Lisa -- Manifests differ ... some show place of origin and some don't -- unfortunately most don't or give something broad like Austria or Germany or Bohemia. If you know the date of arrival and/or the ship you might be able to search on Missing Manifests at www.stevemorse.org This would work best if you know both ... it does involve lots of reading but you could find something. Have you not been able to find them using the surname...because that is the fastest. Susan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Perry" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 12:58 PM Subject: Re: [Bohemia] [AUSTRIA] Ship to Canada 1859 > That is a wonderful tip. > Is there any way from looking at the manifest to tell where or what > village > they came from? I know when they arrived and what ship but don't know how > to proceed to find any further information. > Thanks, > > Lisa > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > On > Behalf Of Olive Tree Genealogy > Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 7:32 AM > To: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; > [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: Re: [AUSTRIA] Ship to Canada 1859 > > Hello Tony > > You have done a great job of writing up your research and > asking for help. > > I think I have found your Adalbert on the ships list > "Republic" arriving NY 7 Nov. 1859 from Bremen. His origin > is given as Bohemia, Czechoslovakia and he is 51 years old. > > I'm familiar with the NY lists and they are very difficult > to read sometimes. Some passengers have no first name in > the index. Some have only an initial. > > I found him by searching without any names at all and only > using his date of birth (which was the only thing missing > from your excellent query below) and his year of arrival. > > He is misindexed on Ancestry as "Balbert Kar" Had you > searched with wildcards on surname for "kar*" and no first > name, he should have shown up. But sometimes the Ancestry > search glitches and a result will not appear one time, but > will appear the next! > > In any case, with "Balbert" are the following individuals > > Adalbert b ca 1852 > Catharine b ca 1818 > Johann b ca 1842 > Joseph b ca 1849 > Rosalia b ca 1840 > > Enjoy :-) > Lorine of OliveTreeGenealogy.com > > > > On 12 Dec 2008 at 22:30, [email protected] wrote: > >> Hello listers! Sorry for the length of this post, but after >> exhausting every source I can think of, this is my last >> chance. >> >> I am searching the ship on which my ancestors arrived in the >> New World. I believe my GGG grandfather ADALBERT KARL, >> spouse KATHARINA MULTRUS and their four children ROSA, JOHN, >> JOSEPH, and ALBERT from HRADZEN, BOHEMIA, AUSTRIA near >> PILSEN departed BREMEN in 1859. They do not show up in any >> incoming passenger lists in America. To no avail I have >> searched the Steve Morse site using the following wildcards: >> ada* ade* cat* kat* ros* joh* jos* alb* and surname kar* >> car* har* and ear*. This leads me to believe they did not >> enter through the U.S. >> >> The reason I believe they departed Bremen is because in >> the1860 U.S. Census from Allegany, NY they indicate they >> were from Bremen, Germany. However in every future census, >> they correctly state they are from Austria. In Adalbert's >> obituary from 1903 it states that he and his family of four >> mistakenly went to DAYTON, OHIO instead of DAYTONS SUMMIT, >> NEW YORK. >> >> Here is a summary of the records I have searched to date: >> >> a) Every U.S. arrival site - including the Steve Morse site >> - for every combination I can think of. b) All of the >> websites of pre-1865 passsenger lists for Canadian Arrivals >> on the Olive Tree Genealogy site. c) The "Germans To >> America" Series. d) "German Immigrants: Lists of Passengers >> Bound from Bremen to New York, 1855-1862" e) The Leo Baca >> Book "Czech Immigration Passenger Lists, Volumes 1-9 " f) I >> have requested citizenship records of Adalbert Karl in the >> hope that they would reveal the date and place of entry into >> the U.S. but Immigration wrote me that there is no record. >> He was naturalized in 1866 according to the local county >> records, but these shed no light on his date or mode of >> entry to the U.S.. g) I have written to the Ship List and >> other genealogy listservs in the hope of finding a morsel of >> information that I could follow up on. I posted on the >> Ancestry.com message boards and received a response from a >> gentleman apparently writing from the Czech Republic who >> informed me, I quote: >> >> "Accordings to the proceeding protocoll of Regional >> Office of Plzen asked on 1859 Adalbert Karl from Hradzen >> (Hradec u Stoda) for issuing of emigrant >> passport to USA.There is possible to see the proces of >> issuing of passport sep by step there. Adalbert can be >> recorded as Bohemian in the books of Leo Baca >> (Bohemian passanger lists). Look for them in some big >> library. The registers of Hradzen are in the archive in >> Plzen. You can search yourself ther or you can hire >> some of Czech researcher." >> >> While promising, my replies to this post requesting further >> information have never been answered. I am willing to accept >> that the absence of data means that my ancestors must have >> entered through Canada on some impossible-to-trace ship. But >> I must at least ask the question if there are any stones I >> have left unturned. >> >> My questions are this: what would be the typical route for a >> family from Austria, departing Bremen for America in 1859? >> Assuming they departed Bremen, would they have stopped in >> the British Isles? And would there be a record of this >> arrival or departure? And then, would they typically have >> arrived at Quebec if they were bound for Dayton? Once at >> Quebec, would their voyage to the wrong Dayton be via the >> U.S. or Canada? >> >> Thank you very much for any insight you can provide, >> Tony Buccella > > > -- Lorine McGinnis Schulze > > * Olive Tree Genealogy (Ships Passenger Lists) > http://olivetreegenealogy.com/ > * Naturalization Records > http://naturalizationrecords.com/ > * Images of Ships Lists > http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ships/ > > [email protected] or [email protected] > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

