Graslitz (Kraslice) is in the Egerland on the foot of the Erzgebirge (Kruzne Hory) between Eger (Cheb) and Karlsbad (Karlovy Vary) if you want to find it on the map. A good source is www.mapy.cz The Egerland was 100% German before the expulsion of all Germans from there in 1945-1947. Graslitz was known for the manufacture of musical instruments. You can access German Church Registers archived at Plzen (Pilsen) through your computer by going on this web site (you will have to register, but it is free). http://actapublica.eu/index.php To navigate this site, search in the archives of the German Bohemian List and you will find instruction how to navigate acta publica. Look under that subject where you will find lengthy discussions and instructions. To enter this site key in: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Aida On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 8:57 AM, <acmbjc@aol.com> wrote: > > Regarding the post below from ppk1501@ymail.com, I would like to search > the Plzen archives for the Staniek surname. My ancestors came to western > PA in 1853, and have found them listed on the Castle Garden site as leaving > Bremen. They considered themselves German, although the Staniek surname > appears to be Slavik. Family records have them living in Graslitz now > Kraslice. Any help will be most appreciated. > > Thank you. > > > Marybeth C. > acmbjc@aol.com > > =========================================================== > > > Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 18:27:35 -0800 (PST) > From: Patricia Moos <ppk1502@ymail.com> > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Req: German-Bohemian boundaries > > > > Yes, thank you for the reply.? I already know where it is and how to find > it.? I > have corresponded with people there.? I have found and copied BMD records > online > at the Plzen Archive site. > ? > ? I simply wanted to know whether or not if this Kocin in question is > considered > to lie within the unclear and ephemeral boundaries which you folks on this > list > refer to as German-Bohemian, and/or Sudetenland.? All of that is unclear > to me. > ? > THE REASON I ASK IS THIS: > ? > "My" Kocin in question seems to lie A LITTLE SOUTH of the SOUTHERN LIMIT > of the > Sudetenland or German-Bohemian boundary on the map(s) you, Aida, posted. > ? > Therefore, my grandparents and great grandparents should have spoken > CZECH/Bohemian as a FIRST LANGUAGE. > ? > Yet it seems that they spoke German as a first language instead, and this > is the > language they spoke at home (other than English). > They DID SPEAK CZECH, but not as much. > ? > They said things such as, "Was ist hier denn los? > Or, " Was ist los mit dich?" ?[Should have said "...mit dir" -- dative > case] > They said,?"Es erfreut mir ihnen?kennenzulernen." > Or simply "Erfreut mir." > "Gute nacht.? Schl?ft wohl." > "Guten Morgen.? Hast du viel Hunger f?r den Speck und Eier? > "Was zum Teufel machst du da?!" > "Bis du ganz verrucht?" > "Ach!? Da? ist Schnapsidee!" > ? > They cooked simple dishes such as Schenkenflecken and Judlicki or J?dlichi > (spelling?).?? No one seems to heard of the latter.? From the root, it > appears?that it might?be of Jewish origin. > ? > But they also said, "Jak se mas?" > "Ja bily parodni baba." > ? > My great grandfather was very tall, and he would jokingly call a short > fellow a > "spunt," or "Spund," the former of which is Czech for "dwarf" or "elf"?and > the > latter German for "bung" or "plug" in a beer barrel.? Both are pronounced > virtually the same and both could metaphorically refer to a short guy.? For > example: > ?"Siehst du da am jener kleiner?Spund aus?"? Er ist mein Boss."? > "Videt ze tam spunt?? On je muy sef. > I do not recall his using the word "zakrslika" for runt. > ? > Why should they be German speakers, being from Kocin, Kralovice, Plzen? > ? > P. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ? > ? > ? > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Aida, Like I said before - so rich in cultural nuances. I just LOVE it when you share these pearls. :) Elaine in Maine -----Original Message----- >From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >Sent: Jan 19, 2012 10:19 PM >To: Patricia Moos <ppk1502@ymail.com>, german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Req: German-Bohemian boundaries > >Pat, the entire Bohemian/Moravian area was a mish-mash of Germans, Czechs, >and Jews, a few Slovakians and Hungarians and a few fiddling Gypsies thrown >in for "entertainment". And the variety of food in those times - fresh >from the farms! It was a wonderful and colorful symbiosis among these >people, who rather drank beer and danced a polka. And that was so, until >politics started to tear people apart. Your family living in that typical >border area. There you flipped from one language to the other without much >thought. Don't forget: The so called Sudetenland was nearly 100% German, >but as you went towards the "Czech lands" or as they called it later "the >Protectorate" you find a country looking very much like a Swiss cheese, the >holes being German pockets all over Bohemia and Moravia. In fact there >were so many Germans that Czechoslovakia could only become a country by >highjacking Slovakia in order to achieve a Slavic majority. One village >was German, the next Czech, a Jewish Stettl in between. And since people >lived together they used both languages and a few Jewish expression >besides. That is what Bohemia was for the most part of its existence >during the Austrian Hungarian Monarchy. Once the Country of Czechoslovakia >was born, there was a squeeze on the Germans to "become Czech" - which did >not work - and once the Germans occupied the Sudetenland in 1938 and then >the Protectorate, there was the squeeze on the Czechs and Jews - and that >worked not at all. So, the easy symbiosis of our many ethnic groups >living together in the Monarchy was utterly destroyed by political forces, >opinions, religions, you name it.... People living there would never had >behaved the way they did had they been less influenced and able to work out >their difference among themselves. And as we all know now, these >instilled "opinions" set an end to the "golden years" as our grandparents >knew it. The Czechs were pushed towards Panslavism, the Germans towards the >Nazi Regime, which was the only alternative as not to succumb to the huge >influence of Communism, and when the Nazi regime fell, Communism rose >again.... But it was even before that, at the time when Germans were >expelled from their native land in 1945, where there lived for >centuries. Then, as the houses stood empty and forlorn, new people came >there to make a new home for themselves under a Communistic regime, and >while the spoils of war were rich, it was bitter for the Czech people. In >reality, our living together for so many centuries made us brothers >sharing a homeland and I think there is hardly an old timer, like myself, >who does not look with nostalgia to these times when we "were all >together." Austria Hungary was truly a cosmopolitan country. And now, 67 >years later, the trend of a United Europe is, indeed, much the same as the >old polyglott world of Old Austria Hungary. Perhaps a constitutional >monarchy could have rescued all of us, but for that the time was not yet >"ripe"..... but the consequences were terrible for each and every one of us >living there, Germans, Czechs and Jews. So.... your memory of your family >is from THAT charming space in time, when we intermingled: >Guten Appetit, Dobrou Chut and Lachaim. How rich we were! Know that you >have a vignette of life as a cherished memory. > Aida > >----------------------------------------------------- > >On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 6:27 PM, Patricia Moos <ppk1502@ymail.com> wrote: > >> Yes, thank you for the reply. I already know where it is and how to find >> it. I have corresponded with people there. I have found and copied BMD >> records online at the Plzen Archive site. >> >> I simply wanted to know whether or not if this Kocin in question is >> considered to lie within the unclear and ephemeral boundaries which you >> folks on this list refer to as German-Bohemian, and/or Sudetenland. All of >> that is unclear to me. >> >> THE REASON I ASK IS THIS: >> >> "My" Kocin in question seems to lie A LITTLE SOUTH of the SOUTHERN LIMIT >> of the Sudetenland or German-Bohemian boundary on the map(s) you, Aida, >> posted. >> >> Therefore, my grandparents and great grandparents should have spoken >> CZECH/Bohemian as a FIRST LANGUAGE. >> >> Yet it seems that they spoke German as a first language instead, and this >> is the language they spoke at home (other than English). >> They DID SPEAK CZECH, but not as much. >> >> They said things such as, "Was ist hier denn los? >> Or, " Was ist los mit dich?" [Should have said "...mit dir" -- dative >> case] >> They said, "Es erfreut mir ihnen kennenzulernen." >> Or simply "Erfreut mir." >> "Gute nacht. Schläft wohl." >> "Guten Morgen. Hast du viel Hunger für den Speck und Eier? >> "Was zum Teufel machst du da?!" >> "Bis du ganz verrucht?" >> "Ach! Daß ist Schnapsidee!" >> >> They cooked simple dishes such as Schenkenflecken and Judlicki or Jüdlichi >> (spelling?). No one seems to heard of the latter. From the root, it >> appears that it might be of Jewish origin. >> >> But they also said, "Jak se mas?" >> "Ja bily parodni baba." >> >> My great grandfather was very tall, and he would jokingly call a short >> fellow a "spunt," or "Spund," the former of which is Czech for "dwarf" or >> "elf" and the latter German for "bung" or "plug" in a beer barrel. Both >> are pronounced virtually the same and both could metaphorically refer to a >> short guy. For example: >> "Siehst du da am jener kleiner Spund aus?" Er ist mein Boss." >> "Videt ze tam spunt? On je muy sef. >> I do not recall his using the word "zakrslika" for runt. >> >> Why should they be German speakers, being from Kocin, Kralovice, Plzen? >> >> P. >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >> To: Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net>; german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >> Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 7:35 PM >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Req: German-Bohemian boundaries >> >> Kocin, Kralovice is in the Plzen area in the Czech speaking region of >> Bohemia (during the Monarchy). In that area, most Czech people spoke >> German, also. You can detect the ethnicity of you family in finding Kocin >> or Kralovice church records at the archives at Plzen. Kralovice >> (Kralowitz) is northeast of Plzen towards the Czech interior, and if you >> look at the map, Rakovnik is to the northeast, Stribro to the southwest. >> Go from Stribro northeast to Rakovnik and you should find it. Pilsen >> (Plzen) lies to the South. >> Since there is also a Kralowitz in the Bukovina, you will have to use the >> Kocin designation for a correct identification of the area and I found >> Kocin and Kralovice in the Plzen area. >> Aida >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net >> >wrote: >> >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Patricia Moos" <ppk1502@ymail.com> >> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com> >> > Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 4:22 PM >> > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Req: German-Bohemian boundaries >> > >> > >> > >Are people from the Kocin, Kralovice area >> > >> > >> > >> > Which one..there are two places that comply with this parameter. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >considered to be German-Bohemians? >> > >> > >> > let us know which village...give a map which shows the location. >> > >> > >> > >> > >It seems to be on or near the boundary and I cannot tell for sure from >> > >the maps. >> > >> > My great grandparents had a purely Czech names, but seemed to have >> > spoken German as a first language, since that is what they mostly taught >> > their children. They also spoke "Bohemian," as they called it, >> > >> > >> > >> > that is Czech language,. >> > >> > >> > > and something called "Slavisch," which I take to be Slovak, but am not >> > > sure. >> > >> > >> > >> > Slavisch means Slavic. Thus, they probably spoke Czech language, not >> > German. >> > >> > >> > >Would like to know your opinions. >> > >> > Pat >> > >> > ________ >> > >> > Lavrentiy >> > >> > >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am new to this site. I have found the language and ethnicity discussion extremely enlightening. I finally saw a mention of the Plzen area. My ancestors, Wenzl Lieber and Anna Nath came to the US from Rochlov (Rochlowa former German name) in about 1902. It is about a 20 minute drive west of Plzen. I visited there in 2010. I have several questions. Some "census" records for the village indicated that there were hundreds of Germans and about 10 Czechs. Is that enough to indicate the ethnicity of my family to be German. I have attached a birth record for my great aunt from that area. To be honest, between the old handwriting and my lack of knowledge of either language, I don't know which language it is. Maybe someone could help. I had a researcher in the area do some work for me to get this information. He said that many records of my ancestors are still in town halls and not in the archives. He was from Praha. So I assume that it would be quite a trip to get to the Rochlov area to perform more in depth research. Does anyone know a a researcher in the Plzen area? Last, and not related to language and ethnicity, I visited a house in this small village with the same house number as indicated on the birth record. I don't know much about Czech history and damage from any of the wars. Assuming the numbers have not changed, could this physically be the same house that my great grandparents lived in? Thanks for any information that you can provide. Mark On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 8:35 PM, Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> wrote: > Kocin, Kralovice is in the Plzen area in the Czech speaking region of > Bohemia (during the Monarchy). In that area, most Czech people spoke > German, also. You can detect the ethnicity of you family in finding Kocin > or Kralovice church records at the archives at Plzen. Kralovice > (Kralowitz) is northeast of Plzen towards the Czech interior, and if you > look at the map, Rakovnik is to the northeast, Stribro to the southwest. > Go from Stribro northeast to Rakovnik and you should find it. Pilsen > (Plzen) lies to the South. > Since there is also a Kralowitz in the Bukovina, you will have to use the > Kocin designation for a correct identification of the area and I found > Kocin and Kralovice in the Plzen area. > Aida > > > On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net > >wrote: > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Patricia Moos" <ppk1502@ymail.com> > > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 4:22 PM > > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Req: German-Bohemian boundaries > > > > > > >Are people from the Kocin, Kralovice area > > > > > > > > Which one..there are two places that comply with this parameter. > > > > > > > > > > >considered to be German-Bohemians? > > > > > > let us know which village...give a map which shows the location. > > > > > > > > >It seems to be on or near the boundary and I cannot tell for sure from > > >the maps. > > > > My great grandparents had a purely Czech names, but seemed to have > > spoken German as a first language, since that is what they mostly taught > > their children. They also spoke "Bohemian," as they called it, > > > > > > > > that is Czech language,. > > > > > > > and something called "Slavisch," which I take to be Slovak, but am not > > > sure. > > > > > > > > Slavisch means Slavic. Thus, they probably spoke Czech language, not > > German. > > > > > > >Would like to know your opinions. > > > > Pat > > > > ________ > > > > Lavrentiy > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Pat, the entire Bohemian/Moravian area was a mish-mash of Germans, Czechs, and Jews, a few Slovakians and Hungarians and a few fiddling Gypsies thrown in for "entertainment". And the variety of food in those times - fresh from the farms! It was a wonderful and colorful symbiosis among these people, who rather drank beer and danced a polka. And that was so, until politics started to tear people apart. Your family living in that typical border area. There you flipped from one language to the other without much thought. Don't forget: The so called Sudetenland was nearly 100% German, but as you went towards the "Czech lands" or as they called it later "the Protectorate" you find a country looking very much like a Swiss cheese, the holes being German pockets all over Bohemia and Moravia. In fact there were so many Germans that Czechoslovakia could only become a country by highjacking Slovakia in order to achieve a Slavic majority. One village was German, the next Czech, a Jewish Stettl in between. And since people lived together they used both languages and a few Jewish expression besides. That is what Bohemia was for the most part of its existence during the Austrian Hungarian Monarchy. Once the Country of Czechoslovakia was born, there was a squeeze on the Germans to "become Czech" - which did not work - and once the Germans occupied the Sudetenland in 1938 and then the Protectorate, there was the squeeze on the Czechs and Jews - and that worked not at all. So, the easy symbiosis of our many ethnic groups living together in the Monarchy was utterly destroyed by political forces, opinions, religions, you name it.... People living there would never had behaved the way they did had they been less influenced and able to work out their difference among themselves. And as we all know now, these instilled "opinions" set an end to the "golden years" as our grandparents knew it. The Czechs were pushed towards Panslavism, the Germans towards the Nazi Regime, which was the only alternative as not to succumb to the huge influence of Communism, and when the Nazi regime fell, Communism rose again.... But it was even before that, at the time when Germans were expelled from their native land in 1945, where there lived for centuries. Then, as the houses stood empty and forlorn, new people came there to make a new home for themselves under a Communistic regime, and while the spoils of war were rich, it was bitter for the Czech people. In reality, our living together for so many centuries made us brothers sharing a homeland and I think there is hardly an old timer, like myself, who does not look with nostalgia to these times when we "were all together." Austria Hungary was truly a cosmopolitan country. And now, 67 years later, the trend of a United Europe is, indeed, much the same as the old polyglott world of Old Austria Hungary. Perhaps a constitutional monarchy could have rescued all of us, but for that the time was not yet "ripe"..... but the consequences were terrible for each and every one of us living there, Germans, Czechs and Jews. So.... your memory of your family is from THAT charming space in time, when we intermingled: Guten Appetit, Dobrou Chut and Lachaim. How rich we were! Know that you have a vignette of life as a cherished memory. Aida ----------------------------------------------------- On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 6:27 PM, Patricia Moos <ppk1502@ymail.com> wrote: > Yes, thank you for the reply. I already know where it is and how to find > it. I have corresponded with people there. I have found and copied BMD > records online at the Plzen Archive site. > > I simply wanted to know whether or not if this Kocin in question is > considered to lie within the unclear and ephemeral boundaries which you > folks on this list refer to as German-Bohemian, and/or Sudetenland. All of > that is unclear to me. > > THE REASON I ASK IS THIS: > > "My" Kocin in question seems to lie A LITTLE SOUTH of the SOUTHERN LIMIT > of the Sudetenland or German-Bohemian boundary on the map(s) you, Aida, > posted. > > Therefore, my grandparents and great grandparents should have spoken > CZECH/Bohemian as a FIRST LANGUAGE. > > Yet it seems that they spoke German as a first language instead, and this > is the language they spoke at home (other than English). > They DID SPEAK CZECH, but not as much. > > They said things such as, "Was ist hier denn los? > Or, " Was ist los mit dich?" [Should have said "...mit dir" -- dative > case] > They said, "Es erfreut mir ihnen kennenzulernen." > Or simply "Erfreut mir." > "Gute nacht. Schläft wohl." > "Guten Morgen. Hast du viel Hunger für den Speck und Eier? > "Was zum Teufel machst du da?!" > "Bis du ganz verrucht?" > "Ach! Daß ist Schnapsidee!" > > They cooked simple dishes such as Schenkenflecken and Judlicki or Jüdlichi > (spelling?). No one seems to heard of the latter. From the root, it > appears that it might be of Jewish origin. > > But they also said, "Jak se mas?" > "Ja bily parodni baba." > > My great grandfather was very tall, and he would jokingly call a short > fellow a "spunt," or "Spund," the former of which is Czech for "dwarf" or > "elf" and the latter German for "bung" or "plug" in a beer barrel. Both > are pronounced virtually the same and both could metaphorically refer to a > short guy. For example: > "Siehst du da am jener kleiner Spund aus?" Er ist mein Boss." > "Videt ze tam spunt? On je muy sef. > I do not recall his using the word "zakrslika" for runt. > > Why should they be German speakers, being from Kocin, Kralovice, Plzen? > > P. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > To: Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net>; german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 7:35 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Req: German-Bohemian boundaries > > Kocin, Kralovice is in the Plzen area in the Czech speaking region of > Bohemia (during the Monarchy). In that area, most Czech people spoke > German, also. You can detect the ethnicity of you family in finding Kocin > or Kralovice church records at the archives at Plzen. Kralovice > (Kralowitz) is northeast of Plzen towards the Czech interior, and if you > look at the map, Rakovnik is to the northeast, Stribro to the southwest. > Go from Stribro northeast to Rakovnik and you should find it. Pilsen > (Plzen) lies to the South. > Since there is also a Kralowitz in the Bukovina, you will have to use the > Kocin designation for a correct identification of the area and I found > Kocin and Kralovice in the Plzen area. > Aida > > > On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net > >wrote: > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Patricia Moos" <ppk1502@ymail.com> > > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 4:22 PM > > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Req: German-Bohemian boundaries > > > > > > >Are people from the Kocin, Kralovice area > > > > > > > > Which one..there are two places that comply with this parameter. > > > > > > > > > > >considered to be German-Bohemians? > > > > > > let us know which village...give a map which shows the location. > > > > > > > > >It seems to be on or near the boundary and I cannot tell for sure from > > >the maps. > > > > My great grandparents had a purely Czech names, but seemed to have > > spoken German as a first language, since that is what they mostly taught > > their children. They also spoke "Bohemian," as they called it, > > > > > > > > that is Czech language,. > > > > > > > and something called "Slavisch," which I take to be Slovak, but am not > > > sure. > > > > > > > > Slavisch means Slavic. Thus, they probably spoke Czech language, not > > German. > > > > > > >Would like to know your opinions. > > > > Pat > > > > ________ > > > > Lavrentiy > > > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Yes, thank you for the reply.  I already know where it is and how to find it.  I have corresponded with people there.  I have found and copied BMD records online at the Plzen Archive site.     I simply wanted to know whether or not if this Kocin in question is considered to lie within the unclear and ephemeral boundaries which you folks on this list refer to as German-Bohemian, and/or Sudetenland.  All of that is unclear to me.   THE REASON I ASK IS THIS:   "My" Kocin in question seems to lie A LITTLE SOUTH of the SOUTHERN LIMIT of the Sudetenland or German-Bohemian boundary on the map(s) you, Aida, posted.   Therefore, my grandparents and great grandparents should have spoken CZECH/Bohemian as a FIRST LANGUAGE.   Yet it seems that they spoke German as a first language instead, and this is the language they spoke at home (other than English). They DID SPEAK CZECH, but not as much.   They said things such as, "Was ist hier denn los? Or, " Was ist los mit dich?"  [Should have said "...mit dir" -- dative case] They said, "Es erfreut mir ihnen kennenzulernen." Or simply "Erfreut mir." "Gute nacht.  Schläft wohl." "Guten Morgen.  Hast du viel Hunger für den Speck und Eier? "Was zum Teufel machst du da?!" "Bis du ganz verrucht?" "Ach!  Daß ist Schnapsidee!"   They cooked simple dishes such as Schenkenflecken and Judlicki or Jüdlichi (spelling?).   No one seems to heard of the latter.  From the root, it appears that it might be of Jewish origin.   But they also said, "Jak se mas?" "Ja bily parodni baba."   My great grandfather was very tall, and he would jokingly call a short fellow a "spunt," or "Spund," the former of which is Czech for "dwarf" or "elf" and the latter German for "bung" or "plug" in a beer barrel.  Both are pronounced virtually the same and both could metaphorically refer to a short guy.  For example:  "Siehst du da am jener kleiner Spund aus?"  Er ist mein Boss."  "Videt ze tam spunt?  On je muy sef. I do not recall his using the word "zakrslika" for runt.   Why should they be German speakers, being from Kocin, Kralovice, Plzen?   P. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------       ________________________________ From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> To: Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net>; german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 7:35 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Req: German-Bohemian boundaries Kocin, Kralovice is in the Plzen area in the Czech speaking region of Bohemia (during the Monarchy). In that area, most Czech people spoke German, also.  You can detect the ethnicity of you family in finding Kocin or Kralovice church records at the archives at Plzen.  Kralovice (Kralowitz) is northeast of Plzen towards the Czech interior, and if you look at the map, Rakovnik is to the northeast, Stribro to the southwest. Go from Stribro northeast to Rakovnik and you should find it.  Pilsen (Plzen) lies to the South. Since there is also a Kralowitz in the Bukovina, you will have to use the Kocin designation for a correct identification of the area and I found Kocin and Kralovice in the Plzen area. Aida On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net>wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Patricia Moos" <ppk1502@ymail.com> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 4:22 PM > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Req: German-Bohemian boundaries > > > >Are people from the Kocin, Kralovice area > > > > Which one..there are two places that comply with this parameter. > > > > > >considered to be German-Bohemians? > > > let us know which village...give a map which shows the location. > > > > >It seems to be on or near the boundary and I cannot tell for sure from > >the maps. > > My great grandparents had a purely Czech names, but seemed to have > spoken German as a first language, since that is what they mostly taught > their children. They also spoke "Bohemian," as they called it, > > > > that is Czech language,. > > > > and something called "Slavisch," which I take to be Slovak, but am not > > sure. > > > > Slavisch means Slavic.  Thus, they probably spoke Czech language, not > German. > > > >Would like to know your opinions. > > Pat > > ________ > > Lavrentiy > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

----- Original Message ----- From: "Patricia Moos" <ppk1502@ymail.com> To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 4:22 PM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Req: German-Bohemian boundaries >Are people from the Kocin, Kralovice area Which one..there are two places that comply with this parameter. >considered to be German-Bohemians? let us know which village...give a map which shows the location. >It seems to be on or near the boundary and I cannot tell for sure from >the maps. My great grandparents had a purely Czech names, but seemed to have spoken German as a first language, since that is what they mostly taught their children. They also spoke "Bohemian," as they called it, that is Czech language,. > and something called "Slavisch," which I take to be Slovak, but am not > sure. Slavisch means Slavic. Thus, they probably spoke Czech language, not German. >Would like to know your opinions. Pat ________ Lavrentiy

Kocin, Kralovice is in the Plzen area in the Czech speaking region of Bohemia (during the Monarchy). In that area, most Czech people spoke German, also. You can detect the ethnicity of you family in finding Kocin or Kralovice church records at the archives at Plzen. Kralovice (Kralowitz) is northeast of Plzen towards the Czech interior, and if you look at the map, Rakovnik is to the northeast, Stribro to the southwest. Go from Stribro northeast to Rakovnik and you should find it. Pilsen (Plzen) lies to the South. Since there is also a Kralowitz in the Bukovina, you will have to use the Kocin designation for a correct identification of the area and I found Kocin and Kralovice in the Plzen area. Aida On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Laurence Krupnak <LKrupnak@verizon.net>wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Patricia Moos" <ppk1502@ymail.com> > To: <GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 4:22 PM > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Req: German-Bohemian boundaries > > > >Are people from the Kocin, Kralovice area > > > > Which one..there are two places that comply with this parameter. > > > > > >considered to be German-Bohemians? > > > let us know which village...give a map which shows the location. > > > > >It seems to be on or near the boundary and I cannot tell for sure from > >the maps. > > My great grandparents had a purely Czech names, but seemed to have > spoken German as a first language, since that is what they mostly taught > their children. They also spoke "Bohemian," as they called it, > > > > that is Czech language,. > > > > and something called "Slavisch," which I take to be Slovak, but am not > > sure. > > > > Slavisch means Slavic. Thus, they probably spoke Czech language, not > German. > > > >Would like to know your opinions. > > Pat > > ________ > > Lavrentiy > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello Aida, I am new to this site. Please forgive me if I am not sending this to you in the right format. My Ancestors are from Czechoslovakia and I am trying to find out why one of the 'L's got dropped from our surname. My great grandfather was John Joseph Kolinger, born in Pribram in 1867. He came to the US about 1890 and settled in Chicago. In 1971 my dad managed to get a paper record of the birth certificate ('Rodny List') during a business trip to Prague. The birth certificate shows the name as Jan Kollinger (two L's). So it seems that for some reason my great-grandfather changed his name by dropping one of the 'L's when coming to the US. But, why, I have no idea. The family story is that he did do this, but we are not sure and do not know why. There are both Kolingers and Kollingers in the Czech Republic, so it makes me wonder if the birth certificate (attached) is incorrect? Interestingly, we have always pronounced our surname as though it had two "L's. The name is written as Kolinger, but pronounced Kollinger. Any insights you have on the likely reason for dropping the 'L' would be appreciated. Seems like a small thing, but I suspect it is tied to a desperate attempt to assimilate into the new homeland. I would also like to see if I can identify any family members who share the same great-great grandparents (Josef Kollinger and Marie (Turkova) Kollinger). Thank you very much. Joe Kolinger Joe Kolinger - Chief Technology Officer OfficeWork Software Office: (415) 898-2300 | Cell: (415) 246-7264 | Fax: (415) 598-1573 joe@officeworksoftware.com | www.officeworksoftware.com -----Original Message----- From: german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of german-bohemian-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 12:49 To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Subject: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 16 German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ Today's Topics: 1. Re: Distinction of Czech versus German surnames (Aida Kraus) 2. Re: German language in Bohemia (Robert Paulson) 3. Re: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 15 (ron krzmarzick) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:19:57 -0800 From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Distinction of Czech versus German surnames To: polloe@earthlink.net, german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <CAMswtwqDs9+XzPtA3nemXk-Mw-AseJQtG2qFfgnmko2d0XGK_A@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Elaine, it would help to keep this probability in mind, and if they went to Slovakia, you most likely have to figure on 3 languages: Slovakian, Hungarian and German. You detect a name that is derived from a profession, like Taylor, Cooper, Smith, etc. you can use the Google translator to find the equivalent in another language. But let me tell you beforehand, that this is rare indeed, they most likely used phonetics of the original name in their spelling. I have such a case in my family: DuMont. It is spelled Dimong, Demon, Damon, and Dimmon. To "sort it out" and actually find YOUR ancestor, you have to go by location, date and parentage, mate, children! As a rule of thumb, and what I encountered in my own research, I found that there was less "translation" of a name but phonetic aberrations. However, before 1800 it might be possible, and just as emigrants from other countries anglizised their names upon receiving US Citizenship. Be alert to all possibilities, because these findings are sometimes astounding and I have gone through the same church registers several times before I made the connection. So pay attention to what you read and speak the names out loud! Aida On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 11:54 AM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: > Aida, and All, > > Ya seem to raise an interesting issue below. If the Surname sometimes > changed from Czech to German or German to Czech depending on the area a > family lived in or moved to, then IF we have a "Brickwall", maybe it would > be good to look for the Surname as translated into the other language. > > Would the above be a good idea? > > How about with given names? Were they likely to change between languages > as well? I'm tracing a Karola. His marriage record in Trnava (now Slovakia) > (was Hungary) not far from the Czech border, lists his place of birth as > Brno. I have not found his Birth record from Brno CZ as yet. Is it likely I > will find variations of the Given Name as well? > > Thanks in advance, > > Elaine > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > >Sent: Jan 16, 2012 7:20 PM > >To: GBHS <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > >Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Distinction of Czech versus German female > surnames > > > >Under the Austrian Hungarian Empire most church records were written in > the > >language of its ethnic population after the 19th century. Throughout the > >Austrian Hungarian Empire there were more than 9 languages spoken (German, > >Hungarian, Slovakian, Czech, Polish, Ukrainian, Croatian, Serbian and > >Romanian and others). Actually, the Austrian Hungarian Empire was a > >fore-runner of what we have today in Europe - a "United Europe". Austria > >Hungary was very international and colorful, but with a dominant German or > >Hungarian administration for their regions. Regional administration used > >the language of their population. During the Empire years there were > > either predominantly German or Czech Cities and villages and many other > >ethnic population centers. > > When the Latin language of Catholic church registers was replaced by > >the language of the region, it is there that you will be able to tell the > >ethnicity of your ancestry by looking at the language used in these church > >records. Pay attention to your find and see if they were written either > in > >Czech or German and you will know your families ethnicity. Surnames do > >hardly pinpoint ethnicity, because intermarriage-names show as many to be > >translated to German as they were translated to Czech. For instance the > >German name Schmied (a smith) might be translated to the Czech > >equivalent: Kov?? > >when they moved into a predominantly Czech region; or the Czech family > by > >the name by Kovar might have acquired the German name of Schmied by moving > >to a predominantly German region.; so you really cannot tell just by > >surnames what ethnicity they might have had. Here is an example: You can > >be sure that the record shows in the Czech language if the female ending > > "ova" is at the end of the surname. Here is an example: > >The family surname "Schmied" would be listed as "Schmiedova or Smidova" > >found in a Czech register for a female. German records would never show > >the ending "ova" for a female, and the text would be German and the female > >name listed as Schmied or even Smid without the "ova" ending. However, in > >older records (end of 1700 and beginning of 1800) you might find the > ending > >"in" attached to a German surname for a German female, hence, "Schmiedin." > > So remember: "ova" = Czech, no ending or "in" ending = German. This is > >your key to ethnic distinction. > > Aida > > > > > >On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 3:17 PM, <nechkash@comcast.net> wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> I am quite sure of my father - my grandmother (the Wintra, Winter, > >> Winters, eta) family came from Vesele, Bohemia, Czech and several > >> surrounding villages in 1778. But my father - my grandfather (the > Neckar > >> lineage ), I am not sure. All that I know is John Neckar (my > gr-gr-father) > >> came through New York S tate to Wisconsin around 1854. I sometimes > wonder > >> if the Neckar were actually of German decent, and not Slavic. > >> > >> > >> > >> Dan Nechkash > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> > >> > >> From: "Aida Kraus" <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > >> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 4:49:48 PM > >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] 1929/30 Czech Census! > >> > >> Czech and German are two entirely different languages. Czech's base > roots > >> are Slavic and similar to Polish and Russian. German has its base in > >> Germanic language roots, like Austrian, Swiss, and is related to all > >> Scandinavian languages and German dialects. If your ancestral family > >> residing in Bohemia spoke both languages, they were bilingual. You > spoke > >> either German or Czech in Bohemia. The Czechs referred to their home > >> language as "Bohemian" and the Germans from Bohemia referred to their > home > >> dialect "Bohemian" when they were away from home and lived in America. > So > >> I hope that this will make you > >> aware that your family spoke two entirely different language, and now > you > >> have to find written records in either language to identify their > >> ethnicity. > >> Aida > >> > >> ----------------------------------------------- > >> > >> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 1:34 PM, <nechkash@comcast.net> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > Hello Aida, > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > My father was born as a second-generation US citizen in Wisconsin, but > >> > didn't speak English until he went to grade school (about 1931). The > >> > > >> > family and all the local's spoken only the native tongue (Bohemian). > He > >> > and my Aunt Mary always claimed they also understand German because > >> > > >> > it was similar enough to the Bohemian language? Is this the case? > >> > Thanks, > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Daniel Nechkash > >> > > >> > >> > >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:47:56 -0600 From: Robert Paulson <rpaulgb@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] German language in Bohemia To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <B9CC7E8A-EEB3-4782-937E-136D6EDC80D0@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Helen, A great many German speakers from the Bohemian Forest area migrated to Bukovina which parts of is now Romania. If you go to www.bukovinasociety.org you will find answers to you questions. Bob On Jan 18, 2012, at 10:33 AM, HELEN M WHITE wrote: > My Family ( Grandparents)are ;. Catholic- Farmers & woodcutters of > Bohemian forest. > Where exactly I do not know. It is said they spoke "Low German" > Does this give me a lead of how to find them in Bohemia before they > emigrated to > Paltinossa, Suceava dist.of Austrian Empire ...now Romania, abt 1817 > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> From Aida: I am highlighting some paragraphs of interest to us from the >> article submitted by Mr. Krupnak which highlights our Bohemian-German >> dialects spoken in Western Bohemia: >> Iink: >> >> http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/reworking-of-german-language-c lassification-part-3-high-german/ >> >> *Oberpf?lz North >> Bavarian< >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~janblotz/arnoldresearch3.h tm >>> >> * (Oberpf?lzerisch or Oberpf?lzisch) is a language spoken in southeastern >> Germany in central eastern and northeastern Bavaria from Regensburg, >> Kelheim and the Bavarian Forest north along the Naab River to the >> Fichtelgebirge (Fir Mountains) and in the Northern Bohemian Forest along >> the border with Czechoslovakia. It is also spoken up by Neumarkt. >> >> According to residents (Kirmaier 2009), this is a separate language, not >> intelligible with other German Bavarian lects. Dialects of this language >> include *Danube Oberpf?lzisch *, which, though different, is fully >> intelligible with the Oberpf?lzisch spoken in Neumarkt. This is the >> Oberpf?lzisch spoken along the Danube around the towns of Kelheim and >> Regensburg. >> >> *Bohemian German*< >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans_in_the_Czech_Republic >>> (Boehmerwaelderischish< >> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2007-05/117837 9647 >>> ) >> is a High German language spoken in Czechoslovakia, Germany and the US. It >> looks like both< >> http://books.google.com/books?id=8uxfTF4Lm-kC&pg=PA598&lpg=PA598&dq=%22bohem ian+german%22+dialect&source=bl&ots=4nnlM3ZukV&sig=yBfEQB1ndQSgikiFgVpWCo8C7 _E&hl=en&ei=5mK-SYfdFJmQsQP5uPBD&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result#PPA5 97,M1 >>> North >> and Central Bavarian. >> >> *Egerland Bohemian >> German*< >> http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_March_2000.pdf >>> (Egerlaenderisch) >> is spoken in Bischofteinitz, Mies, Tachau and Taus >> Counties in the Czech Republic in Western Bohemia and in and around New >> Ulm, Minnesota, where there are still speakers ranging from 52-98 years >> old. In the Czech Republic, each village had a separate dialect, but all >> dialects are intelligible. This appears to be a separate >> language< >> http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2006-05/1147996153 >>> from >> Oberpfalz Northern Bavarian. >> >> This seems to be the same language as * Sechs?mterland * spoken across the >> border. The Sechs?mterland dialect is spoken in the area around Selb, >> Wunsiedel, Hohenberg and Thierstein in the far northeast of Bavaria near >> the border with Czechoslovakia and Lower Saxony. >> >> Dialectal diversity is very high in this area, and every village has its >> own dialect. >> >> *Lauterbach* is a divergent dialect spoken east of Tirschenreuth on the >> Czech border. *Tiss* is a >> divergent< >> http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_March_2003.pdf >>> subdialect >> of Egerland. >> *Sangerberg* is a divergent Egerlaenderisch dialect spoken in Prameny, >> Czechoslovakia. *Cheb (note from Aida: I never heard of a dialect named >> "Cheb", as "Cheb" is the Czech translation for the city of Eger!) * is >> spoken in the large German city of the same name. *Tachauer* is a dialect >> that formed the >> basis<http://www.members.shaw.ca/brianmerz/Genealogy/folklore.htm>for >> the >> * Machliniec* dialect spoken formerly spoken by the Carpathian Germans in >> their language island in the Machliniec area of the Ukraine. They left >> during WW2. >> >> *German Central Bavarian* is a group of Bavarian lects that are spoken in >> Germany. This group includes Lower Bavarian, Upper Bavarian and *Lechrain >> Bavarian* (Lechrainisch). Lechrain Bavarian is spoken in Western Bavaria >> and is transitional to Swabian. Map of the Lechrain >> region<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lechrain.svg>. >> Lechrain is very >> different< >> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BAVARIAN-ANCESTORS/2001-10/100 3966871 >>> from >> the rest of Bavarian, but intelligibility data is lacking. >> >> Lower Bavarian includes the Bohemian Forest language and many dialects. >> >> Upper Bavarian includes the Starnberg, Highland and Meisbach languages and >> many dialects. >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > -- > *hwhitemc* > > "Live simply; Care deeply; Love generously;" and most importantly, "Speak > kindly." ...by Sam @ MTPR > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:48:30 -0600 From: "ron krzmarzick" <rlkrz@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 15 To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <201201182048.q0IKmVC9009599@mail.rootsweb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The links to Mr. Lindsay's seemingly exhaustive and interesting language studies are welcomed; however; I must say further that Mr.Lindsay's website reveal other subjects of an overwhelmingly political and even socio-racial nature the likes of which I have not seen before. Tread this site with caution. Ron -----Original Message----- From: german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of german-bohemian-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 1:55 PM To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Subject: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 15 German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ Today's Topics: 1. German language in Bohemia (Aida Kraus) 2. Re: German language in Bohemia (HELEN M WHITE) 3. Re: German language in Bohemia (Aida Kraus) 4. Re: Distinction of Czech versus German surnames (polloe@earthlink.net) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 08:05:23 -0800 From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] German language in Bohemia To: GBHS <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <CAMswtwqrP-TJFBd9s=sCrZ_4qhddXSFiQJzGe9Jwz+bc4wkggQ@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >From Aida: I am highlighting some paragraphs of interest to us from the article submitted by Mr. Krupnak which highlights our Bohemian-German dialects spoken in Western Bohemia: Iink: http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/reworking-of-german-language-c lassification-part-3-high-german/ *Oberpf?lz North Bavarian<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~janblotz/arnoldre search3.htm> * (Oberpf?lzerisch or Oberpf?lzisch) is a language spoken in southeastern Germany in central eastern and northeastern Bavaria from Regensburg, Kelheim and the Bavarian Forest north along the Naab River to the Fichtelgebirge (Fir Mountains) and in the Northern Bohemian Forest along the border with Czechoslovakia. It is also spoken up by Neumarkt. According to residents (Kirmaier 2009), this is a separate language, not intelligible with other German Bavarian lects. Dialects of this language include *Danube Oberpf?lzisch *, which, though different, is fully intelligible with the Oberpf?lzisch spoken in Neumarkt. This is the Oberpf?lzisch spoken along the Danube around the towns of Kelheim and Regensburg. *Bohemian German*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans_in_the_Czech_Republic>(Boehmerw aelderischish<http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/ 2007-05/1178379647>) is a High German language spoken in Czechoslovakia, Germany and the US. It looks like both<http://books.google.com/books?id=8uxfTF4Lm-kC&pg=PA598&lpg=PA598&dq=%22 bohemian+german%22+dialect&source=bl&ots=4nnlM3ZukV&sig=yBfEQB1ndQSgikiFgVpW Co8C7_E&hl=en&ei=5mK-SYfdFJmQsQP5uPBD&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result #PPA597,M1>North and Central Bavarian. *Egerland Bohemian German*<http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_March_ 2000.pdf>(Egerlaenderisch) is spoken in Bischofteinitz, Mies, Tachau and Taus Counties in the Czech Republic in Western Bohemia and in and around New Ulm, Minnesota, where there are still speakers ranging from 52-98 years old. In the Czech Republic, each village had a separate dialect, but all dialects are intelligible. This appears to be a separate language<http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2006-05/11 47996153>from Oberpfalz Northern Bavarian. This seems to be the same language as * Sechs?mterland * spoken across the border. The Sechs?mterland dialect is spoken in the area around Selb, Wunsiedel, Hohenberg and Thierstein in the far northeast of Bavaria near the border with Czechoslovakia and Lower Saxony. Dialectal diversity is very high in this area, and every village has its own dialect. *Lauterbach* is a divergent dialect spoken east of Tirschenreuth on the Czech border. *Tiss* is a divergent<http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_Marc h_2003.pdf>subdialect of Egerland. *Sangerberg* is a divergent Egerlaenderisch dialect spoken in Prameny, Czechoslovakia. *Cheb (note from Aida: I never heard of a dialect named "Cheb", as "Cheb" is the Czech translation for the city of Eger!) * is spoken in the large German city of the same name. *Tachauer* is a dialect that formed the basis<http://www.members.shaw.ca/brianmerz/Genealogy/folklore.htm>for the * Machliniec* dialect spoken formerly spoken by the Carpathian Germans in their language island in the Machliniec area of the Ukraine. They left during WW2. *German Central Bavarian* is a group of Bavarian lects that are spoken in Germany. This group includes Lower Bavarian, Upper Bavarian and *Lechrain Bavarian* (Lechrainisch). Lechrain Bavarian is spoken in Western Bavaria and is transitional to Swabian. Map of the Lechrain region<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lechrain.svg>. Lechrain is very different<http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BAVARIAN-ANCESTORS/2 001-10/1003966871>from the rest of Bavarian, but intelligibility data is lacking. Lower Bavarian includes the Bohemian Forest language and many dialects. Upper Bavarian includes the Starnberg, Highland and Meisbach languages and many dialects. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:33:44 -0700 From: HELEN M WHITE <hwhitemc8309@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] German language in Bohemia To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <CALTeD8u9M3cxtTmGuE1ht_P68Aao8BjSjSPDGc7B8v03uca78w@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 My Family ( Grandparents)are ;. Catholic- Farmers & woodcutters of Bohemian forest. Where exactly I do not know. It is said they spoke "Low German" Does this give me a lead of how to find them in Bohemia before they emigrated to Paltinossa, Suceava dist.of Austrian Empire ...now Romania, abt 1817 On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> wrote: > >From Aida: I am highlighting some paragraphs of interest to us from the > article submitted by Mr. Krupnak which highlights our Bohemian-German > dialects spoken in Western Bohemia: > Iink: > > http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/reworking-of-german-language-c lassification-part-3-high-german/ > > *Oberpf?lz North > Bavarian< > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~janblotz/arnoldresearch3.h tm > > > * (Oberpf?lzerisch or Oberpf?lzisch) is a language spoken in southeastern > Germany in central eastern and northeastern Bavaria from Regensburg, > Kelheim and the Bavarian Forest north along the Naab River to the > Fichtelgebirge (Fir Mountains) and in the Northern Bohemian Forest along > the border with Czechoslovakia. It is also spoken up by Neumarkt. > > According to residents (Kirmaier 2009), this is a separate language, not > intelligible with other German Bavarian lects. Dialects of this language > include *Danube Oberpf?lzisch *, which, though different, is fully > intelligible with the Oberpf?lzisch spoken in Neumarkt. This is the > Oberpf?lzisch spoken along the Danube around the towns of Kelheim and > Regensburg. > > *Bohemian German*< > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans_in_the_Czech_Republic > >(Boehmerwaelderischish< > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2007-05/117837 9647 > >) > is a High German language spoken in Czechoslovakia, Germany and the US. It > looks like both< > http://books.google.com/books?id=8uxfTF4Lm-kC&pg=PA598&lpg=PA598&dq=%22bohem ian+german%22+dialect&source=bl&ots=4nnlM3ZukV&sig=yBfEQB1ndQSgikiFgVpWCo8C7 _E&hl=en&ei=5mK-SYfdFJmQsQP5uPBD&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result#PPA5 97,M1 > >North > and Central Bavarian. > > *Egerland Bohemian > German*< > http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_March_2000.pdf > >(Egerlaenderisch) > is spoken in Bischofteinitz, Mies, Tachau and Taus > Counties in the Czech Republic in Western Bohemia and in and around New > Ulm, Minnesota, where there are still speakers ranging from 52-98 years > old. In the Czech Republic, each village had a separate dialect, but all > dialects are intelligible. This appears to be a separate > language< > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2006-05/1147996153 > >from > Oberpfalz Northern Bavarian. > > This seems to be the same language as * Sechs?mterland * spoken across the > border. The Sechs?mterland dialect is spoken in the area around Selb, > Wunsiedel, Hohenberg and Thierstein in the far northeast of Bavaria near > the border with Czechoslovakia and Lower Saxony. > > Dialectal diversity is very high in this area, and every village has its > own dialect. > > *Lauterbach* is a divergent dialect spoken east of Tirschenreuth on the > Czech border. *Tiss* is a > divergent< > http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_March_2003.pdf > >subdialect > of Egerland. > *Sangerberg* is a divergent Egerlaenderisch dialect spoken in Prameny, > Czechoslovakia. *Cheb (note from Aida: I never heard of a dialect named > "Cheb", as "Cheb" is the Czech translation for the city of Eger!) * is > spoken in the large German city of the same name. *Tachauer* is a dialect > that formed the > basis<http://www.members.shaw.ca/brianmerz/Genealogy/folklore.htm>for > the > * Machliniec* dialect spoken formerly spoken by the Carpathian Germans in > their language island in the Machliniec area of the Ukraine. They left > during WW2. > > *German Central Bavarian* is a group of Bavarian lects that are spoken in > Germany. This group includes Lower Bavarian, Upper Bavarian and *Lechrain > Bavarian* (Lechrainisch). Lechrain Bavarian is spoken in Western Bavaria > and is transitional to Swabian. Map of the Lechrain > region<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lechrain.svg>. > Lechrain is very > different< > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BAVARIAN-ANCESTORS/2001-10/100 3966871 > >from > the rest of Bavarian, but intelligibility data is lacking. > > Lower Bavarian includes the Bohemian Forest language and many dialects. > > Upper Bavarian includes the Starnberg, Highland and Meisbach languages and > many dialects. > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- *hwhitemc* "Live simply; Care deeply; Love generously;" and most importantly, "Speak kindly." ...by Sam @ MTPR ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:45:44 -0800 From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] German language in Bohemia To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <CAMswtwq2=VjoH_zUCBJQehPHhF9wsuqEC0FsDwvbxZU7PXufWA@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Helen, the best way to find your family's origin is to go to the LDS Family Research Center in your area and look at the microfilms available (there are several rolls in alphabetical order of surnames) and you ca find them under the heading "Andsiedlerakten". This is a record of movement within the Austrian Hungarian Empire. If they went from Bohemia (part of the Empire) to Romania (which then was also part of the Empire) or from Bohemia to Galicia, for instance, their names should be recorded in that file. You could compare it to a move from one State of the US to another. There are records of these moves archived at the LDS. Good luck! Aida -------------------------------------- On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 8:33 AM, HELEN M WHITE <hwhitemc8309@gmail.com>wrote: > My Family ( Grandparents)are ;. Catholic- Farmers & woodcutters of > Bohemian forest. > Where exactly I do not know. It is said they spoke "Low German" > Does this give me a lead of how to find them in Bohemia before they > emigrated to > Paltinossa, Suceava dist.of Austrian Empire ...now Romania, abt 1817 > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > >From Aida: I am highlighting some paragraphs of interest to us from > the > > article submitted by Mr. Krupnak which highlights our Bohemian-German > > dialects spoken in Western Bohemia: > > Iink: > > > > > http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/reworking-of-german-language-c lassification-part-3-high-german/ > > > > *Oberpf?lz North > > Bavarian< > > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~janblotz/arnoldresearch3.h tm > > > > > * (Oberpf?lzerisch or Oberpf?lzisch) is a language spoken in southeastern > > Germany in central eastern and northeastern Bavaria from Regensburg, > > Kelheim and the Bavarian Forest north along the Naab River to the > > Fichtelgebirge (Fir Mountains) and in the Northern Bohemian Forest along > > the border with Czechoslovakia. It is also spoken up by Neumarkt. > > > > According to residents (Kirmaier 2009), this is a separate language, not > > intelligible with other German Bavarian lects. Dialects of this language > > include *Danube Oberpf?lzisch *, which, though different, is fully > > intelligible with the Oberpf?lzisch spoken in Neumarkt. This is the > > Oberpf?lzisch spoken along the Danube around the towns of Kelheim and > > Regensburg. > > > > *Bohemian German*< > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans_in_the_Czech_Republic > > >(Boehmerwaelderischish< > > > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2007-05/117837 9647 > > >) > > is a High German language spoken in Czechoslovakia, Germany and the US. > It > > looks like both< > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=8uxfTF4Lm-kC&pg=PA598&lpg=PA598&dq=%22bohem ian+german%22+dialect&source=bl&ots=4nnlM3ZukV&sig=yBfEQB1ndQSgikiFgVpWCo8C7 _E&hl=en&ei=5mK-SYfdFJmQsQP5uPBD&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result#PPA5 97,M1 > > >North > > and Central Bavarian. > > > > *Egerland Bohemian > > German*< > > > http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_March_2000.pdf > > >(Egerlaenderisch) > > is spoken in Bischofteinitz, Mies, Tachau and Taus > > Counties in the Czech Republic in Western Bohemia and in and around New > > Ulm, Minnesota, where there are still speakers ranging from 52-98 years > > old. In the Czech Republic, each village had a separate dialect, but all > > dialects are intelligible. This appears to be a separate > > language< > > > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2006-05/1147996153 > > >from > > Oberpfalz Northern Bavarian. > > > > This seems to be the same language as * Sechs?mterland * spoken across > the > > border. The Sechs?mterland dialect is spoken in the area around Selb, > > Wunsiedel, Hohenberg and Thierstein in the far northeast of Bavaria near > > the border with Czechoslovakia and Lower Saxony. > > > > Dialectal diversity is very high in this area, and every village has its > > own dialect. > > > > *Lauterbach* is a divergent dialect spoken east of Tirschenreuth on the > > Czech border. *Tiss* is a > > divergent< > > > http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_March_2003.pdf > > >subdialect > > of Egerland. > > *Sangerberg* is a divergent Egerlaenderisch dialect spoken in Prameny, > > Czechoslovakia. *Cheb (note from Aida: I never heard of a dialect > named > > "Cheb", as "Cheb" is the Czech translation for the city of Eger!) * is > > spoken in the large German city of the same name. *Tachauer* is a dialect > > that formed the > > basis<http://www.members.shaw.ca/brianmerz/Genealogy/folklore.htm>for > > the > > * Machliniec* dialect spoken formerly spoken by the Carpathian Germans in > > their language island in the Machliniec area of the Ukraine. They left > > during WW2. > > > > *German Central Bavarian* is a group of Bavarian lects that are spoken in > > Germany. This group includes Lower Bavarian, Upper Bavarian and *Lechrain > > Bavarian* (Lechrainisch). Lechrain Bavarian is spoken in Western Bavaria > > and is transitional to Swabian. Map of the Lechrain > > region<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lechrain.svg>. > > Lechrain is very > > different< > > > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BAVARIAN-ANCESTORS/2001-10/100 3966871 > > >from > > the rest of Bavarian, but intelligibility data is lacking. > > > > Lower Bavarian includes the Bohemian Forest language and many dialects. > > > > Upper Bavarian includes the Starnberg, Highland and Meisbach languages > and > > many dialects. > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > -- > *hwhitemc* > > "Live simply; Care deeply; Love generously;" and most importantly, "Speak > kindly." ...by Sam @ MTPR > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:54:31 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: polloe@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Distinction of Czech versus German surnames To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <11718795.1326916472465.