Jean, Did you get the photo of Haid Tracht I sent you"? Karen

Aida: This man Karl Schacher is an other brickwall he is my 2g-grandfather married Anna Catherine Zickler , daughter of Mathias Zickler and Josefa Wammes in Haid July 11, 1804, I can't find any thing on him at all. Any suggestions. Jean in Fl

Schacher is a German name and Haid is close to Bavaria, so he might have come from there. The earliest Schacher name (the old German meaning is a forested isle within a meadow or swamp) stems from the Lake Constance area. One side of the Lake is Bavaria, the other Switzerland. So yes, he could have been from a Bavarian family. If you can find Anna Katarina Zickler's entry in the marriage register that would be the best bet to find info on her groom Karl Schacher. Weddings were usually in the brides' villages, so you may find an entry by the priest in the Haid church register listing both their parentages and location and then you have a lead document for Karl Schacher. This probably would be a task at the time when you hire a researcher in Pilsen. Make yourself a note of what you want the researcher to do for you. I would ask him to screen the Haid wedding register for her wedding from 1820 to 1830. He will certainly need the information you posted below! Everytime you ask someone to do research for you, give them the data you have and request the data you need, because one is based on the other. Aida -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "JEAN" <JEAN74@TAMPABAY.RR.COM> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 4:44 PM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] SCHACHER > Aida: This man Karl Schacher is an other brickwall he is my 2g-grandfather > married Anna Catherine Zickler , daughter of Mathias Zickler and Josefa > Wammes in Haid July 11, 1804, I can't find any thing on him at all. Any > suggestions. > Jean in Fl > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To search the archives, go to: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN >

In a message dated 5/18/2006 6:17:19 PM Mountain Standard Time, hwhitemc@msn.com writes: In the LDH search, I find Schrameks in Moravia. What LDS search did your use? Is that the one you can make with surnames on the LDS home page? Or are you referring to a film? If you have not ordered and searched the film: Ansidelerakten for Bohemia and Moravia to Galicia / Bukovina you need to do that next. If you have seen that film and the only Schramkes you found were from Moravia I might pursue that a little more....maybe look at the church records and see the names of those family members before they went to Bukowina if possible. Moravia being a part of the crownland of Bohemia (or kingdom of Bohemia) may mean that Moravians who went to Bukowina were designated as being from Bohemia by their descendants. Karen

In a message dated 5/18/2006 8:21:39 PM Mountain Standard Time, sando1@cox.net writes: Where exactly is the Sudetenland? Is it the Czech Republic now? List member should learn to search the internet to answer general historical questions. Search with: Sudetenland Explore the hits and you will find a map showing the area and learn what it means. Karen

Aida Kraus wrote: > > I have been to the Family Research Center today to order more microfilms and I found out that they have increased the cost. It is now $6.00 per roll instead of $3.50, due to higher shipping costs. > Just passing on this information. > Aida ******** Hello Aida, LDS FHL's microfilm rental fee changed about six months ago. In the US, the minimum rental price is $5.50/roll. Each Center can however set their own fee. For example, in the Washington DC FHC the price is $5.50 per roll and the Center sells a post card for $0.25 if a patron wants notification about the films arrival at the Center (i.e. the Center doesn't call or send out e-mails to a patron that rented a film). ______ Lavrentiy Krupniak

I have been to the Family Research Center today to order more microfilms and I found out that they have increased the cost. It is now $6.00 per roll instead of $3.50, due to higher shipping costs. Just passing on this information. Aida

Where exactly is the Sudetenland? Is it the Czech Republic now? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Helen" <hwhitemc@msn.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 5:20 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Sudeten dialects Karen,.....Thank you. My gr mother (1862-1939 Bukovina), spoke "low" German. Her bible was in regular German. Her surname SCHRAMEK, and I know her roots were in Bohemia, but I have not been able to get back the 1700-1800 generational connection. In the LDH search, I find Schrameks in Moravia. Can you with your experience make any suggestions from the facts I have given you? I think I'm still too short of information Any ideas? Many Thanks, Helen ----- Original Message ----- From: <KarenHob@aol.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:54 PM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Sudeten dialects > In a message dated 5/17/2006 10:15:28 PM Mountain Standard Time, > akibb1@verizon.net writes: > If you visit there, go to > an Inn "Gasthof" in the evening when the local folks come for a drink of > beer and play cards..... and then sit quietly in a corner and LISTEN!!! > My German cousins speak Egerländer dialect. It is different from modern > Bavarian dialects -- sort of sing-song. If you have heard people > speaking > Yiddish it has sort of that same sing-song to it. It always sounds like > a "party > in progress" IMO. I can't imagine how that "music" can express anger or > frustration!! > > The dialectical marks used when writing Egerland dialect are not only > umlauts. There are other marks that denote a specific sound that is not > found in > modern German. > > A Schöne Mächecn in Egerland dialect souns sort of like Shayneh Maydl with > some emphasis on the "a" sounds. > > There is a Egerländisch dictionary somewhere on line somewhere - it may be > a > work in progress. It is dialact - German. The Egerland newsletter > also > has a few more pages of their on-going work to produce a dictionary in > each > edition. At least they used to. The GBHS library has an older small > dictionary of dialect to German. It is helpful but it may not have all > the words in > it that have been collected by other sources since it was published. > > Dialects of other Sudeton parts of Bohemia are different from > Egerländisch. > They depend on the influences brought there by early settlers from Saxon > and > Frankish homes in early Germany with some mix from local peoples already > living there or moving there at the same time (like from Silesia or from > Austria). > > > There is a dictionary of German dialects being developed by German > scholars. > It is expected to be from 16-20 volumes by the time it is finished. > I saw the first volume for the letter "A" at a Heimat Treffen in Nurnburg > in > 1997. I understand that there are a few US Universities that will > eventually have all of the books. Georgetown University is one of them. > > They will probably cost about $100-200 per volume and the price is > probably > prohibitive for most genealogical libraries in the US. I also doubt that > they > will be available for interlibrary loan from the collegiat institutions > that > hold them. > > They are probably the only resource that would help to translate ANY > Sudeten > dialect as well as other German dialects from Eastern Europe, Austria, > Hungary > and other areas settled by Germans during the last several centuries. > (Many > remaining "outland" German populations have been repatriated when possible > because of massacres and suppression following WW II.) > > I found that there are always articles in dialect in Hemat newsletters -- > especially in the older editions. The Jeschken-Iser Jahrbuch was alomst > 1/2 > narratives in dialect. > > It is a shame that the dictionaries will be so hard to come by for those > who > want to know more about Sudeten dialects. > > I don't know if they will also include Swiss dialects which include > Alemannisch, Baseldeutsch, Bernedeutsch and Zurichdeutsch. > See http://www.ex.ac.uk/~pjoyce/dialects/obschwyz.html > for ancestral Swiss dialects. > > There is some information about German didlects at: > http://members.tripod.com/~rjschellen/Dialinks.htm > Scroll down to find it. > > On the page: > http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~naeser/dsa-hist.htm > > there are phrases to compare. At the bottom of the page > there is: Ich will es auch nicht mehr wieder tun. > (I'll never do that again.) > At the bottom of the list of dialects there is: > > > WI1 I wüls a inimma tuan. > WI3 I wülls a nimmermehr tuan. > WI20 I wir_s a nimma wieda tuan. > > Those look like Sudeten dialects without typical diacritical marks. > I cannot tell from the page if the spelling is supposed to be phonetic for > pronuciation. It looks a lot like dialect spelling I have seen. > > BTW, when I was last in New Ulm for the SGAS conference, there were a lot > of > German professors and scholars there. The GBHS put on a show of folk > culture and the people who could still speak the dialect their ancestors > brought to > New Ulm (from the Bishofteinetz and Taus borderlands -- not really > Egerländer > and not exactly Bohemian Forest dialect. I heard some Germans at the > table > next to me say that they didn't understand one word. They were guessing > it > was "some kind of Bayerische". > > I understand that at least one GBHS member is trying to compile a > dictionary > of his dialect and to preserve recordings from those in the area who still > speak it. > > Lets hope he is able to complete that work!!! > > Karen > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To search the archives, go to: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the list? To browse the archives, go to: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/

