Hi All. I have found this discussion very interesting. I believe we may be confused by semantics. Defining citizen as : A person owing loyalty to and entitled by birth or naturalization to the protection, rights and privileges of a state or nation. Citizenship seem to be like a contract betwee the members of a population and the governing state or nation. If we can agree on the above definition. Then yes it would seem correct that our VG ancestors were citizens BUT with differences. Because of their said Oath upon arrival, they owed loyalty. Because of the Manifesto, they were entitled to certain right, priviledges, duties, etc. that were different from all other Russian citizens. Using US & Canada as examples, citizens under legal ages, adults, and seniors over 65 are all citizens. However we have different duties, rights and privileges according to our age. And of course certain ethnic groups have varied duties, rights and privileges also. Citizenship duties, rights, and priviledges seem to change/evolve for many reasons : some being to age, need, and the political situation at the time. One thing that does not seem to change is the oath of loyalty. Which is why so many of our ancestors left Russia.

One last comment about the citizenship issue from me: I looked at the naturalization papers for my husband's grandfather dated 1923.  It stated he was a subject of Russia, in fact the word citizen was crossed out.  However, in 1942 when his wife completed her naturalization paperwork, it stated her former nationality was Russian and there was no mention of subjet or citizenship. Nancy Nusbaum ________________________________ From: Gail <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wed, November 3, 2010 3:02:11 PM Subject: [GV] Russian Citizenship question re:VG Hi All. I have found this discussion very interesting.  I believe we may be confused by semantics. Defining citizen as : A person owing loyalty to and entitled by birth or naturalization to the protection, rights and privileges of a state or nation.  Citizenship seem to be like a contract betwee the members of a population and the governing state or nation. If we can agree on the above definition. Then yes it would seem correct that our VG ancestors were citizens BUT with differences. Because of their said Oath upon arrival, they owed loyalty.  Because of the Manifesto, they were entitled to certain right, priviledges, duties, etc. that were different from all other Russian citizens. Using US & Canada as examples,  citizens under legal ages,  adults, and seniors over 65  are all citizens.  However we have different duties, rights and privileges according to our age.  And of course certain ethnic groups have varied duties, rights and privileges also. Citizenship duties, rights, and priviledges seem to change/evolve for many reasons : some being to age, need, and the political situation at the time.  One thing that does not seem to change is the oath of loyalty.  Which is why so many of our ancestors left Russia. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message