Thank You Kai, Herb Schwarz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kai-Uwe Schaefer" <kai-uwe.schaefer@telelev.net> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 4:34 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing search for family... > Hello, > > you can try this email address: > > froetschlrf@t-online.de > > > Kai > > Herbert Schwarz schrieb: >> With reference to Robert Froetschl, I tried a few month ago to send him >> a e-mail, but it was returned. Does anyone on the list know if he still >> is around, or has he a new e-mail address ? Herb Schwarz Ontario,Canada >> <schwarzs@ebtech.net> > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >

Hello, you can try this email address: froetschlrf@t-online.de Kai Herbert Schwarz schrieb: > With reference to Robert Froetschl, I tried a few month ago to send him > a e-mail, but it was returned. Does anyone on the list know if he still > is around, or has he a new e-mail address ? Herb Schwarz Ontario,Canada > <schwarzs@ebtech.net>

Karen, All I have is the information that was sent me. The village Sossen (CZ: Sosen), west of Rakovnik was at one time a part of the Petersburg Great Estate. It is listed in the 1654 Tax List. According to an email I received there was a Geargk Schramb (Schramm) listed as a farmer and also listed were his wife and children ans servants. I was trying to do the research on line. I found a site with a link to the tax rolls but the link no longer worked. Do you know a site where I can find the villages of that era. Thanks Mary -------------- Original message -------------- From: KarenHob@aol.com > Mary, > > Do you know where Petersburg is? That is your first project. > > Call the University of WI Geography research library at > > 1-800-558-8993 and tell them you are trying to locate a Petersburg in > Bohemia and the years it would apply. > > They will give you latitude and longitude of possibilities. You either have > to call back in a couple of days for the data or give them your Edress so > they can reply by Email. > > If they can't find it, there is no such place in old Bohemia and you will > have to look in another crownland. You might try Hungary. > > If you have latidude and longitude you can figure out which district it was > in during the time that the Sommer books were written and learn the names of > the noblemen who owned that estate from the book for that district . > . > Those old records of the noble family would probably include estate > employment records, even after 1848 when serfs were freed. > > Is there any chance it should be Pressburg? > > Karen > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the list? To > browse the archives, go to: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >

In a message dated 5/13/2006 4:10:46 PM Mountain Standard Time, mpettyjohn@comcast.net writes: I found a site with a link to the tax rolls but the link no longer worked. Do you know a site where I can find the villages of that era. Being servants does not mean they were on the staff at the castle. As Aida said, just about every farmer's wife had a servant in the household if they could find one to work for the pay they offered, and the farmers had them as field hands and other helpers with the farm work. ------------------------ Always try non-working links on another browser before giving up. Always try the first part of the URL as a separate search and then see if you can go to other pages on the site if you find it is still there. All of us reach the point when we cannot do any more on the Internet except collect information about where you have to go to find more information. You may be at that point and you will have to bite the bullet and start using other sources. ------------------------- The tax rolls index does not have the places that are in the same estate sorted. The index is by surname and jumps all over the map. You have to know the name of the estate to find all the places if you want to page through the whole thing looking for that. Aida has had that index and maybe she knows if there is an index in the back that would refer you to all the pages for surnames related to one estate. ------------------------ You may find data on specific estates tax rolls in Heimat books associated with your ancestral area but they will be in German. Of course that is not all that important when dealing with place names and surnames associated with each. They read the same in German or English. You may get some help on that by writing to the librarians at one of the Heimat libraries and asking if they have a book that would include your ancestral places. There is the Haus der Heimat in Nürnberg and another in Stuttgart. Bibliothek@hdhbw.BWL.de The librarians at both places know English. Sometimes they will scan stuff they have and Email it to you. Otherwise you get hard copy via snail mail and you should offer to pay for that. ----------------------------- Try Shtetlseeker.com to search for places by coordinates and see what it comes up with if you use general numbers like 50; 13 or 50,7 If you find a place like Zdar and then click on the blue M link in the line with it on the hit list you will get a map showing its location. That should at least show the main places around the Schloss and you should be able to find the German place names for the same places if you need them for parish records. ---------------------- If you can't find a database a map will do if it is detailed enough. You can get one from the University of WI library that would show the location of the Schloss and all the places in the area around it. You may find the same information with German place names on the map at http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/31-50.jpg That map seems to include most of the sites on the MapQuest map generated at Shtetlseeker. ----------------------------------- I don't know why the older maps do not have the same longitude that Aida said is the correct one. Does anyone know when / if latitude designation changed? -------------------------- The only source I know that lists the villages that belonged to a certain noble estate would be the J.G. Sommer books. Even though they were written between 1833 and 1849 they include older history of ownership of the estates listed. The one for Elbogen Kreis may work for you on interlibrary loan. If you want more current history you may have to search with the name of the noble family that was the last owner to see if they sold it and when. Or maybe search with the name of the Estate. The estate may not be named Saar. Find Saar in the book's index and it will take you to the pages that follows the chapter heading (name of the estate). Page backward until you reach the title page for the name of the estate and turther research. The estate may not have the same name as the parish, either. -------------------------- I understand there are some books out there that have maps of the old noble estates of Bohemia but I have yet to find the maps. It is possible that there are also maps that go with the individual district books about the Berni Ruly/Berni Rula. But they would represent an earlier time when districts were not at all the same and noble estates may also have been significantly different in terms of their borders. If any list members knows about these books or the book that has the maps, please tell the list the title and author. Karen