Hi Pam, My Goetz info: My G-Grandmother born Theresia Goetz (b. 1853 @ Eberslfeld, Kries \Falkenau; married Simon Muehlhans 1872 @ Goldorf, Falkenau). Her parents: Josef Goetz (b. 1827 @ Albernhof; married Elizabeth Mayer from Schoenbrunn in 1852 @ Ebersfeld; he died ca. 1872 or 1879 @ Ebersfeld No. 18). Josef Goetz's parents: Anton Goetz (b. 1799 @ Hoofen No, 18---I can't find this place; think it was written incorrectly--/married to Johanna Lill from Bernau. in 1823 @ Bernau No. 16). Anton Goetz's parents: Johann Georg Goetz (1761-1786) and Magdalena Schneider. Johann Georg Goetz's parents: Johann Goerg Goetz and Marie Elisabeth (no vital dates for them; they were listed in the marriage record of their son). Of the Goetz family, Theresia Goetz Muehlhans stayed in the homeland. Her brother, Anton Goetz came to Milwaukee and owned a coal and fuel company (wife was Katherine and a daughter called Molly; she had no children). My grandfather (Theresia's son), Josef Muehlhans, from Golddorf, came here in 1903. Good luck on your search! Susan Muehlhans-Karides On May 18, 2006, at 7:34 AM, Pam wrote: > just looking at your surnames...I have a Charlie Goetz m to Martha > Margareta > Catherina Lindhorst (no dates for the Charlie, but Martha is > 1871-1898; no > other info on Goetz, but Martha's parents were Rudolph Lindhorst > (1837-1927) > m. to Maria Margaretta Hartwig (1846-1922) both from Prussia > Germany - no > further info going back there either. > > Don't have Theisinger - but do have Thies, Thiess, Theisen, Theissen, > Thessen, Thoenen, Thielan, Thiebing; > > Don't have Mayer but do have Mauer's > > probably not related - but I'm always checking each sigline! :-) > > have a good day > > ~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ > Warrenton, MO > http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com > http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com > Looking for surnames of BANGERT, CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, DIESEL, DILLON, > FIELDS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, GOLD, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, KRAFT, > MEES/MAES, > MENTEL, MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), MITCHELL, PROBST, RAPP, REIS, > SCHALLOM, > SCHELLHORN, STALEY, STEPPIG, THOELE, WEBER > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven and Susan Karides" <karides@sbcglobal.net> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 9:58 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: > Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer > > > Thank you, Aida for all your valuable information. I've, in fact been > to all of my ancestral villages (not much remaining, there!), have > Heimatbuecher for the villages and am still in contact and frequently > visit my dad's cousins who went from the Egerland to Bavaria at the > time of the expulsion. I've got my research rather far back on my > main surname lines, but because I was under the incorrect assumption > that they were not landowners, never endeavored to research the Berni > Rula (will have to check the archives to find out how!), although > have read what I think you refer to as the Chronik (am I correct to > think of that as the Chronik of the Kreis such as that one I have > "Falkenau, Stadt und Land"? I've just always been told by the > "oldtimers" in the family in Bavaria (some who are involved in the > Heimatstuben) that my names (main ones are Muehlhans and > Theisinger) are very old Egerlaender names that "go way back" (no > one can ever tell me how far back, though!). So, perhaps a new > direction for research I thought I had finished a long time ago!! > Thanks. again, for all your insight. You help a great number of > people. > > Since I have not posted my surnames for ages, I will list the main > ones: MUEHLHANS/GOETZ/THEISINGER/KNOEBL/KUEHNL/BRANDL/MAYER/GUETTER/ > ERTL all in Kreis Falkenau a.d. Eger (Theisinger relocated to > Karlsbad in 1920s). > Susan > On May 17, 2006, at 6:33 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > >> >> All the above titles means that they are property owners in the >> Egerland. Perhaps individual nobles had different types of serfs >> for whom they provided a living space, but that would be for the >> minority of the Egerland population. So we should not assume that >> our ancestors were "serfs" but most likely did certain tasks in >> lieu of paying taxes. I have never encountered this in my own >> ancestral search, as they are all listed in the Berni Rula as >> property owners. And they appear in the Berni rula with the >> various description or titles of Owner, Farmer, Cottager and >> Gardener. >> If you walked through a village in Bohemia, you would see that >> there are as many different sized properties, as you'll find >> anywhere. The only difference is that the farms are all clustered >> together into a village and their fields are on the periphery. A >> farm that stood by itself was usually a "Gut" or a "Hof" and had >> larger and more buildings, they are very old land holdings. >> Now here is what I know from researching my own ancestors and >> at first, my opinion of Häusler and Gardener was just like yours, >> until I found out that they were actually owners of these places >> and had to pay taxes. I have several original documents and one >> ancestor is listed as Bürger und Schuhmacher (burgher and >> shoemaker) at Petschau and they owned that house and a large >> garden. There was a castle at Petschau, and I believe that the >> Beauforts lived there. If anyone offspring of these Nobles reads >> this, please enlighted us about the status of the common population! >> There is a Bürger und Uhrmacher (burgher and watchmaker) at the >> town of Marienbad in my family, and while he himself at the time of >> his marriage is not listed as Hausbesitzer (Owner), his father >> owned 3 hotels. There is one Wundarzt (surgeon) at Donawitz and >> there is no listing that he was either a Burgher or Owner. There >> is a Häusler" (cottager) at Neumetternich near Marienbad who owned >> his place and married a "Bauerntochter" (farmer's daughter) from >> Dürrmaul, they owned a very substantial Tudor "cottage" until they >> were expelled. There is a "Hausbesitzer" at Schönthal (which was a >> large village) who owned a "Hof" (large farm) where the family >> lived until expellation. They were original settlers and mentioned >> in the Chronic and the Berni Rula. There are several other family >> members who lived in the Egerland and were given the title >> "Häusler," but all these were well built stone or brick houses >> with basement and 2 stories... and were still in the family when >> they were expelled. >> What we have to do here is to pay attention to the area where >> they lived and who administered the area. We have to search and >> ask: was the land they lived on belonging to a cloister, a noble, a >> landholding of a nearby City, or very old settlers property. The >> latter can lead far back, probably to 1100-1300, for which there >> may be no records. The Catholic Church appears in the 12th >> century, but somewhat earlier in the Prag and Budweis areas. It >> would be best to get in touch with the expelled people, who >> maintain "Heimatstuben" in Germany and request a name list of early >> settlers of that particular village from their Chronic. Most of >> the original record keepers have passed on, but there are contact >> people for the individual villages. Go to a German >> website.....and www.yahoo.de is a good one, put the German name of >> your ancestor's village in the URL and see what comes up. Some of >> them are better than others. I presume that you have checked the >> Rootsweb first! >> Do not be too optimistic to get at any of the Chronics! >> Unfortunately, I must warn you here, that some of these >> irreplaceable records found their end buried in manure piles >> because of names recorded there during the Nazi occupation. The >> person in charge of these documents was most likely a Party member >> destroying evidence. Had the Czechs found a Chronic in a village >> where names were recorded who held offices during the Hitler >> regime, the executions would have hit even more ferociously. So >> don't place too much hope on finding these. You will be luckiest >> with those villages closest to the Bavarian Border, because the >> people hightailed out of there in a hurry, taking the entire >> village archives along - like the people of Eger, for instance - >> and in most cases the US occupational Forces provided their >> transportation. >> The records of the Berni Rula will show all your ancestors that >> were propertied it 1651. >> If your ancestor came from the Budweis and Pilsen area it just >> might be a little different than the situation in the Egerland >> because there is a different historical background. The Egerland >> was not Bohemia originally, it was part of the Oberpfalz, and that >> was and still is to this day: Bavaria. >> How to locate the Egerland correctl, that I will put into a >> different Email. >> Aida >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven and Susan Karides" >> <karides@sbcglobal.net> >> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:45 PM >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer >> >> >>> >>> On May 15, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: >>> >>> A "Bauer" is farmer with a full spread, "Häusler" is most >>> likely a craftsman operating a smaller farm, "Gardener" is >>> employed elsewhere and just grows his vegetables and raises small >>> animals around the house he owns, and a "Hausbesitzer" is a >>> Burgher in a town, a free man >>> >>> >>>> The definition of a "Haeusler" in William E. Wrights "Serf, >>>> Seigneur and Sovereign..Agararian Reform in Eighteenth-Century >>>> Bohemia" is summed up in his passage(p 17): " Further peasant >>>> ranks included cotters (Haeusler) and servants or day laborers >>>> (Inleute). These usually held no land other than gardens >>>> adjacent to their houses. They supported themselves and their >>>> families by working for their wages or payment in kind. Their >>>> obligations to the lord were usually considerably fewer than >>>> those of the land- holding peasants." I had always construed >>>> that to mean that they did now own any land, including the house >>>> in which they lived. Is that correct? I have lots of Haeuslers >>>> in the 1700s and early 1800s. Thanks for all your knowledge that >>>> you so unselfishly share! >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> >>> >>>> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>>> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you >>>> joined the list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// >>>> archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>> Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? >>> Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined >> the list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// >> archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >> > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined > the list? To search the archives, go to: http:// > listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN >

Wow, thank you! I didn't have any info on the meaning of my surnames. An interesting story on the Muehlhans name, however. Some years ago (about 10) I wrote to every Muehlhans listed in the German White Pages. Owing to the fact that many were related to eachother, I received a response from virtually every family I wrote to!! All stemmed from the Egerland. As I recall, all stemmed from Kreis Falkenau. A couple of them told me that Muehlhans was an Egerlaender name and, in their opinion, anyone with that surname has his roots in the Egerland. It is an extremely rare name in the US (some changed it to Milhans) and isn't even that common in Germany. They were all from the Golddorf/Steinhof/Maria Kulm area. As for my Karlsbader Theisingers, my grandmother was Marie Theisinger ( b. 1898/ to America (Milwaukee) in 1921/d.1943 before I was born). She was born at Ebmeth No. 28, but the family relocated to Karlsbad. My grandmother trained as a cook in Karlsbad. Her father was Andreas Theisinger (b. 1870 @ Schoenbrunn No. 24; died @ Fischern, by Karlsbad after WWI in 1918) and her mother was Emilie Knobl Theisinger (b. 1870 @ Ebmeth No. 1/died 1943 @ Welchau). Emilie Knobl's family had the Gastwirtschaft Knobl at Ebmeth No. 1. I have a picture of it, but was at the exact site and now it's just an asphalt parking lot to a Communist era tenement. My grandmotehr was the only Theisinger of her fanily to emigrate; The rest remained and suffered the expulsion. The all relocated to Bavaria (most stayed there; some later moved to other parts of Germany). My grandmother, Marie, had a sister Anna Theisinger Beitlich (b. 1906 @ Ebmeth/died 1988 @ Munich and her husband Emil who lived until 1996!) and brothers Anton Theisinger (b. 1903 @ Ebmeth/died single @ Nuenburg in 1980) and Josef Theisinger (b. 1895 at Frohnau/ married to Julia/died @ Marburg, Hessen in 1970). Josef and Julia had a son, Kurt Theisinger, born in the 1920s (my dad's first cousin). Kurt lived in Marktredwitz (lovely town!) and was very active in the Heimat Museum there until his death in 2000. I have heard the dialect spoken and don 't understand a word of it! Anyone sound familiar? Oh, by the way. Since the 1990s, I believe, there is a restaurant in Karlsbad called the Egerlaender Hof. It is run by the Kraus family. We visited there as a large group (my dad and his cousins including his mother's sisters children, as well as Kurt Theisinger) in 1997; again in 1999 and just last August. They have large books that they have former residents of the Egerland and their families sign, including a short memory and where the family had lived. They only brought them out when Kurt asked for them. There were several books full of memories, names and places and they even let the "Egerlaender aus Amerika" sign them!! Kurt spoke of the homeland often; the others not so much, because, I believe for them the memories are painful. So, I don't push it anymore and take whatever info they want to give me; little bits here and there. I do love visiting them, though. I am always astonished at how much we look like each other! I had never met my grandmother, but they look like her and I look like them. Genetics are amazing! So, once again thank you for your detailed tips and knowledge. I learn from every one of your postings! Susan On May 18, 2006, at 12:02 AM, Aida Kraus wrote: > You sure are a bona fide old time Egerlander according to your > ancestral names and these cannot be traced back because they were > there ALL THE TIME! I might even know your Karlsbader Theisingers, > or at least my parents did with certainty. > Re.Chronik.... yes some of it you can abstract in the general > form from the Kreis Chronik, but you will have to go to the Village > itself to find the individuals that lived there. Many times they > are revealed as village elders (and with your Egerlander names I am > quite sure you will find them there) . And I am also sure that you > will find most all of them in the Berni Rula, just as I did, which > is an alphabetical listing, but be very "creative" as to spelling! > It can be requested on an interlibrary loan and if you scroll back > a few days you will find my posting of its source. It is good to > copy and paste all these information on into a "research > folder" ... you never know when you will need them. > Aida > > Theisinger: Cuno von Theising is recorded 1295 at Salzburg, > another branch called Theisinger were in Bohemia and Bavaria. > There is also a village in the Egerland called Theusing. > Götz: you can hardly get more Egerländerisch than this!!! The > best pastry shop in Karlsbad was Götzl (a smaller version of Götz= > Gottfried), also listed as Goczel at Prague and Breslau in 1389. > Kühnl: "kühn" means brave. Written as Kühndl at Iglau in 1391, > spelled Kiendl in Austria, Kühnl in Unterfranken, Bavaria > Mühlhans, Meyer are too generell for all of Germany and therefore > very hard to place! > Guetter may be Allemanni(different German tribe from Marcomanni to > the East) written as Güder in Switzerland where it means > "spendthrift" or "wastrel" shows up in 1278 at Pullendorf and 1438 > at Heidelberg. > Brandl and Brandt comes from Hildebrandt (legendary figure) who was > the swordmaker (weapon-smith) for Dietrich v. Bern, read the > Nibelungen Lied! Elevated status W. (?) de Brant 1280 at Zürich, > 1289 at Württemberg, Brant Klobelauch 1493 at Frankfurt, Sebastian > Brant, poet, 1500. I went to school with 2 Brandls at Karlsbad . > Knoebl: probably from either Saxon or Bavarian area where they > show as Knöfel. In old high German it is written as "Knöufel" and > means "Knopf" which is a button. A button maker most likely. Shows > up in 1549 at Leipzig, just North of the Egerland beyond the Ore > Mountains. > > > > ------------------------------------- > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven and Susan Karides" > <karides@sbcglobal.net> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:58 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner- > Häusler-Hausbesitzer > > >> Thank you, Aida for all your valuable information. I've, in fact >> been to all of my ancestral villages (not much remaining, >> there!), have Heimatbuecher for the villages and am still in >> contact and frequently visit my dad's cousins who went from the >> Egerland to Bavaria at the time of the expulsion. I've got my >> research rather far back on my main surname lines, but because I >> was under the incorrect assumption that they were not landowners, >> never endeavored to research the Berni Rula (will have to check >> the archives to find out how!), although have read what I think >> you refer to as the Chronik (am I correct to think of that as the >> Chronik of the Kreis such as that one I have "Falkenau, Stadt und >> Land"? I've just always been told by the "oldtimers" in the >> family in Bavaria (some who are involved in the Heimatstuben) >> that my names (main ones are Muehlhans and Theisinger) are very >> old Egerlaender names that "go way back" (no one can ever tell me >> how far back, though!). So, perhaps a new direction for research >> I thought I had finished a long time ago!! Thanks. again, for >> all your insight. You help a great number of people. >> >> Since I have not posted my surnames for ages, I will list the >> main ones: MUEHLHANS/GOETZ/THEISINGER/KNOEBL/KUEHNL/BRANDL/MAYER/ >> GUETTER/ ERTL all in Kreis Falkenau a.d. Eger (Theisinger >> relocated to Karlsbad in 1920s). >> Susan >> On May 17, 2006, at 6:33 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: >> >>> >>> All the above titles means that they are property owners in the >>> Egerland. Perhaps individual nobles had different types of serfs >>> for whom they provided a living space, but that would be for the >>> minority of the Egerland population. So we should not assume >>> that our ancestors were "serfs" but most likely did certain >>> tasks in lieu of paying taxes. I have never encountered this in >>> my own ancestral search, as they are all listed in the Berni >>> Rula as property owners. And they appear in the Berni rula >>> with the various description or titles of Owner, Farmer, >>> Cottager and Gardener. >>> If you walked through a village in Bohemia, you would see >>> that there are as many different sized properties, as you'll >>> find anywhere. The only difference is that the farms are all >>> clustered together into a village and their fields are on the >>> periphery. A farm that stood by itself was usually a "Gut" or a >>> "Hof" and had larger and more buildings, they are very old land >>> holdings. >>> Now here is what I know from researching my own ancestors >>> and at first, my opinion of Häusler and Gardener was just like >>> yours, until I found out that they were actually owners of these >>> places and had to pay taxes. I have several original documents >>> and one ancestor is listed as Bürger und Schuhmacher (burgher >>> and shoemaker) at Petschau and they owned that house and a >>> large garden. There was a castle at Petschau, and I believe that >>> the Beauforts lived there. If anyone offspring of these Nobles >>> reads this, please enlighted us about the status of the common >>> population! >>> There is a Bürger und Uhrmacher (burgher and watchmaker) at >>> the town of Marienbad in my family, and while he himself at the >>> time of his marriage is not listed as Hausbesitzer (Owner), his >>> father owned 3 hotels. There is one Wundarzt (surgeon) at >>> Donawitz and there is no listing that he was either a Burgher or >>> Owner. There is a Häusler" (cottager) at Neumetternich near >>> Marienbad who owned his place and married a >>> "Bauerntochter" (farmer's daughter) from Dürrmaul, they owned a >>> very substantial Tudor "cottage" until they were expelled. >>> There is a "Hausbesitzer" at Schönthal (which was a large >>> village) who owned a "Hof" (large farm) where the family lived >>> until expellation. They were original settlers and mentioned in >>> the Chronic and the Berni Rula. There are several other family >>> members who lived in the Egerland and were given the title >>> "Häusler," but all these were well built stone or brick houses >>> with basement and 2 stories... and were still in the family when >>> they were expelled. >>> What we have to do here is to pay attention to the area >>> where they lived and who administered the area. We have to >>> search and ask: was the land they lived on belonging to a >>> cloister, a noble, a landholding of a nearby City, or very old >>> settlers property. The latter can lead far back, probably to >>> 1100-1300, for which there may be no records. The Catholic >>> Church appears in the 12th century, but somewhat earlier in the >>> Prag and Budweis areas. It would be best to get in touch with >>> the expelled people, who maintain "Heimatstuben" in Germany and >>> request a name list of early settlers of that particular village >>> from their Chronic. Most of the original record keepers have >>> passed on, but there are contact people for the individual >>> villages. Go to a German website.....and www.yahoo.de is a good >>> one, put the German name of your ancestor's village in the URL >>> and see what comes up. Some of them are better than others. I >>> presume that you have checked the Rootsweb first! >>> Do not be too optimistic to get at any of the Chronics! >>> Unfortunately, I must warn you here, that some of these >>> irreplaceable records found their end buried in manure piles >>> because of names recorded there during the Nazi occupation. The >>> person in charge of these documents was most likely a Party >>> member destroying evidence. Had the Czechs found a Chronic in a >>> village where names were recorded who held offices during the >>> Hitler regime, the executions would have hit even more >>> ferociously. So don't place too much hope on finding these. You >>> will be luckiest with those villages closest to the Bavarian >>> Border, because the people hightailed out of there in a hurry, >>> taking the entire village archives along - like the people of >>> Eger, for instance - and in most cases the US occupational >>> Forces provided their transportation. >>> The records of the Berni Rula will show all your ancestors >>> that were propertied it 1651. >>> If your ancestor came from the Budweis and Pilsen area it >>> just might be a little different than the situation in the >>> Egerland because there is a different historical background. >>> The Egerland was not Bohemia originally, it was part of the >>> Oberpfalz, and that was and still is to this day: Bavaria. >>> How to locate the Egerland correctl, that I will put into a >>> different Email. >>> Aida >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven and Susan Karides" >>> <karides@sbcglobal.net> >>> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:45 PM >>> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer >>> >>> >>>> >>>> On May 15, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: >>>> >>>> A "Bauer" is farmer with a full spread, "Häusler" is most >>>> likely a craftsman operating a smaller farm, "Gardener" is >>>> employed elsewhere and just grows his vegetables and raises >>>> small animals around the house he owns, and a "Hausbesitzer" >>>> is a Burgher in a town, a free man >>>> >>>> >>>>> The definition of a "Haeusler" in William E. Wrights "Serf, >>>>> Seigneur and Sovereign..Agararian Reform in Eighteenth- >>>>> Century Bohemia" is summed up in his passage(p 17): " >>>>> Further peasant ranks included cotters (Haeusler) and >>>>> servants or day laborers (Inleute). These usually held no >>>>> land other than gardens adjacent to their houses. They >>>>> supported themselves and their families by working for their >>>>> wages or payment in kind. Their obligations to the lord were >>>>> usually considerably fewer than those of the land- holding >>>>> peasants." I had always construed that to mean that they did >>>>> now own any land, including the house in which they lived. Is >>>>> that correct? I have lots of Haeuslers in the 1700s and early >>>>> 1800s. Thanks for all your knowledge that you so unselfishly >>>>> share! >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>>>> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you >>>>> joined the list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// >>>>> archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>>> Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? >>>> Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >>> >>> >>> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you >>> joined the list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// >>> archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >>> >> >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined > the list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// > archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >

I would like to thank Karen and Aida for their help . it's giving a new look at my family tree. I will check Bavaria for the origin of the Horl family, I did not realize that Haid was that close to the border. Again thank you to everyone on this list for all their help and encouragement. Jean in Fl