That's interesting -- searching by date of birth and year of arrival. I never thought of that! I have searched by first names when the last name might "get mangled" - when I do that I usually break it down to a year at a time. I'm going to try your suggestion for my elusive ancestors. Susan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Olive Tree Genealogy" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 7:31 AM Subject: Re: [Bohemia] Ship to Canada 1859 > Hello Tony > > You have done a great job of writing up your research and > asking for help. > > I think I have found your Adalbert on the ships list > "Republic" arriving NY 7 Nov. 1859 from Bremen. His origin > is given as Bohemia, Czechoslovakia and he is 51 years old. > > I'm familiar with the NY lists and they are very difficult > to read sometimes. Some passengers have no first name in > the index. Some have only an initial. > > I found him by searching without any names at all and only > using his date of birth (which was the only thing missing > from your excellent query below) and his year of arrival. > > He is misindexed on Ancestry as "Balbert Kar" Had you > searched with wildcards on surname for "kar*" and no first > name, he should have shown up. But sometimes the Ancestry > search glitches and a result will not appear one time, but > will appear the next! > > In any case, with "Balbert" are the following individuals > > Adalbert b ca 1852 > Catharine b ca 1818 > Johann b ca 1842 > Joseph b ca 1849 > Rosalia b ca 1840 > > Enjoy :-) > Lorine of OliveTreeGenealogy.com > > > > On 12 Dec 2008 at 22:30, [email protected] wrote: > >> Hello listers! Sorry for the length of this post, but after >> exhausting every source I can think of, this is my last >> chance. >> >> I am searching the ship on which my ancestors arrived in the >> New World. I believe my GGG grandfather ADALBERT KARL, >> spouse KATHARINA MULTRUS and their four children ROSA, JOHN, >> JOSEPH, and ALBERT from HRADZEN, BOHEMIA, AUSTRIA near >> PILSEN departed BREMEN in 1859. They do not show up in any >> incoming passenger lists in America. To no avail I have >> searched the Steve Morse site using the following wildcards: >> ada* ade* cat* kat* ros* joh* jos* alb* and surname kar* >> car* har* and ear*. This leads me to believe they did not >> enter through the U.S. >> >> The reason I believe they departed Bremen is because in >> the1860 U.S. Census from Allegany, NY they indicate they >> were from Bremen, Germany. However in every future census, >> they correctly state they are from Austria. In Adalbert's >> obituary from 1903 it states that he and his family of four >> mistakenly went to DAYTON, OHIO instead of DAYTONS SUMMIT, >> NEW YORK. >> >> Here is a summary of the records I have searched to date: >> >> a) Every U.S. arrival site - including the Steve Morse site >> - for every combination I can think of. b) All of the >> websites of pre-1865 passsenger lists for Canadian Arrivals >> on the Olive Tree Genealogy site. c) The "Germans To >> America" Series. d) "German Immigrants: Lists of Passengers >> Bound from Bremen to New York, 1855-1862" e) The Leo Baca >> Book "Czech Immigration Passenger Lists, Volumes 1-9 " f) I >> have requested citizenship records of Adalbert Karl in the >> hope that they would reveal the date and place of entry into >> the U.S. but Immigration wrote me that there is no record. >> He was naturalized in 1866 according to the local county >> records, but these shed no light on his date or mode of >> entry to the U.S.. g) I have written to the Ship List and >> other genealogy listservs in the hope of finding a morsel of >> information that I could follow up on. I posted on the >> Ancestry.com message boards and received a response from a >> gentleman apparently writing from the Czech Republic who >> informed me, I quote: >> >> "Accordings to the proceeding protocoll of Regional >> Office of Plzen asked on 1859 Adalbert Karl from Hradzen >> (Hradec u Stoda) for issuing of emigrant >> passport to USA.There is possible to see the proces of >> issuing of passport sep by step there. Adalbert can be >> recorded as Bohemian in the books of Leo Baca >> (Bohemian passanger lists). Look for them in some big >> library. The registers of Hradzen are in the archive in >> Plzen. You can search yourself ther or you can hire >> some of Czech researcher." >> >> While promising, my replies to this post requesting further >> information have never been answered. I am willing to accept >> that the absence of data means that my ancestors must have >> entered through Canada on some impossible-to-trace ship. But >> I must at least ask the question if there are any stones I >> have left unturned. >> >> My questions are this: what would be the typical route for a >> family from Austria, departing Bremen for America in 1859? >> Assuming they departed Bremen, would they have stopped in >> the British Isles? And would there be a record of this >> arrival or departure? And then, would they typically have >> arrived at Quebec if they were bound for Dayton? Once at >> Quebec, would their voyage to the wrong Dayton be via the >> U.S. or Canada? >> >> Thank you very much for any insight you can provide, >> Tony Buccella > > > -- Lorine McGinnis Schulze > > * Olive Tree Genealogy (Ships Passenger Lists) > http://olivetreegenealogy.com/ > * Naturalization Records > http://naturalizationrecords.com/ > * Images of Ships Lists > http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ships/ > > [email protected] or [email protected] > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

One song which all our ancestors have known was composed by Mozart. The text ist from 1775 and I am sure that looking back to your family during the holidays, you will find this familiar. Happy Advent's time..... For the song composed by Mozart, click here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMfwaT1X3oc text and sheet music here: http://www.lieder-archiv.de/lieder/show_song.php?ix=300479 from Aida

