Hallo List: After 6 years of not very patient waiting, my surname chart is supposedly finished. It has been paid for and I am now awaiting delivery. The idea of keeping the chart to myself or charging others for the information contained therein is repugnant to me. The whole idea of searching for one's roots is to make some sort of contact with our ancestors. The copyright laws are supposedly for the protection of "original works" but are so full of holes that one can circumvent them by making minor changes to the work you are stealing from...that said, I have always thought that census data and family charts were never meant to be copyrighted. How in the world can one copyright names and dates? The answer is that you can't! There are copyright tags on many census renditions and family charts which are primarily bogus in nature unless you reproduce the data verbatum. If I extract a name from a census that someone has translated and put a copyright on, that name does not fall under the copyright law. The name is just a name and not the original property of the translator. As far as paying for a census translation is concerned, the fact is that there are those who have been paid to do such translation and have then put a copyright on their work. So who "owns" the translated census? Is it the translator or is it the person/persons who employed the translator? Bottom line is that it doesn't much matter who puts a copyright on a translated census. The translator cannot claim names and dates as original works under the copyright law. AHSGR and at least one other individual have put copyright tags on censuses and have them for sale. While I find it moderately irritating that Russian census compilations have a copyright tag, these censuses are valuable research tools and I am glad that they are available. The extraction of names and dates from the censuses is not "protected" by copyright. The same goes for family charts. Extraction of names and dates is not a violation of copyright law. You can jazz up your family chart with commentary and photographs etc, but the data can be used and incorporated by others without penalty. One needs to ponder whether one is doing family research or whether one is in the genealogy "business." Are we trying to uncover and preserve our heritage or are we trying to make a buck? Professional GV genealogists are sometimes a necessary evil but eventually they will become unnecessary and will fade away. The amateur GV genealogical researchers will eventually compile enough data to put together the entire village structure of their ancestral villages. That, I think, is the goal AHSGR. Are we in the business of genealogy or are we in the "Genealogy Business?" Data should be shared, not hoarded, nor sold for profit. Hugh Lichtenwald, from the farm in Monetta, SC

Having published 10 books with reputable publishers and having had my own work "lifted" on more occasions than once, and not really ever having done a thing about it, or become overly upset, I can say, for a fact, that getting a "Copyright" is not a big deal (I just got another one on another project this week). People have literally taken my material, incorporated it into their own works, after changing a word here or there, put their name on it and not only published it with a Copyright, but an ISBN number. My take on this is; a.) I spend a great deal of time writing my books, researching my books and b.) much of my information has been new and innovative. But, I don't get that upset when people find my published information useful enough to pass on to others. So, with this said, I do have a bit of irritation toward individuals who believe they can Copyright genealogy history related to my family of origin, names, dates and such, and then become upset because I don't want to shell out big bucks for this information because they have gotten a Copyright. I applaud those who creatively reconstruct the stories of our people, and it is appropriate to pay, within reason, those individuals who research lineage. But there are extremes in all areas of life and some of the Pleve Chart behavior does cause need for discussion. I have never charged people to use my information from my books via Xeroxing, etc., and if I have information in my published professional work that will help someone, I have no problem with someone passing it on - word for word, free of charge. Buying an entire book is one thing. Getting a bit of information which is personally useful is another thing. Even in the world of publishing it is correct to lift, word for word, free of charge, a limited word count from a published material, as long as the original researcher, author or creator of the document is listed. My own research into family lineage has at times also come to a halt regarding certain owners of Pleve Charts who want money for information. But, this is their journey, not mine and it forces me to be a bit creative in following other paths. To those of you who have freely shared information, I thank-you from the bottom of my heart. Carla (Wills) Brandon Will, Quisnar, Metzler Jost, Straub, Warenberg Carla Wills-Brandon, Ph.D. www.carlawillsbrandon.com Death is just a bus stop before the next trip!

