You sure are a bona fide old time Egerlander according to your ancestral names and these cannot be traced back because they were there ALL THE TIME! I might even know your Karlsbader Theisingers, or at least my parents did with certainty. Re.Chronik.... yes some of it you can abstract in the general form from the Kreis Chronik, but you will have to go to the Village itself to find the individuals that lived there. Many times they are revealed as village elders (and with your Egerlander names I am quite sure you will find them there) . And I am also sure that you will find most all of them in the Berni Rula, just as I did, which is an alphabetical listing, but be very "creative" as to spelling! It can be requested on an interlibrary loan and if you scroll back a few days you will find my posting of its source. It is good to copy and paste all these information on into a "research folder" ... you never know when you will need them. Aida Theisinger: Cuno von Theising is recorded 1295 at Salzburg, another branch called Theisinger were in Bohemia and Bavaria. There is also a village in the Egerland called Theusing. Götz: you can hardly get more Egerländerisch than this!!! The best pastry shop in Karlsbad was Götzl (a smaller version of Götz= Gottfried), also listed as Goczel at Prague and Breslau in 1389. Kühnl: "kühn" means brave. Written as Kühndl at Iglau in 1391, spelled Kiendl in Austria, Kühnl in Unterfranken, Bavaria Mühlhans, Meyer are too generell for all of Germany and therefore very hard to place! Guetter may be Allemanni(different German tribe from Marcomanni to the East) written as Güder in Switzerland where it means "spendthrift" or "wastrel" shows up in 1278 at Pullendorf and 1438 at Heidelberg. Brandl and Brandt comes from Hildebrandt (legendary figure) who was the swordmaker (weapon-smith) for Dietrich v. Bern, read the Nibelungen Lied! Elevated status W. (?) de Brant 1280 at Zürich, 1289 at Württemberg, Brant Klobelauch 1493 at Frankfurt, Sebastian Brant, poet, 1500. I went to school with 2 Brandls at Karlsbad . Knoebl: probably from either Saxon or Bavarian area where they show as Knöfel. In old high German it is written as "Knöufel" and means "Knopf" which is a button. A button maker most likely. Shows up in 1549 at Leipzig, just North of the Egerland beyond the Ore Mountains. ------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven and Susan Karides" <karides@sbcglobal.net> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer > Thank you, Aida for all your valuable information. I've, in fact been to > all of my ancestral villages (not much remaining, there!), have > Heimatbuecher for the villages and am still in contact and frequently > visit my dad's cousins who went from the Egerland to Bavaria at the time > of the expulsion. I've got my research rather far back on my main surname > lines, but because I was under the incorrect assumption that they were > not landowners, never endeavored to research the Berni Rula (will have to > check the archives to find out how!), although have read what I think you > refer to as the Chronik (am I correct to think of that as the Chronik of > the Kreis such as that one I have "Falkenau, Stadt und Land"? I've just > always been told by the "oldtimers" in the family in Bavaria (some who > are involved in the Heimatstuben) that my names (main ones are Muehlhans > and Theisinger) are very old Egerlaender names that "go way back" (no > one can ever tell me how far back, though!). So, perhaps a new direction > for research I thought I had finished a long time ago!! Thanks. again, > for all your insight. You help a great number of people. > > Since I have not posted my surnames for ages, I will list the main ones: > MUEHLHANS/GOETZ/THEISINGER/KNOEBL/KUEHNL/BRANDL/MAYER/GUETTER/ ERTL all in > Kreis Falkenau a.d. Eger (Theisinger relocated to Karlsbad in 1920s). > Susan > On May 17, 2006, at 6:33 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > >> >> All the above titles means that they are property owners in the >> Egerland. Perhaps individual nobles had different types of serfs for >> whom they provided a living space, but that would be for the minority of >> the Egerland population. So we should not assume that our ancestors >> were "serfs" but most likely did certain tasks in lieu of paying taxes. >> I have never encountered this in my own ancestral search, as they are >> all listed in the Berni Rula as property owners. And they appear in >> the Berni rula with the various description or titles of Owner, Farmer, >> Cottager and Gardener. >> If you walked through a village in Bohemia, you would see that there >> are as many different sized properties, as you'll find anywhere. The >> only difference is that the farms are all clustered together into a >> village and their fields are on the periphery. A farm that stood by >> itself was usually a "Gut" or a "Hof" and had larger and more buildings, >> they are very old land holdings. >> Now here is what I know from researching my own ancestors and at >> first, my opinion of Häusler and Gardener was just like yours, until I >> found out that they were actually owners of these places and had to pay >> taxes. I have several original documents and one ancestor is listed as >> Bürger und Schuhmacher (burgher and shoemaker) at Petschau and they >> owned that house and a large garden. There was a castle at Petschau, and >> I believe that the Beauforts lived there. If anyone offspring of these >> Nobles reads