Urs, Thank you very much! That is indeed the family I was seeking. I also received a reply from Lorine McGinnis Schulze, who administers the Olive Tree Genealogy site, and she also found the ship in the Ancestry database. Apparently my ancestor Adalbert Karl was misindexed in that database as Balbert Kar. None of the search wildcards I used would have found that. It's ironic that it was so easy to find on the Castle Garden site, since that was the first site I tried when I started this process over a year ago. Unfortunately, I was a beginner at that time and I did not search the site using wildcards. Later, when I became aware of the Steve Morse site, which searches all of the ports with one inquiry, I never went back to the Castle Garden site and searched with wildcards, since I believed the portal I was using would cover that. Needless to say, I am very happy to have finally found them and am looking forward to obtaining a copy of the ship manifest. Again, thank you very much for your help! Tony Buccella ----- Original Message ----- From: "Urs Geiser" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Ship to Canada 1859 > Tony: > > From the Castle Garden (New York) website (http://castlegarden.org/): > > Arr. 7 Nov 1859, ship Republic, all from Bohemia, destination unknown: > ADALBERT KAR UNKNOWN 7 M > ADALBERT KAR FARMER 50 M > CATHARINE KAR FARMER 41 F > JOHANN KAR FARMER 17 M > JOSEPH KAR UNKNOWN 10 M > ROSALIA KAR UNKNOWN 19 > > Looks pretty promising! > > I looked for first name Adalbert in 1859 and found them right away. > > Urs Geiser (ugeiser AT xnet DOT com) > Woodridge (DuPage Co.), IL, USA > > [email protected] wrote: >> Hello listers! Sorry for the length of this post, but after exhausting >> every source I can think of, this is my last chance. >> >> I am searching the ship on which my ancestors arrived in the New World. I >> believe my GGG grandfather ADALBERT KARL, spouse KATHARINA MULTRUS and >> their four children ROSA, JOHN, JOSEPH, and ALBERT from HRADZEN, BOHEMIA, >> AUSTRIA near PILSEN departed BREMEN in 1859. They do not show up in any >> incoming passenger lists in America. To no avail I have searched the >> Steve Morse site using the following wildcards: ada* ade* cat* kat* ros* >> joh* jos* alb* and surname kar* car* har* and ear*. This leads me to >> believe they did not enter through the U.S. >> >> The reason I believe they departed Bremen is because in the1860 U.S. >> Census from Allegany, NY they indicate they were from Bremen, Germany. >> However in every future census, they correctly state they are from >> Austria. In Adalbert's obituary from 1903 it states that he and his >> family of four mistakenly went to DAYTON, OHIO instead of DAYTONS SUMMIT, >> NEW YORK. >> >> Here is a summary of the records I have searched to date: >> >> a) Every U.S. arrival site - including the Steve Morse site - for every >> combination I can think of. >> b) All of the websites of pre-1865 passsenger lists for Canadian Arrivals >> on the Olive Tree Genealogy site. >> c) The "Germans To America" Series. >> d) "German Immigrants: Lists of Passengers Bound from Bremen to New York, >> 1855-1862" >> e) The Leo Baca Book "Czech Immigration Passenger Lists, Volumes 1-9 " >> f) I have requested citizenship records of Adalbert Karl in the hope that >> they would reveal the date and place of entry into the U.S. but >> Immigration wrote me that there is no record. He was naturalized in 1866 >> according to the local county records, but these shed no light on his >> date or mode of entry to the U.S.. >> g) I have written to the Ship List and other genealogy listservs in the >> hope of finding a morsel of information that I could follow up on. I >> posted on the Ancestry.com message boards and received a response from a >> gentleman apparently writing from the Czech Republic who informed me, I >> quote: >> >> "Accordings to the proceeding protocoll of Regional Office of Plzen >> asked on 1859 Adalbert Karl from Hradzen (Hradec u Stoda) for issuing of >> emigrant passport to USA.There is possible to see the proces of >> issuing of passport sep by step there. Adalbert can be recorded as >> Bohemian in the books of Leo Baca (Bohemian passanger lists). >> Look for them in some big library. The registers of Hradzen are in the >> archive in Plzen. You can search yourself ther or you can hire some >> of Czech researcher." >> >> While promising, my replies to this post requesting further information >> have never been answered. I am willing to accept that the absence of data >> means that my ancestors must have entered through Canada on some >> impossible-to-trace ship. But I must at least ask the question if there >> are any stones I have left unturned. >> >> My questions are this: what would be the typical route for a family from >> Austria, departing Bremen for America in 1859? Assuming they departed >> Bremen, would they have stopped in the British Isles? And would there be >> a record of this arrival or departure? And then, would they typically >> have arrived at Quebec if they were bound for Dayton? Once at Quebec, >> would their voyage to the wrong Dayton be via the U.S. or Canada? >> >> Thank you very much for any insight you can provide, >> Tony Buccella > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Most of my Austrian family from Schladming, Steiermark, left from Bremen. But one traveled on a ship that sailed from Hamburg to LeHarve and then to NY. Another sailed from Antwerp to NY.   Some of us may never find the ship we are looking for because the manifest was never microfilmed. Either they were lost, or perhaps in such bad shape that they could not be read. If you go through the microfilm page by page there will be some pages with spilled ink, torn pages, etc.   Before computers a personal trip to the public library to look at the microfilm was all we could do. For those still having trouble that may still be an option. An index is a wonderful help. But sometimes the person we are looking for is missed, or the handwriting causes wild guesses.     LaVerne,  On Fri, 12/12/08, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: From: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Ship to Canada 1859 To: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 9:30 PM Hello listers! Sorry for the length of this post, but after exhausting every source I can think of, this is my last chance. I am searching the ship on which my ancestors arrived in the New World. I believe my GGG grandfather ADALBERT KARL, spouse KATHARINA MULTRUS and their four children ROSA, JOHN, JOSEPH, and ALBERT from HRADZEN, BOHEMIA, AUSTRIA near PILSEN departed BREMEN in 1859. They do not show up in any incoming passenger lists in America. To no avail I have searched the Steve Morse site using the following wildcards: ada* ade* cat* kat* ros* joh* jos* alb* and surname kar* car* har* and ear*. This leads me to believe they did not enter through the U.S. The reason I believe they departed Bremen is because in the1860 U.S. Census from Allegany, NY they indicate they were from Bremen, Germany. However in every future census, they correctly state they are from Austria. In Adalbert's obituary from 1903 it states that he and his family of four mistakenly went to DAYTON, OHIO instead of DAYTONS SUMMIT, NEW YORK. Here is a summary of the records I have searched to date: a) Every U.S. arrival site - including the Steve Morse site - for every combination I can think of. b) All of the websites of pre-1865 passsenger lists for Canadian Arrivals on the Olive Tree Genealogy site. c) The "Germans To America" Series. d) "German Immigrants: Lists of Passengers Bound from Bremen to New York, 1855-1862" e) The Leo Baca Book "Czech Immigration Passenger Lists, Volumes 1-9 " f) I have requested citizenship records of Adalbert Karl in the hope that they would reveal the date and place of entry into the U.S. but Immigration wrote me that there is no record. He was naturalized in 1866 according to the local county records, but these shed no light on his date or mode of entry to the U.S.. g) I have written to the Ship List and other genealogy listservs in the hope of finding a morsel of information that I could follow up on. I posted on the Ancestry.com message boards and received a response from a gentleman apparently writing from the Czech Republic who informed me, I quote: "Accordings to the proceeding protocoll of Regional Office of Plzen asked on 1859 Adalbert Karl from Hradzen (Hradec u Stoda) for issuing of emigrant passport to USA.There is possible to see the proces of issuing of passport sep by step there. Adalbert can be recorded as Bohemian in the books of Leo Baca (Bohemian passanger lists). Look for them in some big library. The registers of Hradzen are in the archive in Plzen. You can search yourself ther or you can hire some of Czech researcher." While promising, my replies to this post requesting further information have never been answered. I am willing to accept that the absence of data means that my ancestors must have entered through Canada on some impossible-to-trace ship. But I must at least ask the question if there are any stones I have left unturned. My questions are this: what would be the typical route for a family from Austria, departing Bremen for America in 1859? Assuming they departed Bremen, would they have stopped in the British Isles? And would there be a record of this arrival or departure? And then, would they typically have arrived at Quebec if they were bound for Dayton? Once at Quebec, would their voyage to the wrong Dayton be via the U.S. or Canada? Thank you very much for any insight you can provide, Tony Buccella German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

