestry.com website to which they subscribe. That site is harder to use than ProQuest but it is better than nothing. Published ships lists in hard copy are available in public libraries as Germans to America. Every so often a new index of all the surnames previously covered is published to help find the names you might want. For German-Bohemians there are many names in the books by Leo Baca -- Czechs to America. Use both resources when looking for German Bohemian ancestors arrival in the U.S. Karen Karen ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/

KarenHob@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 5/12/2006 10:14:55 AM Mountain Standard Time, > LKrupnak@erols.com writes: > > I knew from my own research that the Catholic church since its > > conception in the 3rd century under Constantine forcibly (thru > > economic or religious) would have many subjugated countries convert > > to RCC or suffer the consequences. *********** Hello Karen, To clarify the above, I did not write the above post. ________ Lavrentiy Krupniak .

AH! different Webers, mine were sitting down in Stone Arabia NY by the 1700s, relate to my Mohawk, Palatine and Loyalist lines from pre-American revolution. they were speaking a version of English-German-Iroquois in the Mohawk Valley while yours were still in the old country :) always worth checking though! best wishes willow ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pam" <pam@ewebexpress.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:05 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] g'day Pam -- re your Weber & thanks all for Jewish info > WEBER > > Well, my Weber's are on my husband's side - and unfortunately, I haven't > done a WHOLE lot of searching on 'that' side :-) ... need to get around to > that as I seem to be the ONLY researcher on both sides!! > > anyway - the furtherst back I have is a Joseph WEBER Sr. born 1-05-1833 > Coerbecke Kries, Germany d. 1-12-1892 in Teutopolis, IL - he m. Catherine > PROBST b 7-19-1841 in Kries Ahans Prussia (I've been told that doesn't > make > sense - but haven't figured it out yet :->) and d. May 10, 1904 in > Teutopolis, IL. > > I have children from that marriage and most ended up in St. Louis, MO or > close counties in IL. > > any help? > > ~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ > Warrenton, MO > http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com > http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com > Looking for surnames of MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), DILLON, > CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, > SCHALLOM, STEPPIG, MEES/MAES, REIS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, KRAFT, BANGERT, > DIESEL, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, RAPP, MENTEL, SCHELLHORN, STALEY, WEBER, > THOELE, MITCHELL, PROBST, GOLD > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Willow Aliento" <evajune@bigpond.com> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 9:48 PM > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] g'day Pam -- re your Weber & thanks all for > Jewish info > > > Hi Pam & everyone, > call me slow (comes from being downunda?? lol) but just noticed Weber in > your name list Pam, where & when? some of my Palatine German/Mohawks > connect to Weber family in Stone Arabia NY pre-revolt. My > Stevens/Dachstader-Docksteader line that were UEL. > intersting if we connect there too > best wishes & love to everyone > willow > (Bohemian German great-great-grandparents Franz Franz b Bohemia & Therese > Drescher b Bohemia, emigrated with children to USA 1890s, possibly > 'converso' Jewish way back too -- really enjoyed everyone's insights on > that these last few days) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pam" <pam@ewebexpress.com> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 11:56 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where > did > they come... > > >> again - thank you for this history lesson ... I'm learning SO MUCH!! >> >> blessings~ Pam in MO >> >> ~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ >> Warrenton, MO >> http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com >> http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com >> Looking for surnames of MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), DILLON, >> CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, >> SCHALLOM, STEPPIG, MEES/MAES, REIS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, KRAFT, BANGERT, >> DIESEL, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, RAPP, MENTEL, SCHELLHORN, STALEY, WEBER, >> THOELE, MITCHELL, PROBST, GOLD >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <KarenHob@aol.com> >> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 9:31 PM >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where >> did >> they come... >> >> >> In a message dated 5/9/2006 10:58:11 PM Mountain Standard Time, >> akibb1@verizon.net writes: >> but not all villages had churches and they only appear when the churches >> were built and the recording started. >> >> All villages belonged to a parish community. Some people walked up to >> 8-10 >> km to get to church. Shoes were expensive and they would walk in their >> bare >> feet when weather permitted or in wooden shoes with thick woolen socks >> (if >> they had no boots) and put on shoes just before entering the church. >> >> The vital records for all the villages in a single parish community would >> be >> kept in the church. >> >> Some older villages that had churches lost their pastors and the church >> was >> designated a chaple and was used only on certain days special to the >> community >> like a certain saint's day (the patron of the village). If there were >> enough residents in a village with a church a chaplain might be assigned. >> He was >> like an assistant pastor and he would say masses on sundays and hear >> confessions but the other sacraments like baptism, confirmation, marriage >> had to be >> conducted