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Aida, and All, Ya seem to raise an interesting issue below. If the Surname sometimes changed from Czech to German or German to Czech depending on the area a family lived in or moved to, then IF we have a "Brickwall", maybe it would be good to look for the Surname as translated into the other language. Would the above be a good idea? How about with given names? Were they likely to change between languages as well? I'm tracing a Karola. His marriage record in Trnava (now Slovakia) (was Hungary) not far from the Czech border, lists his place of birth as Brno. I have not found his Birth record from Brno CZ as yet. Is it likely I will find variations of the Given Name as well? Thanks in advance, Elaine -----Original Message----- >From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >Sent: Jan 16, 2012 7:20 PM >To: GBHS <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> >Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Distinction of Czech versus German female surnames > >Under the Austrian Hungarian Empire most church records were written in the >language of its ethnic population after the 19th century. Throughout the >Austrian Hungarian Empire there were more than 9 languages spoken (German, >Hungarian, Slovakian, Czech, Polish, Ukrainian, Croatian, Serbian and >Romanian and others). Actually, the Austrian Hungarian Empire was a >fore-runner of what we have today in Europe - a "United Europe". Austria >Hungary was very international and colorful, but with a dominant German or >Hungarian administration for their regions. Regional administration used >the language of their population. During the Empire years there were > either predominantly German or Czech Cities and villages and many other >ethnic population centers. > When the Latin language of Catholic church registers was replaced by >the language of the region, it is there that you will be able to tell the >ethnicity of your ancestry by looking at the language used in these church >records. Pay attention to your find and see if they were written either in >Czech or German and you will know your families ethnicity. Surnames do >hardly pinpoint ethnicity, because intermarriage-names show as many to be >translated to German as they were translated to Czech. For instance the >German name Schmied (a smith) might be translated to the Czech >equivalent: Kov?? >when they moved into a predominantly Czech region; or the Czech family by >the name by Kovar might have acquired the German name of Schmied by moving >to a predominantly German region.; so you really cannot tell just by >surnames what ethnicity they might have had. Here is an example: You can >be sure that the record shows in the Czech language if the female ending > "ova" is at the end of the surname. Here is an example: >The family surname "Schmied" would be listed as "Schmiedova or Smidova" >found in a Czech register for a female. German records would never show >the ending "ova" for a female, and the text would be German and the female >name listed as Schmied or even Smid without the "ova" ending. However, in >older records (end of 1700 and beginning of 1800) you might find the ending >"in" attached to a German surname for a German female, hence, "Schmiedin." > So remember: "ova" = Czech, no ending or "in" ending = German. This is >your key to ethnic distinction. > Aida > > >On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 3:17 PM, <nechkash@comcast.net> wrote: > >> >> >> I am quite sure of my father - my grandmother (the Wintra, Winter, >> Winters, eta) family came from Vesele, Bohemia, Czech and several >> surrounding villages in 1778. But my father - my grandfather (the Neckar >> lineage ), I am not sure. All that I know is John Neckar (my gr-gr-father) >> came through New York S tate to Wisconsin around 1854. I sometimes wonder >> if the Neckar were actually of German decent, and not Slavic. >> >> >> >> Dan Nechkash >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> From: "Aida Kraus" <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 4:49:48 PM >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] 1929/30 Czech Census! >> >> Czech and German are two entirely different languages. Czech's base roots >> are Slavic and similar to Polish and Russian. German has its base in >> Germanic language roots, like Austrian, Swiss, and is related to all >> Scandinavian languages and German dialects. If your ancestral family >> residing in Bohemia spoke both languages, they were bilingual. You spoke >> either German or Czech in Bohemia. The Czechs referred to their home >> language as "Bohemian" and the Germans from Bohemia referred to their home >> dialect "Bohemian" when they were away from home and lived in America. So >> I hope that this will make you >> aware that your family spoke two entirely different language, and now you >> have to find written records in either language to identify their >> ethnicity. >> Aida >> >> ----------------------------------------------- >> >> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 1:34 PM, <nechkash@comcast.net> wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > Hello Aida, >> > >> > >> > >> > My father was born as a second-generation US citizen in Wisconsin, but >> > didn't speak English until he went to grade school (about 1931). The >> > >> > family and all the local's spoken only the native tongue (Bohemian). He >> > and my Aunt Mary always claimed they also understand German because >> > >> > it was similar enough to the Bohemian language? Is this the case? >> > Thanks, >> > >> > >> > >> > Daniel Nechkash >> > >> >> >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ To contact the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN list administrator, send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-admin@rootsweb.com. To post a message to the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN mailing list, send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com. __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 15 ********************************************** ------------------------------ To contact the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN list administrator, send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-admin@rootsweb.com. To post a message to the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN mailing list, send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com. __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 16 **********************************************

Are people from the Kocin, Kralovice area considered to be German-Bohemians?  It seems to be on or near the boundary and I cannot tell for sure from the maps. My great grandparents had a purely Czech names, but seemed to have spoken German as a first language, since that is what they mostly taught their children.  They also spoke "Bohemian," as they called it, and something called "Slavisch," which I take to be Slovak, but am not sure. Would like to know your opinions. Pat

Aida, and All, Ya seem to raise an interesting issue below. If the Surname sometimes changed from Czech to German or German to Czech depending on the area a family lived in or moved to, then IF we have a "Brickwall", maybe it would be good to look for the Surname as translated into the other language. Would the above be a good idea? How about with given names? Were they likely to change between languages as well? I'm tracing a Karola. His marriage record in Trnava (now Slovakia) (was Hungary) not far from the Czech border, lists his place of birth as Brno. I have not found his Birth record from Brno CZ as yet. Is it likely I will find variations of the Given Name as well? Thanks in advance, Elaine -----Original Message----- >From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >Sent: Jan 16, 2012 7:20 PM >To: GBHS <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> >Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Distinction of Czech versus German female surnames > >Under the Austrian Hungarian Empire most church records were written in the >language of its ethnic population after the 19th century. Throughout the >Austrian Hungarian Empire there were more than 9 languages spoken (German, >Hungarian, Slovakian, Czech, Polish, Ukrainian, Croatian, Serbian and >Romanian and others). Actually, the Austrian Hungarian Empire was a >fore-runner of what we have today in Europe - a "United Europe". Austria >Hungary was very international and colorful, but with a dominant German or >Hungarian administration for their regions. Regional administration used >the language of their population. During the Empire years there were > either predominantly German or Czech Cities and villages and many other >ethnic population centers. > When the Latin language of Catholic church registers was replaced by >the language of the region, it is there that you will be able to tell the >ethnicity of your ancestry by looking at the language used in these church >records. Pay attention to your find and see if they were written either in >Czech or German and you will know your families ethnicity. Surnames do >hardly pinpoint ethnicity, because intermarriage-names show as many to be >translated to German as they were translated to Czech. For instance the >German name Schmied (a smith) might be translated to the Czech >equivalent: Kovář >when they moved into a predominantly Czech region; or the Czech family by >the name by Kovar might have acquired the German name of Schmied by moving >to a predominantly German region.; so you really cannot tell just by >surnames what ethnicity they might have had. Here is an example: You can >be sure that the record shows in the Czech language if the female ending > "ova" is at the end of the surname. Here is an example: >The family surname "Schmied" would be listed as "Schmiedova or Smidova" >found in a Czech register for a female. German records would never show >the ending "ova" for a female, and the text would be German and the female >name listed as Schmied or even Smid without the "ova" ending. However, in >older records (end of 1700 and beginning of 1800) you might find the ending >"in" attached to a German surname for a German female, hence, "Schmiedin." > So remember: "ova" = Czech, no ending or "in" ending = German. This is >your key to ethnic distinction. > Aida > > >On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 3:17 PM, <nechkash@comcast.net> wrote: > >> >> >> I am quite sure of my father - my grandmother (the Wintra, Winter, >> Winters, eta) family came from Vesele, Bohemia, Czech and several >> surrounding villages in 1778. But my father - my grandfather (the Neckar >> lineage ), I am not sure. All that I know is John Neckar (my gr-gr-father) >> came through New York S tate to Wisconsin around 1854. I sometimes wonder >> if the Neckar were actually of German decent, and not Slavic. >> >> >> >> Dan Nechkash >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> From: "Aida Kraus" <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 4:49:48 PM >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] 1929/30 Czech Census! >> >> Czech and German are two entirely different languages. Czech's base roots >> are Slavic and similar to Polish and Russian. German has its base in >> Germanic language roots, like Austrian, Swiss, and is related to all >> Scandinavian languages and German dialects. If your ancestral family >> residing in Bohemia spoke both languages, they were bilingual. You spoke >> either German or Czech in Bohemia. The Czechs referred to their home >> language as "Bohemian" and the Germans from Bohemia referred to their home >> dialect "Bohemian" when they were away from home and lived in America. So >> I hope that this will make you >> aware that your family spoke two entirely different language, and now you >> have to find written records in either language to identify their >> ethnicity. >> Aida >> >> ----------------------------------------------- >> >> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 1:34 PM, <nechkash@comcast.net> wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > Hello Aida, >> > >> > >> > >> > My father was born as a second-generation US citizen in Wisconsin, but >> > didn't speak English until he went to grade school (about 1931). The >> > >> > family and all the local's spoken only the native tongue (Bohemian). He >> > and my Aunt Mary always claimed they also understand German because >> > >> > it was similar enough to the Bohemian language? Is this the case? >> > Thanks, >> > >> > >> > >> > Daniel Nechkash >> > >> >> >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The links to Mr. Lindsay's seemingly exhaustive and interesting language studies are welcomed; however; I must say further that Mr.Lindsay's website reveal other subjects of an overwhelmingly political and even socio-racial nature the likes of which I have not seen before. Tread this site with caution. Ron -----Original Message----- From: german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:german-bohemian-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of german-bohemian-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 1:55 PM To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Subject: GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 15 German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ Today's Topics: 1. German language in Bohemia (Aida Kraus) 2. Re: German language in Bohemia (HELEN M WHITE) 3. Re: German language in Bohemia (Aida Kraus) 4. Re: Distinction of Czech versus German surnames (polloe@earthlink.net) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 08:05:23 -0800 From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] German language in Bohemia To: GBHS <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <CAMswtwqrP-TJFBd9s=sCrZ_4qhddXSFiQJzGe9Jwz+bc4wkggQ@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >From Aida: I am highlighting some paragraphs of interest to us from the article submitted by Mr. Krupnak which highlights our Bohemian-German dialects spoken in Western Bohemia: Iink: http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/reworking-of-german-language-c lassification-part-3-high-german/ *Oberpf?lz North Bavarian<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~janblotz/arnoldre search3.htm> * (Oberpf?lzerisch or Oberpf?lzisch) is a language spoken in southeastern Germany in central eastern and northeastern Bavaria from Regensburg, Kelheim and the Bavarian Forest north along the Naab River to the Fichtelgebirge (Fir Mountains) and in the Northern Bohemian Forest along the border with Czechoslovakia. It is also spoken up by Neumarkt. According to residents (Kirmaier 2009), this is a separate language, not intelligible with other German Bavarian lects. Dialects of this language include *Danube Oberpf?lzisch *, which, though different, is fully intelligible with the Oberpf?lzisch spoken in Neumarkt. This is the Oberpf?lzisch spoken along the Danube around the towns of Kelheim and Regensburg. *Bohemian German*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans_in_the_Czech_Republic>(Boehmerw aelderischish<http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/ 2007-05/1178379647>) is a High German language spoken in Czechoslovakia, Germany and the US. It looks like both<http://books.google.com/books?id=8uxfTF4Lm-kC&pg=PA598&lpg=PA598&dq=%22 bohemian+german%22+dialect&source=bl&ots=4nnlM3ZukV&sig=yBfEQB1ndQSgikiFgVpW Co8C7_E&hl=en&ei=5mK-SYfdFJmQsQP5uPBD&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result #PPA597,M1>North and Central Bavarian. *Egerland Bohemian German*<http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_March_ 2000.pdf>(Egerlaenderisch) is spoken in Bischofteinitz, Mies, Tachau and Taus Counties in the Czech Republic in Western Bohemia and in and around New Ulm, Minnesota, where there are still speakers ranging from 52-98 years old. In the Czech Republic, each village had a separate dialect, but all dialects are intelligible. This appears to be a separate language<http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2006-05/11 47996153>from Oberpfalz Northern Bavarian. This seems to be the same language as * Sechs?mterland * spoken across the border. The Sechs?mterland dialect is spoken in the area around Selb, Wunsiedel, Hohenberg and Thierstein in the far northeast of Bavaria near the border with Czechoslovakia and Lower Saxony. Dialectal diversity is very high in this area, and every village has its own dialect. *Lauterbach* is a divergent dialect spoken east of Tirschenreuth on the Czech border. *Tiss* is a divergent<http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_Marc h_2003.pdf>subdialect of Egerland. *Sangerberg* is a divergent Egerlaenderisch dialect spoken in Prameny, Czechoslovakia. *Cheb (note from Aida: I never heard of a dialect named "Cheb", as "Cheb" is the Czech translation for the city of Eger!) * is spoken in the large German city of the same name. *Tachauer* is a dialect that formed the basis<http://www.members.shaw.ca/brianmerz/Genealogy/folklore.htm>for the * Machliniec* dialect spoken formerly spoken by the Carpathian Germans in their language island in the Machliniec area of the Ukraine. They left during WW2. *German Central Bavarian* is a group of Bavarian lects that are spoken in Germany. This group includes Lower Bavarian, Upper Bavarian and *Lechrain Bavarian* (Lechrainisch). Lechrain Bavarian is spoken in Western Bavaria and is transitional to Swabian. Map of the Lechrain region<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lechrain.svg>. Lechrain is very different<http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BAVARIAN-ANCESTORS/2 001-10/1003966871>from the rest of Bavarian, but intelligibility data is lacking. Lower Bavarian includes the Bohemian Forest language and many dialects. Upper Bavarian includes the Starnberg, Highland and Meisbach languages and many dialects. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 09:33:44 -0700 From: HELEN M WHITE <hwhitemc8309@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] German language in Bohemia To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <CALTeD8u9M3cxtTmGuE1ht_P68Aao8BjSjSPDGc7B8v03uca78w@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 My Family ( Grandparents)are ;. Catholic- Farmers & woodcutters of Bohemian forest. Where exactly I do not know. It is said they spoke "Low German" Does this give me a lead of how to find them in Bohemia before they emigrated to Paltinossa, Suceava dist.of Austrian Empire ...now Romania, abt 1817 On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> wrote: > >From Aida: I am highlighting some paragraphs of interest to us from the > article submitted by Mr. Krupnak which highlights our Bohemian-German > dialects spoken in Western Bohemia: > Iink: > > http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/reworking-of-german-language-c lassification-part-3-high-german/ > > *Oberpf?lz North > Bavarian< > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~janblotz/arnoldresearch3.h tm > > > * (Oberpf?lzerisch or Oberpf?lzisch) is a language spoken in southeastern > Germany in central eastern and northeastern Bavaria from Regensburg, > Kelheim and the Bavarian Forest north along the Naab River to the > Fichtelgebirge (Fir Mountains) and in the Northern Bohemian Forest along > the border with Czechoslovakia. It is also spoken up by Neumarkt. > > According to residents (Kirmaier 2009), this is a separate language, not > intelligible with other German Bavarian lects. Dialects of this language > include *Danube Oberpf?lzisch *, which, though different, is fully > intelligible with the Oberpf?lzisch spoken in Neumarkt. This is the > Oberpf?lzisch spoken along the Danube around the towns of Kelheim and > Regensburg. > > *Bohemian German*< > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans_in_the_Czech_Republic > >(Boehmerwaelderischish< > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2007-05/117837 9647 > >) > is a High German language spoken in Czechoslovakia, Germany and the US. It > looks like both< > http://books.google.com/books?id=8uxfTF4Lm-kC&pg=PA598&lpg=PA598&dq=%22bohem ian+german%22+dialect&source=bl&ots=4nnlM3ZukV&sig=yBfEQB1ndQSgikiFgVpWCo8C7 _E&hl=en&ei=5mK-SYfdFJmQsQP5uPBD&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result#PPA5 97,M1 > >North > and Central Bavarian. > > *Egerland Bohemian > German*< > http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_March_2000.pdf > >(Egerlaenderisch) > is spoken in Bischofteinitz, Mies, Tachau and Taus > Counties in the Czech Republic in Western Bohemia and in and around New > Ulm, Minnesota, where there are still speakers ranging from 52-98 years > old. In the Czech Republic, each village had a separate dialect, but all > dialects are intelligible. This appears to be a separate > language< > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2006-05/1147996153 > >from > Oberpfalz Northern Bavarian. > > This seems to be the same language as * Sechs?mterland * spoken across the > border. The Sechs?mterland dialect is spoken in the area around Selb, > Wunsiedel, Hohenberg and Thierstein in the far northeast of Bavaria near > the border with Czechoslovakia and Lower Saxony. > > Dialectal diversity is very high in this area, and every village has its > own dialect. > > *Lauterbach* is a divergent dialect spoken east of Tirschenreuth on the > Czech border. *Tiss* is a > divergent< > http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_March_2003.pdf > >subdialect > of Egerland. > *Sangerberg* is a divergent Egerlaenderisch dialect spoken in Prameny, > Czechoslovakia. *Cheb (note from Aida: I never heard of a dialect named > "Cheb", as "Cheb" is the Czech translation for the city of Eger!) * is > spoken in the large German city of the same name. *Tachauer* is a dialect > that formed the > basis<http://www.members.shaw.ca/brianmerz/Genealogy/folklore.htm>for > the > * Machliniec* dialect spoken formerly spoken by the Carpathian Germans in > their language island in the Machliniec area of the Ukraine. They left > during WW2. > > *German Central Bavarian* is a group of Bavarian lects that are spoken in > Germany. This group includes Lower Bavarian, Upper Bavarian and *Lechrain > Bavarian* (Lechrainisch). Lechrain Bavarian is spoken in Western Bavaria > and is transitional to Swabian. Map of the Lechrain > region<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lechrain.svg>. > Lechrain is very > different< > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BAVARIAN-ANCESTORS/2001-10/100 3966871 > >from > the rest of Bavarian, but intelligibility data is lacking. > > Lower Bavarian includes the Bohemian Forest language and many dialects. > > Upper Bavarian includes the Starnberg, Highland and Meisbach languages and > many dialects. > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- *hwhitemc* "Live simply; Care deeply; Love generously;" and most importantly, "Speak kindly." ...by Sam @ MTPR ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 10:45:44 -0800 From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] German language in Bohemia To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <CAMswtwq2=VjoH_zUCBJQehPHhF9wsuqEC0FsDwvbxZU7PXufWA@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Helen, the best way to find your family's origin is to go to the LDS Family Research Center in your area and look at the microfilms available (there are several rolls in alphabetical order of surnames) and you ca find them under the heading "Andsiedlerakten". This is a record of movement within the Austrian Hungarian Empire. If they went from Bohemia (part of the Empire) to Romania (which then was also part of the Empire) or from Bohemia to Galicia, for instance, their names should be recorded in that file. You could compare it to a move from one State of the US to another. There are records of these moves archived at the LDS. Good luck! Aida -------------------------------------- On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 8:33 AM, HELEN M WHITE <hwhitemc8309@gmail.com>wrote: > My Family ( Grandparents)are ;. Catholic- Farmers & woodcutters of > Bohemian forest. > Where exactly I do not know. It is said they spoke "Low German" > Does this give me a lead of how to find them in Bohemia before they > emigrated to > Paltinossa, Suceava dist.of Austrian Empire ...now Romania, abt 1817 > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > >From Aida: I am highlighting some paragraphs of interest to us from > the > > article submitted by Mr. Krupnak which highlights our Bohemian-German > > dialects spoken in Western Bohemia: > > Iink: > > > > > http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/reworking-of-german-language-c lassification-part-3-high-german/ > > > > *Oberpf?lz North > > Bavarian< > > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~janblotz/arnoldresearch3.h tm > > > > > * (Oberpf?lzerisch or Oberpf?lzisch) is a language spoken in southeastern > > Germany in central eastern and northeastern Bavaria from Regensburg, > > Kelheim and the Bavarian Forest north along the Naab River to the > > Fichtelgebirge (Fir Mountains) and in the Northern Bohemian Forest along > > the border with Czechoslovakia. It is also spoken up by Neumarkt. > > > > According to residents (Kirmaier 2009), this is a separate language, not > > intelligible with other German Bavarian lects. Dialects of this language > > include *Danube Oberpf?lzisch *, which, though different, is fully > > intelligible with the Oberpf?lzisch spoken in Neumarkt. This is the > > Oberpf?lzisch spoken along the Danube around the towns of Kelheim and > > Regensburg. > > > > *Bohemian German*< > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans_in_the_Czech_Republic > > >(Boehmerwaelderischish< > > > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2007-05/117837 9647 > > >) > > is a High German language spoken in Czechoslovakia, Germany and the US. > It > > looks like both< > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=8uxfTF4Lm-kC&pg=PA598&lpg=PA598&dq=%22bohem ian+german%22+dialect&source=bl&ots=4nnlM3ZukV&sig=yBfEQB1ndQSgikiFgVpWCo8C7 _E&hl=en&ei=5mK-SYfdFJmQsQP5uPBD&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result#PPA5 97,M1 > > >North > > and Central Bavarian. > > > > *Egerland Bohemian > > German*< > > > http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_March_2000.pdf > > >(Egerlaenderisch) > > is spoken in Bischofteinitz, Mies, Tachau and Taus > > Counties in the Czech Republic in Western Bohemia and in and around New > > Ulm, Minnesota, where there are still speakers ranging from 52-98 years > > old. In the Czech Republic, each village had a separate dialect, but all > > dialects are intelligible. This appears to be a separate > > language< > > > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2006-05/1147996153 > > >from > > Oberpfalz Northern Bavarian. > > > > This seems to be the same language as * Sechs?mterland * spoken across > the > > border. The Sechs?mterland dialect is spoken in the area around Selb, > > Wunsiedel, Hohenberg and Thierstein in the far northeast of Bavaria near > > the border with Czechoslovakia and Lower Saxony. > > > > Dialectal diversity is very high in this area, and every village has its > > own dialect. > > > > *Lauterbach* is a divergent dialect spoken east of Tirschenreuth on the > > Czech border. *Tiss* is a > > divergent< > > > http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_March_2003.pdf > > >subdialect > > of Egerland. > > *Sangerberg* is a divergent Egerlaenderisch dialect spoken in Prameny, > > Czechoslovakia. *Cheb (note from Aida: I never heard of a dialect > named > > "Cheb", as "Cheb" is the Czech translation for the city of Eger!) * is > > spoken in the large German city of the same name. *Tachauer* is a dialect > > that formed the > > basis<http://www.members.shaw.ca/brianmerz/Genealogy/folklore.htm>for > > the > > * Machliniec* dialect spoken formerly spoken by the Carpathian Germans in > > their language island in the Machliniec area of the Ukraine. They left > > during WW2. > > > > *German Central Bavarian* is a group of Bavarian lects that are spoken in > > Germany. This group includes Lower Bavarian, Upper Bavarian and *Lechrain > > Bavarian* (Lechrainisch). Lechrain Bavarian is spoken in Western Bavaria > > and is transitional to Swabian. Map of the Lechrain > > region<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lechrain.svg>. > > Lechrain is very > > different< > > > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BAVARIAN-ANCESTORS/2001-10/100 3966871 > > >from > > the rest of Bavarian, but intelligibility data is lacking. > > > > Lower Bavarian includes the Bohemian Forest language and many dialects. > > > > Upper Bavarian includes the Starnberg, Highland and Meisbach languages > and > > many dialects. > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > -- > *hwhitemc* > > "Live simply; Care deeply; Love generously;" and most importantly, "Speak > kindly." ...by Sam @ MTPR > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:54:31 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: polloe@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Distinction of Czech versus German surnames To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <11718795.1326916472465.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Aida, and All, Ya seem to raise an interesting issue below. If the Surname sometimes changed from Czech to German or German to Czech depending on the area a family lived in or moved to, then IF we have a "Brickwall", maybe it would be good to look for the Surname as translated into the other language. Would the above be a good idea? How about with given names? Were they likely to change between languages as well? I'm tracing a Karola. His marriage record in Trnava (now Slovakia) (was Hungary) not far from the Czech border, lists his place of birth as Brno. I have not found his Birth record from Brno CZ as yet. Is it likely I will find variations of the Given Name as well? Thanks in advance, Elaine -----Original Message----- >From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >Sent: Jan 16, 2012 7:20 PM >To: GBHS <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> >Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Distinction of Czech versus German female surnames > >Under the Austrian Hungarian Empire most church records were written in the >language of its ethnic population after the 19th century. Throughout the >Austrian Hungarian Empire there were more than 9 languages spoken (German, >Hungarian, Slovakian, Czech, Polish, Ukrainian, Croatian, Serbian and >Romanian and others). Actually, the Austrian Hungarian Empire was a >fore-runner of what we have today in Europe - a "United Europe". Austria >Hungary was very international and colorful, but with a dominant German or >Hungarian administration for their regions. Regional administration used >the language of their population. During the Empire years there were > either predominantly German or Czech Cities and villages and many other >ethnic population centers. > When the Latin language of Catholic church registers was replaced by >the language of the region, it is there that you will be able to tell the >ethnicity of your ancestry by looking at the language used in these church >records. Pay attention to your find and see if they were written either in >Czech or German and you will know your families ethnicity. Surnames do >hardly pinpoint ethnicity, because intermarriage-names show as many to be >translated to German as they were translated to Czech. For instance the >German name Schmied (a smith) might be translated to the Czech >equivalent: Kov?? >when they moved into a predominantly Czech region; or the Czech family by >the name by Kovar might have acquired the German name of Schmied by moving >to a predominantly German region.; so you really cannot tell just by >surnames what ethnicity they might have had. Here is an example: You can >be sure that the record shows in the Czech language if the female ending > "ova" is at the end of the surname. Here is an example: >The family surname "Schmied" would be listed as "Schmiedova or Smidova" >found in a Czech register for a female. German records would never show >the ending "ova" for a female, and the text would be German and the female >name listed as Schmied or even Smid without the "ova" ending. However, in >older records (end of 1700 and beginning of 1800) you might find the ending >"in" attached to a German surname for a German female, hence, "Schmiedin." > So remember: "ova" = Czech, no ending or "in" ending = German. This is >your key to ethnic distinction. > Aida > > >On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 3:17 PM, <nechkash@comcast.net> wrote: > >> >> >> I am quite sure of my father - my grandmother (the Wintra, Winter, >> Winters, eta) family came from Vesele, Bohemia, Czech and several >> surrounding villages in 1778. But my father - my grandfather (the Neckar >> lineage ), I am not sure. All that I know is John Neckar (my gr-gr-father) >> came through New York S tate to Wisconsin around 1854. I sometimes wonder >> if the Neckar were actually of German decent, and not Slavic. >> >> >> >> Dan Nechkash >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> From: "Aida Kraus" <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 4:49:48 PM >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] 1929/30 Czech Census! >> >> Czech and German are two entirely different languages. Czech's base roots >> are Slavic and similar to Polish and Russian. German has its base in >> Germanic language roots, like Austrian, Swiss, and is related to all >> Scandinavian languages and German dialects. If your ancestral family >> residing in Bohemia spoke both languages, they were bilingual. You spoke >> either German or Czech in Bohemia. The Czechs referred to their home >> language as "Bohemian" and the Germans from Bohemia referred to their home >> dialect "Bohemian" when they were away from home and lived in America. So >> I hope that this will make you >> aware that your family spoke two entirely different language, and now you >> have to find written records in either language to identify their >> ethnicity. >> Aida >> >> ----------------------------------------------- >> >> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 1:34 PM, <nechkash@comcast.net> wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > Hello Aida, >> > >> > >> > >> > My father was born as a second-generation US citizen in Wisconsin, but >> > didn't speak English until he went to grade school (about 1931). The >> > >> > family and all the local's spoken only the native tongue (Bohemian). He >> > and my Aunt Mary always claimed they also understand German because >> > >> > it was similar enough to the Bohemian language? Is this the case? >> > Thanks, >> > >> > >> > >> > Daniel Nechkash >> > >> >> >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ To contact the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN list administrator, send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-admin@rootsweb.com. To post a message to the GERMAN-BOHEMIAN mailing list, send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN@rootsweb.com. __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Digest, Vol 7, Issue 15 **********************************************

Helen, A great many German speakers from the Bohemian Forest area migrated to Bukovina which parts of is now Romania. If you go to www.bukovinasociety.org you will find answers to you questions. Bob On Jan 18, 2012, at 10:33 AM, HELEN M WHITE wrote: > My Family ( Grandparents)are ;. Catholic- Farmers & woodcutters of > Bohemian forest. > Where exactly I do not know. It is said they spoke "Low German" > Does this give me a lead of how to find them in Bohemia before they > emigrated to > Paltinossa, Suceava dist.of Austrian Empire ...now Romania, abt 1817 > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> From Aida: I am highlighting some paragraphs of interest to us from the >> article submitted by Mr. Krupnak which highlights our Bohemian-German >> dialects spoken in Western Bohemia: >> Iink: >> >> http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/reworking-of-german-language-classification-part-3-high-german/ >> >> *Oberpfälz North >> Bavarian< >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~janblotz/arnoldresearch3.htm >>> >> * (Oberpfälzerisch or Oberpfälzisch) is a language spoken in southeastern >> Germany in central eastern and northeastern Bavaria from Regensburg, >> Kelheim and the Bavarian Forest north along the Naab River to the >> Fichtelgebirge (Fir Mountains) and in the Northern Bohemian Forest along >> the border with Czechoslovakia. It is also spoken up by Neumarkt. >> >> According to residents (Kirmaier 2009), this is a separate language, not >> intelligible with other German Bavarian lects. Dialects of this language >> include *Danube Oberpfälzisch *, which, though different, is fully >> intelligible with the Oberpfälzisch spoken in Neumarkt. This is the >> Oberpfälzisch spoken along the Danube around the towns of Kelheim and >> Regensburg. >> >> *Bohemian German*< >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans_in_the_Czech_Republic >>> (Boehmerwaelderischish< >> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2007-05/1178379647 >>> ) >> is a High German language spoken in Czechoslovakia, Germany and the US. It >> looks like both< >> http://books.google.com/books?id=8uxfTF4Lm-kC&pg=PA598&lpg=PA598&dq=%22bohemian+german%22+dialect&source=bl&ots=4nnlM3ZukV&sig=yBfEQB1ndQSgikiFgVpWCo8C7_E&hl=en&ei=5mK-SYfdFJmQsQP5uPBD&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result#PPA597,M1 >>> North >> and Central Bavarian. >> >> *Egerland Bohemian >> German*< >> http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_March_2000.pdf >>> (Egerlaenderisch) >> is spoken in Bischofteinitz, Mies, Tachau and Taus >> Counties in the Czech Republic in Western Bohemia and in and around New >> Ulm, Minnesota, where there are still speakers ranging from 52-98 years >> old. In the Czech Republic, each village had a separate dialect, but all >> dialects are intelligible. This appears to be a separate >> language< >> http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2006-05/1147996153 >>> from >> Oberpfalz Northern Bavarian. >> >> This seems to be the same language as * Sechsämterland * spoken across the >> border. The Sechsämterland dialect is spoken in the area around Selb, >> Wunsiedel, Hohenberg and Thierstein in the far northeast of Bavaria near >> the border with Czechoslovakia and Lower Saxony. >> >> Dialectal diversity is very high in this area, and every village has its >> own dialect. >> >> *Lauterbach* is a divergent dialect spoken east of Tirschenreuth on the >> Czech border. *Tiss* is a >> divergent< >> http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_March_2003.pdf >>> subdialect >> of Egerland. >> *Sangerberg* is a divergent Egerlaenderisch dialect spoken in Prameny, >> Czechoslovakia. *Cheb (note from Aida: I never heard of a dialect named >> "Cheb", as "Cheb" is the Czech translation for the city of Eger!) * is >> spoken in the large German city of the same name. *Tachauer* is a dialect >> that formed the >> basis<http://www.members.shaw.ca/brianmerz/Genealogy/folklore.htm>for >> the >> * Machliniec* dialect spoken formerly spoken by the Carpathian Germans in >> their language island in the Machliniec area of the Ukraine. They left >> during WW2. >> >> *German Central Bavarian* is a group of Bavarian lects that are spoken in >> Germany. This group includes Lower Bavarian, Upper Bavarian and *Lechrain >> Bavarian* (Lechrainisch). Lechrain Bavarian is spoken in Western Bavaria >> and is transitional to Swabian. Map of the Lechrain >> region<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lechrain.svg>. >> Lechrain is very >> different< >> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BAVARIAN-ANCESTORS/2001-10/1003966871 >>> from >> the rest of Bavarian, but intelligibility data is lacking. >> >> Lower Bavarian includes the Bohemian Forest language and many dialects. >> >> Upper Bavarian includes the Starnberg, Highland and Meisbach languages and >> many dialects. >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > -- > *hwhitemc* > > "Live simply; Care deeply; Love generously;" and most importantly, "Speak > kindly." ...by Sam @ MTPR > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Elaine, it would help to keep this probability in mind, and if they went to Slovakia, you most likely have to figure on 3 languages: Slovakian, Hungarian and German. You detect a name that is derived from a profession, like Taylor, Cooper, Smith, etc. you can use the Google translator to find the equivalent in another language. But let me tell you beforehand, that this is rare indeed, they most likely used phonetics of the original name in their spelling. I have such a case in my family: DuMont. It is spelled Dimong, Demon, Damon, and Dimmon. To "sort it out" and actually find YOUR ancestor, you have to go by location, date and parentage, mate, children! As a rule of thumb, and what I encountered in my own research, I found that there was less "translation" of a name but phonetic aberrations. However, before 1800 it might be possible, and just as emigrants from other countries anglizised their names upon receiving