this, please enlighted us about the status of the common >> population! >> There is a Bürger und Uhrmacher (burgher and watchmaker) at the town >> of Marienbad in my family, and while he himself at the time of his >> marriage is not listed as Hausbesitzer (Owner), his father owned 3 >> hotels. There is one Wundarzt (surgeon) at Donawitz and there is no >> listing that he was either a Burgher or Owner. There is a Häusler" >> (cottager) at Neumetternich near Marienbad who owned his place and >> married a "Bauerntochter" (farmer's daughter) from Dürrmaul, they owned >> a very substantial Tudor "cottage" until they were expelled. There is a >> "Hausbesitzer" at Schönthal (which was a large village) who owned a >> "Hof" (large farm) where the family lived until expellation. They were >> original settlers and mentioned in the Chronic and the Berni Rula. >> There are several other family members who lived in the Egerland and >> were given the title "Häusler," but all these were well built stone or >> brick houses with basement and 2 stories... and were still in the family >> when they were expelled. >> What we have to do here is to pay attention to the area where they >> lived and who administered the area. We have to search and ask: was the >> land they lived on belonging to a cloister, a noble, a landholding of a >> nearby City, or very old settlers property. The latter can lead far >> back, probably to 1100-1300, for which there may be no records. The >> Catholic Church appears in the 12th century, but somewhat earlier in the >> Prag and Budweis areas. It would be best to get in touch with the >> expelled people, who maintain "Heimatstuben" in Germany and request a >> name list of early settlers of that particular village from their >> Chronic. Most of the original record keepers have passed on, but there >> are contact people for the individual villages. Go to a German >> website.....and www.yahoo.de is a good one, put the German name of your >> ancestor's village in the URL and see what comes up. Some of them are >> better than others. I presume that you have checked the Rootsweb first! >> Do not be too optimistic to get at any of the Chronics! >> Unfortunately, I must warn you here, that some of these irreplaceable >> records found their end buried in manure piles because of names recorded >> there during the Nazi occupation. The person in charge of these >> documents was most likely a Party member destroying evidence. Had the >> Czechs found a Chronic in a village where names were recorded who held >> offices during the Hitler regime, the executions would have hit even >> more ferociously. So don't place too much hope on finding these. You >> will be luckiest with those villages closest to the Bavarian Border, >> because the people hightailed out of there in a hurry, taking the entire >> village archives along - like the people of Eger, for instance - and in >> most cases the US occupational Forces provided their transportation. >> The records of the Berni Rula will show all your ancestors that were >> propertied it 1651. >> If your ancestor came from the Budweis and Pilsen area it just might >> be a little different than the situation in the Egerland because there >> is a different historical background. The Egerland was not Bohemia >> originally, it was part of the Oberpfalz, and that was and still is to >> this day: Bavaria. >> How to locate the Egerland correctl, that I will put into a different >> Email. >> Aida >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven and Susan Karides" >> <karides@sbcglobal.net> >> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:45 PM >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer >> >> >>> >>> On May 15, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: >>> >>> A "Bauer" is farmer with a full spread, "Häusler" is most likely a >>> craftsman operating a smaller farm, "Gardener" is employed elsewhere >>> and just grows his vegetables and raises small animals around the >>> house he owns, and a "Hausbesitzer" is a Burgher in a town, a free man >>> >>> >>>> The definition of a "Haeusler" in William E. Wrights "Serf, Seigneur >>>> and Sovereign..Agararian Reform in Eighteenth-Century Bohemia" is >>>> summed up in his passage(p 17): " Further peasant ranks included >>>> cotters (Haeusler) and servants or day laborers (Inleute). These >>>> usually held no land other than gardens adjacent to their houses. >>>> They supported themselves and their families by working for their >>>> wages or payment in kind. Their obligations to the lord were usually >>>> considerably fewer than those of the land- holding peasants." I had >>>> always construed that to mean that they did now own any land, >>>> including the house in which they lived. Is that correct? I have lots >>>> of Haeuslers in the 1700s and early 1800s. Thanks for all your >>>> knowledge that you so unselfishly share! >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> >>> >>>> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>>> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >>>> list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// >>>> archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>> Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? >>> Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >> list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// >> archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >> > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >

Thank you, Aida for all your valuable information. I've, in fact been to all of my ancestral villages (not much remaining, there!), have Heimatbuecher for the villages and am still in contact and frequently visit my dad's cousins who went from the Egerland to Bavaria at the time of the expulsion. I've got my research rather far back on my main surname lines, but because I was under the incorrect assumption that they were not landowners, never endeavored to research the Berni Rula (will have to check the archives to find out how!), although have read what I think you refer to as the Chronik (am I correct to think of that as the Chronik of the Kreis such as that one I have "Falkenau, Stadt und Land"? I've just always been told by the "oldtimers" in the family in Bavaria (some who are involved in the Heimatstuben) that my names (main ones are Muehlhans and Theisinger) are very old Egerlaender names that "go way back" (no one can ever tell me how far back, though!). So, perhaps a new direction for research I thought I had finished a long time ago!! Thanks. again, for all your insight. You help a great number of people. Since I have not posted my surnames for ages, I will list the main ones: MUEHLHANS/GOETZ/THEISINGER/KNOEBL/KUEHNL/BRANDL/MAYER/GUETTER/ ERTL all in Kreis Falkenau a.d. Eger (Theisinger relocated to Karlsbad in 1920s). Susan On May 17, 2006, at 6:33 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > All the above titles means that they are property owners in the > Egerland. Perhaps individual nobles had different types of serfs > for whom they provided a living space, but that would be for the > minority of the Egerland population. So we should not assume that > our ancestors were "serfs" but most likely did certain tasks in > lieu of paying taxes. I have never encountered this in my own > ancestral search, as they are all listed in the Berni Rula as > property owners. And they appear in the Berni rula with the > various description or titles of Owner, Farmer, Cottager and Gardener. > If you walked through a village in Bohemia, you would see that > there are as many different sized properties, as you'll find > anywhere. The only difference is that the farms are all clustered > together into a village and their fields are on the periphery. A > farm that stood by itself was usually a "Gut" or a "Hof" and had > larger and more buildings, they are very old land holdings. > Now here is what I know from researching my own ancestors and > at first, my opinion of Häusler and Gardener was just like yours, > until I found out that they were actually owners of these places > and had to pay taxes. I have several original documents and one > ancestor is listed as Bürger und Schuhmacher (burgher and > shoemaker) at Petschau and they owned that house and a large > garden. There was a castle at Petschau, and I believe that the > Beauforts lived there. If anyone offspring of these Nobles reads > this, please enlighted us about the status of the common population! > There is a Bürger und Uhrmacher (burgher and watchmaker) at the > town of Marienbad in my family, and while he himself at the time of > his marriage is not listed as Hausbesitzer (Owner), his father > owned 3 hotels. There is one Wundarzt (surgeon) at Donawitz and > there is no listing that he was either a Burgher or Owner. There > is a Häusler" (cottager) at Neumetternich near Marienbad who owned > his place and married a "Bauerntochter" (farmer's daughter) from > Dürrmaul, they owned a very substantial Tudor "cottage" until they > were expelled. There is a "Hausbesitzer" at Schönthal (which was a > large village) who owned a "Hof" (large farm) where the family > lived until expellation. They were original settlers and mentioned > in the Chronic and the Berni Rula. There are several other family > members who lived in the Egerland and were given the title > "Häusler," but all these were well built stone or brick houses > with basement and 2 stories... and were still in the family when > they were expelled. > What we have to do here is to pay attention to the area where > they lived and who administered the area. We have to search and > ask: was the land they lived on belonging to a cloister, a noble, a > landholding of a nearby City, or very old settlers property. The > latter can lead far back, probably to 1100-1300, for which there > may be no records. The Catholic Church appears in the 12th > century, but somewhat earlier in the Prag and Budweis areas. It > would be best to get in touch with the expelled people, who > maintain "Heimatstuben" in Germany and request a name list of early > settlers of that particular village from their Chronic. Most of > the original record keepers have passed on, but there are contact > people for the individual villages. Go to a German > website.....and www.yahoo.de is a good one, put the German name of > your ancestor's village in the URL and see what comes up. Some of > them are better than others. I presume that you have checked the > Rootsweb first! > Do not be too optimistic to get at any of the Chronics! > Unfortunately, I must warn you here, that some of these > irreplaceable records found their end buried in manure piles > because of names recorded there during the Nazi occupation. The > person in charge of these documents was most likely a Party member > destroying evidence. Had the Czechs found a Chronic in a village > where names were recorded who held offices during the Hitler > regime, the executions would have hit even more ferociously. So > don't place too much hope on finding these. You will be luckiest > with those villages closest to the Bavarian Border, because the > people hightailed out of there in a hurry, taking the entire > village archives along - like the people of Eger, for instance - > and in most cases the US occupational Forces provided their > transportation. > The records of the Berni Rula will show all your ancestors that > were propertied it 1651. > If your ancestor came from the Budweis and Pilsen area it just > might be a little different than the situation in the Egerland > because there is a different historical background. The Egerland > was not Bohemia originally, it was part of the Oberpfalz, and that > was and still is to this day: Bavaria. > How to locate the Egerland correctl, that I will put into a > different Email. > Aida > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven and Susan Karides" > <karides@sbcglobal.net> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:45 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer > > >> >> On May 15, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: >> >> A "Bauer" is farmer with a full spread, "Häusler" is most >> likely a craftsman operating a smaller farm, "Gardener" is >> employed elsewhere and just grows his vegetables and raises small >> animals around the house he owns, and a "Hausbesitzer" is a >> Burgher in a town, a free man >> >> >>> The definition of a "Haeusler" in William E. Wrights "Serf, >>> Seigneur and Sovereign..Agararian Reform in Eighteenth-Century >>> Bohemia" is summed up in his passage(p 17): " Further peasant >>> ranks included cotters (Haeusler) and servants or day laborers >>> (Inleute). These usually held no land other than gardens >>> adjacent to their houses. They supported themselves and their >>> families by working for their wages or payment in kind. Their >>> obligations to the lord were usually considerably fewer than >>> those of the land- holding peasants." I had always construed >>> that to mean that they did now own any land, including the house >>> in which they lived. Is that correct? I have lots of Haeuslers >>> in the 1700s and early 1800s. Thanks for all your knowledge that >>> you so unselfishly share! >> >> Susan >> >> >> >>> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you >>> joined the list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// >>> archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >>> >> >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? >> Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined > the list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// > archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >

Yes, they lived most certainly in the Egerland and would have spoken our dialect which is Oberpfälzerisch German, and this is still spoken to this day in the Hof, Bayreuth and Marktredwitz areas! If you visit there, go to an Inn "Gasthof" in the evening when the local folks come for a drink of beer and play cards..... and then sit quietly in a corner and LISTEN!!! Egerland has nothing to do with Eggs.... it is Eger (the river) + land. The other mailings I compiled with help you immensely to understand the area of your ancestry. Aida ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "JEAN" <JEAN74@TAMPABAY.RR.COM> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 10:06 PM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Eggerland > Aida.May I ask if Haid Tachau is considered in the Eggerland, I know one > of my ancestors was born in Mies, but they later show up in Haid, just > asking > Jean in Fl > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >

Elbogen was the oldest district of the Egerland. This article is by Prof. Zippe. Here are excellent details avalable in the English language. http://home.xnet.com/~ugeiser/Genealogy/Bohemia/overview.html Here are more individual areas where you may find your ancestors villages. These listings were compiled by the Austrian Hungarian government and made available in English by Mr. Urs Geiser. Thank you Mr. Geiser! The period of these statistics is prior to the Ausgleich where individual Ethnic groups received more rights to their settlements. The presentation here is pretty much what your ancestors would have experienced before they went to America. If you encounter among the listing of professions the word "fellows" (German "Gesellen") it is the equivalent to "Journeyman." You can see how strong the guilds of professional crafts were in the Egerland. EVERYBODY was trained in one trade or another and this was not a recent development but a historic custom. http://www.gaes.de/e-elbkr.html and click on the city names for maps on this website at different periods in time. Although the text below is not a very good translation it states the legal privileges given to the Egerlanders for their sovereignty and allowing them flat tax rates. Quote: "With the big privileg of 1341, which grants beside the legal sovereignty also an easy flat-rate tax, was the district Elbogen holden under Bohemian fief-highness. This tax privileg and administrative-technical decisions brought about 1652 Joachimsthal, Platten, Gottesgab, Bleistadt, Schlaggenwald, Schönfeld, Lauterbach, Graslitz and Petschau to destrict Elbogen."

For the history of the dominion Asch you may want to read this. http://home.xnet.com/~ugeiser/Genealogy/Bohemia/asch.html Here is a Germanic Primer http://www.kisabeth.com/primer_of_our_ancient.htm History of the Oberpfalz in English http://worldroots.com/gene/reg/BAY/opf-hise.htm Germany and the Hohenstaufen, 1125-1250 > Colonization of the east http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-58107 Article by Dr. Alfred de Zayas on expulsion http://www.meaus.com/Expulsion_of_Germans.html Paste these into a folder and file for reference. Aida

To know where your ancestors came from, you need a good map. To roughly help you find the Egerland you have to have an old German map of the area in the German language, because all villages are listed there with their original names. The Egerland ended South of Mies at Hostau, Muttersdorf, Ronsperg and Bischofteiniz. These are the larger Southernmost villages. It then goes North along the Bavarian Border to Asch, Eger, and East to Graslitz, Neudeck, Gottesgab, Weipert, Kaaden, Saaz, Postelberg. In the East is the border between Czech and German language speaking areas, and goes from Saaz and Podersam South to Kriegern, Jechnitz, Scheles, Rabenstein, Luditz, Manetin, Netschetin, Wscherau, to Tuschkau near Pilsen. There are many other villages in between all of these, so I am just naming the most prominent which you might find on an old map. While the Southern part was always a Bohemian holding, the Egerland belonged to the Bavarian Wittelsbacher. The South-West and South of Bohemia is the older area and was held for centuries by Austrian and later Czech nobles. This will make you understand that the Egerland is a separate area of the Sudetenland. The Egerland alone had 803,000 population. Major Egerlander Cities are: Asch, Eger, Graslitz, Neudek, Kaaden, Saaz, Podersam, Karlsbad, Elbogen, Falkenau. Marienbad, Tepl, Luditz, Plan, Tachau, Mies and Bischofteinitz. Any one of these names should appear on your documents, because they were like a "county seat". I hope that this will help in establishing the correct "title" for your ancestor. Aida