at the main parish church except emergency baptisms. Some >> villages >> built churches in the hopes that they would get a chaplain. The >> churches >> that were not consecrated parish churches might be used as meeting places >> for >> prayerful events other than Holy Mass and the sacraments. One such event >> might >> be saying goodby to and praying for village men who had been drafted. >> >> Once a church was consecrated, its use for "lay" events would be >> restricted. >> >> Some village chapels were very small and would not hold many people. >> Those >> small chapels would not qualify to have a chaplain but the priest would >> still >> come from the parish center to say masses there on a special day. The >> village would gather outside around the chapel because there might only >> be >> room >> inside for some of the most "important" people. >> >> The next step up for a church was to be designated a filial; (affiliated) >> church. >> They would have a priest permanently assigned but they were still not >> considered a parish church. In theory they served only one place rather >> than a whole >> community of several places even if people from neighboring villages >> preferred to go there rather than all the way to the parish center.. >> Filial churches >> could perform all the sacraments that did not require a bishop but they >> did >> not keep the records -- everything they recorded was sent to and kept at >> the >> main parish church. >> >> Filial churches could become parish churches if there were enough >> residents >> supporting them. They would then begin to keep their own records. >> >> When an ancestral village is known the next step is to learn the name of >> the >> parish community to which it belonged if it was not itself a parish >> center. >> It is also important to know how long it was a parish center. If it >> received >> that designation relatively late then some records of ancestors born >> there >> may be with another nearby parish. >> >> J.G. Sommer's 16-volume collection" Das Königreich Böhmen" lists each >> village in Bohemia (not including Moravia) by name and tells were its >> residents went >> to church and the name of the church. Gregor Wolny "Das Markgrafschaft >> Mähren" does the same for Moravia. Each author wrote one volume for >> each >> district of either Bohemia or Moravia. An author search of the World >> Catalog >> should find the works of both authors - ask your research librarian to >> help >> you >> find the book(s) you want -- the one(s) for your ancestral districts. >> Sign up >> for lending privelges at a college or university library to get copies of >> these books at the least cost. >> Check if that library will let you take a book that is more than 100 >> years >> old out of the library reading room. (A teacher or other person >> associated >> with >> the same institution may be able to get the books for free, take them to >> his/her office and to use them for up to three months vs. 2 weeks for a >> student or >> other borrower.) >> >> An interesting complication regarding church records is how many churches >> changed from catholic to protestant -- back and forth more than once -- >> over the >> period when religion became a political power tool among many of the >> nobility. When a nobleman converted for whatever reason he would >> demand >> that >> everyone of his serfs would also convert and he would designate all >> churches >> in his >> dominon as the denomination he chose. Even though all of the churches >> began >> as Catholic parishes, many became protestant for a time during the >> Hussite >> wars and then, again, during the reformation. They returned to Roman >> Catholic >> inbetween those two episodes. After the Thirty Years War the areas of >> Bohemia that needed new population were settled by Catholics. The >> Kaiser >> demanded >> that all noblemen either convert or swear allegiance to a Catholic Kaiser >> (if >> they fought on his side during the war) and that all the population of >> Bohemia should be Catholic. The city of As (Asch) was allowed to remain >> protestant >> as were parts of Moravia (different politics there). >> >> So when you are looking for ancestral vital records you may find that the >> church of Stes. Peter and Paul in XXX village first has documents in >> Latin >> written by a priest and then in Czech or German written by a protestant >> pastor and >> then in Latin again until German became the official language for all >> records >> after 1740. There are some military church books dated later than 1740 - >> 1760 >> that are still in Latin and I have seen reports of a few records dated as >> late as the 1780s that were in Czech. >> >> Always remember that if your ancestors were of a different denomination >> than >> the denomination "of record" of their parish church, the records for that >> parish should still be searched. >> >> Local parish churches even recorded Jewish vital records when there was >> no >> other means for that -- no nearby synagogue or Rabbi who would take care >> of >> it. >> >> Searching the films at the LDS using the keyword "Jewish" will sometimes >> show a title for a Catholic church. This in not a mistake. Examine >> the >> film >> notes for that title and there will probably be a film or two with notes >> saying >> it includes some records for Jewish residents of the area. >> >> Likewise if a search for "Evangelical" or "brethren" or "ultraquist" hits >> on >> a title that is not that denominatioon it may simply mean that at one >> time >> that church was an Evangelical church or that a few protestant records >> are >> included in the church books because there was no protestant pastor to >> take >> care of >> that. >> >> Karen >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >> list? To browse the archives, go to: >> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >> >> > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? > To browse the archives, go to: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >

Hi Jean, those were 'my' Dreschers...that early back yours could connect, I will dig out what I have on Therese, which is not much...if the villages are close, perhaps?! what names do you have forward on Drescher from Eva and where? cheers willow ----- Original Message ----- From: "JEAN" <JEAN74@TAMPABAY.RR.COM> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 4:03 AM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Drescher > Pam I have an Eva Drescher in my lines back to the 1740s They lived in > Haid, Bohemia any connection? > Jean in Fl. > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To search the archives, go to: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN > >

The Post Roads carried the Post Carriages which were like the US Stage Coaches but they were Express transportation. I read that one could go from Prague to Paris in 7 days or less. Until the RR were built they were the best intercity transportation in Europe but they were too expensive for common folk to use. There are pictures of a Post coach with people sitting inside and all around on the outside. They are usually men and they are wearing top hats!!! The coaches were apparently overbooked and people were willing to put up with whatever in order to get somewhere as quickly as possible. Common folk walked or had a card drawn by a cow or ox or maybe a horse. Karen

For Czech name searches go to http://www.rootsweb.com/~jfuller/gen_mail_country-cze.html or write to: czech-surnames-l-request@rootsweb.com

I didn't respond to this line of messages earlier because the person seeding the information appeared to be convinced the ancestral place was in Moravia. However, Since Saaz was considered, I have check the following site and there is a village named Zdar which was also known as Saar located in Bohemia, not far from my ancestral home. I think I have actually driven through it once or twice. Check here: http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/SUD/kb/saar.html Zdar is located west of Rakovnik (which is west of Prague) on the way from Kralovice to Jesenice. The above site is in German, so you will have to ask someone on the message board if you need help with the translating. I don't read or speak German. I use a German/English dictionary to get by, but from what I can tell it appears that the church at Zdar was a vicarate (branch church) under the administration of the church in Karlsbad (CZ: Karlovy Vary) from 1610. However, it appears that records only go up to 1803, and, if I understand correctly, the church completely ceased to function in the 1950s. But I may have some of this wrong and there are other bits I don't get at all. So, if you think this is the place and can't read it yourself, toss it to the list. There is plenty of help there. Bob Ullman ullman@easystreet.com ----- Original Message ----- From: KarenHob@aol.com To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 5:04 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Re: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-D Digest V06 #113 In a message dated 5/12/2006 4:58:17 PM Mountain Standard Time, alicemckenna@verizon.net writes: and noticed that in the Table of Contents they list an Estate named Saar, or Zdiar, spelled in Czech. The individual who was looking for Bohemians need not investigate the Saarland! It is tempting to think that might have been Saaz which is in the north central Egerland, and was an important place for growing hops for beermaking. Urs Geiser certainly can read Fraktur and Saar must be correct. Thank you for pointing this out! Karen ______________________________