US Citizenship. Be alert to all possibilities, because these findings are sometimes astounding and I have gone through the same church registers several times before I made the connection. So pay attention to what you read and speak the names out loud! Aida On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 11:54 AM, <polloe@earthlink.net> wrote: > Aida, and All, > > Ya seem to raise an interesting issue below. If the Surname sometimes > changed from Czech to German or German to Czech depending on the area a > family lived in or moved to, then IF we have a "Brickwall", maybe it would > be good to look for the Surname as translated into the other language. > > Would the above be a good idea? > > How about with given names? Were they likely to change between languages > as well? I'm tracing a Karola. His marriage record in Trnava (now Slovakia) > (was Hungary) not far from the Czech border, lists his place of birth as > Brno. I have not found his Birth record from Brno CZ as yet. Is it likely I > will find variations of the Given Name as well? > > Thanks in advance, > > Elaine > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > >Sent: Jan 16, 2012 7:20 PM > >To: GBHS <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > >Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Distinction of Czech versus German female > surnames > > > >Under the Austrian Hungarian Empire most church records were written in > the > >language of its ethnic population after the 19th century. Throughout the > >Austrian Hungarian Empire there were more than 9 languages spoken (German, > >Hungarian, Slovakian, Czech, Polish, Ukrainian, Croatian, Serbian and > >Romanian and others). Actually, the Austrian Hungarian Empire was a > >fore-runner of what we have today in Europe - a "United Europe". Austria > >Hungary was very international and colorful, but with a dominant German or > >Hungarian administration for their regions. Regional administration used > >the language of their population. During the Empire years there were > > either predominantly German or Czech Cities and villages and many other > >ethnic population centers. > > When the Latin language of Catholic church registers was replaced by > >the language of the region, it is there that you will be able to tell the > >ethnicity of your ancestry by looking at the language used in these church > >records. Pay attention to your find and see if they were written either > in > >Czech or German and you will know your families ethnicity. Surnames do > >hardly pinpoint ethnicity, because intermarriage-names show as many to be > >translated to German as they were translated to Czech. For instance the > >German name Schmied (a smith) might be translated to the Czech > >equivalent: Kovář > >when they moved into a predominantly Czech region; or the Czech family > by > >the name by Kovar might have acquired the German name of Schmied by moving > >to a predominantly German region.; so you really cannot tell just by > >surnames what ethnicity they might have had. Here is an example: You can > >be sure that the record shows in the Czech language if the female ending > > "ova" is at the end of the surname. Here is an example: > >The family surname "Schmied" would be listed as "Schmiedova or Smidova" > >found in a Czech register for a female. German records would never show > >the ending "ova" for a female, and the text would be German and the female > >name listed as Schmied or even Smid without the "ova" ending. However, in > >older records (end of 1700 and beginning of 1800) you might find the > ending > >"in" attached to a German surname for a German female, hence, "Schmiedin." > > So remember: "ova" = Czech, no ending or "in" ending = German. This is > >your key to ethnic distinction. > > Aida > > > > > >On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 3:17 PM, <nechkash@comcast.net> wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> I am quite sure of my father - my grandmother (the Wintra, Winter, > >> Winters, eta) family came from Vesele, Bohemia, Czech and several > >> surrounding villages in 1778. But my father - my grandfather (the > Neckar > >> lineage ), I am not sure. All that I know is John Neckar (my > gr-gr-father) > >> came through New York S tate to Wisconsin around 1854. I sometimes > wonder > >> if the Neckar were actually of German decent, and not Slavic. > >> > >> > >> > >> Dan Nechkash > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> > >> > >> From: "Aida Kraus" <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > >> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 4:49:48 PM > >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] 1929/30 Czech Census! > >> > >> Czech and German are two entirely different languages. Czech's base > roots > >> are Slavic and similar to Polish and Russian. German has its base in > >> Germanic language roots, like Austrian, Swiss, and is related to all > >> Scandinavian languages and German dialects. If your ancestral family > >> residing in Bohemia spoke both languages, they were bilingual. You > spoke > >> either German or Czech in Bohemia. The Czechs referred to their home > >> language as "Bohemian" and the Germans from Bohemia referred to their > home > >> dialect "Bohemian" when they were away from home and lived in America. > So > >> I hope that this will make you > >> aware that your family spoke two entirely different language, and now > you > >> have to find written records in either language to identify their > >> ethnicity. > >> Aida > >> > >> ----------------------------------------------- > >> > >> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 1:34 PM, <nechkash@comcast.net> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > Hello Aida, > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > My father was born as a second-generation US citizen in Wisconsin, but > >> > didn't speak English until he went to grade school (about 1931). The > >> > > >> > family and all the local's spoken only the native tongue (Bohemian). > He > >> > and my Aunt Mary always claimed they also understand German because > >> > > >> > it was similar enough to the Bohemian language? Is this the case? > >> > Thanks, > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Daniel Nechkash > >> > > >> > >> > >German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Helen, the best way to find your family's origin is to go to the LDS Family Research Center in your area and look at the microfilms available (there are several rolls in alphabetical order of surnames) and you ca find them under the heading "Andsiedlerakten". This is a record of movement within the Austrian Hungarian Empire. If they went from Bohemia (part of the Empire) to Romania (which then was also part of the Empire) or from Bohemia to Galicia, for instance, their names should be recorded in that file. You could compare it to a move from one State of the US to another. There are records of these moves archived at the LDS. Good luck! Aida -------------------------------------- On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 8:33 AM, HELEN M WHITE <hwhitemc8309@gmail.com>wrote: > My Family ( Grandparents)are ;. Catholic- Farmers & woodcutters of > Bohemian forest. > Where exactly I do not know. It is said they spoke "Low German" > Does this give me a lead of how to find them in Bohemia before they > emigrated to > Paltinossa, Suceava dist.of Austrian Empire ...now Romania, abt 1817 > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > >From Aida: I am highlighting some paragraphs of interest to us from > the > > article submitted by Mr. Krupnak which highlights our Bohemian-German > > dialects spoken in Western Bohemia: > > Iink: > > > > > http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/reworking-of-german-language-classification-part-3-high-german/ > > > > *Oberpfälz North > > Bavarian< > > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~janblotz/arnoldresearch3.htm > > > > > * (Oberpfälzerisch or Oberpfälzisch) is a language spoken in southeastern > > Germany in central eastern and northeastern Bavaria from Regensburg, > > Kelheim and the Bavarian Forest north along the Naab River to the > > Fichtelgebirge (Fir Mountains) and in the Northern Bohemian Forest along > > the border with Czechoslovakia. It is also spoken up by Neumarkt. > > > > According to residents (Kirmaier 2009), this is a separate language, not > > intelligible with other German Bavarian lects. Dialects of this language > > include *Danube Oberpfälzisch *, which, though different, is fully > > intelligible with the Oberpfälzisch spoken in Neumarkt. This is the > > Oberpfälzisch spoken along the Danube around the towns of Kelheim and > > Regensburg. > > > > *Bohemian German*< > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans_in_the_Czech_Republic > > >(Boehmerwaelderischish< > > > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2007-05/1178379647 > > >) > > is a High German language spoken in Czechoslovakia, Germany and the US. > It > > looks like both< > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=8uxfTF4Lm-kC&pg=PA598&lpg=PA598&dq=%22bohemian+german%22+dialect&source=bl&ots=4nnlM3ZukV&sig=yBfEQB1ndQSgikiFgVpWCo8C7_E&hl=en&ei=5mK-SYfdFJmQsQP5uPBD&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result#PPA597,M1 > > >North > > and Central Bavarian. > > > > *Egerland Bohemian > > German*< > > > http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_March_2000.pdf > > >(Egerlaenderisch) > > is spoken in Bischofteinitz, Mies, Tachau and Taus > > Counties in the Czech Republic in Western Bohemia and in and around New > > Ulm, Minnesota, where there are still speakers ranging from 52-98 years > > old. In the Czech Republic, each village had a separate dialect, but all > > dialects are intelligible. This appears to be a separate > > language< > > > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2006-05/1147996153 > > >from > > Oberpfalz Northern Bavarian. > > > > This seems to be the same language as * Sechsämterland * spoken across > the > > border. The Sechsämterland dialect is spoken in the area around Selb, > > Wunsiedel, Hohenberg and Thierstein in the far northeast of Bavaria near > > the border with Czechoslovakia and Lower Saxony. > > > > Dialectal diversity is very high in this area, and every village has its > > own dialect. > > > > *Lauterbach* is a divergent dialect spoken east of Tirschenreuth on the > > Czech border. *Tiss* is a > > divergent< > > > http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_March_2003.pdf > > >subdialect > > of Egerland. > > *Sangerberg* is a divergent Egerlaenderisch dialect spoken in Prameny, > > Czechoslovakia. *Cheb (note from Aida: I never heard of a dialect > named > > "Cheb", as "Cheb" is the Czech translation for the city of Eger!) * is > > spoken in the large German city of the same name. *Tachauer* is a dialect > > that formed the > > basis<http://www.members.shaw.ca/brianmerz/Genealogy/folklore.htm>for > > the > > * Machliniec* dialect spoken formerly spoken by the Carpathian Germans in > > their language island in the Machliniec area of the Ukraine. They left > > during WW2. > > > > *German Central Bavarian* is a group of Bavarian lects that are spoken in > > Germany. This group includes Lower Bavarian, Upper Bavarian and *Lechrain > > Bavarian* (Lechrainisch). Lechrain Bavarian is spoken in Western Bavaria > > and is transitional to Swabian. Map of the Lechrain > > region<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lechrain.svg>. > > Lechrain is very > > different< > > > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BAVARIAN-ANCESTORS/2001-10/1003966871 > > >from > > the rest of Bavarian, but intelligibility data is lacking. > > > > Lower Bavarian includes the Bohemian Forest language and many dialects. > > > > Upper Bavarian includes the Starnberg, Highland and Meisbach languages > and > > many dialects. > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > -- > *hwhitemc* > > "Live simply; Care deeply; Love generously;" and most importantly, "Speak > kindly." ...by Sam @ MTPR > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

My Family ( Grandparents)are ;. Catholic- Farmers & woodcutters of Bohemian forest. Where exactly I do not know. It is said they spoke "Low German" Does this give me a lead of how to find them in Bohemia before they emigrated to Paltinossa, Suceava dist.of Austrian Empire ...now Romania, abt 1817 On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Aida Kraus <birchbaylady@gmail.com> wrote: > >From Aida: I am highlighting some paragraphs of interest to us from the > article submitted by Mr. Krupnak which highlights our Bohemian-German > dialects spoken in Western Bohemia: > Iink: > > http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/reworking-of-german-language-classification-part-3-high-german/ > > *Oberpfälz North > Bavarian< > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~janblotz/arnoldresearch3.htm > > > * (Oberpfälzerisch or Oberpfälzisch) is a language spoken in southeastern > Germany in central eastern and northeastern Bavaria from Regensburg, > Kelheim and the Bavarian Forest north along the Naab River to the > Fichtelgebirge (Fir Mountains) and in the Northern Bohemian Forest along > the border with Czechoslovakia. It is also spoken up by Neumarkt. > > According to residents (Kirmaier 2009), this is a separate language, not > intelligible with other German Bavarian lects. Dialects of this language > include *Danube Oberpfälzisch *, which, though different, is fully > intelligible with the Oberpfälzisch spoken in Neumarkt. This is the > Oberpfälzisch spoken along the Danube around the towns of Kelheim and > Regensburg. > > *Bohemian German*< > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans_in_the_Czech_Republic > >(Boehmerwaelderischish< > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2007-05/1178379647 > >) > is a High German language spoken in Czechoslovakia, Germany and the US. It > looks like both< > http://books.google.com/books?id=8uxfTF4Lm-kC&pg=PA598&lpg=PA598&dq=%22bohemian+german%22+dialect&source=bl&ots=4nnlM3ZukV&sig=yBfEQB1ndQSgikiFgVpWCo8C7_E&hl=en&ei=5mK-SYfdFJmQsQP5uPBD&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result#PPA597,M1 > >North > and Central Bavarian. > > *Egerland Bohemian > German*< > http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_March_2000.pdf > >(Egerlaenderisch) > is spoken in Bischofteinitz, Mies, Tachau and Taus > Counties in the Czech Republic in Western Bohemia and in and around New > Ulm, Minnesota, where there are still speakers ranging from 52-98 years > old. In the Czech Republic, each village had a separate dialect, but all > dialects are intelligible. This appears to be a separate > language< > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2006-05/1147996153 > >from > Oberpfalz Northern Bavarian. > > This seems to be the same language as * Sechsämterland * spoken across the > border. The Sechsämterland dialect is spoken in the area around Selb, > Wunsiedel, Hohenberg and Thierstein in the far northeast of Bavaria near > the border with Czechoslovakia and Lower Saxony. > > Dialectal diversity is very high in this area, and every village has its > own dialect. > > *Lauterbach* is a divergent dialect spoken east of Tirschenreuth on the > Czech border. *Tiss* is a > divergent< > http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_March_2003.pdf > >subdialect > of Egerland. > *Sangerberg* is a divergent Egerlaenderisch dialect spoken in Prameny, > Czechoslovakia. *Cheb (note from Aida: I never heard of a dialect named > "Cheb", as "Cheb" is the Czech translation for the city of Eger!) * is > spoken in the large German city of the same name. *Tachauer* is a dialect > that formed the > basis<http://www.members.shaw.ca/brianmerz/Genealogy/folklore.htm>for > the > * Machliniec* dialect spoken formerly spoken by the Carpathian Germans in > their language island in the Machliniec area of the Ukraine. They left > during WW2. > > *German Central Bavarian* is a group of Bavarian lects that are spoken in > Germany. This group includes Lower Bavarian, Upper Bavarian and *Lechrain > Bavarian* (Lechrainisch). Lechrain Bavarian is spoken in Western Bavaria > and is transitional to Swabian. Map of the Lechrain > region<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lechrain.svg>. > Lechrain is very > different< > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BAVARIAN-ANCESTORS/2001-10/1003966871 > >from > the rest of Bavarian, but intelligibility data is lacking. > > Lower Bavarian includes the Bohemian Forest language and many dialects. > > Upper Bavarian includes the Starnberg, Highland and Meisbach languages and > many dialects. > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- *hwhitemc* "Live simply; Care deeply; Love generously;" and most importantly, "Speak kindly." ...by Sam @ MTPR

>From Aida: I am highlighting some paragraphs of interest to us from the article submitted by Mr. Krupnak which highlights our Bohemian-German dialects spoken in Western Bohemia: Iink: http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/reworking-of-german-language-classification-part-3-high-german/ *Oberpfälz North Bavarian<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~janblotz/arnoldresearch3.htm> * (Oberpfälzerisch or Oberpfälzisch) is a language spoken in southeastern Germany in central eastern and northeastern Bavaria from Regensburg, Kelheim and the Bavarian Forest north along the Naab River to the Fichtelgebirge (Fir Mountains) and in the Northern Bohemian Forest along the border with Czechoslovakia. It is also spoken up by Neumarkt. According to residents (Kirmaier 2009), this is a separate language, not intelligible with other German Bavarian lects. Dialects of this language include *Danube Oberpfälzisch *, which, though different, is fully intelligible with the Oberpfälzisch spoken in Neumarkt. This is the Oberpfälzisch spoken along the Danube around the towns of Kelheim and Regensburg. *Bohemian German*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans_in_the_Czech_Republic>(Boehmerwaelderischish<http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2007-05/1178379647>) is a High German language spoken in Czechoslovakia, Germany and the US. It looks like both<http://books.google.com/books?id=8uxfTF4Lm-kC&pg=PA598&lpg=PA598&dq=%22bohemian+german%22+dialect&source=bl&ots=4nnlM3ZukV&sig=yBfEQB1ndQSgikiFgVpWCo8C7_E&hl=en&ei=5mK-SYfdFJmQsQP5uPBD&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result#PPA597,M1>North and Central Bavarian. *Egerland Bohemian German*<http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_March_2000.pdf>(Egerlaenderisch) is spoken in Bischofteinitz, Mies, Tachau and Taus Counties in the Czech Republic in Western Bohemia and in and around New Ulm, Minnesota, where there are still speakers ranging from 52-98 years old. In the Czech Republic, each village had a separate dialect, but all dialects are intelligible. This appears to be a separate language<http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2006-05/1147996153>from Oberpfalz Northern Bavarian. This seems to be the same language as * Sechsämterland * spoken across the border. The Sechsämterland dialect is spoken in the area around Selb, Wunsiedel, Hohenberg and Thierstein in the far northeast of Bavaria near the border with Czechoslovakia and Lower Saxony. Dialectal diversity is very high in this area, and every village has its own dialect. *Lauterbach* is a divergent dialect spoken east of Tirschenreuth on the Czech border. *Tiss* is a divergent<http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/newsletter/Heimatbrief_March_2003.pdf>subdialect of Egerland. *Sangerberg* is a divergent Egerlaenderisch dialect spoken in Prameny, Czechoslovakia. *Cheb (note from Aida: I never heard of a dialect named "Cheb", as "Cheb" is the Czech translation for the city of Eger!) * is spoken in the large German city of the same name. *Tachauer* is a dialect that formed the basis<http://www.members.shaw.ca/brianmerz/Genealogy/folklore.htm>for the * Machliniec* dialect spoken formerly spoken by the Carpathian Germans in their language island in the Machliniec area of the Ukraine. They left during WW2. *German Central Bavarian* is a group of Bavarian lects that are spoken in Germany. This group includes Lower Bavarian, Upper Bavarian and *Lechrain Bavarian* (Lechrainisch). Lechrain Bavarian is spoken in Western Bavaria and is transitional to Swabian. Map of the Lechrain region<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lechrain.svg>. Lechrain is very different<http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BAVARIAN-ANCESTORS/2001-10/1003966871>from the rest of Bavarian, but intelligibility data is lacking. Lower Bavarian includes the Bohemian Forest language and many dialects. Upper Bavarian includes the Starnberg, Highland and Meisbach languages and many dialects.