Karen,.....Thank you. My gr mother (1862-1939 Bukovina), spoke "low" German. Her bible was in regular German. Her surname SCHRAMEK, and I know her roots were in Bohemia, but I have not been able to get back the 1700-1800 generational connection. In the LDH search, I find Schrameks in Moravia. Can you with your experience make any suggestions from the facts I have given you? I think I'm still too short of information Any ideas? Many Thanks, Helen ----- Original Message ----- From: <KarenHob@aol.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:54 PM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Sudeten dialects > In a message dated 5/17/2006 10:15:28 PM Mountain Standard Time, > akibb1@verizon.net writes: > If you visit there, go to > an Inn "Gasthof" in the evening when the local folks come for a drink of > beer and play cards..... and then sit quietly in a corner and LISTEN!!! > My German cousins speak Egerländer dialect. It is different from modern > Bavarian dialects -- sort of sing-song. If you have heard people speaking > Yiddish it has sort of that same sing-song to it. It always sounds like a "party > in progress" IMO. I can't imagine how that "music" can express anger or > frustration!! > > The dialectical marks used when writing Egerland dialect are not only > umlauts. There are other marks that denote a specific sound that is not found in > modern German. > > A Schöne Mächecn in Egerland dialect souns sort of like Shayneh Maydl with > some emphasis on the "a" sounds. > > There is a Egerländisch dictionary somewhere on line somewhere - it may be a > work in progress. It is dialact - German. The Egerland newsletter also > has a few more pages of their on-going work to produce a dictionary in each > edition. At least they used to. The GBHS library has an older small > dictionary of dialect to German. It is helpful but it may not have all the words in > it that have been collected by other sources since it was published. > > Dialects of other Sudeton parts of Bohemia are different from Egerländisch. > They depend on the influences brought there by early settlers from Saxon and > Frankish homes in early Germany with some mix from local peoples already > living there or moving there at the same time (like from Silesia or from Austria). > > > There is a dictionary of German dialects being developed by German scholars. > It is expected to be from 16-20 volumes by the time it is finished. > I saw the first volume for the letter "A" at a Heimat Treffen in Nurnburg in > 1997. I understand that there are a few US Universities that will > eventually have all of the books. Georgetown University is one of them. > > They will probably cost about $100-200 per volume and the price is probably > prohibitive for most genealogical libraries in the US. I also doubt that they > will be available for interlibrary loan from the collegiat institutions that > hold them. > > They are probably the only resource that would help to translate ANY Sudeten > dialect as well as other German dialects from Eastern Europe, Austria, Hungary > and other areas settled by Germans during the last several centuries. (Many > remaining "outland" German populations have been repatriated when possible > because of massacres and suppression following WW II.) > > I found that there are always articles in dialect in Hemat newsletters -- > especially in the older editions. The Jeschken-Iser Jahrbuch was alomst 1/2 > narratives in dialect. > > It is a shame that the dictionaries will be so hard to come by for those who > want to know more about Sudeten dialects. > > I don't know if they will also include Swiss dialects which include > Alemannisch, Baseldeutsch, Bernedeutsch and Zurichdeutsch. > See http://www.ex.ac.uk/~pjoyce/dialects/obschwyz.html > for ancestral Swiss dialects. > > There is some information about German didlects at: > http://members.tripod.com/~rjschellen/Dialinks.htm > Scroll down to find it. > > On the page: > http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~naeser/dsa-hist.htm > > there are phrases to compare. At the bottom of the page > there is: Ich will es auch nicht mehr wieder tun. > (I'll never do that again.) > At the bottom of the list of dialects there is: > > > WI1 I wüls a inimma tuan. > WI3 I wülls a nimmermehr tuan. > WI20 I wir_s a nimma wieda tuan. > > Those look like Sudeten dialects without typical diacritical marks. > I cannot tell from the page if the spelling is supposed to be phonetic for > pronuciation. It looks a lot like dialect spelling I have seen. > > BTW, when I was last in New Ulm for the SGAS conference, there were a lot of > German professors and scholars there. The GBHS put on a show of folk > culture and the people who could still speak the dialect their ancestors brought to > New Ulm (from the Bishofteinetz and Taus borderlands -- not really Egerländer > and not exactly Bohemian Forest dialect. I heard some Germans at the table > next to me say that they didn't understand one word. They were guessing it > was "some kind of Bayerische". > > I understand that at least one GBHS member is trying to compile a dictionary > of his dialect and to preserve recordings from those in the area who still > speak it. > > Lets hope he is able to complete that work!!! > > Karen > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the list? To search the archives, go to: http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN > >

You can read about how Google's project to put 5 complete research libraries on line is working at: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/14/magazine/14publishing.html?_r=1&pagewanted=1 &oref=slogin There are rooms full of special scanners and workers doing the digitization from hard copies. There is still resistance, mostly from publishers and the academic community but Google has not stopped the project. Karen

In a message dated 5/17/2006 10:15:28 PM Mountain Standard Time, akibb1@verizon.net writes: If you visit there, go to an Inn "Gasthof" in the evening when the local folks come for a drink of beer and play cards..... and then sit quietly in a corner and LISTEN!!! My German cousins speak Egerländer dialect. It is different from modern Bavarian dialects -- sort of sing-song. If you have heard people speaking Yiddish it has sort of that same sing-song to it. It always sounds like a "party in progress" IMO. I can't imagine how that "music" can express anger or frustration!! The dialectical marks used when writing Egerland dialect are not only umlauts. There are other marks that denote a specific sound that is not found in modern German. A Schöne Mächecn in Egerland dialect souns sort of like Shayneh Maydl with some emphasis on the "a" sounds. There is a Egerländisch dictionary somewhere on line somewhere - it may be a work in progress. It is dialact - German. The Egerland newsletter also has a few more pages of their on-going work to produce a dictionary in each edition. At least they used to. The GBHS library has an older small dictionary of dialect to German. It is helpful but it may not have all the words in it that have been collected by other sources since it was published. Dialects of other Sudeton parts of Bohemia are different from Egerländisch. They depend on the influences brought there by early settlers from Saxon and Frankish homes in early Germany with some mix from local peoples already living there or moving there at the same time (like from Silesia or from Austria). There is a dictionary of German dialects being developed by German scholars. It is expected to be from 16-20 volumes by the time it is finished. I saw the first volume for the letter "A" at a Heimat Treffen in Nurnburg in 1997. I understand that there are a few US Universities that will eventually have all of the books. Georgetown University is one of them. They will probably cost about $100-200 per volume and the price is probably prohibitive for most genealogical libraries in the US. I also doubt that they will be available for interlibrary loan from the collegiat institutions that hold them. They are probably the only resource that would help to translate ANY Sudeten dialect as well as other German dialects from Eastern Europe, Austria, Hungary and other areas settled by Germans during the last several centuries. (Many remaining "outland" German populations have been repatriated when possible because of massacres and suppression following WW II.) I found that there are always articles in dialect in Hemat newsletters -- especially in the older editions. The Jeschken-Iser Jahrbuch was alomst 1/2 narratives in dialect. It is a shame that the dictionaries will be so hard to come by for those who want to know more about Sudeten dialects. I don't know if they will also include Swiss dialects which include Alemannisch, Baseldeutsch, Bernedeutsch and Zurichdeutsch. See http://www.ex.ac.uk/~pjoyce/dialects/obschwyz.html for ancestral Swiss dialects. There is some information about German didlects at: http://members.tripod.com/~rjschellen/Dialinks.htm Scroll down to find it. On the page: http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~naeser/dsa-hist.htm there are phrases to compare. At the bottom of the page there is: Ich will es auch nicht mehr wieder tun. (I'll never do that again.) At the bottom of the list of dialects there is: WI1 I wüls a inimma tuan. WI3 I wülls a nimmermehr tuan. WI20 I wir_s a nimma wieda tuan. Those look like Sudeten dialects without typical diacritical marks. I cannot tell from the page if the spelling is supposed to be phonetic for pronuciation. It looks a lot like dialect spelling I have seen. BTW, when I was last in New Ulm for the SGAS conference, there were a lot of German professors and scholars there. The GBHS put on a show of folk culture and the people who could still speak the dialect their ancestors brought to New Ulm (from the Bishofteinetz and Taus borderlands -- not really Egerländer and not exactly Bohemian Forest dialect. I heard some Germans at the table next to me say that they didn't understand one word. They were guessing it was "some kind of Bayerische". I understand that at least one GBHS member is trying to compile a dictionary of his dialect and to preserve recordings from those in the area who still speak it. Lets hope he is able to complete that work!!! Karen