Does anyone know how to locate the list of servants for the Petersburg Great Estate for 1654. I tried the Kingdom of Bohemia website but did not know how to use it. When I do a google search for this estate and Sossen I only get hits for Petersburg Russia. I found a possible lead on Schramm. Mary

Thank you, I will see what I can find out. The library I have access to is the Kansas State Library online. Kathy -----Original Message----- From: KarenHob@aol.com [mailto:KarenHob@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 2:20 PM To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Bremen Ships List In a message dated 5/13/2006 9:21:51 AM Mountain Standard Time, gregory@giantcomm.net writes: Is Heritage Quest different from one library to another? That is a question for your research librarian. I ohly know what we get at our library and until my husband gets in I can't have him demonstrate. He does all our lookups and knows the proceedures. Karen ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the list? To browse the archives, go to: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/

Hi Karen, thank you for your reply, but in the meantime I seem to have found Robert Froetschl's new e-mail address.It seems to be O.K. as my message was not returned. the address seems to be froetschlrf@t-online.de . The adddress was in one of the bohemian research sites you provided. Thank you, Herb Schwarz, Ontario,Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: <KarenHob@aol.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 2:59 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Renewing search for family... > In a message dated 5/13/2006 9:41:58 AM Mountain Standard Time, > schwarzs@ebtech.net writes: > With reference to Robert Froetschl, I tried a few month ago to send him a > e-mail, but it was returned. Does anyone on the list know if he still is > around, or has he a new e-mail address ? Herb Schwarz Ontario,Canada > > Herb, > > Contact Peter Pawlik at the web site I suggested and ask him how to contac > Froetschl. > > Robert's brother Oswald also does research in Bohemian archives but I > don't > know if he does it for others. He has published some of his work in > Heimat > newsletters. > > http://www.genealogienetz.de/vereine/VSFF/vsff-betr.html#wb > > Under Mies-Pilsen you will find both with what is probably the correct > Edress. > > I know Robert will also work in Klatovy / Klattau because he has told me > about his research there. > > Friedebert Volk is another very good contact. > > I don't know what any of them charge for their services. > > Karen > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To browse the archives, go to: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ > >

Aida sent me this note about a military pass. The note was written by the person submitting the pass. > He was in the battle of St Quentin on the Oise among one. He was sent to a > field hospital due to "pleurisy", etc. He served from 1916-1918. Lung disease probably killed as many (if not more) soldiers as wounds during most of the wars in which Austria was involved over time. Regimental churchbooks show the cause of death and I don't think I have seen a single page in a military church register that does not have at least 2-3 deaths due to Tuberculosis or other lung disease. About an Austrian soldier serving at St. Quentin in France: Very few , if any , Austrian troops served in France. The very great majority were all on the Eastern Front against Russia, in the south (Balkans) or in the Italian alps. Maybe there were some small units who were observers of what was going on in France or involved in getting supplies from there to the East. The German troops who served in France were almost all Prussians. Czechs and Slovaks who served in France were almost all expatriates who joined volunteer units or expates from the US, deserters from the Austrian army and men who fled the draft in Bohemia and joined up to fight the Germans in France, Russia and Italy. Their units were called the Czech Legion or Slovak Legion. I have not heard that these Czech and Slovak volunteer groups had any ethnic German soldiers in them since their main purpose was to fight the Germans. I doubt that a Czech serving in the French army at that time would have a military passbook in German so your ancestor may not have been a Czech Legionaire. There is an English website for WW I Austrian engagements and where the various units of the army served http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/ The pages showing Orders of Battle explain which Austrian units were tied to which larger army group and where they were serving. Karen

A new page has been added at the WW I orders of battle website. It is a Divisional Order of Battle for the summer of 1918. http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/div1918.html It shows which regiments had battlions from other regiments -- something that has been hard to determine before. When one or more battalions from one regiment was used to reinforce another one it was often because the former had had such serious losses that It was easier for them to just join with another understrength regiment. than to wait for reinforcements. The data is easy to read if you understand the method. For example, the first entry for the 1st Division shows: IR 5 (3) IR 61 (IV/43, II/61, III 61) IR 112 (V/71, II/72, III/71) FJB 17,25, 31 StB 1 The notations in parentheses are the ones that are important. IV/43 means fourth battalion of the 43rd Infantry regiment. V/71 is fifth Battalion of the 71st. III/71 is third Battalion of the 71st and so forth. I have not learned if any battalions that ended up in a regiment other than the one in which they originated affected where / how the records for that battalion are filed. If you contact a researcher to find WW I records in Vienna (the only place you can get them at present) you may be helping him/her to find them by providing the URL to the website above. At least that will indicate where records may be found if they are not with the regiment that should have recruited a given soldier. One of the reasons WW I records are not available at the LDS is because they are under privacy restrictions and can only be viewed in SLCity at present. It has to be 100 years after the dates on the records before they will circulate to FHCs. There are perhaps over 1000 Austrian military records films in SLC that are not yet catalogged. It is hard to say when they will ever show up in the on line catalog, especially since the LDS is starting to go all digital in their archiving. About restricted films: You can hire someone in SLC to view them for you if you sign a certain permit paper. Or you can travel there yourself. If you travel to SLC you have to order your films several days in advance or they will not be available for up to 48 hours after you get there if they are in the vault. (All Austrian military records are in the vault). In the long run, paying a pro $100 for a one item search may be a lot cheaper than staying in SLC for 4-5 days plus the cost of travel to get there. Karen

Mary, Do you know where Petersburg is? That is your first project. Call the University of WI Geography research library at 1-800-558-8993 and tell them you are trying to locate a Petersburg in Bohemia and the years it would apply. They will give you latitude and longitude of possibilities. You either have to call back in a couple of days for the data or give them your Edress so they can reply by Email. If they can't find it, there is no such place in old Bohemia and you will have to look in another crownland. You might try Hungary. If you have latidude and longitude you can figure out which district it was in during the time that the Sommer books were written and learn the names of the noblemen who owned that estate from the book for that district . . Those old records of the noble family would probably include estate employment records, even after 1848 when serfs were freed. Is there any chance it should be Pressburg? Karen