All the above titles means that they are property owners in the Egerland. Perhaps individual nobles had different types of serfs for whom they provided a living space, but that would be for the minority of the Egerland population. So we should not assume that our ancestors were "serfs" but most likely did certain tasks in lieu of paying taxes. I have never encountered this in my own ancestral search, as they are all listed in the Berni Rula as property owners. And they appear in the Berni rula with the various description or titles of Owner, Farmer, Cottager and Gardener. If you walked through a village in Bohemia, you would see that there are as many different sized properties, as you'll find anywhere. The only difference is that the farms are all clustered together into a village and their fields are on the periphery. A farm that stood by itself was usually a "Gut" or a "Hof" and had larger and more buildings, they are very old land holdings. Now here is what I know from researching my own ancestors and at first, my opinion of Häusler and Gardener was just like yours, until I found out that they were actually owners of these places and had to pay taxes. I have several original documents and one ancestor is listed as Bürger und Schuhmacher (burgher and shoemaker) at Petschau and they owned that house and a large garden. There was a castle at Petschau, and I believe that the Beauforts lived there. If anyone offspring of these Nobles reads this, please enlighted us about the status of the common population! There is a Bürger und Uhrmacher (burgher and watchmaker) at the town of Marienbad in my family, and while he himself at the time of his marriage is not listed as Hausbesitzer (Owner), his father owned 3 hotels. There is one Wundarzt (surgeon) at Donawitz and there is no listing that he was either a Burgher or Owner. There is a Häusler" (cottager) at Neumetternich near Marienbad who owned his place and married a "Bauerntochter" (farmer's daughter) from Dürrmaul, they owned a very substantial Tudor "cottage" until they were expelled. There is a "Hausbesitzer" at Schönthal (which was a large village) who owned a "Hof" (large farm) where the family lived until expellation. They were original settlers and mentioned in the Chronic and the Berni Rula. There are several other family members who lived in the Egerland and were given the title "Häusler," but all these were well built stone or brick houses with basement and 2 stories... and were still in the family when they were expelled. What we have to do here is to pay attention to the area where they lived and who administered the area. We have to search and ask: was the land they lived on belonging to a cloister, a noble, a landholding of a nearby City, or very old settlers property. The latter can lead far back, probably to 1100-1300, for which there may be no records. The Catholic Church appears in the 12th century, but somewhat earlier in the Prag and Budweis areas. It would be best to get in touch with the expelled people, who maintain "Heimatstuben" in Germany and request a name list of early settlers of that particular village from their Chronic. Most of the original record keepers have passed on, but there are contact people for the individual villages. Go to a German website.....and www.yahoo.de is a good one, put the German name of your ancestor's village in the URL and see what comes up. Some of them are better than others. I presume that you have checked the Rootsweb first! Do not be too optimistic to get at any of the Chronics! Unfortunately, I must warn you here, that some of these irreplaceable records found their end buried in manure piles because of names recorded there during the Nazi occupation. The person in charge of these documents was most likely a Party member destroying evidence. Had the Czechs found a Chronic in a village where names were recorded who held offices during the Hitler regime, the executions would have hit even more ferociously. So don't place too much hope on finding these. You will be luckiest with those villages closest to the Bavarian Border, because the people hightailed out of there in a hurry, taking the entire village archives along - like the people of Eger, for instance - and in most cases the US occupational Forces provided their transportation. The records of the Berni Rula will show all your ancestors that were propertied it 1651. If your ancestor came from the Budweis and Pilsen area it just might be a little different than the situation in the Egerland because there is a different historical background. The Egerland was not Bohemia originally, it was part of the Oberpfalz, and that was and still is to this day: Bavaria. How to locate the Egerland correctl, that I will put into a different Email. Aida ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven and Susan Karides" <karides@sbcglobal.net> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer > > On May 15, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > A "Bauer" is farmer with a full spread, "Häusler" is most likely a > craftsman operating a smaller farm, "Gardener" is employed elsewhere and > just grows his vegetables and raises small animals around the house he > owns, and a "Hausbesitzer" is a Burgher in a town, a free man > > >> The definition of a "Haeusler" in William E. Wrights "Serf, Seigneur and >> Sovereign..Agararian Reform in Eighteenth-Century Bohemia" is summed up >> in his passage(p 17): " Further peasant ranks included cotters >> (Haeusler) and servants or day laborers (Inleute). These usually held no >> land other than gardens adjacent to their houses. They supported >> themselves and their families by working for their wages or payment in >> kind. Their obligations to the lord were usually considerably fewer than >> those of the land- holding peasants." I had always construed that to >> mean that they did now own any land, including the house in which they >> lived. Is that correct? I have lots of Haeuslers in the 1700s and early >> 1800s. Thanks for all your knowledge that you so unselfishly share! > > Susan > > > >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >> list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// >> archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >> > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? > Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >

On May 15, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: A "Bauer" is farmer with a full spread, "Häusler" is most likely a craftsman operating a smaller farm, "Gardener" is employed elsewhere and just grows his vegetables and raises small animals around the house he owns, and a "Hausbesitzer" is a Burgher in a town, a free man > The definition of a "Haeusler" in William E. Wrights "Serf, > Seigneur and Sovereign..Agararian Reform in Eighteenth-Century > Bohemia" is summed up in his passage(p 17): " Further peasant > ranks included cotters (Haeusler) and servants or day laborers > (Inleute). These usually held no land other than gardens adjacent > to their houses. They supported themselves and their families by > working for their wages or payment in kind. Their obligations to > the lord were usually considerably fewer than those of the land- > holding peasants." I had always construed that to mean that they > did now own any land, including the house in which they lived. Is > that correct? I have lots of Haeuslers in the 1700s and early > 1800s. Thanks for all your knowledge that you so unselfishly share! Susan > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined > the list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// > archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >

Paula, Thank you for forwarding this message. Pam and I have an ancestor named Friedrich. We will need to research the to see if there is a connection. Mary -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Paula Goblirsch" <paulagoblirsch@gmail.com> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Eberhard C. Friedrich > Date: May 16, 2006 11:38 PMSubject: Friedrich - ancient > glassmaking dynasty from Northern BohemiaTo: paulagoblirsch@gmail.com > > > Dear Mrs. Goblirsch, > I found your email adress on the website of the German BohemianHeritage Society. > My family derives from an ancient German Northern Bohemiam family. > Now, after more than 40 years of research, my father Walter Friedrichhas > published a book which might be interresting for some of yoursociety members. > Kind regards from Frankfurt, GermanyEberhard C. Friedrich > ________________________________ > > Friedrich - ancient glassmaking dynasty from Northern > Bohemiahttp://www.glasmacher-friedrich.de/According to the latest archaeological > findings, the Friedrich fromNorthern Bohemia could be the most ancient > glassmaking dynasty in theworld. Ten years after the discovery of America they > founded aglassworks in Oberkreibitz (today: Chøibská) - close to their > originalglassworks in Friedrichsdorf that operated around the year 1250 -which > was to become one of the most important sites of the Renaissanceglass industry. > From there the Friedrich spread throughout Europe andsome went to Northern > America. Now the historian Walter A. Friedrich,a descendant of the medieval > glass-masters, has written acomprehensive chronicle of the Friedrich family and > of the earlyhistory of glass making in Northern Bohemia. (Website and book are > inGerman) > Some information in English on the glassmaker dynasty Friedrich(including an > ancient painting of the family of Martin Friedrich jr.,glass-master of the > German Emperor Rudolf II, from 1596) can be foundon this Czech site: > http://www.luzicke-hory.cz/glass.html#renais > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >

Not too long ago someone on this message board was trying to locate ancestors who had been glassmakers. I don't know if that was ever resolved and what I have quoted below probably doesn't fit the time frame that person was seeking, but I ran across this in a book I am reading, Czechs and Germans, by Elizabeth Wiskemann (Oxford U. Press, 1938): page 171 - "According to the calculations of the Deutscher Hauptverband der Industrie in 1930...Of the glass industry, which is mainly centred in Teplitz-Schonau (Teplice-Sanov), headquarters of the big Muhlig glass concern, and, of course, in Gablonz (Jablonec), it is also worth noting that the number of glass-workers employed sank in 1933 to about 30,000, where in the early post-War years more than 60,000 were kept busy. It is, however, difficult to get unquestioned figures here, since so many glass-workers in the Isergebirge villages to the north of Gablonz work in their homes with their families and are not organized; a great many others work in small workshops. South of Gablonz a considerable number of Czechs are involved in glass-making. The dependence of this town upon world prosperity is also conveyed by the fact that, small though it is, it contains between 500 and 600 exporters, mostly concerned with buttons, beads, and buckles made of some kind of glass." Hope this finds the right person and that it at least reveals where the primary locations for Bohemian glass-making were found. Bob Ullman ullman@easystreet.com

An Austrian researcher living in Linz has offered to translate document scans sent to him at: office@ahnensuche.net or dieter@eichinger.or.at People with ancestral connections in today's Republic of Austria might find Eichinger helpful with grave searches in Vienna and other research projects. Karen

From Rootsweb Review in case listmembers are missing it: Q: My ancestor Florence SCHATTSCHNEIDER doesn't show up in an exact spelling search of the SSDI either at RootsWeb or at Ancestry--why? A: The Social Security Administration limits surnames to 12 letters in the SSDI database and given names to nine letters. Names that exceed those length limits are abbreviated to show only the first 12 and/or nine letters respectively. Therefore, when doing an exact spelling search of the SSDI database for lengthy surnames either at RootsWeb (http://ssdi.rootsweb.com/ ) or at Ancestry, limit your search to the first 12 letters of the surname and nine letters of the given name. In this example, search for SCHATTSCHNEI and the results will be found. NOTE: At the moment deaths beforee `1962 are not yet in the SSDI index. MDs did not have Social Security before the 1960s . Other occupations may also have been excluded (i.e. teachers and goverment workers for two) so they are not in the index. Write to SSA to inquite about records not in the index. http://www.ssa.gov/foia/html/foia_guide.htm