KarenHob@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/12/2006 4:58:17 PM Mountain Standard Time, > alicemckenna@verizon.net writes: > > and noticed that in the Table of Contents they list an Estate named Saar, or > Zdiar, spelled in Czech. The individual who was looking for Bohemians need > not investigate the Saarland! > > It is tempting to think that might have been Saaz which is in the north > central Egerland, and was an important place for growing hops for beermaking. > > Urs Geiser certainly can read Fraktur and Saar must be correct. > > Thank you for pointing this out! > > Karen I have been reading Fraktur since I was a child, but I looked it up anyway, just to be sure. Saar/Zdiar (Zd'ar) is indeed correct, and distinct from Saaz. I can also find the town on the map Egerland-Nordböhmen 1:200,000 (Höfer Verlag). It is straight east from Schlackenwerth/Ostrov and straight south of Klösterle/Klasterec in the Duppau Mountains. You can also find it by going on a straight line from Karlsbad/Karlovy Vary not quite halfway to Saaz/Zatec. The first paragraph of Sommer's book describes its location as: "This dominion is located in the northeastern edge of the [Elbogen] district, on the right side of the Eger, and borders in the north on the dominion Klösterle (Saaz District), in the east on the dominions Winteritz and Maschau (same district), in the south on the dominion Duppau, and in the west on the same dominion, as well as the Gießhübel dominion." The towns within the dominion are (according to Sommer, 1847): Saar (pop.600), Mohlischen/Mollischen (pop.142), Sebeltitz/Seblitz (pop.99), Tiefenbach (pop.206), Olleschau (pop.299), and Hermannsdorf/Hermersdorf (pop.215); also 3 houses in Koßlau (dominion Duppau) If the person interested in this town wishes to contact me, I can look up some more statistics in Sommer's book (about 4 pages of various lists of economic significance). The book has NOTHING on specific families, except a little bit on the nobles who owned the dominion (the owner in 1847, Baron Fleißner of Wostrowitz, bought it in 1803 from the von Rostitz-Rienek family, who had owned it for the previous 141 years). -- Urs Geiser (ugeiser AT xnet.com) Woodridge (DuPage Co.), IL, USA

Does anyone know any historical info on Portage Park in Chicago. My husband's grandparents lived there in the 1920s. Their last name was Haky and his Grandmother's maiden name was Kolesar. Thanks, edie sando sando1@cox.net