I am referring to this quote: *Origin of term Bohemian:* *The name "Bohemia" derives from the Latin term for the Celtic tribe inhabiting that area, the Boii, who were called Boiohaemum in the early Middle Ages.* My comment: In 9 BC, Marbod, the Marcoman who was born in Moravia was educated in Rome and came back to his country as administrator and formed the first Germanic Realm with the Germanic Tribes of the Marcomanni and Quadi. He was ousted by Arminius, or Hermann as we know him. When the Romans tried to cross the Rhine, they were defeated by Germanic tribes. We have more writing by Marcus Aurelius who died fighting the Germans in 121-180 AD. And there are several translations from Tacitus (55-120AD) when he wrote his "Germania" and when the Germanic fortifications on the Rhine and Danube held against the invading Romans, while the British Isles were already 400 years under Roman control. Because the Germanic tribes did not succumb to Rome, the history written by Tacitus is not complimentary, of course, because they were such a hard nut to crack. We see that 410 Alaric and his Visigoth entered Rome (*Alaric I* ( Gothic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_language>: Alareiks; 370 - 410) was the King <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_Kingship> of the Visigoths <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigoths> from 395–410. Alaric is most famous for his sack of Rome<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Rome_(410)>in 410, which marked a decisiveevent in the decline of the Roman Empire<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_the_Roman_Empire>.) But here we two sides of the story, because Alaric supposedly did NOT sack Rome because Pope Leo paid him tribute. After them Attila the Hun plundered Italy in 453 AD. There was also Geiseric and his Vandals who reached the Roman's North African Coast, so the invasion of the Germanic tribes on Rome were firmly under way. If the Slavic people, arriving as slaves of the Awars in 400 to 500 AD in the Western area, there certainly is no recording of them by the Romans, simply because the Romans never encountered their presence in these lands. Consequently, the Slavic people, or Czechs, arrived long after the Roman Empire had already declined. So does this mean that Romans never encountered the Slavic people's presence in the land of the Marcomanni which seems to have been in the general area of Austria , Bavaria, Moravia and Bohemia? Aida --------------------------------------------------- On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Laurence Krupnak * * <LKrupnak@verizon.net> wrote: > > / > > > I (Deborah Bibo of the Brigham Young University Linquistics > Department) have compiled a brief history of the Czech peoples to paint > a clearer picture of their language progression: > > > http://linguistics.byu.edu/classes/ling450ch/reports/czech.html > > > > *********** > > Origin of term Bohemian: > > The name "Bohemia" derives from the Latin term for the Celtic tribe > inhabiting that area, the Boii, who were called Boiohaemum in the early > Middle Ages.[citation needed] The word "Bohemian" was never used by the > local Czech (Slavic) population.[citation needed] In Czech, the region > since the early Middle Ages has been called only Cechy ("Czech") or > Království ceské ("Czech Kingdom"), and its mainly Czech-speaking > inhabitants were called Cechové (in modern Czech Cesi).[citation needed] > > In most other European vernaculars and in Latin (as Bohemi), the word > "Bohemian" or a derivate was used. If the Czech ethnic origin was to be > stressed, combinations like "Bohemian of Bohemian language"(Cech ceského > jazyka), "a real Bohemian" (pravý Cech) etc. were used.[citation needed] > > It was not until the 19th century that other European languages began to > use the word "Czechs" (in English - Tschechen in German, Tchèques in > French) in a deliberate (and successful) attempt to distinguish between > Bohemian Slavs and other inhabitants of Bohemia (mostly Germans). > Currently, the word "Bohemians" is sometimes used when speaking about > persons from Bohemia of non-Czech or mixed ethnic origin, especially > before the year 1918, when the Kingdom of Bohemia ceased to exist; also > when there is need to distinguish between inhabitants of the western > part (Bohemia proper) of Czechia, and the eastern (Moravia) or the > north-eastern part (Silesia). > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian > > > _________ > > Lavrentiy > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net> > To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 6:18 PM > Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] 1929/30 Czech Census! > > > Here's more: > > The word "Bohemian" was used to denote the Czech people as well as the > Czech language before the word "Czech" became prevalent in English. > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian > > > Bohemian German ( Boehmerwaelderischish) is a High German language > spoken in Czechoslovakia, Germany and the US. It looks like both North > and Central Bavarian. > > Starting in the 1200's, Germans began moving into the Sudetenland, often > invited by Bohemian kings. Over the centuries, they pushed out the > Czechs and Slavs living in the area and took it over for farming. > Although intelligibility data for Bohemian German is lacking, it is > often considered to be a full language of its own, so we will treat it > as one in this analysis. > > Actually, since it ranges from East Middle German to Bavarian High > German, Bohemian German seems to be a wastebasket designation for the > varying lects spoken in the Sudetenland. > > On the border of Silesia, it resembled Silesian. On the border of the > Erzgebirge, it looked like Erzgebirgisch. In the far northeast, where > the Riesengebirge separated Bohemia from Silesia, in the Hultschiner > Laendle, the people had a very divergent lect of their own. > > To the south of the city of Mies, along the Bohemian Mountains, it > looked like Niederbayerisch. A dialect called Böhmish is spoken spoken > in the Böhmerwald or Bohemian Forest. In the south, extending all the > way towards Moravia, it looked very much like the Central Bavarian > spoken in Austria. Sorting all of this out and determining what was a > dialect and what was a separate language is going to be difficult. > Schönhengst is a dialect of this language spoken in Moravia. > > Egerland Bohemian German (Egerlaenderisch) is spoken in Bischofteinitz, > Mies, Tachau and Taus Counties in the Czech Republic in Western Bohemia > and in and around New Ulm, Minnesota, where there are still speakers > ranging from 52-98 years old. In the Czech Republic, each village had a > separate dialect, but all dialects are intelligible. This appears to be > a separate language from Oberpfalz Northern Bavarian. > > This seems to be the same language as Sechsämterland spoken across the > border. The Sechsämterland dialect is spoken in the area around Selb, > Wunsiedel, Hohenberg and Thierstein in the far northeast of Bavaria near > the border with Czechoslovakia and Lower Saxony. > > Dialectal diversity is very high in this area, and every village has its > own dialect. > > Lauterbach is a divergent dialect spoken east of Tirschenreuth on the > Czech border. Tiss is a divergent subdialect of Egerland. Sangerberg is > a divergent Egerlaenderisch dialect spoken in Prameny, Czechoslovakia. > Cheb is spoken in the large German city of the same name. Tachauer is a > dialect that formed the basis for the Machliniec dialect spoken formerly > spoken by the Carpathian Germans in their language island in the > Machliniec area of the Ukraine. They left during WW2. > > German Central Bavarian is a group of Bavarian lects that are spoken in > Germany. This group includes Lower Bavarian, Upper Bavarian and Lechrain > Bavarian (Lechrainisch). Lechrain Bavarian is spoken in Western Bavaria > and is transitional to Swabian. Map of the Lechrain region. Lechrain is > very different from the rest of Bavarian, but intelligibility data is > lacking. > > Lower Bavarian includes the Bohemian Forest language and many dialects. > > Upper Bavarian includes the Starnberg, Highland and Meisbach languages > and many dialects. > > > > > http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/reworking-of-german-language-classification-part-3-high-german/ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aida Kraus" <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 5:49 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] 1929/30 Czech Census! > > > > Czech and German are two entirely different languages. Czech's base > > roots > > are Slavic and similar to Polish and Russian. German has its base in > > Germanic language roots, like Austrian, Swiss, and is related to all > > Scandinavian languages and German dialects. If your ancestral family > > residing in Bohemia spoke both languages, they were bilingual. You > > spoke > > either German or Czech in Bohemia. The Czechs referred to their home > > language as "Bohemian" and the Germans from Bohemia referred to their > > home > > dialect "Bohemian" when they were away from home and lived in America. > > So > > I hope that this will make you > > aware that your family spoke two entirely different language, and now > > you > > have to find written records in either language to identify their > > ethnicity. > > Aida > > > > ----------------------------------------------- > > > > On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 1:34 PM, <nechkash@comcast.net> wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> Hello Aida, > >> > >> > >> > >> My father was born as a second-generation US citizen in Wisconsin, > >> but > >> didn't speak English until he went to grade school (about 1931). The > >> > >> family and all the local's spoken only the native tongue (Bohemian). > >> He > >> and my Aunt Mary always claimed they also understand German because > >> > >> it was similar enough to the Bohemian language? Is this the case? > >> Thanks, > >> > >> > >> > >> Daniel Nechkash > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> From: "Aida Kraus" <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > >> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > >> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 3:50:38 PM > >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] 1929/30 Czech Census! > >> > >> I do not know what part the Census played in the expulsion except > >> that the > >> individual resident had to decide on his ethnic preference. > >> Generally, you > >> were a Czech when you spoke the Czech language at home, and > >> consequently > >> you > >> were German if you spoke German. But that in itself is totally false, > >> because families were blended there since the early times when the > >> area was > >> settled by tribes and later when civilization made an impact, like > >> during > >> the reign of Karl IV (1316-1378) who was the Bohemian King of mixed > >> marriage > >> himself. His father was a Luxemburger, his mother Elizabeth of > >> Bohemia is > >> claimed to be Czech, but her mother was Judith of Habsburg. Their > >> home > >> language was German and French. Their son Karl IV's first wife was > >> the > >> daughter of the French King and could not speak Czech, so their > >> family > >> spoke > >> German at home, his next two wives were Germans and his last wife was > >> from > >> Poland. The claim to Slavic is a strong as the claim to German and > >> separating the two had no advantage to either side. So..... as these > >> families were intermingled, so was the population and one simply > >> spoke the > >> language of the majority of the local population. You will find > >> totally > >> German villages within Czech territory, you will find Czechs living > >> in > >> German territories and so they spoke whatever language was spoken > >> there and > >> this has NOTHING whatsoever to do with their ethnic background. The > >> only > >> place where there was a clear distinction between Czech and German > >> was in > >> the Egerland, because that particular area belonged historically to > >> Bavaria > >> before it was given as a loan-security to the Bohemian crown. The > >> Wittelsbacher needed money to consolidate their Bavarian Kingdom and > >> gave > >> up > >> the Egerland for money they desperately needed to keep their other > >> borders > >> protected. In the Egerland, therefore, they spoke an Upper Frankish, > >> and > >> this is very old dialect an quite distinct from the other German > >> patios > >> spoken elsewhere. This upper Frankish dialect is still spoken in > >> Bayreuth, > >> Marktredwitz etc. along the North Western border of the Czech > >> Republic. > >> That language has nothing to do with the Saxon dialect which is > >> spoken > >> along the northern mountain range called Kruzne Hory now, and was > >> called > >> "Erzgebirge" throughout history. It is a fact that the Egerland was > >> never > >> rescued by Bavaria in repaying that loan and so it never got out of > >> hock; > >> but this in itself was never perceived as necessary, because the > >> King of > >> Bohemia was - in fact - the Roman Kaiser of the German Nations which > >> included all the Germanic lands, and on top of this, the capital of > >> the > >> Egerland, namely the town of Eger (now Cheb) was a German Reichsstadt > >> like > >> Nuremberg, with the same legal rights. The division between Czech > >> and > >> German was never an issue until other nations had an interest to sow > >> the > >> seeds of discontent for their own political profits. The Slavic > >> movement > >> in > >> the Habsburg empire did not make an impact until 1866 with the > >> political > >> movement of Panslavism. Before that, all ethnic groups, i.e. > >> Austrians, > >> Hungarians, Romanians, part of the Ukraine, Serbs. Croats, Slovaks, > >> Galician > >> Poles, Moravians, Bohemians and Tyrolians all came to America under > >> an > >> Austrian passport. And at times it also included Belgium, Luxemburg, > >> Alsace > >> and Lorraine. They all belonged to the same motherland who happened > >> to have > >> German as their administrative language, because their capital was > >> Vienna. > >> The international language was French. So, you can see that their > >> modern > >> aim of a United Europe, is about as close to what the Austrian > >> Hungarian > >> Monarchy was to begin with. > >> The way I can explain it and to paint a picture of what it was > >> like to > >> live in Austria Hungary just compare it to Canada. There you have > >> English > >> speaking, French speaking and many native Nations speaking their > >> various > >> dialects as well as Esquimos ...... and they also live in separate > >> areas, > >> just as it was in Austria Hungary. So now you know how it was in > >> Austria > >> Hungary for your ancestors, and that it was the AREA where you lived > >> that > >> guided the language spoken there. The time has finally come that we > >> do > >> away > >> with this "ethnic" thing. In all truth it is totally meaningless. > >> We are > >> people who have happily melted here on American soil, so where is > >> this > >> difference as a people??? > >> I will tell you where, in nothing but the nostalgia of an old > >> song in > >> a > >> familiar language which you have heard at your mother's breast. And > >> that > >> is worth sharing! > >> Aida > >> > >> ------------------------------------------- > >> > >> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Biddy Orr <biddyt4@xtra.co.nz> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > Aida - I would be grateful if you could provide an answer to this > >> question, > >> > please? > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > What part did the 1929/30 Census play in the expulsion of the > >> > Germans > >> from > >> > Czechoslovakia after World War 11. I understand it was to do with > >> > 'language' > >> > - the 'mother' tongue? > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > > >> > Biddy Orr > >> > > >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> > ------------------------------- > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> > without > >> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

/ I (Deborah Bibo of the Brigham Young University Linquistics Department) have compiled a brief history of the Czech peoples to paint a clearer picture of their language progression: http://linguistics.byu.edu/classes/ling450ch/reports/czech.html *********** Origin of term Bohemian: The name "Bohemia" derives from the Latin term for the Celtic tribe inhabiting that area, the Boii, who were called Boiohaemum in the early Middle Ages.[citation needed] The word "Bohemian" was never used by the local Czech (Slavic) population.[citation needed] In Czech, the region since the early Middle Ages has been called only Cechy ("Czech") or Království ceské ("Czech Kingdom"), and its mainly Czech-speaking inhabitants were called Cechové (in modern Czech Cesi).[citation needed] In most other European vernaculars and in Latin (as Bohemi), the word "Bohemian" or a derivate was used. If the Czech ethnic origin was to be stressed, combinations like "Bohemian of Bohemian language"(Cech ceského jazyka), "a real Bohemian" (pravý Cech) etc. were used.[citation needed] It was not until the 19th century that other European languages began to use the word "Czechs" (in English - Tschechen in German, Tchèques in French) in a deliberate (and successful) attempt to distinguish between Bohemian Slavs and other inhabitants of Bohemia (mostly Germans). Currently, the word "Bohemians" is sometimes used when speaking about persons from Bohemia of non-Czech or mixed ethnic origin, especially before the year 1918, when the Kingdom of Bohemia ceased to exist; also when there is need to distinguish between inhabitants of the western part (Bohemia proper) of Czechia, and the eastern (Moravia) or the north-eastern part (Silesia). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian _________ Lavrentiy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Krupnak" <LKrupnak@verizon.net> To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 6:18 PM Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] 1929/30 Czech Census! Here's more: The word "Bohemian" was used to denote the Czech people as well as the Czech language before the word "Czech" became prevalent in English. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian Bohemian German ( Boehmerwaelderischish) is a High German language spoken in Czechoslovakia, Germany and the US. It looks like both North and Central Bavarian. Starting in the 1200's, Germans began moving into the Sudetenland, often invited by Bohemian kings. Over the centuries, they pushed out the Czechs and Slavs living in the area and took it over for farming. Although intelligibility data for Bohemian German is lacking, it is often considered to be a full language of its own, so we will treat it as one in this analysis. Actually, since it ranges from East Middle German to Bavarian High German, Bohemian German seems to be a wastebasket designation for the varying lects spoken in the Sudetenland. On the border of Silesia, it resembled Silesian. On the border of the Erzgebirge, it looked like Erzgebirgisch. In the far northeast, where the Riesengebirge separated Bohemia from Silesia, in the Hultschiner Laendle, the people had a very divergent lect of their own. To the south of the city of Mies, along the Bohemian Mountains, it looked like Niederbayerisch. A dialect called Böhmish is spoken spoken in the Böhmerwald or Bohemian Forest. In the south, extending all the way towards Moravia, it looked very much like the Central Bavarian spoken in Austria. Sorting all of this out and determining what was a dialect and what was a separate language is going to be difficult. Schönhengst is a dialect of this language spoken in Moravia. Egerland Bohemian German (Egerlaenderisch) is spoken in Bischofteinitz, Mies, Tachau and Taus Counties in the Czech Republic in Western Bohemia and in and around New Ulm, Minnesota, where there are still speakers ranging from 52-98 years old. In the Czech Republic, each village had a separate dialect, but all dialects are intelligible. This appears to be a separate language from Oberpfalz Northern Bavarian. This seems to be the same language as Sechsämterland spoken across the border. The Sechsämterland dialect is spoken in the area around Selb, Wunsiedel, Hohenberg and Thierstein in the far northeast of Bavaria near the border with Czechoslovakia and Lower Saxony. Dialectal diversity is very high in this area, and every village has its own dialect. Lauterbach is a divergent dialect spoken east of Tirschenreuth on the Czech border. Tiss is a divergent subdialect of Egerland. Sangerberg is a divergent Egerlaenderisch dialect spoken in Prameny, Czechoslovakia. Cheb is spoken in the large German city of the same name. Tachauer is a dialect that formed the basis for the Machliniec dialect spoken formerly spoken by the Carpathian Germans in their language island in the Machliniec area of the Ukraine. They left during WW2. German Central Bavarian is a group of Bavarian lects that are spoken in Germany. This group includes Lower Bavarian, Upper Bavarian and Lechrain Bavarian (Lechrainisch). Lechrain Bavarian is spoken in Western Bavaria and is transitional to Swabian. Map of the Lechrain region. Lechrain is very different from the rest of Bavarian, but intelligibility data is lacking. Lower Bavarian includes the Bohemian Forest language and many dialects. Upper Bavarian includes the Starnberg, Highland and Meisbach languages and many dialects. http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/reworking-of-german-language-classification-part-3-high-german/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aida Kraus" <birchbaylady@gmail.com> To: <german-bohemian@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] 1929/30 Czech Census! > Czech and German are two entirely different languages. Czech's base > roots > are Slavic and similar to Polish and Russian. German has its base in > Germanic language roots, like Austrian, Swiss, and is related to all > Scandinavian languages and German dialects. If your ancestral family > residing in Bohemia spoke both languages, they were bilingual. You > spoke > either German or Czech in Bohemia. The Czechs referred to their home > language as "Bohemian" and the Germans from Bohemia referred to their > home > dialect "Bohemian" when they were away from home and lived in America. > So > I hope that this will make you > aware that your family spoke two entirely different language, and now > you > have to find written records in either language to identify their > ethnicity. > Aida > > ----------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 1:34 PM, <nechkash@comcast.net> wrote: > >> >> >> Hello Aida, >> >> >> >> My father was born as a second-generation US citizen in Wisconsin, >> but >> didn't speak English until he went to grade school (about 1931). The >> >> family and all the local's spoken only the native tongue (Bohemian). >> He >> and my Aunt Mary always claimed they also understand German because >> >> it was similar enough to the Bohemian language? Is this the case? >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Daniel Nechkash >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> >> >> From: "Aida Kraus" <birchbaylady@gmail.com> >> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com >> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 3:50:38 PM >> Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] 1929/30 Czech Census! >> >> I do not know what part the Census played in the expulsion except >> that the >> individual resident had to decide on his ethnic preference. >> Generally, you >> were a Czech when you spoke the Czech language at home, and >> consequently >> you >> were German if you spoke German. But that in itself is totally false, >> because families were blended there since the early times when the >> area was >> settled by tribes and later when civilization made an impact, like >> during >> the reign of Karl IV (1316-1378) who was the Bohemian King of mixed >> marriage >> himself. His father was a Luxemburger, his mother Elizabeth of >> Bohemia is >> claimed to be Czech, but her mother was Judith of Habsburg. Their >> home >> language was German and French. Their son Karl IV's first wife was >> the >> daughter of the French King and could not speak Czech, so their >> family >> spoke >> German at home, his next two wives were Germans and his last wife was >> from >> Poland. The claim to Slavic is a strong as the claim to German and >> separating the two had no advantage to either side. So..... as these >> families were intermingled, so was the population and one simply >> spoke the >> language of the majority of the local population. You will find >> totally >> German villages within Czech territory, you will find Czechs living >> in >> German territories and so they spoke whatever language was spoken >> there and >> this has NOTHING whatsoever to do with their ethnic background. The >> only >> place where there was a clear distinction between Czech and German >> was in >> the Egerland, because that particular area belonged historically to >> Bavaria >> before it was given as a loan-security to the Bohemian crown. The >> Wittelsbacher needed money to consolidate their Bavarian Kingdom and >> gave >> up >> the Egerland for money they desperately needed to keep their other >> borders >> protected. In the Egerland, therefore, they spoke an Upper Frankish, >> and >> this is very old dialect an quite distinct from the other German >> patios >> spoken elsewhere. This upper Frankish dialect is still spoken in >> Bayreuth, >> Marktredwitz etc. along the North Western border of the Czech >> Republic. >> That language has nothing to do with the Saxon dialect which is >> spoken >> along the northern mountain range called Kruzne Hory now, and was >> called >> "Erzgebirge" throughout history. It is a fact that the Egerland was >> never >> rescued by Bavaria in repaying that loan and so it never got out of >> hock; >> but this in itself was never perceived as necessary, because the >> King of >> Bohemia was - in fact - the Roman Kaiser of the German Nations which >> included all the Germanic lands, and on top of this, the capital of >> the >> Egerland, namely the town of Eger (now Cheb) was a German Reichsstadt >> like >> Nuremberg, with the same legal rights. The division between Czech >> and >> German was never an issue until other nations had an interest to sow >> the >> seeds of discontent for their own political profits. The Slavic >> movement >> in >> the Habsburg empire did not make an impact until 1866 with the >> political >> movement of Panslavism. Before that, all ethnic groups, i.e. >> Austrians, >> Hungarians, Romanians, part of the Ukraine, Serbs. Croats, Slovaks, >> Galician >> Poles, Moravians, Bohemians and Tyrolians all came to America under >> an >> Austrian passport. And at times it also included Belgium, Luxemburg, >> Alsace >> and Lorraine. They all belonged to the same motherland who happened >> to have >> German as their administrative language, because their capital was >> Vienna. >> The international language was French. So, you can see that their >> modern >> aim of a United Europe, is about as close to what the Austrian >> Hungarian >> Monarchy was to begin with. >> The way I can explain it and to paint a picture of what it was >> like to >> live in Austria Hungary just compare it to Canada. There you have >> English >> speaking, French speaking and many native Nations speaking their >> various >> dialects as well as Esquimos ...... and they also live in separate >> areas, >> just as it was in Austria Hungary. So now you know how it was in >> Austria >> Hungary for your ancestors, and that it was the AREA where you lived >> that >> guided the language spoken there. The time has finally come that we >> do >> away >> with this "ethnic" thing. In all truth it is totally meaningless. >> We are >> people who have happily melted here on American soil, so where is >> this >> difference as a people??? >> I will tell you where, in nothing but the nostalgia of an old >> song in >> a >> familiar language which you have heard at your mother's breast. And >> that >> is worth sharing! >> Aida >> >> ------------------------------------------- >> >> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Biddy Orr <biddyt4@xtra.co.nz> >> wrote: >> >> > Aida - I would be grateful if you could provide an answer to this >> question, >> > please? >> > >> > >> > >> > What part did the 1929/30 Census play in the expulsion of the >> > Germans >> from >> > Czechoslovakia after World War 11. I understand it was to do with >> > 'language' >> > - the 'mother' tongue? >> > >> > >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Biddy Orr >> > >> > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > without >> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site > http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am quite sure of my father - my grandmother (the Wintra, Winter, Winters, eta) family came from Vesele, Bohemia, Czech and several surrounding villages in 1778.  But my father - my grandfather (the Neckar lineage ), I am not sure.  All that I know is John Neckar (my gr-gr-father) came through New York S tate to Wisconsin around 1854.  I sometimes wonder if the Neckar were actually of German decent, and not Slavic. Dan Nechkash ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aida Kraus" <birchbaylady@gmail.com> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 4:49:48 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] 1929/30 Czech Census! Czech and German are two entirely different languages.  Czech's base roots are Slavic and similar to Polish and Russian.  German has its base in Germanic language roots, like Austrian, Swiss, and is related to all Scandinavian languages and German dialects.  If your ancestral family residing in Bohemia spoke both languages, they were bilingual.  You spoke either German or Czech in Bohemia. The Czechs referred to their home language as "Bohemian" and the Germans from Bohemia referred to their home dialect "Bohemian" when they were away from home and lived in America.  So I hope that this will make you  aware that your family spoke two entirely different language,  and now you have to find written records in either language to identify their ethnicity. Aida ----------------------------------------------- On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 1:34 PM, <nechkash@comcast.net> wrote: > > > Hello Aida, > > > > My father was born as a second-generation US citizen in Wisconsin, but > didn't speak English until he went to grade school (about 1931).  The > > family and all the local's spoken only the native tongue (Bohemian).   He > and my Aunt Mary always claimed they also understand German because > > it was similar enough to the Bohemian language?  Is this the case? > Thanks, > > > > Daniel Nechkash > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Aida Kraus" <birchbaylady@gmail.com> > To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 3:50:38 PM > Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] 1929/30 Czech Census! > > I do not know what part the Census played in the expulsion except that the > individual resident had to decide on his ethnic preference.  Generally, you > were a Czech when you spoke the Czech language at home, and consequently > you > were German if you spoke German. But that in itself is totally false, > because families were blended there since the early times when the area was > settled by tribes and later when civilization made an impact, like during > the reign of Karl IV (1316-1378) who was the Bohemian King of mixed > marriage > himself.  His father was a Luxemburger, his mother Elizabeth of Bohemia is > claimed to be Czech, but her mother was Judith of Habsburg. Their home > language was German and French. Their son Karl IV's first wife was the > daughter of the French King and could not speak Czech, so their family > spoke > German at home, his next two wives were Germans and his last wife was from > Poland.  The claim to Slavic is a strong as the claim to German and > separating the two had no advantage to either side. So.....  as these > families were intermingled, so was the population and one simply spoke the > language of the majority of the local population.  You will find totally > German villages within Czech territory, you will find Czechs living in > German territories and so they spoke whatever language was spoken there and > this has NOTHING whatsoever to do with their ethnic background.  The only > place where there was a clear distinction between Czech and German was in > the Egerland, because that particular area belonged historically to Bavaria > before it was given as a loan-security to the Bohemian crown. The > Wittelsbacher needed money to consolidate their Bavarian Kingdom and gave > up > the Egerland for money they desperately needed to keep their other borders > protected. In the Egerland, therefore, they spoke an Upper Frankish, and > this is very old dialect an quite distinct from the other German patios > spoken elsewhere.  This upper Frankish dialect is still spoken in Bayreuth, > Marktredwitz etc. along the North Western border of the Czech Republic. >  That language has nothing to do with the Saxon dialect which is spoken > along the northern mountain range called Kruzne Hory now, and was called > "Erzgebirge" throughout history.  It is a fact that the Egerland was never > rescued by Bavaria in repaying that loan and so it never got out of hock; >  but this in itself was never perceived as necessary, because the King of > Bohemia was - in fact - the Roman Kaiser of the German Nations which > included all the Germanic lands, and on top of this, the capital of the > Egerland, namely the town of Eger (now Cheb) was a German Reichsstadt like > Nuremberg,  with the same legal rights.  The division between Czech and > German was never an issue until other nations had an interest to sow the > seeds of discontent for their own political profits.  The Slavic movement > in > the Habsburg empire did not make an impact until 1866 with the political > movement of Panslavism. Before that, all ethnic groups, i.e. Austrians, > Hungarians, Romanians, part of the Ukraine, Serbs. Croats, Slovaks, > Galician > Poles, Moravians, Bohemians and Tyrolians all came to America under an > Austrian passport.  And at times it also included Belgium, Luxemburg, > Alsace > and Lorraine. They all belonged to the same motherland who happened to have > German as their administrative language, because their capital was Vienna. > The international language was French.  So, you can see that their modern > aim of a United Europe, is about as close to what the Austrian Hungarian > Monarchy was to begin with. >      The way I can explain it and to paint a picture of what it was like to > live in Austria Hungary just compare it to Canada. There you  have English > speaking, French speaking and many native Nations speaking their various > dialects as well as Esquimos ...... and they also live in separate areas, > just as it was in Austria Hungary. So now you know how it was in Austria > Hungary for your ancestors, and that it was the AREA where you lived that > guided the language spoken there.  The time has finally come that we do > away > with this "ethnic" thing.  In all truth it is totally meaningless.  We are > people who have happily melted here on American soil, so where is this > difference as a people??? >      I will tell you where, in nothing but the nostalgia of an old song in > a > familiar language which you have heard at your mother's breast.   And that > is worth sharing! >    Aida > > ------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Biddy Orr <biddyt4@xtra.co.nz> wrote: > > > Aida - I would be grateful if you could provide an answer to this > question, > > please? > > > > > > > > What part did the 1929/30 Census play in the expulsion of the Germans > from > > Czechoslovakia after World War 11. I understand it was to do with > > 'language' > > -  the 'mother' tongue? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Biddy Orr > > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Aida,   My father was born as a second-generation US citizen in Wisconsin, but didn't speak English until he went to grade school (about 1931).  The family and all the local's spoken only the native tongue (Bohemian).   He and my Aunt Mary always claimed they also understand German because it was similar enough to the Bohemian language?  Is this the case? Thanks, Daniel Nechkash ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aida Kraus" <birchbaylady@gmail.com> To: german-bohemian@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 3:50:38 PM Subject: Re: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] 1929/30 Czech Census! I do not know what part the Census played in the expulsion except that the individual resident had to decide on his ethnic preference.  Generally, you were a Czech when you spoke the Czech language at home, and consequently you were German if you spoke German. But that in itself is totally false, because families were blended there since the early times when the area was settled by tribes and later when civilization made an impact, like during the reign of Karl IV (1316-1378) who was the Bohemian King of mixed marriage himself.  His father was a Luxemburger, his mother Elizabeth of Bohemia is claimed to be Czech, but her mother was Judith of Habsburg. Their home language was German and French. Their son Karl IV's first wife was the daughter of the French King and could not speak Czech, so their family spoke German at home, his next two wives were Germans and his last wife was from Poland.  The claim to Slavic is a strong as the claim to German and separating the two had no advantage to either side. So.....  as these families were intermingled, so was the population and one simply spoke the language of the majority of the local population.  You will find totally German villages within Czech territory, you will find Czechs living in German territories and so they spoke whatever language was spoken there and this has NOTHING whatsoever to do with their ethnic background.  The only place where there was a clear distinction between Czech and German was in the Egerland, because that particular area belonged historically to Bavaria before it was given as a loan-security to the Bohemian crown. The Wittelsbacher needed money to consolidate their Bavarian Kingdom and gave up the Egerland for money they desperately needed to keep their other borders protected. In the Egerland, therefore, they spoke an Upper Frankish, and this is very old dialect an quite distinct from the other German patios spoken elsewhere.  This upper Frankish dialect is still spoken in Bayreuth, Marktredwitz etc. along the North Western border of the Czech Republic.  That language has nothing to do with the Saxon dialect which is spoken along the northern mountain range called Kruzne Hory now, and was called "Erzgebirge" throughout history.  It is a fact that the Egerland was never rescued by Bavaria in repaying that loan and so it never got out of hock;  but this in itself was never perceived as necessary, because the King of Bohemia was - in fact - the Roman Kaiser of the German Nations which included all the Germanic lands, and on top of this, the capital of the Egerland, namely the town of Eger (now Cheb) was a German Reichsstadt like Nuremberg,  with the same legal rights.  The division between Czech and German was never an issue until other nations had an interest to sow the seeds of discontent for their own political profits.  The Slavic movement in the Habsburg empire did not make an impact until 1866 with the political movement of Panslavism. Before that, all ethnic groups, i.e. Austrians, Hungarians, Romanians, part of the Ukraine, Serbs. Croats, Slovaks, Galician Poles, Moravians, Bohemians and Tyrolians all came to America under an Austrian passport.  And at times it also included Belgium, Luxemburg, Alsace and Lorraine. They all belonged to the same motherland who happened to have German as their administrative language, because their capital was Vienna. The international language was French.  So, you can see that their modern aim of a United Europe, is about as close to what the Austrian Hungarian Monarchy was to begin with.      The way I can explain it and to paint a picture of what it was like to live in Austria Hungary just compare it to Canada. There you  have English speaking, French speaking and many native Nations speaking their various dialects as well as Esquimos ...... and they also live in separate areas, just as it was in Austria Hungary. So now you know how it was in Austria Hungary for your ancestors, and that it was the AREA where you lived that guided the language spoken there.  The time has finally come that we do away with this "ethnic" thing.  In all truth it is totally meaningless.  We are people who have happily melted here on American soil, so where is this difference as a people???      I will tell you where, in nothing but the nostalgia of an old song in a familiar language which you have heard at your mother's breast.   And that is worth sharing!    Aida ------------------------------------------- On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Biddy Orr <biddyt4@xtra.co.nz> wrote: > Aida - I would be grateful if you could provide an answer to this question, > please? > > > > What part did the 1929/30 Census play in the expulsion of the Germans from > Czechoslovakia after World War 11. I understand it was to do with > 'language' > -  the 'mother' tongue? > > > > Thanks, > > Biddy Orr > > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > German-Bohemian Heritage Society web site http://www.rootsweb.com/~gbhs/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GERMAN-BOHEMIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message