AMEN to that! Becky Jamison in Colorado On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 07:53:42 -0700 (PDT) hugh lichtenwald <chief29105@yahoo.com> wrote: > Hallo List: > > After 6 years of not very patient waiting, my surname chart is supposedly >finished. It has been paid for and I am now awaiting delivery. > > The idea of keeping the chart to myself or charging others for the >information contained therein is repugnant to me. The whole idea of searching >for one's roots is to make some sort of contact with our ancestors. > > The copyright laws are supposedly for the protection of "original works" >but are so full of holes that one can circumvent them by making minor changes >to the work you are stealing from...that said, I have always thought that >census data and family charts were never meant to be copyrighted. How in the >world can one copyright names and dates? The answer is that you can't! There >are copyright tags on many census renditions and family charts which are >primarily bogus in nature unless you reproduce the data verbatum. If I >extract a name from a census that someone has translated and put a copyright >on, that name does not fall under the copyright law. The name is just a name >and not the original property of the translator. > > As far as paying for a census translation is concerned, the fact is that >there are those who have been paid to do such translation and have then put a >copyright on their work. So who "owns" the translated census? Is it the >translator or is it the person/persons who employed the translator? Bottom >line is that it doesn't much matter who puts a copyright on a translated >census. The translator cannot claim names and dates as original works under >the copyright law. > > AHSGR and at least one other individual have put copyright tags on censuses >and have them for sale. While I find it moderately irritating that Russian >census compilations have a copyright tag, these censuses are valuable >research tools and I am glad that they are available. The extraction of names >and dates from the censuses is not "protected" by copyright. > > The same goes for family charts. Extraction of names and dates is not a >violation of copyright law. You can jazz up your family chart with commentary >and photographs etc, but the data can be used and incorporated by others >without penalty. > > One needs to ponder whether one is doing family research or whether one is >in the genealogy "business." Are we trying to uncover and preserve our >heritage or are we trying to make a buck? > > Professional GV genealogists are sometimes a necessary evil but eventually >they will become unnecessary and will fade away. The amateur GV genealogical >researchers will eventually compile enough data to put together the entire >village structure of their ancestral villages. That, I think, is the goal >AHSGR. Are we in the business of genealogy or are we in the "Genealogy >Business?" > > Data should be shared, not hoarded, nor sold for profit. > > Hugh Lichtenwald, from the farm in Monetta, SC > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >GER-VOLGA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message

Well said, Hugh. I agree. Dick Schmidt ----- Original Message ----- From: "hugh lichtenwald" <chief29105@yahoo.com> To: <ger-volga@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 10:53 AM Subject: [GV] Charts, Copyrights and Genealogy > Hallo List: > > After 6 years of not very patient waiting, my surname chart is supposedly > finished. It has been paid for and I am now awaiting delivery. > > The idea of keeping the chart to myself or charging others for the > information contained therein is repugnant to me. The whole idea of > searching for one's roots is to make some sort of contact with our > ancestors. > > The copyright laws are supposedly for the protection of "original works" > but are so full of holes that one can circumvent them by making minor > changes to the work you are stealing from...that said, I have always > thought that census data and family charts were never meant to be > copyrighted. How in the world can one copyright names and dates? The > answer is that you can't! There are copyright tags on many census > renditions and family charts which are primarily bogus in nature unless > you reproduce the data verbatum. If I extract a name from a census that > someone has translated and put a copyright on, that name does not fall > under the copyright law. The name is just a name and not the original > property of the translator. > > As far as paying for a census translation is concerned, the fact is that > there are those who have been paid to do such translation and have then > put a copyright on their work. So who "owns" the translated census? Is it > the translator or is it the person/persons who employed the translator? > Bottom line is that it doesn't much matter who puts a copyright on a > translated census. The translator cannot claim names and dates as original > works under the copyright law. > > AHSGR and at least one other individual have put copyright tags on > censuses and have them for sale. While I find it moderately irritating > that Russian census compilations have a copyright tag, these censuses are > valuable research tools and I am glad that they are available. The > extraction of names and dates from the censuses is not "protected" by > copyright. > > The same goes for family charts. Extraction of names and dates is not a > violation of copyright law. You can jazz up your family chart with > commentary and photographs etc, but the data can be used and incorporated > by others without penalty. > > One needs to ponder whether one is doing family research or whether one > is in the genealogy "business." Are we trying to uncover and preserve our > heritage or are we trying to make a buck? > > Professional GV genealogists are sometimes a necessary evil but > eventually they will become unnecessary and will fade away. The amateur > GV genealogical researchers will eventually compile enough data to put > together the entire village structure of their ancestral villages. That, I > think, is the goal AHSGR. Are we in the business of genealogy or are we in > the "Genealogy Business?" > > Data should be shared, not hoarded, nor sold for profit. > > Hugh Lichtenwald, from the farm in Monetta, SC > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > GER-VOLGA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/933 - Release Date: 8/2/2007 > 2:22 PM > >