For information about the researchers who will do lookups at the SLC library see: http://www.ancestorseekers.com/ Email and snail mail contact is at: http://www.ancestorseekers.com/about.htm They offer some service free. Fee for other services is $52 per hour. They give a quote on total cost before doing any work. They base the quote on the information a client provides on a library research request form found at their website. $52 per hour may sound expensive but for most projects it will be a lot cheaper than travel to SLC and hotels and meals while there. BE SURE to ask researchers if they have access to films you know are in the library but do not yet appear in the catalog. ALSO ask if they can view RESTRICTED films on your behalf. Many military records that contain some data that is less than 100 years old will not circulate to local FHCs because of that. In some cases it means that a library patron cannot order a film containing data that is as old as 1840 because the same film has something on it that has a year date of 1907 or later. The service of Ancestor Seekers may be especially worthwhile regarding films like that. The Qualifikationslisten der Offiziere (military officers' records) are among the films most apt to be restricted. A researcher may have to view several films while searching for one officer's record. Always try to order a film first. Contact Ancestor Seekers (or other SLC researchers) only after learning the film does not circulate. Other researchers in SLC like Heirlines will do a single item lookup for $100. Bear that in mind if the only thing you want copied is possibly on a restricted film and the proposal from Ancestor Seekers is more than $100. Search the internet with "Heirlines" or "Salt Lake City genealogy research" to find the other services. http://www.ancestorseekers.com/fhlassessment.htm Ancestor Seekers publish a newsletter that sends free updates about their services. Register for the newsletter at: http://www.ancestorseekers.com/newsletter.htm Karen

----- Original Message ----- From: "Paula Goblirsch" <paulagoblirsch@gmail.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:00 AM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fwd: Friedrich - ancient glassmaking dynasty from Northern Bohemia > ---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Eberhard C. Friedrich > <ebfried2000@yahoo.de>Date: May 16, 2006 11:38 PMSubject: Friedrich - > ancient glassmaking dynasty from Northern BohemiaTo: > paulagoblirsch@gmail.com > > > Dear Mrs. Goblirsch, > I found your email adress on the website of the German BohemianHeritage > Society. > My family derives from an ancient German Northern Bohemiam family. > Now, after more than 40 years of research, my father Walter Friedrichhas > published a book which might be interresting for some of yoursociety > members. > Kind regards from Frankfurt, GermanyEberhard C. Friedrich > ________________________________ > > Friedrich - ancient glassmaking dynasty from Northern > Bohemiahttp://www.glasmacher-friedrich.de/According to the latest > archaeological findings, the Friedrich fromNorthern Bohemia could be the > most ancient glassmaking dynasty in theworld. Ten years after the > discovery of America they founded aglassworks in Oberkreibitz (today: > Chřibská) - close to their originalglassworks in Friedrichsdorf that > operated around the year 1250 -which was to become one of the most > important sites of the Renaissanceglass industry. From there the Friedrich > spread throughout Europe andsome went to Northern America. Now the > historian Walter A. Friedrich,a descendant of the medieval glass-masters, > has written acomprehensive chronicle of the Friedrich family and of the > earlyhistory of glass making in Northern Bohemia. (Website and book are > inGerman) > Some information in English on the glassmaker dynasty Friedrich(including > an ancient painting of the family of Martin Friedrich jr.,glass-master of > the German Emperor Rudolf II, from 1596) can be foundon this Czech site: > http://www.luzicke-hory.cz/glass.html#renais > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ Mts GoblirscjL Are your anxestordFrom HAID, AND IF THEY ARE, SRE YOU RELATED TO A wOLFGANG GOBLIRISCH? wE SRE WORKING ON THE FAMILY TREE, AND EXCHANGING INFORMATION. THANK YOU JEAN IN FL >

Yep, just wanted to chime in here too - just read your post Paula and am trying to go thru the various links on that site! Not only do Mary and I have an ancestor named Friedrich.... which connects my maternal line, my own surname is FRIE R DICH ... and am slowly finding out that those two letters were sometimes switched - which a year ago I would have sworn that that was not possible :-)...so...now I'm researching both spelling ... on BOTH sides of my lines! My surname Frierdich seemed to have settled mostly in the beautiful countryside (much like where they came from!) in Columbia or Waterloo Illinois USA - the towns that I have listed for my Johann Frierdich (1753) m. to Barbara Schellhorn was a Diedesheim Bavaria though.... ... so I'm still searching for any spellings such as that in that area. Hopefully I will be able to connect the two since the maternal side of my Friedrich that is married into my Michalek line also settled in the same area in US. So many twists and turns!! ~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ Warrenton, MO http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com Looking for surnames of BANGERT, CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, DIESEL, DILLON, FIELDS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, GOLD, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, KRAFT, MEES/MAES, MENTEL, MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), MITCHELL, PROBST, RAPP, REIS, SCHALLOM, SCHELLHORN, STALEY, STEPPIG, THOELE, WEBER , ----- Original Message ----- From: <mpettyjohn@comcast.net> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:40 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fwd: Friedrich - ancient glassmaking dynasty from Northern Bohemia Paula, Thank you for forwarding this message. Pam and I have an ancestor named Friedrich. We will need to research the to see if there is a connection. Mary -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Paula Goblirsch" <paulagoblirsch@gmail.com> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Eberhard C. Friedrich > Date: May 16, 2006 11:38 PMSubject: Friedrich - ancient > glassmaking dynasty from Northern BohemiaTo: paulagoblirsch@gmail.com > > > Dear Mrs. Goblirsch, > I found your email adress on the website of the German BohemianHeritage > Society. > My family derives from an ancient German Northern Bohemiam family. > Now, after more than 40 years of research, my father Walter Friedrichhas > published a book which might be interresting for some of yoursociety > members. > Kind regards from Frankfurt, GermanyEberhard C. Friedrich > ________________________________ > > Friedrich - ancient glassmaking dynasty from Northern > Bohemiahttp://www.glasmacher-friedrich.de/According to the latest > archaeological > findings, the Friedrich fromNorthern Bohemia could be the most ancient > glassmaking dynasty in theworld. Ten years after the discovery of America > they > founded aglassworks in Oberkreibitz (today: Chøibská) - close to their > originalglassworks in Friedrichsdorf that operated around the year > 1250 -which > was to become one of the most important sites of the Renaissanceglass > industry. > From there the Friedrich spread throughout Europe andsome went to Northern > America. Now the historian Walter A. Friedrich,a descendant of the > medieval > glass-masters, has written acomprehensive chronicle of the Friedrich > family and > of the earlyhistory of glass making in Northern Bohemia. (Website and book > are > inGerman) > Some information in English on the glassmaker dynasty Friedrich(including > an > ancient painting of the family of Martin Friedrich jr.,glass-master of the > German Emperor Rudolf II, from 1596) can be foundon this Czech site: > http://www.luzicke-hory.cz/glass.html#renais > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the list? To search the archives, go to: http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN

For earlier NY arrivals try: www.castlegarden.org Currently the site hosts 10 million records, and support is needed to complete the digitization of the remaining 2 million records, beginning in 1820, from the original ship manifests. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harold Kralik" <hkralik@execpc.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Bremen Ships List > Karen and All; > > The Free Search of the Ellis Island Database is at > http://www.ellisisland.org <http://www.ellisisland.org> > > To view the results, you must register - but registration is free. > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To search the archives, go to: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN >

---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Eberhard C. Friedrich <ebfried2000@yahoo.de>Date: May 16, 2006 11:38 PMSubject: Friedrich - ancient glassmaking dynasty from Northern BohemiaTo: paulagoblirsch@gmail.com Dear Mrs. Goblirsch, I found your email adress on the website of the German BohemianHeritage Society. My family derives from an ancient German Northern Bohemiam family. Now, after more than 40 years of research, my father Walter Friedrichhas published a book which might be interresting for some of yoursociety members. Kind regards from Frankfurt, GermanyEberhard C. Friedrich ________________________________ Friedrich - ancient glassmaking dynasty from Northern Bohemiahttp://www.glasmacher-friedrich.de/According to the latest archaeological findings, the Friedrich fromNorthern Bohemia could be the most ancient glassmaking dynasty in theworld. Ten years after the discovery of America they founded aglassworks in Oberkreibitz (today: Chřibská) - close to their originalglassworks in Friedrichsdorf that operated around the year 1250 -which was to become one of the most important sites of the Renaissanceglass industry. From there the Friedrich spread throughout Europe andsome went to Northern America. Now the historian Walter A. Friedrich,a descendant of the medieval glass-masters, has written acomprehensive chronicle of the Friedrich family and of the earlyhistory of glass making in Northern Bohemia. (Website and book are inGerman) Some information in English on the glassmaker dynasty Friedrich(including an ancient painting of the family of Martin Friedrich jr.,glass-master of the German Emperor Rudolf II, from 1596) can be foundon this Czech site: http://www.luzicke-hory.cz/glass.html#renais

>>Did villages keep two sets of Kirchenbücher (church books) one for military and another for the permanent residents of the village?<< There was a time when pastors were asked to compile a list of men eligible for conscription from the parish records but that ended pretty much after 1870 or so. Around 1870 a conscription commission went around and numbered houses and listed all the eligible men living in them in their own conscription rolls. After that the churches didn't make any special rolls for conscription as far as I know. The Conscription teams after about 1820 were all military -- men already in the local regiment. Each team represented a single company of the regiment. They would visit each village assigned to them and recruit in each one once or twice a year. They would gather anyone the village would let them have or who they decided was a likely recruit. In 1860 a new county conscription commission was set up in each county and they took over recruiting duties -- the army no longer sent company teams out to gather "live bodies." Some of the county archives may have the old conscription rolls maintained by the county commissioners. However I understand that the county archives have now been sent to district archives so all those old civil records of men eligible for the draft may be in each regional archive. Some of them were called "Stellungslisten" but I suspect the Czechs do not have them catloged under that name unless it is a "secondary" title for a Czech name. They are not kept as military records. They are consider an civil documejnt. Karen

There is a German translation group at Yahoo. You can join via links at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~deutg/ You can joing the transcribe group via links at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~deutg/ You have to join these groups to use the service. Documents sent for transcription / translation are kept on their servers but I don't know if there is a big archive of them. Join and surf the websites of both groups to see what documents are there and if the translations are also there. The samples may help your own research. Karen

Free translationhs of old German documents at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/transcribe/ If the link won't work go to: http://dir.groups.yahoo.com/dir/ Click on Schools and Education On the next page type: Transcribe On the next page do down to : Transcribe and click on it. Karen