*And here you can find the church registers for Haberles in the Chrobold tome at the parish of Frauenthal (Frantoly). Before that the population was recorded at Christiansberg; this area is South of Prachatitz/Prachatice. If you need someone to abstract information for you, I can recommend my researcher Jacub Schmid who has been doing a lot of work for many people on our list. You can actually go back to 1645!!!* *Aida* *Bemerkungen*: - 1645-1756 gehörten zu Pfarrei Chrobold auch Orte der Pfarrei * Frauenthal*. - In den ältesten Kirchenbüchern finden sich viele Einträge der jüngeren Pfarreien wie Christiansberg. - Alle Matriken sind schon verfilmt und es werden nur Filme ausgeliehen. - Die Orte befinden sich südlich von Prachatitz. Band Matriken-Art Pfarrorte Jahrg�nge von/bis 1 * Pfarrbezirk 1645-1669 i/s 2 * Pfarrbezirk 1677-1737 i/s oo 1666-1749 i/s + 1666-1743 i/s 3 * Pfarrbezirk 1737-1786 i/s + 1743-1786 i/s 4 * Pfarrbezirk 1786-1830 5 * Pfarrbezirk 1831-1881 6 oo Pfarrbezirk 1750-1786 i/s 7 oo Pfarrbezirk 1786-1881 8 + Pfarrbezirk 1786-1843*Index-B�cher* (alph. Namensregister): 9 Index * Pfarrbezirk 1646-1664 10 Index * Pfarrbezirk 1677-1786 oo + 1666-1786 Abkürzungen: * = births, baptisms / Geburts- oder Tauf-Buch bzw. -Matrik oo = marriages / Heirats- oder Trau-Buch bzw. -Matrik + = deaths, burials / Sterbe-Buch bzw. -Matrik, Beerdigungen i = this section indexed, at least partially / mit Register/Namens-Index (alphabetisch), mindestens teilweise i/s = separates Buch mit Index Ortsname deutsch / tschechisch:Chrobold <http://www.genealogy.net/reg/SUD/orte/C.html> = Chroboly Luzerier = Lučenice Haberles = Ovesn� Planskus = Plansk� Schreinetschlag = Skř�něřov Zaborz = Z�hoř� Frauenthal = FrantolyPrachatitz <http://www.genealogy.net/reg/SUD/orte/P.html#prachatitz> = Prachatice

Aida Kraus to german-bohemian show details 3:58 PM (0 minutes ago) Ah Larry.... I guess it is not Haberkladrau after all.... I did a bit of searching and I came across a village name of Haberle after all, and it is near Prachatitz (Prachatitze). Watch your yahoo mail, I will send you a clipping of a little map I found. The link is the same as I sent to you early, but it is not the thumbnail No. 1 but the thumbnail No. 2. So go back to it and look at it. The historicka reveals a Haberles!!! So, here I have learned something, too. Aida http://www.mapy.cz/#[email protected][email protected][email protected][email protected][email protected][email protected][email protected][email protected]=11 On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Larry Klauser <[email protected]>wrote: > Dear Aida: > > Like others, I can not thank you enough for the continuous education that > you provide. I always look forward to opening your responses. It seems > that I have failed "Sudetenland map reading 101". I am unable to find my > ancestors town of Haberles (Ovesne as it is now known) with reference to the > Sudetenland border. I think it is near the edge but I am not sure. As > always, thanks for your wisdom, knowledge and guidance. > > Larry Klauser > > --- On Tue, 1/5/10, Aida Kraus <[email protected]> wrote: > > From: Aida Kraus <[email protected]> > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Obsolete Villages in Bohemia > To: "german-bohemian" <[email protected]> > Date: Tuesday, January 5, 2010, 12:57 PM > > Here is a link to villages and buildings which are no longer in existence > in > the Czech Republic. While the Czechs confiscated German property after WW2 > (1945) in the Sudetenland and were trying to repopulate the area with > 800,000 Czech new settlers, the enormous void created by the 3,2 Million > Germans is quite visible on this map. However, please consider that some > of > the villages on the Western border were bulldozed to allow a clear cut > along > the length of the Iron Curtain against the West. To the North, Saxony, and > then Communist East Germany, there was no such installation. These red > dots represent emptied out German villages to the most part. This is not a > representation of the German presence in Bohemia, because that was much > greater. These red dots are merely obsolete villages you can click on to > get a global positioning and the German and Czech name. You can then go to > www.mapy.cz > to zoom in on the area by satellite. You can go very close to individual > properties and houses. > With this map and alphabetical index of villages in Czech and German > languages, you will be able to better locate the place of your ancestors > that might no longer exist and I hope that this will help you out of a dead > ended research block. > Submitted by Aida > > http://www.zanikleobce.cz/index.php?menu=22%20title= > http://www.zanikleobce.cz/index.php?menu=93 > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Ah Larry.... I guess it is not Haberkladrau after all.... I did a bit of searching and I came across a village name of Haberle after all, and it is near Prachatitz (Prachatitze). Watch your yahoo mail, I will send you a clipping of a little map I found. The link is the same as I sent to you early, but it is not the thumbnail No. 1 but the thumbnail No. 2. So go back to it and look at it. The historicka reveals a Haberles!!! So, here I have learned something, too. Aida http://www.mapy.cz/#[email protected][email protected][email protected][email protected][email protected][email protected][email protected][email protected]=11 ------------------------------------------ On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Larry Klauser <[email protected]>wrote: > Dear Aida: > > Like others, I can not thank you enough for the continuous education that > you provide. I always look forward to opening your responses. It seems > that I have failed "Sudetenland map reading 101". I am unable to find my > ancestors town of Haberles (Ovesne as it is now known) with reference to the > Sudetenland border. I think it is near the edge but I am not sure. As > always, thanks for your wisdom, knowledge and guidance. > > Larry Klauser > > --- On Tue, 1/5/10, Aida Kraus <[email protected]> wrote: > > From: Aida Kraus <[email protected]> > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Obsolete Villages in Bohemia > To: "german-bohemian" <[email protected]> > Date: Tuesday, January 5, 2010, 12:57 PM > > Here is a link to villages and buildings which are no longer in existence > in > the Czech Republic. While the Czechs confiscated German property after WW2 > (1945) in the Sudetenland and were trying to repopulate the area with > 800,000 Czech new settlers, the enormous void created by the 3,2 Million > Germans is quite visible on this map. However, please consider that some > of > the villages on the Western border were bulldozed to allow a clear cut > along > the length of the Iron Curtain against the West. To the North, Saxony, and > then Communist East Germany, there was no such installation. These red > dots represent emptied out German villages to the most part. This is not a > representation of the German presence in Bohemia, because that was much > greater. These red dots are merely obsolete villages you can click on to > get a global positioning and the German and Czech name. You can then go to > www.mapy.cz > to zoom in on the area by satellite. You can go very close to individual > properties and houses. > With this map and alphabetical index of villages in Czech and German > languages, you will be able to better locate the place of your ancestors > that might no longer exist and I hope that this will help you out of a dead > ended research block. > Submitted by Aida > > http://www.zanikleobce.cz/index.php?menu=22%20title= > http://www.zanikleobce.cz/index.php?menu=93 > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I am sure I sent you all that not too long ago, Bill. Don't make double work for me!!!!... it is not fair to others. Keep what I sent to you....All you have to to is copy what I sent you or go to the BH archives and look through them. If you go to the Bischofteinitz website, I sent you in September, you will find everything about Unterhütte! Aida It is listed in the Ortslexikon as "Unterhütte. " In the German text of the Bischofteinitz website it is listed as "Unterhütten", and it is the same Village. It says: near Schwarzach district Bischofteinitz, Gebiet (area) Ronsperg, West Bohemia. Had 428 German population, Muttersdorf is NE You may also go to this website for more detail: http://www.bischofteinitz.de/orte/unterhuetten.htm Translation of that website at: http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en Czech name: Dolni Hut (if you want to see the location on www.mapy.cz, key in the Czech name, then click on historicka for the old German map. Hope this is of help. Aida On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Bill Forshay <[email protected]> wrote: > Aida: > > I think my wife's family came from Unterhutten. At least there are > family names there (Fleischman, Paa, & Wild). I know the village is no > longer there, it was bulldozed down, but I could not find it on your map. > Could you tell me where it is located? > > Bill Forshay - San Antonio, TX > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Aida Kraus <[email protected]> > To: german-bohemian <[email protected]> > Sent: Tue, January 5, 2010 12:57:03 PM > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Obsolete Villages in Bohemia > > Here is a link to villages and buildings which are no longer in existence > in > the Czech Republic. While the Czechs confiscated German property after WW2 > (1945) in the Sudetenland and were trying to repopulate the area with > 800,000 Czech new settlers, the enormous void created by the 3,2 Million > Germans is quite visible on this map. However, please consider that some > of > the villages on the Western border were bulldozed to allow a clear cut > along > the length of the Iron Curtain against the West. To the North, Saxony, and > then Communist East Germany, there was no such installation. These red > dots represent emptied out German villages to the most part. This is not a > representation of the German presence in Bohemia, because that was much > greater. These red dots are merely obsolete villages you can click on to > get a global positioning and the German and Czech name. You can then go to > www.mapy.cz > to zoom in on the area by satellite. You can go very close to individual > properties and houses. > With this map and alphabetical index of villages in Czech and German > languages, you will be able to better locate the place of your ancestors > that might no longer exist and I hope that this will help you out of a dead > ended research block. > Submitted by Aida > > http://www.zanikleobce.cz/index.php?menu=22%20title= > http://www.zanikleobce.cz/index.php?menu=93 > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Dear Larry, thanks for you kind words. We need to find "your correct" Ovesne, there are several. Go to this link: http://www.mapy.cz/#[email protected][email protected][email protected][email protected][email protected][email protected][email protected][email protected]=11 <http://www.mapy.cz/#[email protected][email protected][email protected][email protected][email protected][email protected][email protected][email protected]=11>Click on all of them and when the map comes up, go to "dalsi" and then hit "historicka" and read the German name. This is the way you can find Haberles (?) - a nickname for something I just happen to dig out of my 80 year old brain. I have a sneaky suspicion that you screwed up the name of your ancestors and you mean Haberkladrau instead of Haberles!!!! that is a bit to the East of Marienbad (Marianske Lazne on the map!!!) Good luck.... I have a feeling that we have hit bullseye now. Yes? Let me know! Aida ------------------------------------- On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Larry Klauser <[email protected]>wrote: > Dear Aida: > > Like others, I can not thank you enough for the continuous education that > you provide. I always look forward to opening your responses. It seems > that I have failed "Sudetenland map reading 101". I am unable to find my > ancestors town of Haberles (Ovesne as it is now known) with reference to the > Sudetenland border. I think it is near the edge but I am not sure. As > always, thanks for your wisdom, knowledge and guidance. > > Larry Klauser > > --- On Tue, 1/5/10, Aida Kraus <[email protected]> wrote: > > From: Aida Kraus <[email protected]> > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Obsolete Villages in Bohemia > To: "german-bohemian" <[email protected]> > Date: Tuesday, January 5, 2010, 12:57 PM > > Here is a link to villages and buildings which are no longer in existence > in > the Czech Republic. While the Czechs confiscated German property after WW2 > (1945) in the Sudetenland and were trying to repopulate the area with > 800,000 Czech new settlers, the enormous void created by the 3,2 Million > Germans is quite visible on this map. However, please consider that some > of > the villages on the Western border were bulldozed to allow a clear cut > along > the length of the Iron Curtain against the West. To the North, Saxony, and > then Communist East Germany, there was no such installation. These red > dots represent emptied out German villages to the most part. This is not a > representation of the German presence in Bohemia, because that was much > greater. These red dots are merely obsolete villages you can click on to > get a global positioning and the German and Czech name. You can then go to > www.mapy.cz > to zoom in on the area by satellite. You can go very close to individual > properties and houses. > With this map and alphabetical index of villages in Czech and German > languages, you will be able to better locate the place of your ancestors > that might no longer exist and I hope that this will help you out of a dead > ended research block. > Submitted by Aida > > http://www.zanikleobce.cz/index.php?menu=22%20title= > http://www.zanikleobce.cz/index.php?menu=93 > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Aida: I think my wife's family came from Unterhutten. At least there are family names there (Fleischman, Paa, & Wild). I know the village is no longer there, it was bulldozed down, but I could not find it on your map. Could you tell me where it is located? Bill Forshay - San Antonio, TX ________________________________ From: Aida Kraus <[email protected]> To: german-bohemian <[email protected]> Sent: Tue, January 5, 2010 12:57:03 PM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Obsolete Villages in Bohemia Here is a link to villages and buildings which are no longer in existence in the Czech Republic. While the Czechs confiscated German property after WW2 (1945) in the Sudetenland and were trying to repopulate the area with 800,000 Czech new settlers, the enormous void created by the 3,2 Million Germans is quite visible on this map. However, please consider that some of the villages on the Western border were bulldozed to allow a clear cut along the length of the Iron Curtain against the West. To the North, Saxony, and then Communist East Germany, there was no such installation. These red dots represent emptied out German villages to the most part. This is not a representation of the German presence in Bohemia, because that was much greater. These red dots are merely obsolete villages you can click on to get a global positioning and the German and Czech name. You can then go to www.mapy.cz to zoom in on the area by satellite. You can go very close to individual properties and houses. With this map and alphabetical index of villages in Czech and German languages, you will be able to better locate the place of your ancestors that might no longer exist and I hope that this will help you out of a dead ended research block. Submitted by Aida http://www.zanikleobce.cz/index.php?menu=22%20title= http://www.zanikleobce.cz/index.php?menu=93 German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Aida: Like others, I can not thank you enough for the continuous education that you provide.  