In a message dated 5/18/2006 6:56:59 AM Mountain Standard Time, pam@ewebexpress.com writes: Re.Chronik.... yes some of it you can abstract in the general form from the Kreis Chronik, but you will have to go to the Village itself to find the individuals that lived there. By law every community had to have a local "historian" or chronicler. He was responsible to keep written records of community events. Community chronicles often have reports about who was chosen for a locall office, who went into or returned from the army, serious weather conditions, harvests, church news like how many attended a festival or pilgrimage, how much was collected in taxes and how it would be used (budgeted) for communtiy services, who was arrested or imprisoned for a crime, fires, epidemics, riots, crimes, visits by important persons or military units, etc. The chronicles I have seen have never listed members of the community. They only mention names when they are associated with something that was considered important to the community. For example they name the man who repaired the church organ (although he may not have been from the local area) or maybe name someone who has become a master craftsman or has finished high school. As time passed and rural literacy rates went up (after 1880) these reports may have been a little more detailed because more people could read them. I have heard that when the Germans were expelled there were sometimes Czechs who took over the community chronicles and now act as a village historian. Always find out who is the mayor of your ancestral village if you plan to visit and ask if anyone has copies of the old chronicles. If you plan to do this it would be a good idea to visit the village with an interpreter - guide. There are a number of researchers who will perform that service if you can find no one else. Otherwise ask if there is someone in the village who cahn speak English (usually someone in their teens or under 30) and offer to pay that person to interpret for you. The Collegium Carolinum at the Sudetenhas in Munich has a number of books of transcriptions of passages from old chronicles in their library. There may also be transcriptions in the Heimat books kept in the Sudetnhaus library which is more than 10,000 volumes. If you can visit there, make photocopies or digital photos of the pages concerning the years that interest you. Ewald Keil has transcribed the chronicles of Schonau (Kreiz Luditz) and there are lists of residents at that place at his website (Seelenlisten for 1651 and 1654). http://www.geocities.com/ekeilde/x01.htm His website is in German but if you go there via Google or Yahoo you should have the option [translate this page] on your "hits". You may have to search with his name to get that option. The Jeschken-Iser Yearbook ( http://www.heimatkreis.de/) always contained some extracts from their chronicles (going back centuries) which seems to indicate that the Heimatgroup has a copy of the chronicles. Other Heimat museums may also have them for the communities they represent. Chronicles are a good way to get an idea of what life was like in an ancestral community. All of the transcriptions are not "equal". For example the Mies-Pilsen Heimat stube has an old copy of Chronicles of Mies that has extracts about the familne of 1846-47. The copy of the chronicles of Mies at the Collegium Carolinum does not even mention the famile although it resulted in some serious riots and arson. Locals burned the Jewish quarter just outside the old city walls because they blamed Jewish grain traders for the high price of bread flour. I would think that was important enough to be included in any transcription of the chronicles but the book at the Collegium Carolinum made no mention of the famine, the arson, or the fact that Dragoons from Pilsen came in to control the situation. Karen Karen

wow...you are a wealth of info Aida - I'm saving all your emails :-) .. never know when it may hit a connection with some of my surnames!! Pam ~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ Warrenton, MO http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com Looking for surnames of BANGERT, CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, DIESEL, DILLON, FIELDS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, GOLD, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, KRAFT, MEES/MAES, MENTEL, MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), MITCHELL, PROBST, RAPP, REIS, SCHALLOM, SCHELLHORN, STALEY, STEPPIG, THOELE, WEBER ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aida Kraus" <akibb1@verizon.net> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:02 AM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer You sure are a bona fide old time Egerlander according to your ancestral names and these cannot be traced back because they were there ALL THE TIME! I might even know your Karlsbader Theisingers, or at least my parents did with certainty. Re.Chronik.... yes some of it you can abstract in the general form from the Kreis Chronik, but you will have to go to the Village itself to find the individuals that lived there. Many times they are revealed as village elders (and with your Egerlander names I am quite sure you will find them there) . And I am also sure that you will find most all of them in the Berni Rula, just as I did, which is an alphabetical listing, but be very "creative" as to spelling! It can be requested on an interlibrary loan and if you scroll back a few days you will find my posting of its source. It is good to copy and paste all these information on into a "research folder" ... you never know when you will need them. Aida Theisinger: Cuno von Theising is recorded 1295 at Salzburg, another branch called Theisinger were in Bohemia and Bavaria. There is also a village in the Egerland called Theusing. Götz: you can hardly get more Egerländerisch than this!!! The best pastry shop in Karlsbad was Götzl (a smaller version of Götz= Gottfried), also listed as Goczel at Prague and Breslau in 1389. Kühnl: "kühn" means brave. Written as Kühndl at Iglau in 1391, spelled Kiendl in Austria, Kühnl in Unterfranken, Bavaria Mühlhans, Meyer are too generell for all of Germany and therefore very hard to place! Guetter may be Allemanni(different German tribe from Marcomanni to the East) written as Güder in Switzerland where it means "spendthrift" or "wastrel" shows up in 1278 at Pullendorf and 1438 at Heidelberg. Brandl and Brandt comes from Hildebrandt (legendary figure) who was the swordmaker (weapon-smith) for Dietrich v. Bern, read the Nibelungen Lied! Elevated status W. (?) de Brant 1280 at Zürich, 1289 at Württemberg, Brant Klobelauch 1493 at Frankfurt, Sebastian Brant, poet, 1500. I went to school with 2 Brandls at Karlsbad . Knoebl: probably from either Saxon or Bavarian area where they show as Knöfel. In old high German it is written as "Knöufel" and means "Knopf" which is a button. A button maker most likely. Shows up in 1549 at Leipzig, just North of the Egerland beyond the Ore Mountains. ------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven and Susan Karides" <karides@sbcglobal.net> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer > Thank you, Aida for all your valuable information. I've, in fact been to > all of my ancestral villages (not much remaining, there!), have > Heimatbuecher for the villages and am still in contact and frequently > visit my dad's cousins who went from the Egerland to Bavaria at the time > of the expulsion. I've got my research rather far back on my main surname > lines, but because I was under the incorrect assumption that they were > not landowners, never endeavored to research the Berni Rula (will have to > check the archives to find out how!), although have read what I think you > refer to as the Chronik (am I correct to think of that as the Chronik of > the Kreis such as that one I have "Falkenau, Stadt und Land"? I've just > always been told by the "oldtimers" in the family in Bavaria (some who > are involved in the Heimatstuben) that my names (main ones are Muehlhans > and Theisinger) are very old Egerlaender names that "go way back" (no > one can ever tell me how far back, though!). So, perhaps a new direction > for research I thought I had finished a long time ago!! Thanks. again, > for all your insight. You help a great number of people. > > Since I have not posted my surnames for ages, I will list the main ones: > MUEHLHANS/GOETZ/THEISINGER/KNOEBL/KUEHNL/BRANDL/MAYER/GUETTER/ ERTL all in > Kreis Falkenau a.d. Eger (Theisinger relocated to Karlsbad in 1920s). > Susan > On May 17, 2006, at 6:33 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > >> >> All the above titles means that they are property owners in the >> Egerland. Perhaps individual nobles had different types of serfs for >> whom they provided a living space, but that would be for the minority of >> the Egerland population. So we should not assume that our ancestors >> were "serfs" but most likely did certain tasks in lieu of paying taxes. >> I have never encountered this in my own ancestral search, as they are >> all listed in the Berni Rula as property owners. And they appear in >> the Berni rula with the various description or titles of Owner, Farmer, >> Cottager and Gardener. >> If you walked through a village in Bohemia, you would see that there >> are as many different sized properties, as you'll find anywhere. The >> only difference is that the farms are all clustered together into a >> village and their fields are on the periphery. A farm that stood by >> itself was usually a "Gut" or a "Hof" and had larger and more buildings, >> they are very old land holdings. >> Now here is what I know from researching my own ancestors and at >> first, my opinion of Häusler and Gardener was just like yours, until I >> found out that they were actually owners of these places and had to pay >> taxes. I have several original documents and one ancestor is listed as >> Bürger und Schuhmacher (burgher and shoemaker) at Petschau and they >> owned that house and a large garden. There was a castle at Petschau, and >> I believe that the Beauforts lived there. If anyone offspring of these >> Nobles reads this, please enlighted us about the status of the common >> population! >> There is a Bürger und Uhrmacher (burgher and watchmaker) at the town >> of Marienbad in my family, and while he himself at the time of his >> marriage is not listed as Hausbesitzer (Owner), his father owned 3 >> hotels. There is one Wundarzt (surgeon) at Donawitz and there is no >> listing that he was either a Burgher or Owner. There is a Häusler" >> (cottager) at Neumetternich near Marienbad who owned his place and >> married a "Bauerntochter" (farmer's daughter) from Dürrmaul, they owned >> a very substantial Tudor "cottage" until they were expelled. There is a >> "Hausbesitzer" at Schönthal (which was a large village) who owned a >> "Hof" (large farm) where the family lived until expellation. They were >> original settlers and mentioned in the Chronic and the Berni Rula. >> There are several other family members who lived in the Egerland and >> were given the title "Häusler," but all these were well built stone or >> brick houses with basement and 2 stories... and were still in the family >> when they were expelled. >> What we have to do here is to pay attention to the area where they >> lived and who administered the area. We have to search and ask: was the >> land they lived on belonging to a cloister, a noble, a landholding of a >> nearby City, or very old settlers property. The latter can lead far >> back, probably to 1100-1300, for which there may be no records. The >> Catholic Church appears in the 12th century, but somewhat earlier in the >> Prag and Budweis areas. It would be best to get in touch with the >> expelled people, who maintain "Heimatstuben" in Germany and request a >> name list of early settlers of that particular village from their >> Chronic. Most of the original record keepers have passed on, but there >> are contact people for the individual villages. Go to a German >> website.....and www.yahoo.de is a good one, put the German name of your >> ancestor's village in the URL and see what comes up. Some of them are >> better than others. I presume that you have checked the Rootsweb first! >> Do not be too optimistic to get at any of the Chronics! >> Unfortunately, I must warn you here, that some of these irreplaceable >> records found their end buried in manure piles because of names recorded >> there during the Nazi occupation. The person in charge of these >> documents was most likely a Party member destroying evidence. Had the >> Czechs found a Chronic in a village where names were recorded who held >> offices during the Hitler regime, the executions would have hit even >> more ferociously. So don't place too much hope on finding these. You >> will be luckiest with those villages closest to the Bavarian Border, >> because the people hightailed out of there in a hurry, taking the entire >> village archives along - like the people of Eger, for instance - and in >> most cases the US occupational Forces provided their transportation. >> The records of the Berni Rula will show all your ancestors that were >> propertied it 1651. >> If your ancestor came from the Budweis and Pilsen area it just might >> be a little different than the situation in the Egerland because there >> is a different historical background. The Egerland was not Bohemia >> originally, it was part of the Oberpfalz, and that was and still is to >> this day: Bavaria. >> How to locate the Egerland correctl, that I will put into a different >> Email. >> Aida >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven and Susan Karides" >> <karides@sbcglobal.net> >> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:45 PM >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer >> >> >>> >>> On May 15, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: >>> >>> A "Bauer" is farmer with a full spread, "Häusler" is most likely a >>> craftsman operating a smaller farm, "Gardener" is employed elsewhere >>> and just grows his vegetables and raises small animals around the >>> house he owns, and a "Hausbesitzer" is a Burgher in a town, a free man >>> >>> >>>> The definition of a "Haeusler" in William E. Wrights "Serf, Seigneur >>>> and Sovereign..Agararian Reform in Eighteenth-Century Bohemia" is >>>> summed up in his passage(p 17): " Further peasant ranks included >>>> cotters (Haeusler) and servants or day laborers (Inleute). These >>>> usually held no land other than gardens adjacent to their houses. >>>> They supported themselves and their families by working for their >>>> wages or payment in kind. Their obligations to the lord were usually >>>> considerably fewer than those of the land- holding peasants." I had >>>> always construed that to mean that they did now own any land, >>>> including the house in which they lived. Is that correct? I have lots >>>> of Haeuslers in the 1700s and early 1800s. Thanks for all your >>>> knowledge that you so unselfishly share! >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> >>> >>>> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>>> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >>>> list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// >>>> archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>> Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? >>> Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >> list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// >> archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >> > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the list? To browse the archives, go to: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/

just looking at your surnames...I have a Charlie Goetz m to Martha Margareta Catherina Lindhorst (no dates for the Charlie, but Martha is 1871-1898; no other info on Goetz, but Martha's parents were Rudolph Lindhorst (1837-1927) m. to Maria Margaretta Hartwig (1846-1922) both from Prussia Germany - no further info going back there either. Don't have Theisinger - but do have Thies, Thiess, Theisen, Theissen, Thessen, Thoenen, Thielan, Thiebing; Don't have Mayer but do have Mauer's probably not related - but I'm always checking each sigline! :-) have a good day ~Pam Frierdich-Staley~ Warrenton, MO http://www.michael-steppig-family-tree.com http://www.frierdich-staley-familytree.com Looking for surnames of BANGERT, CINNAUGHT/CANNAUGHT, DIESEL, DILLON, FIELDS, FRIERDICH/FRIEDRICH, GOLD, HATTER/HOERTER, KIEFER, KRAFT, MEES/MAES, MENTEL, MICHALEK (MICHAEL/EAL), MITCHELL, PROBST, RAPP, REIS, SCHALLOM, SCHELLHORN, STALEY, STEPPIG, THOELE, WEBER ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven and Susan Karides" <karides@sbcglobal.net> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 9:58 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer Thank you, Aida for all your valuable information. I've, in fact been to all of my ancestral villages (not much remaining, there!), have Heimatbuecher for the villages and am still in contact and frequently visit my dad's cousins who went from the Egerland to Bavaria at the time of the expulsion. I've got my research rather far back on my main surname lines, but because I was under the incorrect assumption that they were not landowners, never endeavored to research the Berni Rula (will have to check the archives to find out how!), although have read what I think you refer to as the Chronik (am I correct to think of that as the Chronik of the Kreis such as that one I have "Falkenau, Stadt und Land"? I've just always been told by the "oldtimers" in the family in Bavaria (some who are involved in the Heimatstuben) that my names (main ones are Muehlhans and Theisinger) are very old Egerlaender names that "go way back" (no one can ever tell me how far back, though!). So, perhaps a new direction for research I thought I had finished a long time ago!! Thanks. again, for all your insight. You help a great number of people. Since I have not posted my surnames for ages, I will list the main ones: MUEHLHANS/GOETZ/THEISINGER/KNOEBL/KUEHNL/BRANDL/MAYER/GUETTER/ ERTL all in Kreis Falkenau a.d. Eger (Theisinger relocated to Karlsbad in 1920s). Susan On May 17, 2006, at 6:33 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > All the above titles means that they are property owners in the > Egerland. Perhaps individual nobles had different types of serfs > for whom they provided a living space, but that would be for the > minority of the Egerland population. So we should not assume that > our ancestors were "serfs" but most likely did certain tasks in > lieu of paying taxes. I have never encountered this in my own > ancestral search, as they are all listed in the Berni Rula as > property owners. And they appear in the Berni rula with the > various description or titles of Owner, Farmer, Cottager and Gardener. > If you walked through a village in Bohemia, you would see that > there are as many different sized properties, as you'll find > anywhere. The only difference is that the farms are all clustered > together into a village and their fields are on the periphery. A > farm that stood by itself was usually a "Gut" or a "Hof" and had > larger and more buildings, they are very old land holdings. > Now here is what I know from researching my own ancestors and > at first, my opinion of Häusler and Gardener was just like yours, > until I found out that they were actually owners of these places > and had to pay taxes. I have several original documents and one > ancestor is listed as Bürger und Schuhmacher (burgher and > shoemaker) at Petschau and they owned that house and a large > garden. There was a castle at Petschau, and I believe that the > Beauforts lived there. If anyone offspring of these Nobles reads > this, please enlighted us about the status of the common population! > There is a Bürger und Uhrmacher (burgher and watchmaker) at the > town of Marienbad in my family, and while he himself at the time of > his marriage is not listed as Hausbesitzer (Owner), his father > owned 3 hotels. There is one Wundarzt (surgeon) at Donawitz and > there is no listing that he was either a Burgher or Owner. There > is a Häusler" (cottager) at Neumetternich near Marienbad who owned > his place and married a "Bauerntochter" (farmer's daughter) from > Dürrmaul, they owned a very substantial Tudor "cottage" until they > were expelled. There is a "Hausbesitzer" at Schönthal (which was a > large village) who owned a "Hof" (large farm) where the family > lived until expellation. They were original settlers and mentioned > in the Chronic and the Berni Rula. There are several other family > members who lived in the Egerland and were given the title > "Häusler," but all these were well built stone or brick houses > with basement and 2 stories... and were still in the family when > they were expelled. > What we have to do here is to pay attention to the area where > they lived and who administered the area. We have to search and > ask: was the land they lived on belonging to a cloister, a noble, a > landholding of a nearby City, or very old settlers property. The > latter can lead far back, probably to 1100-1300, for which there > may be no records. The Catholic Church appears in the 12th > century, but somewhat earlier in the Prag and Budweis areas. It > would be best to get in touch with the expelled people, who > maintain "Heimatstuben" in Germany and request a name list of early > settlers of that particular village from their Chronic. Most of > the original record keepers have passed on, but there are contact > people for the individual villages. Go to a German > website.....and www.yahoo.de is a good one, put the German name of > your ancestor's village in the URL and see what comes up. Some of > them are better than others. I presume that you have checked the > Rootsweb first! > Do not be too optimistic to get at any of the Chronics! > Unfortunately, I must warn you here, that some of these > irreplaceable records found their end buried in manure piles > because of names recorded there during the Nazi occupation. The > person in charge of these documents was most likely a Party member > destroying evidence. Had the Czechs found a Chronic in a village > where names were recorded who held offices during the Hitler > regime, the executions would have hit even more ferociously. So > don't place too much hope on finding these. You will be luckiest > with those villages closest to the Bavarian Border, because the > people hightailed out of there in a hurry, taking the entire > village archives along - like the people of Eger, for instance - > and in most cases the US occupational Forces provided their > transportation. > The records of the Berni Rula will show all your ancestors that > were propertied it 1651. > If your ancestor came from the Budweis and Pilsen area it just > might be a little different than the situation in the Egerland > because there is a different historical background. The Egerland > was not Bohemia originally, it was part of the Oberpfalz, and that > was and still is to this day: Bavaria. > How to locate the Egerland correctl, that I will put into a > different Email. > Aida > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven and Susan Karides" > <karides@sbcglobal.net> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:45 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer > > >> >> On May 15, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: >> >> A "Bauer" is farmer with a full spread, "Häusler" is most >> likely a craftsman operating a smaller farm, "Gardener" is >> employed elsewhere and just grows his vegetables and raises small >> animals around the house he owns, and a "Hausbesitzer" is a >> Burgher in a town, a free man >> >> >>> The definition of a "Haeusler" in William E. Wrights "Serf, >>> Seigneur and Sovereign..Agararian Reform in Eighteenth-Century >>> Bohemia" is summed up in his passage(p 17): " Further peasant >>> ranks included cotters (Haeusler) and servants or day laborers >>> (Inleute). These usually held no land other than gardens >>> adjacent to their houses. They supported themselves and their >>> families by working for their wages or payment in kind. Their >>> obligations to the lord were usually considerably fewer than >>> those of the land- holding peasants." I had always construed >>> that to mean that they did now own any land, including the house >>> in which they lived. Is that correct? I have lots of Haeuslers >>> in the 1700s and early 1800s. Thanks for all your knowledge that >>> you so unselfishly share! >> >> Susan >> >> >> >>> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you >>> joined the list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// >>> archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >>> >> >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? >> Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined > the list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// > archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== Visit the German-Bohemian Heritage Society Web Page! http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/