That is a wonderful tip. Is there any way from looking at the manifest to tell where or what village they came from? I know when they arrived and what ship but don't know how to proceed to find any further information. Thanks, Lisa -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Olive Tree Genealogy Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 7:32 AM To: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: [AUSTRIA] Ship to Canada 1859 Hello Tony You have done a great job of writing up your research and asking for help. I think I have found your Adalbert on the ships list "Republic" arriving NY 7 Nov. 1859 from Bremen. His origin is given as Bohemia, Czechoslovakia and he is 51 years old. I'm familiar with the NY lists and they are very difficult to read sometimes. Some passengers have no first name in the index. Some have only an initial. I found him by searching without any names at all and only using his date of birth (which was the only thing missing from your excellent query below) and his year of arrival. He is misindexed on Ancestry as "Balbert Kar" Had you searched with wildcards on surname for "kar*" and no first name, he should have shown up. But sometimes the Ancestry search glitches and a result will not appear one time, but will appear the next! In any case, with "Balbert" are the following individuals Adalbert b ca 1852 Catharine b ca 1818 Johann b ca 1842 Joseph b ca 1849 Rosalia b ca 1840 Enjoy :-) Lorine of OliveTreeGenealogy.com On 12 Dec 2008 at 22:30, [email protected] wrote: > Hello listers! Sorry for the length of this post, but after > exhausting every source I can think of, this is my last > chance. > > I am searching the ship on which my ancestors arrived in the > New World. I believe my GGG grandfather ADALBERT KARL, > spouse KATHARINA MULTRUS and their four children ROSA, JOHN, > JOSEPH, and ALBERT from HRADZEN, BOHEMIA, AUSTRIA near > PILSEN departed BREMEN in 1859. They do not show up in any > incoming passenger lists in America. To no avail I have > searched the Steve Morse site using the following wildcards: > ada* ade* cat* kat* ros* joh* jos* alb* and surname kar* > car* har* and ear*. This leads me to believe they did not > enter through the U.S. > > The reason I believe they departed Bremen is because in > the1860 U.S. Census from Allegany, NY they indicate they > were from Bremen, Germany. However in every future census, > they correctly state they are from Austria. In Adalbert's > obituary from 1903 it states that he and his family of four > mistakenly went to DAYTON, OHIO instead of DAYTONS SUMMIT, > NEW YORK. > > Here is a summary of the records I have searched to date: > > a) Every U.S. arrival site - including the Steve Morse site > - for every combination I can think of. b) All of the > websites of pre-1865 passsenger lists for Canadian Arrivals > on the Olive Tree Genealogy site. c) The "Germans To > America" Series. d) "German Immigrants: Lists of Passengers > Bound from Bremen to New York, 1855-1862" e) The Leo Baca > Book "Czech Immigration Passenger Lists, Volumes 1-9 " f) I > have requested citizenship records of Adalbert Karl in the > hope that they would reveal the date and place of entry into > the U.S. but Immigration wrote me that there is no record. > He was naturalized in 1866 according to the local county > records, but these shed no light on his date or mode of > entry to the U.S.. g) I have written to the Ship List and > other genealogy listservs in the hope of finding a morsel of > information that I could follow up on. I posted on the > Ancestry.com message boards and received a response from a > gentleman apparently writing from the Czech Republic who > informed me, I quote: > > "Accordings to the proceeding protocoll of Regional > Office of Plzen asked on 1859 Adalbert Karl from Hradzen > (Hradec u Stoda) for issuing of emigrant > passport to USA.There is possible to see the proces of > issuing of passport sep by step there. Adalbert can be > recorded as Bohemian in the books of Leo Baca > (Bohemian passanger lists). Look for them in some big > library. The registers of Hradzen are in the archive in > Plzen. You can search yourself ther or you can hire > some of Czech researcher." > > While promising, my replies to this post requesting further > information have never been answered. I am willing to accept > that the absence of data means that my ancestors must have > entered through Canada on some impossible-to-trace ship. But > I must at least ask the question if there are any stones I > have left unturned. > > My questions are this: what would be the typical route for a > family from Austria, departing Bremen for America in 1859? > Assuming they departed Bremen, would they have stopped in > the British Isles? And would there be a record of this > arrival or departure? And then, would they typically have > arrived at Quebec if they were bound for Dayton? Once at > Quebec, would their voyage to the wrong Dayton be via the > U.S. or Canada? > > Thank you very much for any insight you can provide, > Tony Buccella -- Lorine McGinnis Schulze * Olive Tree Genealogy (Ships Passenger Lists) http://olivetreegenealogy.com/ * Naturalization Records http://naturalizationrecords.com/ * Images of Ships Lists http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ships/ [email protected] or [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