I always look forward to opening your responses.  It seems that I have failed "Sudetenland map reading 101".  I am unable to find my ancestors town of Haberles (Ovesne as it is now known) with reference to the Sudetenland border.  I think it is near the edge but I am not sure.  As always, thanks for your wisdom, knowledge and guidance. Larry Klauser --- On Tue, 1/5/10, Aida Kraus <[email protected]> wrote: From: Aida Kraus <[email protected]> Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Obsolete Villages in Bohemia To: "german-bohemian" <[email protected]> Date: Tuesday, January 5, 2010, 12:57 PM Here is a link to villages and buildings which are no longer in existence in the Czech Republic.  While the Czechs confiscated German property after WW2 (1945) in the Sudetenland and were trying to repopulate the area with 800,000 Czech new settlers, the enormous void created by the 3,2 Million Germans is quite visible on this map.  However, please consider that some of the villages on the Western border were bulldozed to allow a clear cut along the length of the Iron Curtain against the West.  To the North, Saxony, and then Communist East Germany,  there was no such installation.  These red dots represent emptied out German villages to the most part.  This is not a representation of the German presence in Bohemia, because that was much greater.  These red dots are merely obsolete villages you can click on to get a global positioning and the German and Czech name.  You can then go to www.mapy.cz to zoom in on the area by satellite.   You can go very close to individual properties and houses.     With this map and alphabetical index of villages in Czech and German languages, you will be able to better locate the place of your ancestors that might no longer exist and I hope that this will help you out of a dead ended research block.     Submitted by Aida http://www.zanikleobce.cz/index.php?menu=22%20title= http://www.zanikleobce.cz/index.php?menu=93 German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Here is a link to villages and buildings which are no longer in existence in the Czech Republic. While the Czechs confiscated German property after WW2 (1945) in the Sudetenland and were trying to repopulate the area with 800,000 Czech new settlers, the enormous void created by the 3,2 Million Germans is quite visible on this map. However, please consider that some of the villages on the Western border were bulldozed to allow a clear cut along the length of the Iron Curtain against the West. To the North, Saxony, and then Communist East Germany, there was no such installation. These red dots represent emptied out German villages to the most part. This is not a representation of the German presence in Bohemia, because that was much greater. These red dots are merely obsolete villages you can click on to get a global positioning and the German and Czech name. You can then go to www.mapy.cz to zoom in on the area by satellite. You can go very close to individual properties and houses. With this map and alphabetical index of villages in Czech and German languages, you will be able to better locate the place of your ancestors that might no longer exist and I hope that this will help you out of a dead ended research block. Submitted by Aida http://www.zanikleobce.cz/index.php?menu=22%20title= http://www.zanikleobce.cz/index.php?menu=93

Aida, thank you for answering, you brought back many memories for me. Almost made me homesick. I do remember the Kuchelbemisch well - and since my mother was from the Erzgebirge and had a very strong saechsich pronounciation in her words and my father was from the Boehmerwald - the language I grew up was a real Kauderwelsch. LOL Love Susie In a message dated 1/3/2010 7:03:42 P.M. Central Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Yes, Susie you are right, but this discussion did not start with dialects of the same language at all, but with Czech and German as languages in ethnic areas of basically entirely two different language branches: Teutonic and Slavic. There are no "like words" in either of these language, but the Bohemians made up words for both of these languages for general understanding, and this funny language was somewhat like "Pidgin English" and was called "Kuchelpemisch"!!! because it had started in the kitchens. In other words "Kitchen Bohemian" which containe a lot of Viennese Yiddish and French words mixed into it. A sink was not a "Spüle" but a "Lawohr" (lavoir), and when you "schlepped" your things around they were your "Tschotschken" which is a typical conglomeration of Czech, German and Yiddish...... and many many more.... Yes, the Boehmerwald, where you came from, was a mix of Niederbayrisch and Austrian while our Egerländerisch is Bavarian Oberpfälzisch, a Frankish dialect. I am not quite sure where the language actually changed, I think it must have been around Bischofteinitz/Mies or thereabouts. The dialects are indeed different, but very understandable. And there is yet another dialect to the North of my hometown Karlsbad, and close to the Erzgebirge (Ore Mountain) because there they spoke Erzgebirglerisch which is almost Saxon, but not quite. In other words, for American people to understand this we would have to explain to them that it was like "as if each county had a different pronunciation for the same word" and some of them were as different as North American Yankee is to a Southern dialect. Some of the words changed entirely with the area in Germany. Like our hard rolls were "Semmeln" while in Germany they were "Brötchen".... and of course, there are linguistic parodies of misunderstandings galore! Aida ------------------------------------------ On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 4:03 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Aida,I was born in the Boehmerwald and also grew up there. I left when I > was 18 years old, You can tell by the dialect what area a person is from. > The dialect in the north of Bohemia is quite different from the southern > parts of the country. > Just thought I put my 5 cents in. > > Happy New Year to all > Susie > > > > > In a message dated 1/3/2010 5:52:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > No I am not an expert on this, but we are talking two distinct languages, > one a Germanic one the other a Slavic. They are easy to distinguish, > while > dialects, for instance, are not as quickly to recognize and to place, > unless you are a linguist. > Aida > > -------------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 3:22 PM, frank <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Aida: It is my understanding that there was a common language, but that > the > > spoken dialects were different, and one would know where the speaker was > > from immediately. Much like modern Euro French and Canadian French. > > > > But you are the expert on this. True or not? > > > > Frank Heidl Slocum > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> > > To: <[email protected]> > > Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 6:08 PM > > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > > > > > > > Indeed, Daniel, the German and Czech speech boundaries were used to > > define > > > the so called Sudetenland, and it was in 1938 that these ethnic groups > > > separated. Prior to that, and all during the monarchy's rules for > over > > > 400 > > > years, they were never separated. There is no doubt that the > influence > > of > > > politics separated these people while they had a history of peaceful > > > coexistence and dependence on one another. Actually, their cruel > > > separation > > > came with the influence of religion and political interest. Although > > > German > > > speaking pockets are found historically all through Bohemia, there > were > > > hardly any Czech speaking people in Western Bohemia before 1918, > > > particularly in the area called " Egerland" which originally belonged > to > > > Bavaria. However, there were Slavic Sorbs (or Sorbo) within the East > > > part > > > of Germany, in the location from Lusatia to southern Berlin. Wherever > > two > > > speech boundaries meet, the languages there spoken become > > interchangeable. > > > You are finding the same here on the North American continent, for > > > instance > > > in Canada where French and English are adjoined, and Spanish and > > English > > > in the Southern States. > > > Aida > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 1:46 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> Thank you Aida, > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> It is wonderful that you share with all of us your vast knowledge of > the > > >> German - Bohemian history. > > >> > > >> My father family is full Bohemian, but when I talked to my > Grandfather > > >> years ago he seemed to > > >> > > >> believe there was not a real border between them. Both Grandparents > > knew > > >> how to speak both > > >> > > >> languages. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> As part of my mother's family, we have always thought of the Hughes > > >> family > > >> as from Wales. As I dug > > >> > > >> further in history, I have found that the Hughes family were German > > >> family > > >> who immigrated to Wales > > >> > > >> in the 11 to 12 century. They were a mining family who moved to new > > >> sources in Wales, then on to > > >> > > >> Wisconsin in the late 1800's. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Daniel Nechkash > > >> > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> > > >> To: [email protected] > > >> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 9:53:56 PM GMT -05:00 Colombia > > >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > > >> > > >> I think I can provide some insight into the theory that they came > with > > >> glassworkers from Bohemia to Poland, but again, we have to go back > to > > >> history to trace the probable trail of your ancestors. Never forget > > >> that the Austrian Hungarian Empire lasted over 400 years and > > >> encompassed a huge area. This area was split into 9 countires after > > >> WW1 (1918) and hence you find the original residents of Austria all > of > > >> a sudden in "other country". Austria Hungary was a multiethnical > > >> country, something Europe is trying to achieve now, and outside > forces > > >> tore it apart when it was already in existence and a great military > > >> threat to Great Britain. > > >> Now we come to the glasswork theory. Bohemia also was a part of > > >> Austria Hungary, and has very close ties to provinces of France, > > >> namely Luxembourg (the Luxemburgers were Bohemian Kings) and > > >> Alsace/Lorraine as well as part of Belgium. So... what do I see? I > > >> see a trail.... and especially since the nobility is involved who > were > > >> the first to start up industries. Bohemia had huge glass and > > >> porcelain manufacture, so had France. It is most likely that the > > >> nobility took their best craftsmen with their retinue to other areas > > >> of the Empire. > > >> All you have to do is to search for historical maps on the > > >> internet. Look at the old Austrian Hungarian map and then look where > > >> your ancestors lived, and you will see that they were all within the > > >> borders of the Empire. You'll find that the Austrian Hungarian > > >> Monarchy encompassed within her original borders lands that are now > > >> split away from the ancient motherland and were arbitrarily given to > > >> Poland, Romania, Italy, and alsao entirely new countries were > invented > > >> in 1918 like Cechoslovakia and Yugoslavia at the Treaty of Trianon. > > >> This was to appease the Slavic Nations who never had a homeland of > > >> their own. Therefore, I am sure that the place you call "Poland" was > > >> the Galicia of Austria Hungary. > > >> This trail may explain your Kichard from France to the German > > >> Glasswork areas of Bohemia, and from there to Poland. To bear this > > >> out, I can assure you that I have French Names in my own family who > > >> were Germans from French provinces and I found them even farther > East > > >> along the Danube, than yours. > > >> Aida > > >> > > >> On 12/16/09, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > Hello again, > > >> > > > >> > Thank you, Aida and Frank, for responding to my question about > > whether > > >> my > > >> > Kichard ancestors were of German origin. I'll follow-up on the > > >> suggestions > > >> > in your e-mails. > > >> > > > >> > I had previously heard from a German native that the Kichard name > was > > >> > likely not of German origin, but I had reason to believe otherwise, > as > > >> > I > > >> > mention below. > > >> > > > >> > I still have Kichard family living in south-east Poland, and they > > >> > believe > > >> > they are of German heritage. > > >> > > > >> > The book, "Opis Powiatu Jasielskiego", a geographical gazetteer > > >> published > > >> > in Poland in 1908, describes the villages in that area of Poland. > It > > >> > states that my first Kichard ancestor, Jakub Kichard, arrived > there > > in > > >> the > > >> > late > > >> > 1700's with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers to set-up and > > >> > operate > > >> a > > >> > glass-works for a Polish nobleman who was building a church and > > castle > > >> > nearby. > > >> > > > >> > Archive records show that my Kichard ancestors lived in that > village > > >> > from > > >> > that time up to 1945, almost 200 years, until the communist > > government > > >> > forced all of the residents to move from the village at that time. > > >> > > > >> > Elderly Kichard relatives who once lived in that village and were > > among > > >> > those forced to move out in 1945, still say that when they had > lived > > >> there, > > >> > that when their young friends who also lived there were coming to > > visit > > >> > them, and were asked by their family where they were going, they > would > > >> > say,"to > > >> > see the Germans". > > >> > > > >> > Thus, family history and the above says that Kichard is a "German" > > >> > name. > > >> > > > >> > However, since my first Kichard ancestor arrived in that area of > > Poland > > >> > with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers, perhaps it is a Czech > > name > > >> that > > >> > is derived from an earlier German name. > > >> > > > >> > Any of your comments and further suggestions on my Kichard search > will > > >> > be > > >> > appreciated. > > >> > > > >> > Thank you all again. > > >> > > > >> > Andy > > >> > Pittsburgh, PA > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > >> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >> > ------------------------------- > > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> > without > > >> the > > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >> ------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >> ------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the > subject and the body of the message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Get 'em. love it! FHS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arianwen" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 10:45 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > Aida - > > I know exactly what you mean. Though I was born in Leipzig, my mother > and her whole family are from near Karlsbad, so I grew up with High > German and a fair bit of Bohemian words and phrases thrown in. My > brother, who was born in the US, took German in high school and as he > had grown up hearing our version of German, he wrote the words he was > used to on an exam, and his teacher (a famous bitch among her > students) failed him. My mother and I had to go in and explain why > he'd put the words he did, prove to her they weren't made up (because > you can't take the word of native German speakers, right?), and only > then would she give him the score he deserved. We just made sure from > then on he was using proper High German vocabulary in class. > > As a funny aside, I was the substitute teacher for said bitch, and > I've never had students so glad to see a substitute in their lives. It > was my first day as a sub, and I had my baby brother in my class, so > talk about intimidating! I had some wise-guy try to show off by > cursing a blue streak at me in German, not bothering to ask if I spoke > it, and when he was done, I corrected his grammar and told him next > time, he should check to see if the person he's swearing at speaks the > language. The whole class was in silent awe the rest of the class. :-D > > Anna > > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Sunday, January 3, 2010 6:30:51 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > > Yes, Susie you are right, but this discussion did not start with > dialects of > the same language at all, ?but with Czech and German as languages in > ethnic > areas of basically entirely two different language branches: ?Teutonic > and > Slavic. ?There are no "like words" in either of these language, but the > Bohemians made up words for both of these languages for general > understanding, and this funny language was somewhat like "Pidgin > English" > and was called "Kuchelpemisch"!!! ? because it had started in the > kitchens. > ?In other words "Kitchen Bohemian" which containe a lot of Viennese > Yiddish > and French words mixed into it. ? A sink was not a "Sp?le" but a > "Lawohr" > (lavoir), and when you "schlepped" your things around they were your > "Tschotschken" which is a typical conglomeration of Czech, German and > Yiddish...... and many many more.... > ?? ? ? Yes, the Boehmerwald, where you came from, was a mix of > Niederbayrisch and Austrian while our Egerl?nderisch is Bavarian > Oberpf?lzisch, a Frankish dialect. ?I am not quite sure where the > language > actually changed, I think it must have been around Bischofteinitz/Mies > or > thereabouts. ?The dialects are indeed different, but very > understandable. > ?And there is yet another dialect to the North of my hometown > Karlsbad, and > close to the Erzgebirge (Ore Mountain) because there they spoke > Erzgebirglerisch which is almost Saxon, but not quite. ?In other > words, for > American people to understand this we would have ?to explain to them > that it > was like "as if each county had a different pronunciation for the same > word" > and some of them were as different as North American Yankee is to a > Southern > dialect. > Some of the words changed entirely with the area in Germany. Like our > hard > rolls were "Semmeln" while in Germany they were "Br?tchen".... and of > course, there are linguistic parodies of misunderstandings galore! > ?? ? ? Aida > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Thank you Aida, Frank and Susie, Both of my grandparents grew up in Southern Wisconsin in strongly dominated German-Bohemian communities.  My father didn't learn English until his went to grade school, even to the day that he died in 2000, he still understood both languages.  There has been such a tight bond between these two groups over many centuries, it is too bad that two horrible war damage the relations between the two of them.  Let's hope that time will heal this issue. I hope the rest of the group learnt something from today's discussions.  I certainly did...... Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, January 3, 2010 6:30:51 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch Yes, Susie you are right, but this discussion did not start with dialects of the same language at all,  but with Czech and German as languages in ethnic areas of basically entirely two different language branches:  Teutonic and Slavic.  There are no "like words" in either of these language, but the Bohemians made up words for both of these languages for general understanding, and this funny language was somewhat like "Pidgin English" and was called "Kuchelpemisch"!!!   because it had started in the kitchens.  In other words "Kitchen Bohemian" which containe a lot of Viennese Yiddish and French words mixed into it.   A sink was not a "Spüle" but a "Lawohr" (lavoir), and when you "schlepped" your things around they were your "Tschotschken" which is a typical conglomeration of Czech, German and Yiddish...... and many many more....        Yes, the Boehmerwald, where you came from, was a mix of Niederbayrisch and Austrian while our Egerländerisch is Bavarian Oberpfälzisch, a Frankish dialect.  I am not quite sure where the language actually changed, I think it must have been around Bischofteinitz/Mies or thereabouts.  The dialects are indeed different, but very understandable.  And there is yet another dialect to the North of my hometown Karlsbad, and close to the Erzgebirge (Ore Mountain) because there they spoke Erzgebirglerisch which is almost Saxon, but not quite.  In other words, for American people to understand this we would have  to explain to them that it was like "as if each county had a different pronunciation for the same word" and some of them were as different as North American Yankee is to a Southern dialect. Some of the words changed entirely with the area in Germany. Like our hard rolls were "Semmeln" while in Germany they were "Brötchen".... and of course, there are linguistic parodies of misunderstandings galore!        Aida ------------------------------------------ On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 4:03 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Aida,I was born in the Boehmerwald and also grew up there. I left when I > was 18 years old, You can tell by the dialect what area a person is from. > The dialect in the north of Bohemia is quite different from the southern > parts of the country. > Just thought I put my 5 cents in. > > Happy New Year to all > Susie > > > > > In a message dated 1/3/2010 5:52:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > No I am  not an expert on this, but we are talking two distinct languages, > one a  Germanic one the other a Slavic.  They are easy to distinguish, > while > dialects, for instance,  are not as quickly to recognize and to  place, > unless you are a  linguist. > Aida > > -------------------------------------------------- > > On  Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 3:22 PM, frank <[email protected]>  wrote: > > > Aida: It is my understanding that there was a common  language, but that > the > > spoken dialects were different, and one would  know where the speaker was > > from immediately. Much like modern Euro  French and Canadian French. > > > > But you are the expert on this.  True or not? > > > > Frank Heidl Slocum > > > > ----- Original  Message ----- > > From: "Aida Kraus"  <[email protected]> > > To:  <[email protected]> > > Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010  6:08 PM > > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and  Prokosch > > > > > > > Indeed, Daniel, the German and Czech  speech boundaries were used to > > define > > > the so called  Sudetenland, and it was in 1938 that these ethnic groups > > >  separated.  Prior to that, and all during the monarchy's rules for > over > > > 400 > > > years, they were never separated.   There is no doubt that the > influence > > of > > > politics  separated these people while they had a history of peaceful > > >  coexistence and dependence on one another.  Actually, their cruel > >  > separation > > > came with the influence of religion and political  interest.  Although > > > German > > > speaking pockets are  found historically all through Bohemia, there > were > > > hardly any  Czech speaking people in Western Bohemia before 1918, > > >  particularly in the area called " Egerland" which originally belonged > to > > > Bavaria.   However, there were Slavic Sorbs (or  Sorbo) within the East > > > part > > > of Germany, in the  location from Lusatia to southern Berlin.  Wherever > > two > >  > speech boundaries meet, the languages there spoken become > >  interchangeable. > > > You are finding the same here on the North  American continent, for > > > instance > > > in Canada  where  French and English are adjoined,  and Spanish and > >  English > > > in the Southern States. > > > Aida > >  > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > >  > > > > On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 1:46 PM, <[email protected]>  wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> Thank  you Aida, > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>  It is wonderful that you share with all of us your vast knowledge of > the > > >> German - Bohemian history. > > >> > >  >> My father family is full Bohemian, but when I talked to my > Grandfather > > >> years ago he seemed to > > >> > >  >> believe there was not a real border between them.  Both  Grandparents > > knew > > >> how to speak both > >  >> > > >> languages. > > >> > > >> > >  >> > > >> As part of my mother's family, we have always  thought of the Hughes > > >> family > > >> as from  Wales.  As I dug > > >> > > >> further in history, I  have found that the Hughes family were German > > >> family > >  >> who immigrated to Wales > > >> > > >> in the 11  to 12 century.  They were a mining family who moved to new > >  >> sources in Wales, then on to > > >> > > >>  Wisconsin in the late 1800's. > > >> > > >> > >  >> > > >> Daniel Nechkash > > >> > >  >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From:  "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> > > >> To:  [email protected] > > >> Sent: Wednesday, December 16,  2009 9:53:56 PM GMT -05:00 Colombia > > >> Subject: Re:  [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > > >> > > >> I think  I can provide some insight into the theory that they came > with > >  >> glassworkers from Bohemia to Poland, but again, we have to go back >  to > > >> history to trace the probable trail of your  ancestors.  Never forget > > >> that the Austrian Hungarian  Empire lasted over 400 years and > > >> encompassed a huge  area.  This area was split into 9 countires after > > >> WW1  (1918) and hence you find the original residents of Austria all > of > >  >> a sudden in "other country".  Austria Hungary was a  multiethnical > > >> country, something Europe is trying to achieve  now, and outside > forces > > >> tore it apart when it was already in  existence and a great military > > >> threat to Great  Britain. > > >>      Now we come to the glasswork  theory.  Bohemia also was a part of > > >> Austria Hungary, and  has very close ties to provinces of France, > > >> namely Luxembourg  (the Luxemburgers were Bohemian Kings) and > > >> Alsace/Lorraine as  well as part of Belgium.  So... what do I see?  I > > >>  see a trail.... and especially since the nobility is involved who > were > >  >> the first to start up industries.  Bohemia had huge glass  and > > >> porcelain manufacture, so had France.  It is most  likely that the > > >> nobility took their best craftsmen with their  retinue to other areas > > >> of the Empire. > > >>   All you have to do is to search for historical maps on  the > > >> internet.  Look at the old Austrian Hungarian map  and then look where > > >> your ancestors lived, and you will see  that they were all within the > > >> borders of the Empire.   You'll find that the Austrian Hungarian > > >> Monarchy encompassed  within her original borders lands that are now > > >> split away  from the ancient motherland and were arbitrarily given to > > >>  Poland, Romania, Italy, and alsao entirely new countries were > invented > >  >> in 1918 like Cechoslovakia and Yugoslavia at the Treaty of  Trianon. > > >> This was to appease the Slavic Nations who never had  a homeland of > > >> their own.  Therefore, I am sure that the  place you call "Poland" was > > >> the Galicia of Austria  Hungary. > > >>     This trail may explain your  Kichard from France to the German > > >> Glasswork areas of Bohemia,  and from there to Poland.  To bear this > > >> out, I can  assure you that I have French Names in my own family who > > >> were  Germans from  French provinces and I found them even farther > East > >  >> along the Danube, than yours. > > >>       Aida > > >> > > >> On 12/16/09, [email protected]  <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > Hello again, > >  >> > > > >> > Thank you, Aida and Frank, for responding  to my  question about > > whether > > >> my > >  >> > Kichard ancestors were of German  origin.  