Yes, I agree with you on that Bob, that it would be quite different at Saaz which is a predominantly agricultural area and where hop growing was the most profitable crop for the farmer who sold it to the Breweries. I also have never heard of a full, half or quarter farmer before! The Saaz area is close to the language border and you state that the landholders were Czechs, and this could very well be the difference. For instance, if you look at old Egerland maps the East border varies in the Saaz-Kaaden area. On some maps they are included in the Egerland, on the others they dont. So yes, this shows that there were differences! Consider also that the Egerland was far more industrial along the Eger River and towards the mountains, and "Herrenlose" meaning actually "freemen" had more privileges, albeit little or no land holdings and that held true for most people of the Jewish faith. Would you consider a Burgher who is a freemen also a "Herrenloser" ? Would Jewish people be considered in that category because they were not allowed to own property for a very long time within the Austrian Hungarian Empire? So, it stands to reason that if you have Jewish ancestors, you have to be particularly careful to find Austrian Hungarian laws governing restrictions or privileges, because after the Ausgleich in 1866 there were many Jewish hotel and factory owners in the Egerland right up to my growing years. Therefore, it is of utmost importance that the researcher develops a good "geographical" knowledge of the area of his research, and he must read up on Austrian Hungarian laws rather than trying to make sense of German or Czech websites. I begin to think that this is why the Berni Rula was created in alphabetical order. So lets use it, by all means! An employee or serf of a noble would certainly carry a different kind of definition for 'Häusler" or "Cottager" than the "Häusler" having a small farm. THAT really puts a monkey wrench into the definition of a "Häusler". And I can prove this, as I have original documents where they are named as "Häusler" while they owned house and land and are listed in the Berni Rula! ... So what we see here is that this Häusler title is used in different ways. That certainly does not make it as easy as we would like it. Actually, I have encountered the same (as Bob mentioned) in the Southwest of Bohemia, where Czech nobles were given administrative rights to agricultural land. It was not so in the Egerland heartland which is far more industrial towards the mountains, and at the same time it also was the area for the international Jetset for their pleasures at the spas and/or health treatments. The large untouched areas of forests and parklike settings supported this hospitality business extremely well. The industrial sites, namely the coal mines were far enough away and toy-making, musical instrument manufacture, glass blowing, lace making, various other home industries or mining in the mountains where in the higher regions where all but the hardiest crops failed anyway. Just look at the rich brown coal mines in the Falkenau area and Uranium mines at Joachimsthal! The porcelain factories around the Zettlitz Kaolin works were supported by art schools and the entire Eger Corridor was a bustling international place. So what can we advise, Bob? And Karen what would you say? That we have to take region for region, that the Berni Rula here will be a very necessary tool to establish property owners, and that those that believe that their ancestors were serfs on an estate should most likely go after the registers of those Nobles? I can see that it probably will be easier to find such people when a Czech Noble administered the area, but what about some of the Gutshöfe of the German nobles who were expelled also? I doubt that they had the time and means to haul out ancient records! I am not surprised that nearly all of us are getting stuck at one point or other. Please share your experiences where you searched with positive results. Aida ------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Ullman" <ullman@easystreet.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 10:47 PM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer > The discussion of peasant landholdings and responsibilites covers a huge > field. My own ancestors were from the southern Saazer Kreis, a bit unlike > most of the Egerland in that it was much more of a mix of Germans and > Czechs. In fact the lords of my ancestors' estate were members of a very > old Czech family. Based on this we might imagine that what Aida has > stated about the Egerland would apply differently in the Saaz. > Surprisingly, the amount of land held and the taxes owed often varied not > only from Kreis to Kreis or estate to estate, but, as you can see in the > quotation which follows, even with an estate! > > from "Noble Landowners and Agriculture in Austria, 1918-1848: A study in > the origins of the peasant emancipation of 1848," by Jerome Blum, the > Johns Hopkins Press, 1948. > pages 68-9 - Peasant Tenures - Dues and Obligations > The land occupied by the peasants was divided into units called by > various names. A peasant might hold a full unit, or more probably, a part > of a unit, down to a quarter or an eighth. Still smaller holdings were > occupied by cotters. The services and dues, especially the labor service, > which were required of the peasant depended, in general, upon the share of > the unit which he held. The peasant who occupied a whole unit was known > as a "Ganzbauer," the holder of a half unit was a Halb-bauer, and so on > (note - estate records show that my own ancestors were originally > Halb-bauers - ru). There were actually large variations between the amount > and yield of land held by peasants of the same status. This variation was > found not only between provinces and between different areas of an > individual province, but even within a single manor. On such an estate > one "Ganzbauer" might have 50 or more yokes of land in his possession > while a neighboring "Ganzbauer" had only half as much. Yet the services > required of the two men were identical....The type and the amount of the > obligation the peasant owed his lord varied between the provinces and also > within the individual province. The diversity of the obligations and their > number were revealed during the process of emancipation after 1848. Thus, > in Moravia 246 different types of money payments alone were reported. > > Concerning the paying of taxes and "robota," things changed greatly as a > "proto-industrial" revolution began to take hold in Bohemia during the the > 18th century. The rise of a landless class ("herrenlose") is described in > the following quotation from "Absolutism and the eighteenth-century > origins of compulsory schooling in Prussia and Austria," by James Van Horn > Melton, Cambridge Univ. Press, 1988. > > Pages 123-5 - The Labor Force > For the most part...proto-industrial production was centered in the > countryside, where the absence of guilds made for a more elastic labor > market. Moreover, seasonal fluctuations in the agricultural labor market > left the rural population free to spin or weave during much of the year. > Rural labor was also cheaper: The cost of living was lower in the > countryside, and because many rural laborers still derived a part of their > income from agriculture, the entrepreneur could pay lower wages than would > have been required had the laborers depended on industry alone for their > subsistence. > The labor force in rural manufacturing consisted largely of land-poor > households dependent upon non-agricultural pursuits for their subsistence. > The number of these households grew steadily in eighteenth-century Prussia > and Austria and constituted most of the rural population. Some were > so-called lodgers ("Einlieger" or "Inleute"), who roomed with and were > subject to the authority of more prosperous rural households. Most were > gardeners ("Gartner") and cotters ("Hausler") who owned little or no land > and lived on the physical and social fringes of the village community.... > Rural manufacturing further hastened the growth of a subpeasant stratum > by encouraging peasant displacement ("Bauernlegen"). In the eighteenth > century, peasant displacement was most common in regions like Bohemia, > Silesia, and East Prussia, where labor services were the predominant form > of seignorial rent. Peasant displacement had been rare as long as > peasants had few sources of income outside of agriculture. After all, the > use of peasant labor on siegnorial demesne was possible only as long as > the peasant household could subsist off its own holding. > Page 146 - The crisis of seigniorial authority > ...economic changes in the countryside had begun to belie many of the > cherished assumptions of seigniorial paternalism...the rapid expansion of > a land-poor, subpeasant stratum was creating a "herrenlose" class only > loosely bound by seigniorial ties. A lack of land made this group less > subject to the juridical authority of the lord, while the growing > availability of employment in rural industry further increased their > independence from seigniorial control. The landless laborer's > relationship to seigniorial authority was far more ambigious than that of > the peasant, whose plot of land concretely defined his feudal obligations. > > Bob Ullman > ullman@easystreet.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Aida Kraus > To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com > Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:33 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer > > > All the above titles means that they are property owners in the Egerland. > Perhaps individual nobles had different types of serfs for whom they > provided a living space, but that would be for the minority of the > Egerland > population. So we should not assume that our ancestors were "serfs" but > most likely did certain tasks in lieu of paying taxes. I have never > encountered this in my own ancestral search, as they are all listed in the > Berni Rula as property owners. And they appear in the Berni rula with > the > various description or titles of Owner, Farmer, Cottager and Gardener. > If you walked through a village in Bohemia, you would see that there > are as many different sized properties, as you'll find anywhere. The only > difference is that the farms are all clustered together into a village and > their fields are on the periphery. A farm that stood by itself was usually > a > "Gut" or a "Hof" and had larger and more buildings, they are very old land > holdings. > Now here is what I know from researching my own ancestors and at > first, > my opinion of Häusler and Gardener was just like yours, until I found out > that they were actually owners of these places and had to pay taxes. I > have > several original documents and one ancestor is listed as Bürger und > Schuhmacher (burgher and shoemaker) at Petschau and they owned that house > and a large garden. There was a castle at Petschau, and I believe that the > Beauforts lived there. If anyone offspring of these Nobles reads this, > please enlighted us about the status of the common population! > There is a Bürger und Uhrmacher (burgher and watchmaker) at the town of > Marienbad in my family, and while he himself at the time of his marriage > is > not listed as Hausbesitzer (Owner), his father owned 3 hotels. There > is > one Wundarzt (surgeon) at Donawitz and there is no listing that he was > either a Burgher or Owner. There is a Häusler" (cottager) at > Neumetternich > near Marienbad who owned his place and married a "Bauerntochter" (farmer's > daughter) from Dürrmaul, they owned a very substantial Tudor "cottage" > until they were expelled. There is a "Hausbesitzer" at Schönthal (which > was > a large village) who owned a "Hof" (large farm) where the family lived > until > expellation. They were original settlers and mentioned in the Chronic and > the Berni Rula. There are several other family members who lived in the > Egerland and were given the title "Häusler," but all these were well > built > stone or brick houses with basement and 2 stories... and were still in the > family when they were expelled. > What we have to do here is to pay attention to the area where they > lived and who administered the area. We have to search and ask: was the > land they lived on belonging to a cloister, a noble, a landholding of a > nearby City, or very old settlers property. The latter can lead far back, > probably to 1100-1300, for which there may be no records. The Catholic > Church appears in the 12th century, but somewhat earlier in the Prag and > Budweis areas. It would be best to get in touch with the expelled people, > who maintain "Heimatstuben" in Germany and request a name list of early > settlers of that particular village from their Chronic. Most of the > original record keepers have passed on, but there are contact people for > the > individual villages. Go to a German website.....and www.yahoo.de is a > good > one, put the German name of your ancestor's village in the URL and see > what > comes up. Some of them are better than others. I presume that you have > checked the Rootsweb first! > Do not be too optimistic to get at any of the Chronics! Unfortunately, > I > must warn you here, that some of these irreplaceable records found their > end > buried in manure piles because of names recorded there during the Nazi > occupation. The person in charge of these documents was most likely a > Party > member destroying evidence. Had the Czechs found a Chronic in a village > where names were recorded who held offices during the Hitler regime, the > executions would have hit even more ferociously. So don't place too much > hope on finding these. You will be luckiest with those villages closest to > the Bavarian Border, because the people hightailed out of there in a > hurry, > taking the entire village archives along - like the people of Eger, for > instance - and in most cases the US occupational Forces provided their > transportation. > The records of the Berni Rula will show all your ancestors that were > propertied it 1651. > If your ancestor came from the Budweis and Pilsen area it just might be > a little different than the situation in the Egerland because there is a > different historical background. The Egerland was not Bohemia originally, > it was part of the Oberpfalz, and that was and still is to this day: > Bavaria. > How to locate the Egerland correctl, that I will put into a different > Email. > Aida > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven and Susan Karides" <karides@sbcglobal.net> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:45 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer > > >> >> On May 15, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: >> >> A "Bauer" is farmer with a full spread, "Häusler" is most likely a >> craftsman operating a smaller farm, "Gardener" is employed elsewhere and >> just grows his vegetables and raises small animals around the house he >> owns, and a "Hausbesitzer" is a Burgher in a town, a free man >> >> >>> The definition of a "Haeusler" in William E. Wrights "Serf, Seigneur >>> and Sovereign..Agararian Reform in Eighteenth-Century Bohemia" is >>> summed up in his passage(p 17): " Further peasant ranks included >>> cotters (Haeusler) and servants or day laborers (Inleute). These >>> usually held no land other than gardens adjacent to their houses. They >>> supported themselves and their families by working for their wages or >>> payment in kind. Their obligations to the lord were usually >>> considerably fewer than those of the land- holding peasants." I had >>> always construed that to mean that they did now own any land, including >>> the house in which they lived. Is that correct? I have lots of >>> Haeuslers in the 1700s and early 1800s. Thanks for all your knowledge >>> that you so unselfishly share! >> >> Susan >> >> >> >>> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >>> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >>> list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// >>> archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >>> >> >> >> >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? >> Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >> > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the > list? To search the archives, go to: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=GERMAN-BOHEMIAN >

Aida.May I ask if Haid Tachau is considered in the Eggerland, I know one of my ancestors was born in Mies, but they later show up in Haid, just asking Jean in Fl

The discussion of peasant landholdings and responsibilites covers a huge field. My own ancestors were from the southern Saazer Kreis, a bit unlike most of the Egerland in that it was much more of a mix of Germans and Czechs. In fact the lords of my ancestors' estate were members of a very old Czech family. Based on this we might imagine that what Aida has stated about the Egerland would apply differently in the Saaz. Surprisingly, the amount of land held and the taxes owed often varied not only from Kreis to Kreis or estate to estate, but, as you can see in the quotation which follows, even with an estate! from "Noble Landowners and Agriculture in Austria, 1918-1848: A study in the origins of the peasant emancipation of 1848," by Jerome Blum, the Johns Hopkins Press, 1948. pages 68-9 - Peasant Tenures - Dues and Obligations The land occupied by the peasants was divided into units called by various names. A peasant might hold a full unit, or more probably, a part of a unit, down to a quarter or an eighth. Still smaller holdings were occupied by cotters. The services and dues, especially the labor service, which were required of the peasant depended, in general, upon the share of the unit which he held. The peasant who occupied a whole unit was known as a "Ganzbauer," the holder of a half unit was a Halb-bauer, and so on (note - estate records show that my own ancestors were originally Halb-bauers - ru). There were actually large variations between the amount and yield of land held by peasants of the same status. This variation was found not only between provinces and between different areas of an individual province, but even within a single manor. On such an estate one "Ganzbauer" might have 50 or more yokes of land in his possession while a neighboring "Ganzbauer" had only half as much. Yet the services required of the two men were identical....The type and the amount of the obligation the peasant owed his lord varied between the provinces and also within the individual province. The diversity of the obligations and their number were revealed during the process of emancipation after 1848. Thus, in Moravia 246 different types of money payments alone were reported. Concerning the paying of taxes and "robota," things changed greatly as a "proto-industrial" revolution began to take hold in Bohemia during the the 18th century. The rise of a landless class ("herrenlose") is described in the following quotation from "Absolutism and the eighteenth-century origins of compulsory schooling in Prussia and Austria," by James Van Horn Melton, Cambridge Univ. Press, 1988. Pages 123-5 - The Labor Force For the most part...proto-industrial production was centered in the countryside, where the absence of guilds made for a more elastic labor market. Moreover, seasonal fluctuations in the agricultural labor market left the rural population free to spin or weave during much of the year. Rural labor was also cheaper: The cost of living was lower in the countryside, and because many rural laborers still derived a part of their income from agriculture, the entrepreneur could pay lower wages than would have been required had the laborers depended on industry alone for their subsistence. The labor force in rural manufacturing consisted largely of land-poor households dependent upon non-agricultural pursuits for their subsistence. The number of these households grew steadily in eighteenth-century Prussia and Austria and constituted most of the rural population. Some were so-called lodgers ("Einlieger" or "Inleute"), who roomed with and were subject to the authority of more prosperous rural households. Most were gardeners ("Gartner") and cotters ("Hausler") who owned little or no land and lived on the physical and social fringes of the village community.... Rural manufacturing further hastened the growth of a subpeasant stratum by encouraging peasant displacement ("Bauernlegen"). In the eighteenth century, peasant displacement was most common in regions like Bohemia, Silesia, and East Prussia, where labor services were the predominant form of seignorial rent. Peasant displacement had been rare as long as peasants had few sources of income outside of agriculture. After all, the use of peasant labor on siegnorial demesne was possible only as long as the peasant household could subsist off its own holding. Page 146 - The crisis of seigniorial authority ...economic changes in the countryside had begun to belie many of the cherished assumptions of seigniorial paternalism...the rapid expansion of a land-poor, subpeasant stratum was creating a "herrenlose" class only loosely bound by seigniorial ties. A lack of land made this group less subject to the juridical authority of the lord, while the growing availability of employment in rural industry further increased their independence from seigniorial control. The landless laborer's relationship to seigniorial authority was far more ambigious than that of the peasant, whose plot of land concretely defined his feudal obligations. Bob Ullman ullman@easystreet.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Aida Kraus To: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer All the above titles means that they are property owners in the Egerland. Perhaps individual nobles had different types of serfs for whom they provided a living space, but that would be for the minority of the Egerland population. So we should not assume that our ancestors were "serfs" but most likely did certain tasks in lieu of paying taxes. I have never encountered this in my own ancestral search, as they are all listed in the Berni Rula as property owners. And they appear in the Berni rula with the various description or titles of Owner, Farmer, Cottager and Gardener. If you walked through a village in Bohemia, you would see that there are as many different sized properties, as you'll find anywhere. The only difference is that the farms are all clustered together into a village and their fields are on the periphery. A farm that stood by itself was usually a "Gut" or a "Hof" and had larger and more buildings, they are very old land holdings. Now here is what I know from researching my own ancestors and at first, my opinion of Häusler and Gardener was just like yours, until I found out that they were actually owners of these places and had to pay taxes. I have several original documents and one ancestor is listed as Bürger und Schuhmacher (burgher and shoemaker) at Petschau and they owned that house and a large garden. There was a castle at Petschau, and I believe that the Beauforts lived there. If anyone offspring of these Nobles reads this, please enlighted us about the status of the common population! There is a Bürger und Uhrmacher (burgher and watchmaker) at the town of Marienbad in my family, and while he himself at the time of his marriage is not listed as Hausbesitzer (Owner), his father owned 3 hotels. There is one Wundarzt (surgeon) at Donawitz and there is no listing that he was either a Burgher or Owner. There is a Häusler" (cottager) at Neumetternich near Marienbad who owned his place and married a "Bauerntochter" (farmer's daughter) from Dürrmaul, they owned a very substantial Tudor "cottage" until they were expelled. There is a "Hausbesitzer" at Schönthal (which was a large village) who owned a "Hof" (large farm) where the family lived until expellation. They were original settlers and mentioned in the Chronic and the Berni Rula. There are several other family members who lived in the Egerland and were given the title "Häusler," but all these were well built stone or brick houses with basement and 2 stories... and were still in the family when they were expelled. What we have to do here is to pay attention to the area where they lived and who administered the area. We have to search and ask: was the land they lived on belonging to a cloister, a noble, a landholding of a nearby City, or very old settlers property. The latter can lead far back, probably to 1100-1300, for which there may be no records. The Catholic Church appears in the 12th century, but somewhat earlier in the Prag and Budweis areas. It would be best to get in touch with the expelled people, who maintain "Heimatstuben" in Germany and request a name list of early settlers of that particular village from their Chronic. Most of the original record keepers have passed on, but there are contact people for the individual villages. Go to a German website.....and www.yahoo.de is a good one, put the German name of your ancestor's village in the URL and see what comes up. Some of them are better than others. I presume that you have checked the Rootsweb first! Do not be too optimistic to get at any of the Chronics! Unfortunately, I must warn you here, that some of these irreplaceable records found their end buried in manure piles because of names recorded there during the Nazi occupation. The person in charge of these documents was most likely a Party member destroying evidence. Had the Czechs found a Chronic in a village where names were recorded who held offices during the Hitler regime, the executions would have hit even more ferociously. So don't place too much hope on finding these. You will be luckiest with those villages closest to the Bavarian Border, because the people hightailed out of there in a hurry, taking the entire village archives along - like the people of Eger, for instance - and in most cases the US occupational Forces provided their transportation. The records of the Berni Rula will show all your ancestors that were propertied it 1651. If your ancestor came from the Budweis and Pilsen area it just might be a little different than the situation in the Egerland because there is a different historical background. The Egerland was not Bohemia originally, it was part of the Oberpfalz, and that was and still is to this day: Bavaria. How to locate the Egerland correctl, that I will put into a different Email. Aida ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven and Susan Karides" <karides@sbcglobal.net> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Fw: Gärtner-Häusler-Hausbesitzer > > On May 15, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Aida Kraus wrote: > > A "Bauer" is farmer with a full spread, "Häusler" is most likely a > craftsman operating a smaller farm, "Gardener" is employed elsewhere and > just grows his vegetables and raises small animals around the house he > owns, and a "Hausbesitzer" is a Burgher in a town, a free man > > >> The definition of a "Haeusler" in William E. Wrights "Serf, Seigneur and >> Sovereign..Agararian Reform in Eighteenth-Century Bohemia" is summed up >> in his passage(p 17): " Further peasant ranks included cotters >> (Haeusler) and servants or day laborers (Inleute). These usually held no >> land other than gardens adjacent to their houses. They supported >> themselves and their families by working for their wages or payment in >> kind. Their obligations to the lord were usually considerably fewer than >> those of the land- holding peasants." I had always construed that to >> mean that they did now own any land, including the house in which they >> lived. Is that correct? I have lots of Haeuslers in the 1700s and early >> 1800s. Thanks for all your knowledge that you so unselfishly share! > > Susan > > > >> ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== >> Would you like to see messages that were posted before you joined the >> list? To browse the archives, go to: http:// >> archiver.rootsweb.com/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-L/ >> > > > > ==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ==== > Forgotten how to UNSUBSCRIBE? > Visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/mailinglist/mailinglist.html >