(Something went wrong the first time I tried to reply. Sorry if this is a repeat for some of you. UG) Tony: From the Castle Garden (New York) website (http://castlegarden.org/): Arr. 7 Nov 1859, ship Republic, all from Bohemia, destination unknown: ADALBERT KAR UNKNOWN 7 M ADALBERT KAR FARMER 50 M CATHARINE KAR FARMER 41 F JOHANN KAR FARMER 17 M JOSEPH KAR UNKNOWN 10 M ROSALIA KAR UNKNOWN 19 Looks pretty promising! I looked for first name Adalbert in 1859 and found them right away. Urs Geiser (ugeiser AT xnet DOT com) Woodridge (DuPage Co.), IL, USA [email protected] wrote: > Hello listers! Sorry for the length of this post, but after exhausting every source I can think of, this is my last chance. > > I am searching the ship on which my ancestors arrived in the New World. I believe my GGG grandfather ADALBERT KARL, spouse KATHARINA MULTRUS and their four children ROSA, JOHN, JOSEPH, and ALBERT from HRADZEN, BOHEMIA, AUSTRIA near PILSEN departed BREMEN in 1859. They do not show up in any incoming passenger lists in America. To no avail I have searched the Steve Morse site using the following wildcards: ada* ade* cat* kat* ros* joh* jos* alb* and surname kar* car* har* and ear*. This leads me to believe they did not enter through the U.S. > > The reason I believe they departed Bremen is because in the1860 U.S. Census from Allegany, NY they indicate they were from Bremen, Germany. However in every future census, they correctly state they are from Austria. In Adalbert's obituary from 1903 it states that he and his family of four mistakenly went to DAYTON, OHIO instead of DAYTONS SUMMIT, NEW YORK. > > Here is a summary of the records I have searched to date: > > a) Every U.S. arrival site - including the Steve Morse site - for every combination I can think of. > b) All of the websites of pre-1865 passsenger lists for Canadian Arrivals on the Olive Tree Genealogy site. > c) The "Germans To America" Series. > d) "German Immigrants: Lists of Passengers Bound from Bremen to New York, 1855-1862" > e) The Leo Baca Book "Czech Immigration Passenger Lists, Volumes 1-9 " > f) I have requested citizenship records of Adalbert Karl in the hope that they would reveal the date and place of entry into the U.S. but Immigration wrote me that there is no record. He was naturalized in 1866 according to the local county records, but these shed no light on his date or mode of entry to the U.S.. > g) I have written to the Ship List and other genealogy listservs in the hope of finding a morsel of information that I could follow up on. I posted on the Ancestry.com message boards and received a response from a gentleman apparently writing from the Czech Republic who informed me, I quote: > > "Accordings to the proceeding protocoll of Regional Office of Plzen asked on 1859 Adalbert Karl from Hradzen (Hradec u Stoda) for issuing of emigrant passport to USA.There is possible to see the proces of issuing of passport sep by step there. Adalbert can be recorded as Bohemian in the books of Leo Baca (Bohemian passanger lists). Look for them in some big library. The registers of Hradzen are in the archive in Plzen. You can search yourself ther or you can hire some of Czech researcher." > > While promising, my replies to this post requesting further information have never been answered. I am willing to accept that the absence of data means that my ancestors must have entered through Canada on some impossible-to-trace ship. But I must at least ask the question if there are any stones I have left unturned. > > My questions are this: what would be the typical route for a family from Austria, departing Bremen for America in 1859? Assuming they departed Bremen, would they have stopped in the British Isles? And would there be a record of this arrival or departure? And then, would they typically have arrived at Quebec if they were bound for Dayton? Once at Quebec, would their voyage to the wrong Dayton be via the U.S. or Canada? > > Thank you very much for any insight you can provide, > Tony Buccella

Tony: From the Castle Garden (New York) website (http://castlegarden.org/): Arr. 7 Nov 1859, ship Republic, all from Bohemia, destination unknown: ADALBERT KAR UNKNOWN 7 M ADALBERT KAR FARMER 50 M CATHARINE KAR FARMER 41 F JOHANN KAR FARMER 17 M JOSEPH KAR UNKNOWN 10 M ROSALIA KAR UNKNOWN 19 Looks pretty promising! I looked for first name Adalbert in 1859 and found them right away. Urs Geiser (ugeiser AT xnet DOT com) Woodridge (DuPage Co.), IL, USA [email protected] wrote: > Hello listers! Sorry for the length of this post, but after exhausting every source I can think of, this is my last chance. > > I am searching the ship on which my ancestors arrived in the New World. I believe my GGG grandfather ADALBERT KARL, spouse KATHARINA MULTRUS and their four children ROSA, JOHN, JOSEPH, and ALBERT from HRADZEN, BOHEMIA, AUSTRIA near PILSEN departed BREMEN in 1859. They do not show up in any incoming passenger lists in America. To no avail I have searched the Steve Morse site using the following wildcards: ada* ade* cat* kat* ros* joh* jos* alb* and surname kar* car* har* and ear*. This leads me to believe they did not enter through the U.S. > > The reason I believe they departed Bremen is because in the1860 U.S. Census from Allegany, NY they indicate they were from Bremen, Germany. However in every future census, they correctly state they are from Austria. In Adalbert's obituary from 1903 it states that he and his family of four mistakenly went to DAYTON, OHIO instead of DAYTONS SUMMIT, NEW YORK. > > Here is a summary of the records I have searched to date: > > a) Every U.S. arrival site - including the Steve Morse site - for every combination I can think of. > b) All of the websites of pre-1865 passsenger lists for Canadian Arrivals on the Olive Tree Genealogy site. > c) The "Germans To America" Series. > d) "German Immigrants: Lists of Passengers Bound from Bremen to New York, 1855-1862" > e) The Leo Baca Book "Czech Immigration Passenger Lists, Volumes 1-9 " > f) I have requested citizenship records of Adalbert Karl in the hope that they would reveal the date and place of entry into the U.S. but Immigration wrote me that there is no record. He was naturalized in 1866 according to the local county records, but these shed no light on his date or mode of entry to the U.S.. > g) I have written to the Ship List and other genealogy listservs in the hope of finding a morsel of information that I could follow up on. I posted on the Ancestry.com message boards and received a response from a gentleman apparently writing from the Czech Republic who informed me, I quote: > > "Accordings to the proceeding protocoll of Regional Office of Plzen asked on 1859 Adalbert Karl from Hradzen (Hradec u Stoda) for issuing of emigrant passport to USA.There is possible to see the proces of issuing of passport sep by step there. Adalbert can be recorded as Bohemian in the books of Leo Baca (Bohemian passanger lists). Look for them in some big library. The registers of Hradzen are in the archive in Plzen. You can search yourself ther or you can hire some of Czech researcher." > > While promising, my replies to this post requesting further information have never been answered. I am willing to accept that the absence of data means that my ancestors must have entered through Canada on some impossible-to-trace ship. But I must at least ask the question if there are any stones I have left unturned. > > My questions are this: what would be the typical route for a family from Austria, departing Bremen for America in 1859? Assuming they departed Bremen, would they have stopped in the British Isles? And would there be a record of this arrival or departure? And then, would they typically have arrived at Quebec if they were bound for Dayton? Once at Quebec, would their voyage to the wrong Dayton be via the U.S. or Canada? > > Thank you very much for any insight you can provide, > Tony Buccella

Hello listers! Sorry for the length of this post, but after exhausting every source I can think of, this is my last chance. I am searching the ship on which my ancestors arrived in the New World. I believe my GGG grandfather ADALBERT KARL, spouse KATHARINA MULTRUS and their four children ROSA, JOHN, JOSEPH, and ALBERT from HRADZEN, BOHEMIA, AUSTRIA near PILSEN departed BREMEN in 1859. They do not show up in any incoming passenger lists in America. To no avail I have searched the Steve Morse site using the following wildcards: ada* ade* cat* kat* ros* joh* jos* alb* and surname kar* car* har* and ear*. This leads me to believe they did not enter through the U.S. The reason I believe they departed Bremen is because in the1860 U.S. Census from Allegany, NY they indicate they were from Bremen, Germany. However in every future census, they correctly state they are from Austria. In Adalbert's obituary from 1903 it states that he and his family of four mistakenly went to DAYTON, OHIO instead of DAYTONS SUMMIT, NEW YORK. Here is a summary of the records I have searched to date: a) Every U.S. arrival site - including the Steve Morse site - for every combination I can think of. b) All of the websites of pre-1865 passsenger lists for Canadian Arrivals on the Olive Tree Genealogy site. c) The "Germans To America" Series. d) "German Immigrants: Lists of Passengers Bound from Bremen to New York, 1855-1862" e) The Leo Baca Book "Czech Immigration Passenger Lists, Volumes 1-9 " f) I have requested citizenship records of Adalbert Karl in the hope that they would reveal the date and place of entry into the U.S. but Immigration wrote me that there is no record. He was naturalized in 1866 according to the local county records, but these shed no light on his date or mode of entry to the U.S.. g) I have written to the Ship List and other genealogy listservs in the hope of finding a morsel of information that I could follow up on. I posted on the Ancestry.com message boards and received a response from a gentleman apparently writing from the Czech Republic who informed me, I quote: "Accordings to the proceeding protocoll of Regional Office of Plzen asked on 1859 Adalbert Karl from Hradzen (Hradec u Stoda) for issuing of emigrant passport to USA.There is possible to see the proces of issuing of passport sep by step there. Adalbert can be recorded as Bohemian in the books of Leo Baca (Bohemian passanger lists). Look for them in some big library. The registers of Hradzen are in the archive in Plzen. You can search yourself ther or you can hire some of Czech researcher." While promising, my replies to this post requesting further information have never been answered. I am willing to accept that the absence of data means that my ancestors must have entered through Canada on some impossible-to-trace ship. But I must at least ask the question if there are any stones I have left unturned. My questions are this: what would be the typical route for a family from Austria, departing Bremen for America in 1859? Assuming they departed Bremen, would they have stopped in the British Isles? And would there be a record of this arrival or departure? And then, would they typically have arrived at Quebec if they were bound for Dayton? Once at Quebec, would their voyage to the wrong Dayton be via the U.S. or Canada? Thank you very much for any insight you can provide, Tony Buccella