and you willow ... Pam ~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ Warrenton, MO http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com Looking for surnames of MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), DILLON, CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, SCHALLOM, STEPPIG, MEES/MAES, REIS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, KRAFT, BANGERT, DIESEL, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, RAPP, MENTEL, SCHELLHORN, STALEY, WEBER, THOELE, MITCHELL, PROBST, GOLD ----- Original Message ----- From: "Willow Aliento" <evajune@bigpond.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 6:16 PM Subject: Fw: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Pam -- your Weber AH! different Webers, mine were sitting down in Stone Arabia NY by the 1700s, relate to my Mohawk, Palatine and Loyalist lines from pre-American revolution. they were speaking a version of English-German-Iroquois in the Mohawk Valley while yours were still in the old country :) always worth checking though! best wishes willow ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pam" <pam@ewebexpress.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 12:05 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] g'day Pam -- re your Weber & thanks all for Jewish info > WEBER > > Well, my Weber's are on my husband's side - and unfortunately, I haven't > done a WHOLE lot of searching on 'that' side :-) ... need to get around to > that as I seem to be the ONLY researcher on both sides!! > > anyway - the furtherst back I have is a Joseph WEBER Sr. born 1-05-1833 > Coerbecke Kries, Germany d. 1-12-1892 in Teutopolis, IL - he m. Catherine > PROBST b 7-19-1841 in Kries Ahans Prussia (I've been told that doesn't > make > sense - but haven't figured it out yet :->) and d. May 10, 1904 in > Teutopolis, IL. > > I have children from that marriage and most ended up in St. Louis, MO or > close counties in IL. > > any help? > > ~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ > Warrenton, MO > http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com > http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com > Looking for surnames of MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), DILLON, > CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, > SCHALLOM, STEPPIG, MEES/MAES, REIS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, KRAFT, BANGERT, > DIESEL, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, RAPP, MENTEL, SCHELLHORN, STALEY, WEBER, > THOELE, MITCHELL, PROBST, GOLD > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Willow Aliento" <evajune@bigpond.com> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 9:48 PM > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] g'day Pam -- re your Weber & thanks all for > Jewish info > > > Hi Pam & everyone, > call me slow (comes from being downunda?? lol) but just noticed Weber in > your name list Pam, where & when? some of my Palatine German/Mohawks > connect to Weber family in Stone Arabia NY pre-revolt. My > Stevens/Dachstader-Docksteader line that were UEL. > intersting if we connect there too > best wishes & love to everyone > willow > (Bohemian German great-great-grandparents Franz Franz b Bohemia & Therese > Drescher b Bohemia, emigrated with children to USA 1890s, possibly > 'converso' Jewish way back too -- really enjoyed everyone's insights on > that these last few days) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pam" <pam@ewebexpress.com> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 11:56 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where > did > they come... > > >> again - thank you for this history lesson ... I'm learning SO MUCH!! >> >> blessings~ Pam in MO >> >> ~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ >> Warrenton, MO >> http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com >> http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com >> Looking for surnames of MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), DILLON, >> CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, >> SCHALLOM, STEPPIG, MEES/MAES, REIS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, KRAFT, BANGERT, >> DIESEL, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, RAPP, MENTEL, SCHELLHORN, STALEY, WEBER, >> THOELE, MITCHELL, PROBST, GOLD >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <KarenHob@aol.com> >> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 9:31 PM >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Searching for family before 1700 or where >> did >> they come... >> >> >> In a message dated 5/9/2006 10:58:11 PM Mountain Standard Time, >> akibb1@verizon.net writes: >> but not all villages had churches and they only appear when the churches >> were built and the recording started. >> >> All villages belonged to a parish community. Some people walked up to >> 8-10 >> km to get to church. Shoes were expensive and they would walk in their >> bare >> feet when weather permitted or in wooden shoes with thick woolen socks >> (if >> they had no boots) and put on shoes just before entering the church. >> >> The vital records for all the villages in a single parish community would >> be >> kept in the church. >> >> Some older villages that had churches lost their pastors and the church >> was >> designated a chaple and was used only on certain days special to the >> community >> like a certain saint's day (the patron of the village). If there were >> enough residents in a village with a church a chaplain might be assigned. >> He was >> like an assistant pastor and he would say masses on sundays and hear >> confessions but the other sacraments like baptism, confirmation, marriage >> had to be >> conducted at the main parish church except emergency baptisms. Some >> villages >> built churches in the hopes that they would get a chaplain. The >> churches >> that were not consecrated parish churches might be used as meeting places >> for >> prayerful events other than Holy Mass and the sacraments. One such event >> might >> be saying goodby to and praying for village men who had been drafted. >> >> Once a church was consecrated, its use for "lay" events would be >> restricted. >> >> Some village chapels were very small and would not hold many people. >> Those >> small chapels would not qualify to have a chaplain but the priest would >> still >> come from the parish center to say masses there on a special day. The >> village would gather outside around the chapel because there might only >> be >> room >> inside for some of the most "important" people. >> >> The next step up for a church was to be designated a filial; (affiliated) >> church. >> They would have a priest permanently assigned but they were still not >> considered a parish church. In theory they served only one place rather >> than a whole >> community of several places even if people from neighboring villages >> preferred to go there rather than all the way to the parish center.. >> Filial churches >> could perform all the sacraments that did not require a bishop but they >> did >> not keep the records -- everything they recorded was sent to and kept at >> the >> main parish church. >> >> Filial churches could become parish churches if there were enough >> residents >> supporting them. They would then begin to keep their own records. >> >> When an ancestral village is known the next step is to learn the name of >> the >> parish community to which it belonged if it was not itself a parish >> center. >> It is also important to know how long it was a parish center. If it >> received >> that designation relatively late then some records of ancestors born >> there >> may be with another nearby parish. >> >> J.G. Sommer's 16-volume collection" Das Königreich Böhmen" lists each >> village in Bohemia (not including Moravia) by name and tells were its >> residents went >> to church and the name of the church. Gregor Wolny "Das Markgrafschaft >> Mähren" does the same for Moravia. Each author wrote one volume for >> each >> district of either Bohemia or Moravia. An author search of the World >> Catalog >> should find the works of both authors - ask your research librarian to >> help >> you >> find the book(s) you want -- the one(s) for your ancestral districts. >> Sign up >> for lending privelges at a college or university library to get copies of >> these books at the least cost. >> Check if that library will let you take a book that is more than 100 >> years >> old out of the library reading room. (A teacher or other person >> associated >> with >> the same institution may be able to get the books for free, take them to >> his/her office and to use them for up to three months vs. 2 weeks for a >> student or >> other borrower.) >> >> An interesting complication regarding church records is how many churches >> changed from catholic to protestant -- back and forth more than once -- >> over the >> period when religion became a political power tool among many of the >> nobility. When a nobleman converted for whatever reason he would >> demand >> that >> everyone of his serfs would also convert and he would designate all >> churches >> in his >> dominon as the denomination he chose. Even though all of the churches >> began >> as Catholic parishes, many became protestant for a time during the >> Hussite >> wars and then, again, during the reformation. They returned to Roman >> Catholic >> inbetween those two episodes. After the Thirty Years War the areas of >> Bohemia that needed new population were settled by Catholics. The >> Kaiser >> demanded >> that all noblemen either convert or swear allegiance to a Catholic Kaiser >> (if >> they fought on his side during the war) and that all the population of >> Bohemia should be Catholic. The city of As (Asch) was allowed to remain >> protestant >> as were parts of Moravia (different politics there). >> >> So when you are looking for ancestral vital records you may find that the >> church of Stes. Peter and Paul in XXX village first has documents in >> Latin >> written by a priest and then in Czech or German written by a protestant >> pastor and >> then in Latin again until German became the official language for all >> records >> after 1740. There are some military church books dated later than 1740 - >> 1760 >> that are still in Latin and I have seen reports of a few records dated as >> late as the 1780s that were in Czech. >> >> Always remember that if your ancestors were of a different denomination >> than >> the denomination "of record" of their parish church, the records for that >> parish should still be searched. >> >> Local parish churches even recorded Jewish vital records when there was >> no >> other means for that -- no nearby synagogue or Rabbi who would take care >> of >> it. >> >> Searching the films at the LDS using the keyword "Jewish" will sometimes >> show a title for a Catholic church. This in not a mistake. Examine >> the >> film >> notes for that title and there will probably be a film or two with notes >> saying >> it includes some records for Jewish residents of the area. >> >> Likewise if a search for "Evangelical" or "brethren" or "ultraquist" hits >> on >> a title that is not that denominatioon it may simply mean that at one >> time >> that church was an Evangelical church or that a few protestant records >> are >> included in the church books because there was no protestant pastor to >> take >> care of >> that. >> >> Karen >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >> list? To browse the archives, go to: >> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >> >> > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? > To browse the archives, go to: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html

