Many thanks for the additional info.  That really helped. Like you I do not find your man in the Kuhlberg Lists, just like my Kraus ancestor. However, I think your man is in the Herzog FSL at #25, listed as Johannes Krenzer single age 18 from Röding, Bayern.  Bayern in that FSL stands for Kurbayern -- the Grand Duchy of Bavaria.  Kurbener surely is someone's corruption of Kurbayern.  And Rudin surely is a corruption of Röding.  I think someone simply copied Kurfalz into the list by mistake. I tried to find both Röding and Rudin.  No luck. In the Map Guides to German Parish Registers to which you were referred yesterday, there were only three places listed in Bavaria for which it seemed possible to me Röding itself could be a corruption: Rögen -- but unfortunately it was in 1765-67 in the Duchy of Coburg, a completely different country from the then Kurbayern, Rödern - same story -- it was then in the Bishopric of Bamberg, a completely different country from the then Kurbayern, Rödensdorf - same story -- it was then in the Margravite of Bayreuth, then a subsidiary of the Kingdom of Prussia -- a thorn in the side of Kurbayern. I fear I have not been of much help.  I will try to think some more, but cannot promise anything.  Dick --- On Wed, 1/19/11, Sheila Derevage <[email protected]> wrote: From: Sheila Derevage <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [GV] Guidence on researching Kreutzer family in Germany To: "Dick Kraus" <[email protected]> Date: Wednesday, January 19, 2011, 8:40 PM #yiv1218465552 #yiv1218465552yiv1925694313 {height:100%;color:#000000;font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial;}Thank you for your help Dick.  This is what I have Johannes Kreutzer b. 1752 in Rudin,Kurfalz, Kurbener, Germany he died 1842 in Rohleder, Russia.  He was married to Eleonora Lauber 1773 in Herzog, Russia. She was born 1756 in Rohleder, Russia.  I looked in the Kuhlberg ship records but I am not finding a match for this Johannes.  I got this information from Kevin Rupp.  I have asked several times for a referance but I have never recieved a reply.  Thank you Sheila Kreutzer Derevage ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Kraus <[email protected]> To: German Russian Heritage <[email protected]>, Volga German List <[email protected]>, Sheila Derevage <[email protected]> Sent: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 01:23:03 -0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [GV] Guidence on researching Kreutzer family in Germany Hi Sheila.  It would be helpful to know whether the place reference was given for a time before or after 1800?  Also it might help to know the source of the reference.  The only thing that so far is clear to me is that Kurpfalz was one of the large countries whose territories now lie within the borders of Germany.  It was ruled by one of the Electors of the Empire.  Dick --- On Wed, 1/19/11, Sheila Derevage <[email protected]> wrote: From: Sheila Derevage <[email protected]> Subject: [GV] Guidence on researching Kreutzer family in Germany To: "German Russian Heritage" <[email protected]>, "Volga German List" <[email protected]> Date: Wednesday, January 19, 2011, 2:26 PM Hi all Hope everyone had great holidays.   Back in the fall of last year I was researching Johannes Kreutzer b.1752 d. 1824 from Rudin, Kurfalz, Kurbener, Germany.  I am unable to find Rudin or KurFalz or Kurbener in Germany.  I would guess the names have changed since then but I am not finding any information of the change.   I am interested in how to research were my family is from in Germany.  I have read that Germany kept great records in the 18th century and earlier.  But you have to know where your family is from.   I love doing the research I just need a place to start.   I would appreciate any ideas.    Thanks so much Sheila Kreutzer Derevage ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message