I'll  follow-up on the > > >> suggestions > > >> > in your  e-mails. > > >> > > > >> > I had previously heard  from a German native that the Kichard name > was > > >> > likely  not of German origin, but I had reason to believe otherwise, > as > >  >> > I > > >> > mention below. > > >>  > > > >> > I still have Kichard family living in south-east  Poland, and they > > >> > believe > > >> > they are  of German heritage. > > >> > > > >> > The book,  "Opis Powiatu Jasielskiego", a geographical gazetteer > > >>   published > > >> > in Poland in 1908, describes the villages in  that area  of Poland. > It > > >> > states that my first  Kichard ancestor, Jakub  Kichard, arrived > there > > in > >  >> the > > >> > late > > >> > 1700's with  other "Germanized-Czech"  glass-workers to set-up and > > >>  > operate > > >> a > > >> > glass-works for a Polish  nobleman who  was building a church and > > castle > > >>  > nearby. > > >> > > > >> > Archive records show  that my Kichard ancestors lived in that > village > > >> >  from > > >> > that time up to 1945, almost 200 years, until the  communist > >  government > > >> > forced all of the  residents to move from the village at  that time. > > >>  > > > >> > Elderly Kichard relatives who once lived in that  village and were > > among > > >> > those forced to move out  in 1945, still say that when they had > lived > > >> there, > >  >> > that when their young friends who also lived there were coming  to > > visit > > >> > them, and were asked by their family  where they were going, they > would > > >> > say,"to > >  >> > see the Germans". > > >> > > > >> >  Thus, family history and the above says that Kichard is a "German" > >  >> > name. > > >> > > > >> > However, since  my first Kichard ancestor arrived in that area of > > Poland > >  >> > with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers, perhaps it is a  Czech > > name > > >> that > > >> > is   derived from an earlier German name. > > >> > > > >>  > Any of your comments and further suggestions on my Kichard search > will > > >> > be > > >> > appreciated. > >  >> > > > >> > Thank you all again. > > >>  > > > >> > Andy > > >> > Pittsburgh, PA > >  >> > > > >> > > > >> > German-Bohemian  Heritage Society web site > > >> >  http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >> >  ------------------------------- > > >> > To unsubscribe from the  list, please send an email to > > >> >  [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >  >> > without > > >> the > > >> > quotes in the  subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > >>  German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >  http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >>  ------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe from the list,  please send an email to > > >> [email protected]  with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > >> the quotes in the  subject and the body of the message > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage  Society web site > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >>  ------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe from the list,  please send an email to > > >> [email protected]  with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > >> the quotes in the  subject and the body of the message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage  Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >  ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list,  please send an email to > > > [email protected] with  the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the quotes in the subject and the  body of the message > > > > > > > > > > German-Bohemian  Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >  ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please  send an email to > > [email protected] with the word  'unsubscribe' > without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the  message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site  http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To  unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the  quotes in the > subject and the body of the  message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Aida - I know exactly what you mean. Though I was born in Leipzig, my mother and her whole family are from near Karlsbad, so I grew up with High German and a fair bit of Bohemian words and phrases thrown in. My brother, who was born in the US, took German in high school and as he had grown up hearing our version of German, he wrote the words he was used to on an exam, and his teacher (a famous bitch among her students) failed him. My mother and I had to go in and explain why he'd put the words he did, prove to her they weren't made up (because you can't take the word of native German speakers, right?), and only then would she give him the score he deserved. We just made sure from then on he was using proper High German vocabulary in class. As a funny aside, I was the substitute teacher for said bitch, and I've never had students so glad to see a substitute in their lives. It was my first day as a sub, and I had my baby brother in my class, so talk about intimidating! I had some wise-guy try to show off by cursing a blue streak at me in German, not bothering to ask if I spoke it, and when he was done, I corrected his grammar and told him next time, he should check to see if the person he's swearing at speaks the language. The whole class was in silent awe the rest of the class. :-D Anna ---- Original Message ----- From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, January 3, 2010 6:30:51 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch Yes, Susie you are right, but this discussion did not start with dialects of the same language at all, ?but with Czech and German as languages in ethnic areas of basically entirely two different language branches: ?Teutonic and Slavic. ?There are no "like words" in either of these language, but the Bohemians made up words for both of these languages for general understanding, and this funny language was somewhat like "Pidgin English" and was called "Kuchelpemisch"!!! ? because it had started in the kitchens. ?In other words "Kitchen Bohemian" which containe a lot of Viennese Yiddish and French words mixed into it. ? A sink was not a "Sp?le" but a "Lawohr" (lavoir), and when you "schlepped" your things around they were your "Tschotschken" which is a typical conglomeration of Czech, German and Yiddish...... and many many more.... ?? ? ? Yes, the Boehmerwald, where you came from, was a mix of Niederbayrisch and Austrian while our Egerl?nderisch is Bavarian Oberpf?lzisch, a Frankish dialect. ?I am not quite sure where the language actually changed, I think it must have been around Bischofteinitz/Mies or thereabouts. ?The dialects are indeed different, but very understandable. ?And there is yet another dialect to the North of my hometown Karlsbad, and close to the Erzgebirge (Ore Mountain) because there they spoke Erzgebirglerisch which is almost Saxon, but not quite. ?In other words, for American people to understand this we would have ?to explain to them that it was like "as if each county had a different pronunciation for the same word" and some of them were as different as North American Yankee is to a Southern dialect. Some of the words changed entirely with the area in Germany. Like our hard rolls were "Semmeln" while in Germany they were "Br?tchen".... and of course, there are linguistic parodies of misunderstandings galore! ?? ? ? Aida

Thank you Aida, It is wonderful that you share with all of us your vast knowledge of the German - Bohemian history.  My father family is full Bohemian, but when I talked to my Grandfather years ago he seemed to believe there was not a real border between them.  Both Grandparents knew how to speak both languages. As part of my mother's family, we have always thought of the Hughes family as from Wales.  As I dug further in history, I have found that the Hughes family were German family who immigrated to Wales in the 11 to 12 century.  They were a mining family who moved to new sources in Wales, then on to Wisconsin in the late 1800's. Daniel Nechkash ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 9:53:56 PM GMT -05:00 Colombia Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch I think I can provide some insight into the theory that they came with glassworkers from Bohemia to Poland, but again, we have to go back to history to trace the probable trail of your ancestors.  Never forget that the Austrian Hungarian Empire lasted over 400 years and encompassed a huge area.  This area was split into 9 countires after WW1 (1918) and hence you find the original residents of Austria all of a sudden in "other country".  Austria Hungary was a multiethnical country, something Europe is trying to achieve now, and outside forces tore it apart when it was already in existence and a great military threat to Great Britain.      Now we come to the glasswork theory.  Bohemia also was a part of Austria Hungary, and has very close ties to provinces of France, namely Luxembourg (the Luxemburgers were Bohemian Kings) and Alsace/Lorraine as well as part of Belgium.  So... what do I see?  I see a trail.... and especially since the nobility is involved who were the first to start up industries.  Bohemia had huge glass and porcelain manufacture, so had France.  It is most likely that the nobility took their best craftsmen with their retinue to other areas of the Empire.     All you have to do is to search for historical maps on the internet.  Look at the old Austrian Hungarian map and then look where your ancestors lived, and you will see that they were all within the borders of the Empire.  You'll find that the Austrian Hungarian Monarchy encompassed within her original borders lands that are now split away from the ancient motherland and were arbitrarily given to Poland, Romania, Italy, and alsao entirely new countries were invented in 1918 like Cechoslovakia and Yugoslavia at the Treaty of Trianon. This was to appease the Slavic Nations who never had a homeland of their own.  Therefore, I am sure that the place you call "Poland" was the Galicia of Austria Hungary.     This trail may explain your Kichard from France to the German Glasswork areas of Bohemia, and from there to Poland.  To bear this out, I can assure you that I have French Names in my own family who were Germans from  French provinces and I found them even farther East along the Danube, than yours.      Aida On 12/16/09, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > Hello again, > > Thank you, Aida and Frank, for responding to my  question about whether my > Kichard ancestors were of German  origin.  I'll follow-up on the suggestions > in your e-mails. > > I had previously heard from a German native that the Kichard name was > likely not of German origin, but I had reason to believe otherwise, as I > mention below. > > I still have Kichard family living in south-east Poland, and they believe > they are of German heritage. > > The book, "Opis Powiatu Jasielskiego", a geographical gazetteer  published > in Poland in 1908, describes the villages in that area  of Poland.  It > states that my first Kichard ancestor, Jakub  Kichard, arrived there in the > late > 1700's with other "Germanized-Czech"  glass-workers to set-up and operate a > glass-works for a Polish nobleman who  was building a church and castle > nearby. > > Archive records show that my Kichard ancestors lived in that village from > that time up to 1945, almost 200 years, until the communist  government > forced all of the residents to move from the village at  that time. > > Elderly Kichard relatives who once lived in that village and were among > those forced to move out in 1945, still say that when they had lived there, > that when their young friends who also lived there were coming to visit > them, and were asked by their family where they were going, they would > say,"to > see the Germans". > > Thus, family history and the above says that Kichard is a "German"  name. > > However, since my first Kichard ancestor arrived in that area of Poland > with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers, perhaps it is a Czech name that > is  derived from an earlier German name. > > Any of your comments and further suggestions on my Kichard search will be > appreciated. > > Thank you all again. > > Andy > Pittsburgh, PA > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Aida,I was born in the Boehmerwald and also grew up there. I left when I was 18 years old, You can tell by the dialect what area a person is from. The dialect in the north of Bohemia is quite different from the southern parts of the country. Just thought I put my 5 cents in. Happy New Year to all Susie In a message dated 1/3/2010 5:52:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, [email protected] writes: No I am not an expert on this, but we are talking two distinct languages, one a Germanic one the other a Slavic. They are easy to distinguish, while dialects, for instance, are not as quickly to recognize and to place, unless you are a linguist. Aida -------------------------------------------------- On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 3:22 PM, frank <[email protected]> wrote: > Aida: It is my understanding that there was a common language, but that the > spoken dialects were different, and one would know where the speaker was > from immediately. Much like modern Euro French and Canadian French. > > But you are the expert on this. True or not? > > Frank Heidl Slocum > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 6:08 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > > > > Indeed, Daniel, the German and Czech speech boundaries were used to > define > > the so called Sudetenland, and it was in 1938 that these ethnic groups > > separated. Prior to that, and all during the monarchy's rules for over > > 400 > > years, they were never separated. There is no doubt that the influence > of > > politics separated these people while they had a history of peaceful > > coexistence and dependence on one another. Actually, their cruel > > separation > > came with the influence of religion and political interest. Although > > German > > speaking pockets are found historically all through Bohemia, there were > > hardly any Czech speaking people in Western Bohemia before 1918, > > particularly in the area called " Egerland" which originally belonged to > > Bavaria. However, there were Slavic Sorbs (or Sorbo) within the East > > part > > of Germany, in the location from Lusatia to southern Berlin. Wherever > two > > speech boundaries meet, the languages there spoken become > interchangeable. > > You are finding the same here on the North American continent, for > > instance > > in Canada where French and English are adjoined, and Spanish and > English > > in the Southern States. > > Aida > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 1:46 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> Thank you Aida, > >> > >> > >> > >> It is wonderful that you share with all of us your vast knowledge of the > >> German - Bohemian history. > >> > >> My father family is full Bohemian, but when I talked to my Grandfather > >> years ago he seemed to > >> > >> believe there was not a real border between them. Both Grandparents > knew > >> how to speak both > >> > >> languages. > >> > >> > >> > >> As part of my mother's family, we have always thought of the Hughes > >> family > >> as from Wales. As I dug > >> > >> further in history, I have found that the Hughes family were German > >> family > >> who immigrated to Wales > >> > >> in the 11 to 12 century. They were a mining family who moved to new > >> sources in Wales, then on to > >> > >> Wisconsin in the late 1800's. > >> > >> > >> > >> Daniel Nechkash > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> > >> To: [email protected] > >> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 9:53:56 PM GMT -05:00 Colombia > >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > >> > >> I think I can provide some insight into the theory that they came with > >> glassworkers from Bohemia to Poland, but again, we have to go back to > >> history to trace the probable trail of your ancestors. Never forget > >> that the Austrian Hungarian Empire lasted over 400 years and > >> encompassed a huge area. This area was split into 9 countires after > >> WW1 (1918) and hence you find the original residents of Austria all of > >> a sudden in "other country". Austria Hungary was a multiethnical > >> country, something Europe is trying to achieve now, and outside forces > >> tore it apart when it was already in existence and a great military > >> threat to Great Britain. > >> Now we come to the glasswork theory. Bohemia also was a part of > >> Austria Hungary, and has very close ties to provinces of France, > >> namely Luxembourg (the Luxemburgers were Bohemian Kings) and > >> Alsace/Lorraine as well as part of Belgium. So... what do I see? I > >> see a trail.... and especially since the nobility is involved who were > >> the first to start up industries. Bohemia had huge glass and > >> porcelain manufacture, so had France. It is most likely that the > >> nobility took their best craftsmen with their retinue to other areas > >> of the Empire. > >> All you have to do is to search for historical maps on the > >> internet. Look at the old Austrian Hungarian map and then look where > >> your ancestors lived, and you will see that they were all within the > >> borders of the Empire. You'll find that the Austrian Hungarian > >> Monarchy encompassed within her original borders lands that are now > >> split away from the ancient motherland and were arbitrarily given to > >> Poland, Romania, Italy, and alsao entirely new countries were invented > >> in 1918 like Cechoslovakia and Yugoslavia at the Treaty of Trianon. > >> This was to appease the Slavic Nations who never had a homeland of > >> their own. Therefore, I am sure that the place you call "Poland" was > >> the Galicia of Austria Hungary. > >> This trail may explain your Kichard from France to the German > >> Glasswork areas of Bohemia, and from there to Poland. To bear this > >> out, I can assure you that I have French Names in my own family who > >> were Germans from French provinces and I found them even farther East > >> along the Danube, than yours. > >> Aida > >> > >> On 12/16/09, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > Hello again, > >> > > >> > Thank you, Aida and Frank, for responding to my question about > whether > >> my > >> > Kichard ancestors were of German origin. I'll follow-up on the > >> suggestions > >> > in your e-mails. > >> > > >> > I had previously heard from a German native that the Kichard name was > >> > likely not of German origin, but I had reason to believe otherwise, as > >> > I > >> > mention below. > >> > > >> > I still have Kichard family living in south-east Poland, and they > >> > believe > >> > they are of German heritage. > >> > > >> > The book, "Opis Powiatu Jasielskiego", a geographical gazetteer > >> published > >> > in Poland in 1908, describes the villages in that area of Poland. It > >> > states that my first Kichard ancestor, Jakub Kichard, arrived there > in > >> the > >> > late > >> > 1700's with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers to set-up and > >> > operate > >> a > >> > glass-works for a Polish nobleman who was building a church and > castle > >> > nearby. > >> > > >> > Archive records show that my Kichard ancestors lived in that village > >> > from > >> > that time up to 1945, almost 200 years, until the communist > government > >> > forced all of the residents to move from the village at that time. > >> > > >> > Elderly Kichard relatives who once lived in that village and were > among > >> > those forced to move out in 1945, still say that when they had lived > >> there, > >> > that when their young friends who also lived there were coming to > visit > >> > them, and were asked by their family where they were going, they would > >> > say,"to > >> > see the Germans". > >> > > >> > Thus, family history and the above says that Kichard is a "German" > >> > name. > >> > > >> > However, since my first Kichard ancestor arrived in that area of > Poland > >> > with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers, perhaps it is a Czech > name > >> that > >> > is derived from an earlier German name. > >> > > >> > Any of your comments and further suggestions on my Kichard search will > >> > be > >> > appreciated. > >> > > >> > Thank you all again. > >> > > >> > Andy > >> > Pittsburgh, PA > >> > > >> > > >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> > ------------------------------- > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> > without > >> the > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Aida: I was thinking about Bohemian German and Deutschland German, not Slavic. You learned Bohemian German as a child, yes? Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 6:50 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > No I am not an expert on this, but we are talking two distinct languages, > one a Germanic one the other a Slavic. They are easy to distinguish, > while > dialects, for instance, are not as quickly to recognize and to place, > unless you are a linguist. > Aida > > -------------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 3:22 PM, frank <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Aida: It is my understanding that there was a common language, but that >> the >> spoken dialects were different, and one would know where the speaker was >> from immediately. Much like modern Euro French and Canadian French. >> >> But you are the expert on this. True or not? >> >> Frank Heidl Slocum >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 6:08 PM >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch >> >> >> > Indeed, Daniel, the German and Czech speech boundaries were used to >> define >> > the so called Sudetenland, and it was in 1938 that these ethnic groups >> > separated. Prior to that, and all during the monarchy's rules for over >> > 400 >> > years, they were never separated. There is no doubt that the influence >> of >> > politics separated these people while they had a history of peaceful >> > coexistence and dependence on one another. Actually, their cruel >> > separation >> > came with the influence of religion and political interest. Although >> > German >> > speaking pockets are found historically all through Bohemia, there were >> > hardly any Czech speaking people in Western Bohemia before 1918, >> > particularly in the area called " Egerland" which originally belonged >> > to >> > Bavaria. However, there were Slavic Sorbs (or Sorbo) within the East >> > part >> > of Germany, in the location from Lusatia to southern Berlin. Wherever >> two >> > speech boundaries meet, the languages there spoken become >> interchangeable. >> > You are finding the same here on the North American continent, for >> > instance >> > in Canada where French and English are adjoined, and Spanish and >> English >> > in the Southern States. >> > Aida >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------- >> > >> > On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 1:46 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Thank you Aida, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> It is wonderful that you share with all of us your vast knowledge of >> >> the >> >> German - Bohemian history. >> >> >> >> My father family is full Bohemian, but when I talked to my Grandfather >> >> years ago he seemed to >> >> >> >> believe there was not a real border between them. Both Grandparents >> knew >> >> how to speak both >> >> >> >> languages. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> As part of my mother's family, we have always thought of the Hughes >> >> family >> >> as from Wales. As I dug >> >> >> >> further in history, I have found that the Hughes family were German >> >> family >> >> who immigrated to Wales >> >> >> >> in the 11 to 12 century. They were a mining family who moved to new >> >> sources in Wales, then on to >> >> >> >> Wisconsin in the late 1800's. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Daniel Nechkash >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> >> >> To: [email protected] >> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 9:53:56 PM GMT -05:00 Colombia >> >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch >> >> >> >> I think I can provide some insight into the theory that they came with >> >> glassworkers from Bohemia to Poland, but again, we have to go back to >> >> history to trace the probable trail of your ancestors. Never forget >> >> that the Austrian Hungarian Empire lasted over 400 years and >> >> encompassed a huge area. This area was split into 9 countires after >> >> WW1 (1918) and hence you find the original residents of Austria all of >> >> a sudden in "other country". Austria Hungary was a multiethnical >> >> country, something Europe is trying to achieve now, and outside forces >> >> tore it apart when it was already in existence and a great military >> >> threat to Great Britain. >> >> Now we come to the glasswork theory. Bohemia also was a part of >> >> Austria Hungary, and has very close ties to provinces of France, >> >> namely Luxembourg (the Luxemburgers were Bohemian Kings) and >> >> Alsace/Lorraine as well as part of Belgium. So... what do I see? I >> >> see a trail.... and especially since the nobility is involved who were >> >> the first to start up industries. Bohemia had huge glass and >> >> porcelain manufacture, so had France. It is most likely that the >> >> nobility took their best craftsmen with their retinue to other areas >> >> of the Empire. >> >> All you have to do is to search for historical maps on the >> >> internet. Look at the old Austrian Hungarian map and then look where >> >> your ancestors lived, and you will see that they were all within the >> >> borders of the Empire. You'll find that the Austrian Hungarian >> >> Monarchy encompassed within her original borders lands that are now >> >> split away from the ancient motherland and were arbitrarily given to >> >> Poland, Romania, Italy, and alsao entirely new countries were invented >> >> in 1918 like Cechoslovakia and Yugoslavia at the Treaty of Trianon. >> >> This was to appease the Slavic Nations who never had a homeland of >> >> their own. Therefore, I am sure that the place you call "Poland" was >> >> the Galicia of Austria Hungary. >> >> This trail may explain your Kichard from France to the German >> >> Glasswork areas of Bohemia, and from there to Poland. To bear this >> >> out, I can assure you that I have French Names in my own family who >> >> were Germans from French provinces and I found them even farther East >> >> along the Danube, than yours. >> >> Aida >> >> >> >> On 12/16/09, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > Hello again, >> >> > >> >> > Thank you, Aida and Frank, for responding to my question about >> whether >> >> my >> >> > Kichard ancestors were of German origin. I'll follow-up on the >> >> suggestions >> >> > in your e-mails. >> >> > >> >> > I had previously heard from a German native that the Kichard name >> >> > was >> >> > likely not of German origin, but I had reason to believe otherwise, >> >> > as >> >> > I >> >> > mention below. >> >> > >> >> > I still have Kichard family living in south-east Poland, and they >> >> > believe >> >> > they are of German heritage. >> >> > >> >> > The book, "Opis Powiatu Jasielskiego", a geographical gazetteer >> >> published >> >> > in Poland in 1908, describes the villages in that area of Poland. >> >> > It >> >> > states that my first Kichard ancestor, Jakub Kichard, arrived there >> in >> >> the >> >> > late >> >> > 1700's with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers to set-up and >> >> > operate >> >> a >> >> > glass-works for a Polish nobleman who was building a church and >> castle >> >> > nearby. >> >> > >> >> > Archive records show that my Kichard ancestors lived in that village >> >> > from >> >> > that time up to 1945, almost 200 years, until the communist >> government >> >> > forced all of the residents to move from the village at that time. >> >> > >> >> > Elderly Kichard relatives who once lived in that village and were >> among >> >> > those forced to move out in 1945, still say that when they had lived >> >> there, >> >> > that when their young friends who also lived there were coming to >> visit >> >> > them, and were asked by their family where they were going, they >> >> > would >> >> > say,"to >> >> > see the Germans". >> >> > >> >> > Thus, family history and the above says that Kichard is a "German" >> >> > name. >> >> > >> >> > However, since my first Kichard ancestor arrived in that area of >> Poland >> >> > with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers, perhaps it is a Czech >> name >> >> that >> >> > is derived from an earlier German name. >> >> > >> >> > Any of your comments and further suggestions on my Kichard search >> >> > will >> >> > be >> >> > appreciated. >> >> > >> >> > Thank you all again. >> >> > >> >> > Andy >> >> > Pittsburgh, PA >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> >> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> >> > ------------------------------- >> >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> >> > without >> >> the >> >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > >> >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > without >> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > >> >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Aida: It is my understanding that there was a common language, but that the spoken dialects were different, and one would know where the speaker was from immediately. Much like modern Euro French and Canadian French. But you are the expert on this. True or not? Frank Heidl Slocum ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 6:08 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > Indeed, Daniel, the German and Czech speech boundaries were used to define > the so called Sudetenland, and it was in 1938 that these ethnic groups > separated. Prior to that, and all during the