In a message dated 5/12/2006 4:58:17 PM Mountain Standard Time, alicemckenna@verizon.net writes: and noticed that in the Table of Contents they list an Estate named Saar, or Zdiar, spelled in Czech. The individual who was looking for Bohemians need not investigate the Saarland! It is tempting to think that might have been Saaz which is in the north central Egerland, and was an important place for growing hops for beermaking. Urs Geiser certainly can read Fraktur and Saar must be correct. Thank you for pointing this out! Karen

In a message dated 5/12/2006 11:52:40 AM Mountain Standard Time, lindatherkela@msn.com writes: I don't have them translated, but do have JPGs of pages 243-266 of Sommer's Budweiser Kreis (which includes Krummau) made for me by someone in Germany with access to a book. I suppose I could ask him if he would mind if I uploaded them to the GBHS site or something. They are not translated and not indexed, however -- people should be aware they are in old German Gothic type. Linda, If you upload them to a website be sure to tell the list. The Gothic German is not so difficult to read after you get used to it. You just have to be sure that if you transcribe anything -- take notes -- that you spell the words with "f" and "s" or "D" and "O" correctly. When I first started transcribing Gothic to Roman type I sometimes would confuse similar letters and use the wrong one. There are gudes to reading Gothic German known as Fraktur on the Internet. Just search with Fraktur and explore the hits. Many FHCs also have booklets about reading Frakture and Frank Soural has written a little booklet on the subject. Frank is a list member. Karen