To Tony Buccella: Dear Tony: In my experience most people from Austria Hungary, especially from Bohemia traveled to Bremen, but if they lived in the South of Austria, many travel to the US via Trieste. Now this is Yugoslavia, but it belonged to Austria Hungary then. The landed not only at Ellis Island but also Galveston, Texas, Baltimore, Maryland, and they could have come to the States via Canada. You have done a tremendous search and we can eliminate repetitive information. Here is another source you might not have looked at, there are several links of immigrants arriving through Canada: http://www.dcs.uwaterloo.ca/~marj/genealogy/thevoyage.html and if all possibilities come up negative, I would suggest to you that you might search in the Austrian Hungarian Military records. Your ancestor would not have been able to leave the country, if he had not completed his military service... although some of them "escaped" and then they preferred to ship out from Rotterdam, or other Holland harbors. It depended on where they had connections. For military research you can contact the Family Research Center (Mormon Church in your community) and request that they look in the Family History Library Catalog under title "Grundbuchblätter-Diverse" were the Austrian Hungarian Servicemen are listed in alphabetical order. There are several microfilms and each is $6.00 (rental fee) so check out only microfilm numbers for the alphabet you will need. If you find your ancestor there, usually you will find his place of origin, the names of his parents. But if you want even more information on him, you can find his regiment by the location where he was drafted, and then you can go to the regimental records where his service, health records, appearance (height, hair and eye color) etc is recorded. The people at the Family Research Centers are very helpful and it takes just a few weeks for the microfilm to arrive at the Center where they have microfilm readers for you to use. The names are typewritten, but the records are handwritten and you can make copies of it. You will also get the latest status on their databases, because some it now databased and accessible by computer. I have not searched there for a while, but when I did, I found the place of origin of my ancestor in the Grundbuchblätter, which is the first step. I hope that this will help you open another door of possibility. Aida On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 7:30 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Hello listers! Sorry for the length of this post, but after exhausting > every source I can think of, this is my last chance. > > I am searching the ship on which my ancestors arrived in the New World. I > believe my GGG grandfather ADALBERT KARL, spouse KATHARINA MULTRUS and their > four children ROSA, JOHN, JOSEPH, and ALBERT from HRADZEN, BOHEMIA, AUSTRIA > near PILSEN departed BREMEN in 1859. They do not show up in any incoming > passenger lists in America. To no avail I have searched the Steve Morse site > using the following wildcards: ada* ade* cat* kat* ros* joh* jos* alb* and > surname kar* car* har* and ear*. This leads me to believe they did not enter > through the U.S. > > The reason I believe they departed Bremen is because in the1860 U.S. Census > from Allegany, NY they indicate they were from Bremen, Germany. However in > every future census, they correctly state they are from Austria. In > Adalbert's obituary from 1903 it states that he and his family of four > mistakenly went to DAYTON, OHIO instead of DAYTONS SUMMIT, NEW YORK. > > Here is a summary of the records I have searched to date: > > a) Every U.S. arrival site - including the Steve Morse site - for every > combination I can think of. > b) All of the websites of pre-1865 passsenger lists for Canadian Arrivals > on the Olive Tree Genealogy site. > c) The "Germans To America" Series. > d) "German Immigrants: Lists of Passengers Bound from Bremen to New York, > 1855-1862" > e) The Leo Baca Book "Czech Immigration Passenger Lists, Volumes 1-9 " > f) I have requested citizenship records of Adalbert Karl in the hope that > they would reveal the date and place of entry into the U.S. but Immigration > wrote me that there is no record. He was naturalized in 1866 according to > the local county records, but these shed no light on his date or mode of > entry to the U.S.. > g) I have written to the Ship List and other genealogy listservs in the > hope of finding a morsel of information that I could follow up on. I posted > on the Ancestry.com message boards and received a response from a gentleman > apparently writing from the Czech Republic who informed me, I quote: > > "Accordings to the proceeding protocoll of Regional Office of Plzen > asked on 1859 Adalbert Karl from Hradzen (Hradec u Stoda) for issuing of > emigrant passport to USA.There is possible to see the proces of > issuing of passport sep by step there. Adalbert can be recorded as Bohemian > in the books of Leo Baca (Bohemian passanger lists). Look for them > in some big library. The registers of Hradzen are in the archive in Plzen. > You can search yourself ther or you can hire some of Czech researcher." > > While promising, my replies to this post requesting further information > have never been answered. I am willing to accept that the absence of data > means that my ancestors must have entered through Canada on some > impossible-to-trace ship. But I must at least ask the question if there are > any stones I have left unturned. > > My questions are this: what would be the typical route for a family from > Austria, departing Bremen for America in 1859? Assuming they departed > Bremen, would they have stopped in the British Isles? And would there be a > record of this arrival or departure? And then, would they typically have > arrived at Quebec if they were bound for Dayton? Once at Quebec, would their > voyage to the wrong Dayton be via the U.S. or Canada? > > Thank you very much for any insight you can provide, > Tony Buccella > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi, for such problems, you always should consider having a look into sources like Orts-Repertorium des Koenigreiches Boehmen (changing correct "Umlaute" to "ungerman" oe), edited on basis of the 1910-census by the Boehmische k.k. Statthalterei in 1913; there you will find three places called Kocin (with "hatschek" on c and correctly í with accent instead of i) plus numbers given for "Umg.-Spr. d." or "b", meaning: "Umgangssprache deutsch" or "boehmisch", i.e. mainly used language, as for the place you look for, on pages 284, 323 and 384 (first and last one also being Ortsgemeinden / municipalities, the second one only Ortsbestandteil, but I'm too tired, always to explain the difference; I wrote a book about that problem in the 80s). But, of course, even allegedly all-czech("boehmisch")-speaking population in 1910 (as in both municipalities named Kocin) doesn't exclude the possibility of later explicit "german" people in that villages, even at exactly that time (I had several ex! amples for several aspects of such problems in some family histories, including later "germanization" of czech names and other problems, which make it nearly impossible, to clearly seperate between "czech" and "german" inhabitants). "Near Pilsen" obviously means the one on p. 284, the municipality in district Kralovice / Kralowitz greetings from Linz Hermann Rafetseder > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 16:46:05 -0800 (PST) > From: Patricia Moos <[email protected]> > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] (no subject) > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Hi, > I am new to the list.??My great grandparents?were from the Kocin area?west of Pilsen, and they came to Baltimore in the 1880's.? They spoke German as?their first language, but they also spoke Czech. > ? > However, after reading archived posts of this?list and after looking?at maps of the Sudetenland, Egerland, etc., it looks as though Kocin?was?not within the German-Bohemian part of the Austria-Hungary.? Can anyone explain this? > ?

Yes, thanks, we know all that and we have applied the diacrits before, only then, most of the computers here do not recognize them and the printout of the geographical name makes the word unreadable. Therefore Kocin instead of Kočin is preferable in e-mail transmissions. Danke vielmals, because even without the diacrits the geographical location can easily be found at www.mapy.cz Aida ------------------- On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 9:05 AM, Hermann Rafetseder <[email protected]>wrote: > Hi, > > for such problems, you always should consider having a look into sources > like Orts-Repertorium des Koenigreiches Boehmen (changing correct "Umlaute" > to "ungerman" oe), edited on basis of the 1910-census by the Boehmische k.k. > Statthalterei in 1913; there you will find three places called Kocin (with > "hatschek" on c and correctly í with accent instead of i) plus numbers given > for "Umg.-Spr. d." or "b", meaning: "Umgangssprache deutsch" or "boehmisch", > i.e. mainly used language, as for the place you look for, on pages 284, 323 > and 384 (first and last one also being Ortsgemeinden / municipalities, the > second one only Ortsbestandteil, but I'm too tired, always to explain the > difference; I wrote a book about that problem in the 80s). But, of course, > even allegedly all-czech("boehmisch")-speaking population in 1910 (as in > both municipalities named Kocin) doesn't exclude the possibility of later > explicit "german" people in that villages, even at exactly that time (I had > several examples for several aspects of such problems in some family > histories, including later "germanization" of czech names and other > problems, which make it nearly impossible, to clearly seperate between > "czech" and "german" inhabitants). "Near Pilsen" obviously means the one on > p. 284, the municipality in district Kralovice / Kralowitz > > greetings from Linz > > Hermann Rafetseder > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 16:46:05 -0800 (PST) > > From: Patricia Moos <[email protected]> > > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] (no subject) > > To: [email protected] > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > > Hi, > > I am new to the list.??My great grandparents?were from the Kocin > area?west of Pilsen, and they came to Baltimore in the 1880's.? They spoke > German as?their first language, but they also spoke Czech. > > ? > > However, after reading archived posts of this?list and after looking?at > maps of the Sudetenland, Egerland, etc., it looks as though Kocin?was?not > within the German-Bohemian part of the Austria-Hungary.? Can anyone explain > this? > > ? > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