monarchy's rules for over > 400 > years, they were never separated. There is no doubt that the influence of > politics separated these people while they had a history of peaceful > coexistence and dependence on one another. Actually, their cruel > separation > came with the influence of religion and political interest. Although > German > speaking pockets are found historically all through Bohemia, there were > hardly any Czech speaking people in Western Bohemia before 1918, > particularly in the area called " Egerland" which originally belonged to > Bavaria. However, there were Slavic Sorbs (or Sorbo) within the East > part > of Germany, in the location from Lusatia to southern Berlin. Wherever two > speech boundaries meet, the languages there spoken become interchangeable. > You are finding the same here on the North American continent, for > instance > in Canada where French and English are adjoined, and Spanish and English > in the Southern States. > Aida > > ---------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 1:46 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> Thank you Aida, >> >> >> >> It is wonderful that you share with all of us your vast knowledge of the >> German - Bohemian history. >> >> My father family is full Bohemian, but when I talked to my Grandfather >> years ago he seemed to >> >> believe there was not a real border between them. Both Grandparents knew >> how to speak both >> >> languages. >> >> >> >> As part of my mother's family, we have always thought of the Hughes >> family >> as from Wales. As I dug >> >> further in history, I have found that the Hughes family were German >> family >> who immigrated to Wales >> >> in the 11 to 12 century. They were a mining family who moved to new >> sources in Wales, then on to >> >> Wisconsin in the late 1800's. >> >> >> >> Daniel Nechkash >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 9:53:56 PM GMT -05:00 Colombia >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch >> >> I think I can provide some insight into the theory that they came with >> glassworkers from Bohemia to Poland, but again, we have to go back to >> history to trace the probable trail of your ancestors. Never forget >> that the Austrian Hungarian Empire lasted over 400 years and >> encompassed a huge area. This area was split into 9 countires after >> WW1 (1918) and hence you find the original residents of Austria all of >> a sudden in "other country". Austria Hungary was a multiethnical >> country, something Europe is trying to achieve now, and outside forces >> tore it apart when it was already in existence and a great military >> threat to Great Britain. >> Now we come to the glasswork theory. Bohemia also was a part of >> Austria Hungary, and has very close ties to provinces of France, >> namely Luxembourg (the Luxemburgers were Bohemian Kings) and >> Alsace/Lorraine as well as part of Belgium. So... what do I see? I >> see a trail.... and especially since the nobility is involved who were >> the first to start up industries. Bohemia had huge glass and >> porcelain manufacture, so had France. It is most likely that the >> nobility took their best craftsmen with their retinue to other areas >> of the Empire. >> All you have to do is to search for historical maps on the >> internet. Look at the old Austrian Hungarian map and then look where >> your ancestors lived, and you will see that they were all within the >> borders of the Empire. You'll find that the Austrian Hungarian >> Monarchy encompassed within her original borders lands that are now >> split away from the ancient motherland and were arbitrarily given to >> Poland, Romania, Italy, and alsao entirely new countries were invented >> in 1918 like Cechoslovakia and Yugoslavia at the Treaty of Trianon. >> This was to appease the Slavic Nations who never had a homeland of >> their own. Therefore, I am sure that the place you call "Poland" was >> the Galicia of Austria Hungary. >> This trail may explain your Kichard from France to the German >> Glasswork areas of Bohemia, and from there to Poland. To bear this >> out, I can assure you that I have French Names in my own family who >> were Germans from French provinces and I found them even farther East >> along the Danube, than yours. >> Aida >> >> On 12/16/09, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: >> > Hello again, >> > >> > Thank you, Aida and Frank, for responding to my question about whether >> my >> > Kichard ancestors were of German origin. I'll follow-up on the >> suggestions >> > in your e-mails. >> > >> > I had previously heard from a German native that the Kichard name was >> > likely not of German origin, but I had reason to believe otherwise, as >> > I >> > mention below. >> > >> > I still have Kichard family living in south-east Poland, and they >> > believe >> > they are of German heritage. >> > >> > The book, "Opis Powiatu Jasielskiego", a geographical gazetteer >> published >> > in Poland in 1908, describes the villages in that area of Poland. It >> > states that my first Kichard ancestor, Jakub Kichard, arrived there in >> the >> > late >> > 1700's with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers to set-up and >> > operate >> a >> > glass-works for a Polish nobleman who was building a church and castle >> > nearby. >> > >> > Archive records show that my Kichard ancestors lived in that village >> > from >> > that time up to 1945, almost 200 years, until the communist government >> > forced all of the residents to move from the village at that time. >> > >> > Elderly Kichard relatives who once lived in that village and were among >> > those forced to move out in 1945, still say that when they had lived >> there, >> > that when their young friends who also lived there were coming to visit >> > them, and were asked by their family where they were going, they would >> > say,"to >> > see the Germans". >> > >> > Thus, family history and the above says that Kichard is a "German" >> > name. >> > >> > However, since my first Kichard ancestor arrived in that area of Poland >> > with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers, perhaps it is a Czech name >> that >> > is derived from an earlier German name. >> > >> > Any of your comments and further suggestions on my Kichard search will >> > be >> > appreciated. >> > >> > Thank you all again. >> > >> > Andy >> > Pittsburgh, PA >> > >> > >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > without >> the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Yes, Susie you are right, but this discussion did not start with dialects of the same language at all, but with Czech and German as languages in ethnic areas of basically entirely two different language branches: Teutonic and Slavic. There are no "like words" in either of these language, but the Bohemians made up words for both of these languages for general understanding, and this funny language was somewhat like "Pidgin English" and was called "Kuchelpemisch"!!! because it had started in the kitchens. In other words "Kitchen Bohemian" which containe a lot of Viennese Yiddish and French words mixed into it. A sink was not a "Spüle" but a "Lawohr" (lavoir), and when you "schlepped" your things around they were your "Tschotschken" which is a typical conglomeration of Czech, German and Yiddish...... and many many more.... Yes, the Boehmerwald, where you came from, was a mix of Niederbayrisch and Austrian while our Egerländerisch is Bavarian Oberpfälzisch, a Frankish dialect. I am not quite sure where the language actually changed, I think it must have been around Bischofteinitz/Mies or thereabouts. The dialects are indeed different, but very understandable. And there is yet another dialect to the North of my hometown Karlsbad, and close to the Erzgebirge (Ore Mountain) because there they spoke Erzgebirglerisch which is almost Saxon, but not quite. In other words, for American people to understand this we would have to explain to them that it was like "as if each county had a different pronunciation for the same word" and some of them were as different as North American Yankee is to a Southern dialect. Some of the words changed entirely with the area in Germany. Like our hard rolls were "Semmeln" while in Germany they were "Brötchen".... and of course, there are linguistic parodies of misunderstandings galore! Aida ------------------------------------------ On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 4:03 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Aida,I was born in the Boehmerwald and also grew up there. I left when I > was 18 years old, You can tell by the dialect what area a person is from. > The dialect in the north of Bohemia is quite different from the southern > parts of the country. > Just thought I put my 5 cents in. > > Happy New Year to all > Susie > > > > > In a message dated 1/3/2010 5:52:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > No I am not an expert on this, but we are talking two distinct languages, > one a Germanic one the other a Slavic. They are easy to distinguish, > while > dialects, for instance, are not as quickly to recognize and to place, > unless you are a linguist. > Aida > > -------------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 3:22 PM, frank <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Aida: It is my understanding that there was a common language, but that > the > > spoken dialects were different, and one would know where the speaker was > > from immediately. Much like modern Euro French and Canadian French. > > > > But you are the expert on this. True or not? > > > > Frank Heidl Slocum > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> > > To: <[email protected]> > > Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 6:08 PM > > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > > > > > > > Indeed, Daniel, the German and Czech speech boundaries were used to > > define > > > the so called Sudetenland, and it was in 1938 that these ethnic groups > > > separated. Prior to that, and all during the monarchy's rules for > over > > > 400 > > > years, they were never separated. There is no doubt that the > influence > > of > > > politics separated these people while they had a history of peaceful > > > coexistence and dependence on one another. Actually, their cruel > > > separation > > > came with the influence of religion and political interest. Although > > > German > > > speaking pockets are found historically all through Bohemia, there > were > > > hardly any Czech speaking people in Western Bohemia before 1918, > > > particularly in the area called " Egerland" which originally belonged > to > > > Bavaria. However, there were Slavic Sorbs (or Sorbo) within the East > > > part > > > of Germany, in the location from Lusatia to southern Berlin. Wherever > > two > > > speech boundaries meet, the languages there spoken become > > interchangeable. > > > You are finding the same here on the North American continent, for > > > instance > > > in Canada where French and English are adjoined, and Spanish and > > English > > > in the Southern States. > > > Aida > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 1:46 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> Thank you Aida, > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> It is wonderful that you share with all of us your vast knowledge of > the > > >> German - Bohemian history. > > >> > > >> My father family is full Bohemian, but when I talked to my > Grandfather > > >> years ago he seemed to > > >> > > >> believe there was not a real border between them. Both Grandparents > > knew > > >> how to speak both > > >> > > >> languages. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> As part of my mother's family, we have always thought of the Hughes > > >> family > > >> as from Wales. As I dug > > >> > > >> further in history, I have found that the Hughes family were German > > >> family > > >> who immigrated to Wales > > >> > > >> in the 11 to 12 century. They were a mining family who moved to new > > >> sources in Wales, then on to > > >> > > >> Wisconsin in the late 1800's. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Daniel Nechkash > > >> > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> > > >> To: [email protected] > > >> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 9:53:56 PM GMT -05:00 Colombia > > >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > > >> > > >> I think I can provide some insight into the theory that they came > with > > >> glassworkers from Bohemia to Poland, but again, we have to go back > to > > >> history to trace the probable trail of your ancestors. Never forget > > >> that the Austrian Hungarian Empire lasted over 400 years and > > >> encompassed a huge area. This area was split into 9 countires after > > >> WW1 (1918) and hence you find the original residents of Austria all > of > > >> a sudden in "other country". Austria Hungary was a multiethnical > > >> country, something Europe is trying to achieve now, and outside > forces > > >> tore it apart when it was already in existence and a great military > > >> threat to Great Britain. > > >> Now we come to the glasswork theory. Bohemia also was a part of > > >> Austria Hungary, and has very close ties to provinces of France, > > >> namely Luxembourg (the Luxemburgers were Bohemian Kings) and > > >> Alsace/Lorraine as well as part of Belgium. So... what do I see? I > > >> see a trail.... and especially since the nobility is involved who > were > > >> the first to start up industries. Bohemia had huge glass and > > >> porcelain manufacture, so had France. It is most likely that the > > >> nobility took their best craftsmen with their retinue to other areas > > >> of the Empire. > > >> All you have to do is to search for historical maps on the > > >> internet. Look at the old Austrian Hungarian map and then look where > > >> your ancestors lived, and you will see that they were all within the > > >> borders of the Empire. You'll find that the Austrian Hungarian > > >> Monarchy encompassed within her original borders lands that are now > > >> split away from the ancient motherland and were arbitrarily given to > > >> Poland, Romania, Italy, and alsao entirely new countries were > invented > > >> in 1918 like Cechoslovakia and Yugoslavia at the Treaty of Trianon. > > >> This was to appease the Slavic Nations who never had a homeland of > > >> their own. Therefore, I am sure that the place you call "Poland" was > > >> the Galicia of Austria Hungary. > > >> This trail may explain your Kichard from France to the German > > >> Glasswork areas of Bohemia, and from there to Poland. To bear this > > >> out, I can assure you that I have French Names in my own family who > > >> were Germans from French provinces and I found them even farther > East > > >> along the Danube, than yours. > > >> Aida > > >> > > >> On 12/16/09, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > Hello again, > > >> > > > >> > Thank you, Aida