Try these: http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/SUD/kb/woratschen.html - see Sossen on this one www.genealogienetz.de/reg/SUD/kb/petersburg.html - sie Petrohrad - Petersburg Boehmen and here is one of the Castle, but for the world of me, I cannot open it, maybe you are luckier. Aida Schloß Petersburg bei Saar/Böhmen - Architektur-Führer ... Schloß Petersburg bei Saar/Böhmen. Architekt, Architekturbüro, Architekten ... Böhmen. Schloß Petersburg bei Saar/Böhmen. Übersetzung. Petrohrad/Sazava ... deu.archinform.net/ort/7897.htm - ----- Original Message ----- From: <mpettyjohn@comcast.net> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 2:28 PM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Help with locating the Petersburg Great Estate > Does anyone know how to locate the list of servants for the Petersburg > Great Estate for 1654. I tried the Kingdom of Bohemia website but did not > know how to use it. When I do a google search for this estate and Sossen > I only get hits for Petersburg Russia. I found a possible lead on > Schramm. > > Mary > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >

To find Petersburg, Petrohrad on a Czech map here are the coordinates Loc: 50°7'39.06"N, 13°26'47.09"E

Go to www.mapy.cz and key in Ptrohrad and you will get to this place. This is also where the Czernys had their castle and it was called "Schloß Petersburg bei Saar/Böhmen." This is what is available in the Archives of their church registers. Aida Kirchenbuchverzeichnis des Pfarrbezirks / Church registers in the parish: Petersburg (c. Petrohrad) mit Ortschaften: Petersburg, Klumtschan (auch: Chlumtschan), Tschentschitz, Willenz (auch: Wilenz), Finkelmühle bei Petersburg, Neumühle bei Tschentschitz, Knieschehay. Aufbewahrungsort: Staatliches Gebietssarchiv Leitmeritz. Bemerkungen: a.. Archiv Sign.-Nr. L 116 b.. Pfarrgeschichte: Zu Petersburg gehört das gleichnamige Schloß der Grafen Czernin von und zu Chudenitz, ab 1895 wurde auch der Ort Klumtschan/Chlumtschan angegliedert. Petersburg gehörte in früherer Zeit zum Pfarrsprengel Steben. Durch Testament des Grafen Hermann Czernin von Chudenitz wurde im Jahre 1650 ein Schloßkaplan gestiftet. Seither fanden in der Schlosskapelle die Gottesdienste statt. Die Kaplanei wurde im Jahre 1786 zu einer Lokalie und ab 1808 zu einer selbständigen Pfarre erhoben, zu deren Sprengel Tschentschitz und Willenz gehören. c.. Petersburg, Klumtschan und Willenz: gehörten 1684-1784 zu Pfarrei Jechnitz. d.. Tschentschitz (mit Neumühle): gehörte 1580-1657 zu Pfarrei Podersam, 1667-1784 zu Pfarrei Kriegern. e.. Knieschehay: 1761-1786 zu Pfarrei Kriegern. Band Matriken-Art Jahrgänge Pfarrorte neu alt 1 *i 1785-1872 Petersburg, Finkelmühle bei Petersburg ooi 1785-1878 Petersburg, Finkelmühle bei Petersburg +i 1785-1874 Petersburg, Finkelmühle bei Petersburg 2 I *i ooi +i 1785-1884 Willenz 3 *i 1784-1872 Tschentschitz, Neumühle bei Tschentschitz oo 1784-1879 Tschentschitz, Neumühle bei Tschentschitz + 1784-1882 Tschentschitz, Neumühle bei Tschentschitz 4 I *i 1785-1863 Klumtschan oo 1785-1877 Klumtschan + 1785-1871 Klumtschan 5 II * 1863-1899 Klumtschan oo 1880-1899 Klumtschan + 1871-1899 Klumtschan