First of all, ALL of Bohemia, Moravia and Slovakia was Austria Hungary, as was Hungary, part of Poland (Galicia), Transylvania and Banat in Romania, Slowenia, Croatia, Slavonia Yugoslavia, Tyrol in Italy and part of the Ukraine. I will send to you two little maps to your email address, which explains how the old Monarchy was chopped up after WW1. In 1880 when your ancestors arrived here in America, the Monarchy was still intact and one large country - all citizens being Austrian Hungarians regardless of their ethnicity. Under the Monarchy we see a United Europe just as they are now reestablishing - only larger under a Democracy. The split of the Monarchy after WW 1 made Europe fall apart and because people could not live with the splitting up of their ethnic homelands, it became the cause of WW2. You have to go to www.mapy.cz, search for Kocin and when you have the Czech map, look for the word "dalsi" click there and then click on the word "historicka" and the old Austrian map will come up. Look if Kocin has a German name. If it does, it was a German settlement, if it does not, it was a Czech settlement. Aida On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 4:46 PM, Patricia Moos <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi, > I am new to the list. My great grandparents were from the Kocin area west > of Pilsen, and they came to Baltimore in the 1880's. They spoke German > as their first language, but they also spoke Czech. > > However, after reading archived posts of this list and after looking at > maps of the Sudetenland, Egerland, etc., it looks as though Kocin was not > within the German-Bohemian part of the Austria-Hungary. Can anyone explain > this? > > Thanks, > > Pat > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi, I am new to the list.  My great grandparents were from the Kocin area west of Pilsen, and they came to Baltimore in the 1880's.  They spoke German as their first language, but they also spoke Czech.   However, after reading archived posts of this list and after looking at maps of the Sudetenland, Egerland, etc., it looks as though Kocin was not within the German-Bohemian part of the Austria-Hungary.  Can anyone explain this?   Thanks,   Pat

I found a new posting on the Bukowina List (Buchenland) of settlers from the Bohemian Forest. I believe that I have read a few of these surnames in the roll calls on our GBHS List. If you are researching the origin of any of the surnames given below, you could possibly get a result by matching the name of origin with a location in Bohemia if you contact the Schapers who have researched the places of origin of these Bukowina settlers. Aida Here is the link: Adolf und Irmtraud Schaper* - *adolf.schaper @ t-online.de* *Fliederstr. 21, 33175 Bad Lippspringe, Deutschland* **Surnames: *Baumgartner, Beer, Beleka, Binder, Boborowski, Eigner, Flachs, Fuchs, Hable, Hackel, Hackl, Hartinger, Heiden, Herzer, Hoffmann, Hones, Kondermann, Kisslinger, Kuffner, Landauer, Lang, Neuburger, Przybilla, Rankel, Rankl, Reitmajer, Schindelar, Schuster, Seidel, Seidl, Stöhr, Tischler *Family Origins: *Böhmerwald *Bukovina Towns: *Pojana Mikuli, Dumbrava bei Cornu Luncii 5 Oct 2008

Has anyone used this web site? http://www.webgenealogie.de/

We would believe that, since you posted to the list of which she obviously belongs. Are you someone we should be worried about? I'll save the post---just in case; IP addresses yield good info. Or, maybe you're just joking????? Not sure we get it. SMK On Dec 3, 2008, at 6:15 PM, [email protected] wrote: > Would you believe my wife belongs to the German-Bohemian Heritage > Society . > > > In a message dated 12/3/2008 12:40:21 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > > > **************Stay in touch with ALL of your friends: update your > AIM, Bebo, > Facebook, and MySpace pages with just one click. The NEW AOL.com. > (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new- > dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000012) > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/ > ~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Would you believe my wife belongs to the German-Bohemian Heritage Society . In a message dated 12/3/2008 12:40:21 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email protected] writes: **************Stay in touch with ALL of your friends: update your AIM, Bebo, Facebook, and MySpace pages with just one click. The NEW AOL.com. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000012)

Here is a link to a script sample from Germany from the year 1492; it is the recording of a lease, note that the amounts are still written in Roman numericals. The Sutterlin script started rather late, prior to Sutterlin they used a script called "Kurrent" and before that they used "Amtschrift." In grade 1 we learned to print letter in Latin, in grade two we learned the "Kurrent" style flowing letters used for 3 centuries in Austrian schools, in grade 4, when the Sudetenland was incorporated into the German school system, we learned Sutterlin, but returned to Latin lettering in the Lyzeum because of foreign language subjects: like Latin, English, and French. Grammar school was 4 years, after that children were separated to their abilities at age 10-11. They eihter continued with 4 years "Bürgerschule" (Burgher Schools) to education grade 8 and thereafter entering a trade with 3 years Craftsman school. OR they entered "Mittelschule" (equivant to American High School) for 6 years Highschool receiving a "Reifezeugnis" (High school Diploma). ORyou were selected for 8 years of pre-academic training and then you were educated at the "Oberschule" which was a "Gymnasium" for boys, or "Lyzeum" for Girls. Greek was added in the 10th year. Graduation from a Gymnasium or Lyzeum is equivalent to a Prep School Diploma here in this country. This should answer the questions several people have asked me about German and Austrian schooling. I am unhappy to say, that the school system in Germany is presently falling behind at an alarming rate. At present Canada stands in first rank and the US in last. http://www.suetterlinschrift.de/Lese/Sutterlin17.htm You may want to keep the lettering shown on the bottom of this page. Aida

If anyone out there is in the Los Angles area, the Czechoslovakia Area Genealogy Club is having their Christmas meeting at Zina's, a Czech food restaurant with an authentic Czech cook, on December 7 at 1:30pm. They will be opening at that time for our group, but anyone can join us there. Just email me, and I'll give you directions on how to get there. Anettka **************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002)