and Frank, for responding to my question about > > whether > > >> my > > >> > Kichard ancestors were of German origin. I'll follow-up on the > > >> suggestions > > >> > in your e-mails. > > >> > > > >> > I had previously heard from a German native that the Kichard name > was > > >> > likely not of German origin, but I had reason to believe otherwise, > as > > >> > I > > >> > mention below. > > >> > > > >> > I still have Kichard family living in south-east Poland, and they > > >> > believe > > >> > they are of German heritage. > > >> > > > >> > The book, "Opis Powiatu Jasielskiego", a geographical gazetteer > > >> published > > >> > in Poland in 1908, describes the villages in that area of Poland. > It > > >> > states that my first Kichard ancestor, Jakub Kichard, arrived > there > > in > > >> the > > >> > late > > >> > 1700's with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers to set-up and > > >> > operate > > >> a > > >> > glass-works for a Polish nobleman who was building a church and > > castle > > >> > nearby. > > >> > > > >> > Archive records show that my Kichard ancestors lived in that > village > > >> > from > > >> > that time up to 1945, almost 200 years, until the communist > > government > > >> > forced all of the residents to move from the village at that time. > > >> > > > >> > Elderly Kichard relatives who once lived in that village and were > > among > > >> > those forced to move out in 1945, still say that when they had > lived > > >> there, > > >> > that when their young friends who also lived there were coming to > > visit > > >> > them, and were asked by their family where they were going, they > would > > >> > say,"to > > >> > see the Germans". > > >> > > > >> > Thus, family history and the above says that Kichard is a "German" > > >> > name. > > >> > > > >> > However, since my first Kichard ancestor arrived in that area of > > Poland > > >> > with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers, perhaps it is a Czech > > name > > >> that > > >> > is derived from an earlier German name. > > >> > > > >> > Any of your comments and further suggestions on my Kichard search > will > > >> > be > > >> > appreciated. > > >> > > > >> > Thank you all again. > > >> > > > >> > Andy > > >> > Pittsburgh, PA > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > >> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >> > ------------------------------- > > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> > without > > >> the > > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >> ------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > >> ------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the > subject and the body of the message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

We had high German in School based on the Vienna accent, with one hour of Czech as second language during our school day. This went until 1938 and the occupation by Hitler. Then our school curriculum was matched to the German system, and our Kurrent writing was changed to Sutterlin and then Latin lettering. When the Latin lettering was abolished in Highschool, our books then were no longer printed in Fraktur (like old Gothic lettering) but the same you see here on this Email - Latin as basis for different fonts. With the infiltration of Reichsgerman students, the German patois became a mix, as to from what area the other children were coming from. Eventually the speech used was high German with either Prussian, Bavarian or Austrian inflection. The Egerland had their own dialect based on the Bavarian Oberpfalz. Aida On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 3:57 PM, frank <[email protected]> wrote: > Aida: I was thinking about Bohemian German and Deutschland German, not > Slavic. You learned Bohemian German as a child, yes? > > Frank > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 6:50 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > > > > No I am not an expert on this, but we are talking two distinct languages, > > one a Germanic one the other a Slavic. They are easy to distinguish, > > while > > dialects, for instance, are not as quickly to recognize and to place, > > unless you are a linguist. > > Aida > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 3:22 PM, frank <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Aida: It is my understanding that there was a common language, but that > >> the > >> spoken dialects were different, and one would know where the speaker was > >> from immediately. Much like modern Euro French and Canadian French. > >> > >> But you are the expert on this. True or not? > >> > >> Frank Heidl Slocum > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> > >> To: <[email protected]> > >> Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 6:08 PM > >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > >> > >> > >> > Indeed, Daniel, the German and Czech speech boundaries were used to > >> define > >> > the so called Sudetenland, and it was in 1938 that these ethnic groups > >> > separated. Prior to that, and all during the monarchy's rules for > over > >> > 400 > >> > years, they were never separated. There is no doubt that the > influence > >> of > >> > politics separated these people while they had a history of peaceful > >> > coexistence and dependence on one another. Actually, their cruel > >> > separation > >> > came with the influence of religion and political interest. Although > >> > German > >> > speaking pockets are found historically all through Bohemia, there > were > >> > hardly any Czech speaking people in Western Bohemia before 1918, > >> > particularly in the area called " Egerland" which originally belonged > >> > to > >> > Bavaria. However, there were Slavic Sorbs (or Sorbo) within the East > >> > part > >> > of Germany, in the location from Lusatia to southern Berlin. Wherever > >> two > >> > speech boundaries meet, the languages there spoken become > >> interchangeable. > >> > You are finding the same here on the North American continent, for > >> > instance > >> > in Canada where French and English are adjoined, and Spanish and > >> English > >> > in the Southern States. > >> > Aida > >> > > >> > ---------------------------------------------- > >> > > >> > On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 1:46 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Thank you Aida, > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> It is wonderful that you share with all of us your vast knowledge of > >> >> the > >> >> German - Bohemian history. > >> >> > >> >> My father family is full Bohemian, but when I talked to my > Grandfather > >> >> years ago he seemed to > >> >> > >> >> believe there was not a real border between them. Both Grandparents > >> knew > >> >> how to speak both > >> >> > >> >> languages. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> As part of my mother's family, we have always thought of the Hughes > >> >> family > >> >> as from Wales. As I dug > >> >> > >> >> further in history, I have found that the Hughes family were German > >> >> family > >> >> who immigrated to Wales > >> >> > >> >> in the 11 to 12 century. They were a mining family who moved to new > >> >> sources in Wales, then on to > >> >> > >> >> Wisconsin in the late 1800's. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Daniel Nechkash > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> > >> >> To: [email protected] > >> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 9:53:56 PM GMT -05:00 Colombia > >> >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > >> >> > >> >> I think I can provide some insight into the theory that they came > with > >> >> glassworkers from Bohemia to Poland, but again, we have to go back to > >> >> history to trace the probable trail of your ancestors. Never forget > >> >> that the Austrian Hungarian Empire lasted over 400 years and > >> >> encompassed a huge area. This area was split into 9 countires after > >> >> WW1 (1918) and hence you find the original residents of Austria all > of > >> >> a sudden in "other country". Austria Hungary was a multiethnical > >> >> country, something Europe is trying to achieve now, and outside > forces > >> >> tore it apart when it was already in existence and a great military > >> >> threat to Great Britain. > >> >> Now we come to the glasswork theory. Bohemia also was a part of > >> >> Austria Hungary, and has very close ties to provinces of France, > >> >> namely Luxembourg (the Luxemburgers were Bohemian Kings) and > >> >> Alsace/Lorraine as well as part of Belgium. So... what do I see? I > >> >> see a trail.... and especially since the nobility is involved who > were > >> >> the first to start up industries. Bohemia had huge glass and > >> >> porcelain manufacture, so had France. It is most likely that the > >> >> nobility took their best craftsmen with their retinue to other areas > >> >> of the Empire. > >> >> All you have to do is to search for historical maps on the > >> >> internet. Look at the old Austrian Hungarian map and then look where > >> >> your ancestors lived, and you will see that they were all within the > >> >> borders of the Empire. You'll find that the Austrian Hungarian > >> >> Monarchy encompassed within her original borders lands that are now > >> >> split away from the ancient motherland and were arbitrarily given to > >> >> Poland, Romania, Italy, and alsao entirely new countries were > invented > >> >> in 1918 like Cechoslovakia and Yugoslavia at the Treaty of Trianon. > >> >> This was to appease the Slavic Nations who never had a homeland of > >> >> their own. Therefore, I am sure that the place you call "Poland" was > >> >> the Galicia of Austria Hungary. > >> >> This trail may explain your Kichard from France to the German > >> >> Glasswork areas of Bohemia, and from there to Poland. To bear this > >> >> out, I can assure you that I have French Names in my own family who > >> >> were Germans from French provinces and I found them even farther > East > >> >> along the Danube, than yours. > >> >> Aida > >> >> > >> >> On 12/16/09, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> > Hello again, > >> >> > > >> >> > Thank you, Aida and Frank, for responding to my question about > >> whether > >> >> my > >> >> > Kichard ancestors were of German origin. I'll follow-up on the > >> >> suggestions > >> >> > in your e-mails. > >> >> > > >> >> > I had previously heard from a German native that the Kichard name > >> >> > was > >> >> > likely not of German origin, but I had reason to believe otherwise, > >> >> > as > >> >> > I > >> >> > mention below. > >> >> > > >> >> > I still have Kichard family living in south-east Poland, and they > >> >> > believe > >> >> > they are of German heritage. > >> >> > > >> >> > The book, "Opis Powiatu Jasielskiego", a geographical gazetteer > >> >> published > >> >> > in Poland in 1908, describes the villages in that area of Poland. > >> >> > It > >> >> > states that my first Kichard ancestor, Jakub Kichard, arrived > there > >> in > >> >> the > >> >> > late > >> >> > 1700's with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers to set-up and > >> >> > operate > >> >> a > >> >> > glass-works for a Polish nobleman who was building a church and > >> castle > >> >> > nearby. > >> >> > > >> >> > Archive records show that my Kichard ancestors lived in that > village > >> >> > from > >> >> > that time up to 1945, almost 200 years, until the communist > >> government > >> >> > forced all of the residents to move from the village at that time. > >> >> > > >> >> > Elderly Kichard relatives who once lived in that village and were > >> among > >> >> > those forced to move out in 1945, still say that when they had > lived > >> >> there, > >> >> > that when their young friends who also lived there were coming to > >> visit > >> >> > them, and were asked by their family where they were going, they > >> >> > would > >> >> > say,"to > >> >> > see the Germans". > >> >> > > >> >> > Thus, family history and the above says that Kichard is a "German" > >> >> > name. > >> >> > > >> >> > However, since my first Kichard ancestor arrived in that area of > >> Poland > >> >> > with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers, perhaps it is a Czech > >> name > >> >> that > >> >> > is derived from an earlier German name. > >> >> > > >> >> > Any of your comments and further suggestions on my Kichard search > >> >> > will > >> >> > be > >> >> > appreciated. > >> >> > > >> >> > Thank you all again. > >> >> > > >> >> > Andy > >> >> > Pittsburgh, PA > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >> >> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> >> > ------------------------------- > >> >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> >> > without > >> >> the > >> >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> >> > > >> >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> >> ------------------------------- > >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > >> >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> >> ------------------------------- > >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > >> >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> > ------------------------------- > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> > without > >> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > >> > > >> > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