In a message dated 5/12/2006 10:14:42 PM Mountain Standard Time, KarenHob@aol.com writes: Common folk walked or had a card drawn by a cow or ox or maybe a horse. That typo makes a funny picture! Should be "cart". That was usually a high-sided two wheeler. A few farmers had wagons with four wheels that they used as hay wagons and to bring in crops during harvest. I don't know if they used them for a longer trip on the road unless they had a pair of oxen or horses to pull them. A wagon could get pretty heavy if loaded with household goods and there were not generally paved roads on which to make your way to the nearest river where you might catch a river raft for the next leg of your journey. There may also have been limits on the amount of weight the river transports carried making carts more apt to be accepted and cheaper to transport by raft. The RR were the first public transport that made distance travel feasible for the common folk. In Bohemia there were very few of them in 1850. Development was slow but steady after that. There are some maps of RR lines in Bohemia in my 1895 Putzger's Schule Atlas. This historic atlas has a lot of very useful and rare maps. Putzgers dated later are cheaper to buy but they also lack a lot of the maps found in the older editions -- they concentrate on modern history. You have to get one made after 1918 to get the new map of Europe at the end of WW II and one made after 1945 for the end of WW II maps. I also have one from the 1950s that has all those maps. I suggest that list members check what they might be able to buy in an old Putzger's at Alibris or other used book stores on the Internet. There may be a number of them listed at the ZVAB website. I used Putzger as a searchword and got a lot of hits. I scrolled down looking for the oldest publication date. A 1908 edition was EUR 20. 1899 is EUR 34.10. The 1961 Jubilee edition appears to have some "extra" stuff in it, is only $16 or so at Alibris. Amazon.de also has some hits with the search: Putzger. Karen

Laurenty, I didn't pay attention when I sent if. If I had I think I would have taken a second look because I don't think you would send a comment like that. Karen

In a message dated 5/13/2006 9:21:51 AM Mountain Standard Time, gregory@giantcomm.net writes: Is Heritage Quest different from one library to another? That is a question for your research librarian. I ohly know what we get at our library and until my husband gets in I can't have him demonstrate. He does all our lookups and knows the proceedures. Karen

As an addendum to my Jewish genealogy conference note, there is contact information that may interest all list members at: http://www.jgsny2006.org/vendors.cfm Karen

I have just come across a "Militaerpass" from my Grandfather (Georg Max DICK), who fought in WWI in the German Army. Is there anyone out there who might be able to translate the old German writing if I send the pages via email? I have been able to piece together what I CAN read (typewritten) but not the old written German script. He was in the battle of St Quentin on the Oise among one. He was sent to a field hospital due to "pleurisy", etc. He served from 1916-1918. I'm not sure if all the battles lsited are ones he was in or just a standard listing. Thanks for any help with the translation! Arlette North Port, FL

For list members who are interested in Jewish Genealogy, http://www.jgsny2006.org/ - 2006 Jewish Genealogy conrference in NY. Search the Internet with IAJGS for more information about Jewish genealogy societies aaround the US. Karen

In a message dated 5/13/2006 9:41:58 AM Mountain Standard Time, schwarzs@ebtech.net writes: With reference to Robert Froetschl, I tried a few month ago to send him a e-mail, but it was returned. Does anyone on the list know if he still is around, or has he a new e-mail address ? Herb Schwarz Ontario,Canada Herb, Contact Peter Pawlik at the web site I suggested and ask him how to contac Froetschl. Robert's brother Oswald also does research in Bohemian archives but I don't know if he does it for others. He has published some of his work in Heimat newsletters. http://www.genealogienetz.de/vereine/VSFF/vsff-betr.html#wb Under Mies-Pilsen you will find both with what is probably the correct Edress. I know Robert will also work in Klatovy / Klattau because he has told me about his research there. Friedebert Volk is another very good contact. I don't know what any of them charge for their services. Karen