The administrative language in more than 400 years of the Austrian Hungarian Monarchy was German. In 1866 Panslavistic Movements brought back their rights to "ethnicity" and then the Monarchy allowed a predominantly used ethnic language of a particular area as their everyday administrative language, so after 1866 we find the church registers no longer in Latin but in the local language, like Czech, Polish, Slovakian, Slovenian, Slawonian, Croatian, Serb, Italian, Hungarian, Romanian, Ukraine/Russian and many others. And then, under these, there were sub dialects as to locality. Dialects are based on an existing literary language. The administrative and legal language (Courts, etc.) was German, the international language (Diplomatic documents like passports) were in French. Aida ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 3:22 PM, frank <[email protected]> wrote: > Aida: It is my understanding that there was a common language, but that the > spoken dialects were different, and one would know where the speaker was > from immediately. Much like modern Euro French and Canadian French. > > But you are the expert on this. True or not? > > Frank Heidl Slocum > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 6:08 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > > > > Indeed, Daniel, the German and Czech speech boundaries were used to > define > > the so called Sudetenland, and it was in 1938 that these ethnic groups > > separated. Prior to that, and all during the monarchy's rules for over > > 400 > > years, they were never separated. There is no doubt that the influence > of > > politics separated these people while they had a history of peaceful > > coexistence and dependence on one another. Actually, their cruel > > separation > > came with the influence of religion and political interest. Although > > German > > speaking pockets are found historically all through Bohemia, there were > > hardly any Czech speaking people in Western Bohemia before 1918, > > particularly in the area called " Egerland" which originally belonged to > > Bavaria. However, there were Slavic Sorbs (or Sorbo) within the East > > part > > of Germany, in the location from Lusatia to southern Berlin. Wherever > two > > speech boundaries meet, the languages there spoken become > interchangeable. > > You are finding the same here on the North American continent, for > > instance > > in Canada where French and English are adjoined, and Spanish and > English > > in the Southern States. > > Aida > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 1:46 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> Thank you Aida, > >> > >> > >> > >> It is wonderful that you share with all of us your vast knowledge of the > >> German - Bohemian history. > >> > >> My father family is full Bohemian, but when I talked to my Grandfather > >> years ago he seemed to > >> > >> believe there was not a real border between them. Both Grandparents > knew > >> how to speak both > >> > >> languages. > >> > >> > >> > >> As part of my mother's family, we have always thought of the Hughes > >> family > >> as from Wales. As I dug > >> > >> further in history, I have found that the Hughes family were German > >> family > >> who immigrated to Wales > >> > >> in the 11 to 12 century. They were a mining family who moved to new > >> sources in Wales, then on to > >> > >> Wisconsin in the late 1800's. > >> > >> > >> > >> Daniel Nechkash > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> > >> To: [email protected] > >> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 9:53:56 PM GMT -05:00 Colombia > >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > >> > >> I think I can provide some insight into the theory that they came with > >> glassworkers from Bohemia to Poland, but again, we have to go back to > >> history to trace the probable trail of your ancestors. Never forget > >> that the Austrian Hungarian Empire lasted over 400 years and > >> encompassed a huge area. This area was split into 9 countires after > >> WW1 (1918) and hence you find the original residents of Austria all of > >> a sudden in "other country". Austria Hungary was a multiethnical > >> country, something Europe is trying to achieve now, and outside forces > >> tore it apart when it was already in existence and a great military > >> threat to Great Britain. > >> Now we come to the glasswork theory. Bohemia also was a part of > >> Austria Hungary, and has very close ties to provinces of France, > >> namely Luxembourg (the Luxemburgers were Bohemian Kings) and > >> Alsace/Lorraine as well as part of Belgium. So... what do I see? I > >> see a trail.... and especially since the nobility is involved who were > >> the first to start up industries. Bohemia had huge glass and > >> porcelain manufacture, so had France. It is most likely that the > >> nobility took their best craftsmen with their retinue to other areas > >> of the Empire. > >> All you have to do is to search for historical maps on the > >> internet. Look at the old Austrian Hungarian map and then look where > >> your ancestors lived, and you will see that they were all within the > >> borders of the Empire. You'll find that the Austrian Hungarian > >> Monarchy encompassed within her original borders lands that are now > >> split away from the ancient motherland and were arbitrarily given to > >> Poland, Romania, Italy, and alsao entirely new countries were invented > >> in 1918 like Cechoslovakia and Yugoslavia at the Treaty of Trianon. > >> This was to appease the Slavic Nations who never had a homeland of > >> their own. Therefore, I am sure that the place you call "Poland" was > >> the Galicia of Austria Hungary. > >> This trail may explain your Kichard from France to the German > >> Glasswork areas of Bohemia, and from there to Poland. To bear this > >> out, I can assure you that I have French Names in my own family who > >> were Germans from French provinces and I found them even farther East > >> along the Danube, than yours. > >> Aida > >> > >> On 12/16/09, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > Hello again, > >> > > >> > Thank you, Aida and Frank, for responding to my question about > whether > >> my > >> > Kichard ancestors were of German origin. I'll follow-up on the > >> suggestions > >> > in your e-mails. > >> > > >> > I had previously heard from a German native that the Kichard name was > >> > likely not of German origin, but I had reason to believe otherwise, as > >> > I > >> > mention below. > >> > > >> > I still have Kichard family living in south-east Poland, and they > >> > believe > >> > they are of German heritage. > >> > > >> > The book, "Opis Powiatu Jasielskiego", a geographical gazetteer > >> published > >> > in Poland in 1908, describes the villages in that area of Poland. It > >> > states that my first Kichard ancestor, Jakub Kichard, arrived there > in > >> the > >> > late > >> > 1700's with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers to set-up and > >> > operate > >> a > >> > glass-works for a Polish nobleman who was building a church and > castle > >> > nearby. > >> > > >> > Archive records show that my Kichard ancestors lived in that village > >> > from > >> > that time up to 1945, almost 200 years, until the communist > government > >> > forced all of the residents to move from the village at that time. > >> > > >> > Elderly Kichard relatives who once lived in that village and were > among > >> > those forced to move out in 1945, still say that when they had lived > >> there, > >> > that when their young friends who also lived there were coming to > visit > >> > them, and were asked by their family where they were going, they would > >> > say,"to > >> > see the Germans". > >> > > >> > Thus, family history and the above says that Kichard is a "German" > >> > name. > >> > > >> > However, since my first Kichard ancestor arrived in that area of > Poland > >> > with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers, perhaps it is a Czech > name > >> that > >> > is derived from an earlier German name. > >> > > >> > Any of your comments and further suggestions on my Kichard search will > >> > be > >> > appreciated. > >> > > >> > Thank you all again. > >> > > >> > Andy > >> > Pittsburgh, PA > >> > > >> > > >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> > ------------------------------- > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> > without > >> the > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

No I am not an expert on this, but we are talking two distinct languages, one a Germanic one the other a Slavic. They are easy to distinguish, while dialects, for instance, are not as quickly to recognize and to place, unless you are a linguist. Aida -------------------------------------------------- On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 3:22 PM, frank <[email protected]> wrote: > Aida: It is my understanding that there was a common language, but that the > spoken dialects were different, and one would know where the speaker was > from immediately. Much like modern Euro French and Canadian French. > > But you are the expert on this. True or not? > > Frank Heidl Slocum > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 6:08 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > > > > Indeed, Daniel, the German and Czech speech boundaries were used to > define > > the so called Sudetenland, and it was in 1938 that these ethnic groups > > separated. Prior to that, and all during the monarchy's rules for over > > 400 > > years, they were never separated. There is no doubt that the influence > of > > politics separated these people while they had a history of peaceful > > coexistence and dependence on one another. Actually, their cruel > > separation > > came with the influence of religion and political interest. Although > > German > > speaking pockets are found historically all through Bohemia, there were > > hardly any Czech speaking people in Western Bohemia before 1918, > > particularly in the area called " Egerland" which originally belonged to > > Bavaria. However, there were Slavic Sorbs (or Sorbo) within the East > > part > > of Germany, in the location from Lusatia to southern Berlin. Wherever > two > > speech boundaries meet, the languages there spoken become > interchangeable. > > You are finding the same here on the North American continent, for > > instance > > in Canada where French and English are adjoined, and Spanish and > English > > in the Southern States. > > Aida > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 1:46 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> Thank you Aida, > >> > >> > >> > >> It is wonderful that you share with all of us your vast knowledge of the > >> German - Bohemian history. > >> > >> My father family is full Bohemian, but when I talked to my Grandfather > >> years ago he seemed to > >> > >> believe there was not a real border between them. Both Grandparents > knew > >> how to speak both > >> > >> languages. > >> > >> > >> > >> As part of my mother's family, we have always thought of the Hughes > >> family > >> as from Wales. As I dug > >> > >> further in history, I have found that the Hughes family were German > >> family > >> who immigrated to Wales > >> > >> in the 11 to 12 century. They were a mining family who moved to new > >> sources in Wales, then on to > >> > >> Wisconsin in the late 1800's. > >> > >> > >> > >> Daniel Nechkash > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Aida Kraus" <[email protected]> > >> To: [email protected] > >> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 9:53:56 PM GMT -05:00 Colombia > >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Heidl and Prokosch > >> > >> I think I can provide some insight into the theory that they came with > >> glassworkers from Bohemia to Poland, but again, we have to go back to > >> history to trace the probable trail of your ancestors. Never forget > >> that the Austrian Hungarian Empire lasted over 400 years and > >> encompassed a huge area. This area was split into 9 countires after > >> WW1 (1918) and hence you find the original residents of Austria all of > >> a sudden in "other country". Austria Hungary was a multiethnical > >> country, something Europe is trying to achieve now, and outside forces > >> tore it apart when it was already in existence and a great military > >> threat to Great Britain. > >> Now we come to the glasswork theory. Bohemia also was a part of > >> Austria Hungary, and has very close ties to provinces of France, > >> namely Luxembourg (the Luxemburgers were Bohemian Kings) and > >> Alsace/Lorraine as well as part of Belgium. So... what do I see? I > >> see a trail.... and especially since the nobility is involved who were > >> the first to start up industries. Bohemia had huge glass and > >> porcelain manufacture, so had France. It is most likely that the > >> nobility took their best craftsmen with their retinue to other areas > >> of the Empire. > >> All you have to do is to search for historical maps on the > >> internet. Look at the old Austrian Hungarian map and then look where > >> your ancestors lived, and you will see that they were all within the > >> borders of the Empire. You'll find that the Austrian Hungarian > >> Monarchy encompassed within her original borders lands that are now > >> split away from the ancient motherland and were arbitrarily given to > >> Poland, Romania, Italy, and alsao entirely new countries were invented > >> in 1918 like Cechoslovakia and Yugoslavia at the Treaty of Trianon. > >> This was to appease the Slavic Nations who never had a homeland of > >> their own. Therefore, I am sure that the place you call "Poland" was > >> the Galicia of Austria Hungary. > >> This trail may explain your Kichard from France to the German > >> Glasswork areas of Bohemia, and from there to Poland. To bear this > >> out, I can assure you that I have French Names in my own family who > >> were Germans from French provinces and I found them even farther East > >> along the Danube, than yours. > >> Aida > >> > >> On 12/16/09, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > Hello again, > >> > > >> > Thank you, Aida and Frank, for responding to my question about > whether > >> my > >> > Kichard ancestors were of German origin. I'll follow-up on the > >> suggestions > >> > in your e-mails. > >> > > >> > I had previously heard from a German native that the Kichard name was > >> > likely not of German origin, but I had reason to believe otherwise, as > >> > I > >> > mention below. > >> > > >> > I still have Kichard family living in south-east Poland, and they > >> > believe > >> > they are of German heritage. > >> > > >> > The book, "Opis Powiatu Jasielskiego", a geographical gazetteer > >> published > >> > in Poland in 1908, describes the villages in that area of Poland. It > >> > states that my first Kichard ancestor, Jakub Kichard, arrived there > in > >> the > >> > late > >> > 1700's with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers to set-up and > >> > operate > >> a > >> > glass-works for a Polish nobleman who was building a church and > castle > >> > nearby. > >> > > >> > Archive records show that my Kichard ancestors lived in that village > >> > from > >> > that time up to 1945, almost 200 years, until the communist > government > >> > forced all of the residents to move from the village at that time. > >> > > >> > Elderly Kichard relatives who once lived in that village and were > among > >> > those forced to move out in 1945, still say that when they had lived > >> there, > >> > that when their young friends who also lived there were coming to > visit > >> > them, and were asked by their family where they were going, they would > >> > say,"to > >> > see the Germans". > >> > > >> > Thus, family history and the above says that Kichard is a "German" > >> > name. > >> > > >> > However, since my first Kichard ancestor arrived in that area of > Poland > >> > with other "Germanized-Czech" glass-workers, perhaps it is a Czech > name > >> that > >> > is derived from an earlier German name. > >> > > >> > Any of your comments and further suggestions on my Kichard search will > >> > be > >> > appreciated. > >> > > >> > Thank you all again. > >> > > >> > Andy > >> > Pittsburgh, PA > >> > > >> > > >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> > ------------------------------- > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> > without > >> the > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >