Subjects and citizens in the context of the original question means pretty much the same. Subjectship though is a political and legally binding relationship between a person and a monarch. Since all colonists gave an oath upon their arrival they became subjects of the Russian monarchy. All Russian subjects were divided into different social estates (German: Stand, Russian: soslovie), including gentry, commoners (Bürger), clergy, tradesmen, miscellaneous and farmers. Farmers were divided into two main groups: free and serfs. Colonists had a special status that was treated as a separate social estate. Some colonists changed their colonist's estate to become tradesmen and commoners in Saratov, Orenburg, Moscow and St.Petersburg (maybe also gentry, while making careers in the state and military services). That was possible either after their decommissioning (when found non capable of farming) or upon amortization of the crown debts. German agricultural colonists in Russia became to be called settlers-owners after the 1861-1871 social reforms of the Emperor Alexander II. Best regards, Sergej Kindsvater, > Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 17:39:28 -0800 (PST) > From: "S. Zitzer" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [GV] Russian "citizen" question > To: Rosemary Larson <[email protected]> > Cc: [email protected] > Message-ID: >        <[email protected]> > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > >   From what I read in the last AHSGR Journal that is what > it sounded like to me -- there was no such thing as citizenship. > >     Sally > > On Wed, 3 Nov 2010, Rosemary Larson wrote: > >> The U.S. constitution was written for the express purpose to do away with >> kings, czars, etc. >> >> Today other countries also have citizens but in earlier times people were >> "subjects" of whomever was in the ruling class of the various countries, >> principalities, etc.. >> >> Rosemary Larson >> AHSGR VC >> >>

In a message dated 11/9/10 1:00:44 AM, [email protected] writes: > In the Fall 2010 AHSGR Journal, in the article "The Germans of the Volga > Region - 'Sons of > Israle in Eqypt'?", by Dr. Elena V. Ananyan, who is a professor at > Volzhsky Institute of > Humanities, a branch of Volgograd State University, she says: > > "It should be mentioned that according to the Proclomation of 1763 > privilges for emigrants > were granted for five to thirty years (with the exception of unlimited > ones), after that period > that status of German colonists should have become equal to the status of > Russian citizens." > > According to Dr. Anayan, hat sounds like they were considered citizens to > me. > > Gary Martens > ======== What should have happened and what actually happened may have been two different things. Based on what my relatives who were born in Beideck, deported to Siberia in 1941, and who have since moved to Germany told me, the Volga Germans were never considered citizens equal to Russian citizens. For example, because the passports that were issued to them when they were born were stamped "German," there were many educational institutions that they were not allowed to attend and some jobs that they were not allowed to hold. They were considered Russian subjects and expected to obey all of the Russian laws, but they did not have all of the privileges that Russian citizens had. Ruth Schultz Ruth

In the Fall 2010 AHSGR Journal, in the article "The Germans of the Volga Region - 'Sons of Israle in Eqypt'?", by Dr. Elena V. Ananyan, who is a professor at Volzhsky Institute of Humanities, a branch of Volgograd State University, she says: "It should be mentioned that according to the Proclomation of 1763 privilges for emigrants were granted for five to thirty years (with the exception of unlimited ones), after that period that status of German colonists should have become equal to the status of Russian citizens." According to Dr. Anayan, hat sounds like they were considered citizens to me. Gary Martens > > From what I read in the last AHSGR Journal that is what > it sounded like to me -- there was no such thing as citizenship. > > Sally > > On Wed, 3 Nov 2010, Rosemary Larson wrote: > > > The U.S. constitution was written for the express purpose to do away with > > kings, czars, etc. > > > > Today other countries also have citizens but in earlier times people were > > "subjects" of whomever was in the ruling class of the various countries, > > principalities, etc.. > > > > Rosemary Larson > > AHSGR VC > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

From what I read in the last AHSGR Journal that is what it sounded like to me -- there was no such thing as citizenship. Sally On Wed, 3 Nov 2010, Rosemary Larson wrote: > The U.S. constitution was written for the express purpose to do away with > kings, czars, etc. > > Today other countries also have citizens but in earlier times people were > "subjects" of whomever was in the ruling class of the various countries, > principalities, etc.. > > Rosemary Larson > AHSGR VC > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Here is a great website for you to investigate. www.dw-world.de If you read other languages you will find even more information. Have a Blessed Sunday! Horst

Hugh: Linda Otto mentioned that you were also searching for Pinäkenstein from the 1834 Bangert census. I have sent to you a copy of what I wrote to her. What are your comments? Jerry Goertzen

Linda; I hope you have my email answering most of your questions by now. The following are answers to your new questions. I sent you the Heinz data from the "Einwanderung" OSL. Nicolaus Heinz (1713) did go to Straub, (Family #3). Gottfried Bernard (1754/57) was the only one to go to Bangert. I have researched the Bangert Steinhauer family all the way from Bangert to Warenburg and on to Wolfenhausen, Runkel. Have you found your Steinhauer to 1834? If you have, I can take you back to Germany. I have also researched the Pinäkenstein family back to Frauenstein, Sachen, but it took a lot of detective work to do so. As a genealogist, I am used to that, and actually enjoy doing so. In my many years as a genealogist, I have studied the Old German language, the unusual German alphabet, the German phonetics and some of the German customs in language. Also have studied the limited the limited Russian alphabet at the time of the German migration to Russia. Also, I try to put myself in the place of the Russian scribe trying to understand the unfamiliar German dialects and write the name phonetically. It's no wonder there were so many misspellings of names and places in the early years of the colonists. It is most interesting that people don't want to accept the fact that their name was not spelled like it is now. But, I found out in my very early years of genealogy that it is true that names have gone through many changes. My mother's name (Volga ancestry) has four letters but I have verified 8 different spellings (all phonetic) of that four letter name during their 112 years in Russia! Pinäkenstein is a name that made several changes due to the alphabet, phonetics and a confused Russian scribe. You won't find Pinäkenstein in earlier references. In the 1798 Bangert census it is benekeshtian. This is combination of language and phonetic problems. In the German language, 'B' and 'P' are interchangeable just like 'C' and 'K' in Konrad and Carl. In tracing the Pretzer back to Germany, I found it spelled Bretzer. The unlat ä is an alphabet change, and it gives a different pronounciation of the letter 'a'. The "shtian" is a phonetic spelling of "stein". In Dr. Pleve's "Einwanderung in das Wolgagebiet" (Bangert family #4), the name is different yet again. In the Original Settlers' List (OSL) it is listed as Wilhelm Benedikt Stehm ?. Dr. Pleve added the question mark because he wasn't sure of the last name. He used the name as it was spelled in the Kuhlberg List (docu #3372). I checked the name 'Stehm' and could not find it any where else in the Volga. I think the Russian scribe, not used to long German surnames, wasn't sure how to write it. He many have been familiar with the name Benedict and assumed it was a middle name. That is how the name went from Pinakenstein to Benedict-Stehm. The original settler Wilhelm Benedict Stehm (b abt 1743) was a Lutheran, tailor from Frauenstein, Sachesen. His wife's name was Anna Maria (b.abt 1747. They arrived in Oranienbaum on 8 Aug 1766 and in Bangert (F-4) on 1 Jul 1767. According to the 1798 census, they had two children, Anna Eva (b. abt 1767) and a son Ägidius (b. abt 1777). Both parents were deceased. Apparently, by 1834 Ägidius and his first wife were also deceased. If you need some more help, let me know. Jerry Goertzen

Amen. The GV site is for GV heritage interests/questions/exchanges, etc. and nothing else. Ed Schwerdt ----- Original Message ----- From: "NEIL AND VICKI NUSZ" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 9:29 AM Subject: [GV] Politics - Healthcare > Please, Please, Please, > > Lets not bring up politics, healthcare, etc. to GV. > > Limit only to our GV heritage and helping each other in that endeavor. > > Thank You, > > Neil D. Nusz(s) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

And interesting idea for preserving the VG heritage (with my mistakes of translation):   First Provincial Contest about the History and Culture of the Volga Germans. "Knowing our roots" - Parana (Province of Entre Rios) October 2010.   On October 29 took place in the city of Paraná the first contest of questions about the History and Culture of the Volga Germans organized and conducted by the Centro Cultural Argentino Wolgadeutsche (CACW). Participants of two dozen schools in the province of Entre Ríos computing a presence of approximately 120 children between 10 and 16. The event was held in two categories (10 to 12 years and 14 to 16 years) participating teams of four students per school. There was two rounds of questions and a final round of tie in the category of children. The order of presentation was by lot and the series of questions were randomly within the guidelines established in the rules of convocation event on texts distributed in due course. Winners were: School 102 from Valle Maria village (Holy Spirit) in the first category (10 to 12 years) and School 96 (San Jose) from Santa Anita Village in the second category (14 to 16 years). The most important thing to note was the massive presence of children accompanied by their teachers who have been responsible for the preparation of students. The responses were overwhelming, and was appreciated a minimum number of incorrect answers that clearly demonstrates the commitment by some teachers and the other, the gradual integration of children and their families to the history and culture of our community. While the event had a competitive character could see the integration of the participating teams, the query that was performed before each screening question and a progressive learning of history and culture VG by children. All the children and their teachers received qualifications for participation in the event with gifts for groups up to third place, winners included, and books for the libraries of the two schools with the first place. As a corollary, is the satisfaction of seeing that the fresh air begins to enter with the knowledge of the culture and history of our community by the children. Many schools that had promised their attendance and participation, for various reasons could not come that day and reported his regret for the involuntary absence. Situations like this allow us to wait for most important and frequent events in the future.   Professor Horacio Augustin Walter - CACW The dissemination of this news would be appreciated   Best wishes to all the list, Gerardo Waimann - Buenos Aires, Argentina

Greetings, There is a very interesting connection on the Counts von Isenburg. It seems that they were a religiously divided family. There is also a great connection to Neuwied because that is one of the places where the Moravians were given freedom to practice their religion. There are lots of Volga Germans who have chosen to settle in Neuwied and I wonder why? It is quite a pluralistic city and there is a large percentage of Protestants compared to most other places on the territory of the Evangelical State Church of the Rhineland (Rheinische Landeskirche) because there was freedom of religion practiced there before it was practiced completely in other areas of Germany. You may also wish to check on the connection between the Wied family and Albania. The German-language website is much more detailed and really should be translated properly sometime because the English automatic translation really makes it unclear in certain sections. Horst

Hallo List:   The following webpages have been updated as of Nov. 5, 2010   Village of Beideck Village of Doenhof Village of Wiesenmueller   They may be seen on Rootsweb's World Connect, Ancestry and MyHeritage.   Anyone wishing to add to or correct family data in any of the 3 village sites can contact me at [email protected]     Hugh Lichtenwald, from the farm in Monetta, SC VC, Wiesenmueller

Herman , Jerry Johnnie, July 4, 1937- Nov. 2, 2010 Billings Gazette Billings, MT 5 Nov 2010 Jerry J. Herman, 73, of Billings, died peacefully Nov. 2, 2010, following a long and courageous battle with cancer, while a resident at Ponderosa Pines Healthcare. He found comfort in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He was born July 4, 1937, in Hardin, a son of John and Helen Schneider Herman. Jerry received his education in Billings. He was married and later divorced. Jerry worked for the Keystone Readers Services for many years and was awarded Sales Manager of the year and other sales acknowledgements. Periodical Publishing also employed him for a number of years. He owned and operated two bars and a country store in Billings before moving to Livingston to operate the Murray Dodge House Lounge. He later lived in Billings and Roundup. He enjoyed fishing, hunting, working on his cars, and loved to collect and record movies. Jerry loved his family and friends and was loved by many. His constant companion dogs, Tuffy and Fluffy, will miss him. His parents and two children Terri and John, sister Carole and brother Buddy preceded Jerry in death. Survivors include his daughters, Shelley, Sheila and Sheri Herman of Roundup; his son, Thomas Herman of Billings; his brothers, Larry of Miles City, Tom of West Yellowstone and half-brother Wally Herman of Billings; his sister, Betty Greenfield of Miles City; as well as numerous grandchildren, great-grandchildren, aunts, uncles, cousins, nephews and nieces. Funeral services will be held 2 p.m. Saturday, Nov. 6, in the Bullis Funeral Chapel. Interment will follow in the Fairview Cemetery. Bullis Mortuary has been entrusted with the arrangements.

I use weebly.com, it is free and has templates that you can use to set up your pages. They also have a paid service if you want more features. Susan Nakaji Village Coordinator for Hussenbach Life Member of American Historical Society of Germans from Russia Member of the German Russian Historical Society Descendant of Frank and Hussenbach, Saratov. Volga, Russia and Kulm and Leipzig, Bessarabia, Russia ________________________________ Message: 1 Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 03:40:44 +0000 (UTC) From: Sheila Derevage <[email protected]> Subject: [GV] Genealogy Web Hosting To: German Russian Heritage <[email protected]>, "List, Volga German" <[email protected]> Message-ID: Hey all Many of you have your own websites and they look great, I was wondering if any of you would share with me the what web hosting sites you would recommend. I would like to put something out there. Thanks Sheila Kreutzer Derevage End of GER-VOLGA Digest, Vol 5, Issue 388 *****************************************

Contact me for further information. ..............Brent............ Brent Mai, University Librarian Director, Center for Volga German Studies http://cvgs.cu-portland.edu Concordia University Portland, Oregon 1850 Preuss Surnames Balle Becker Beitch Berger Bickhart Braun Breitenstein Brendel Brineau Butbolowski Chuvale Decker Degel Denk Dietrich Digner Dinker Dulson Eberling Fritz Fuchs Fuhr Gaal Grünewaldt Haag Heiland Hein Hofsetz Holzmann Jungblut Karpf Kessler Klamm Kloch Knopf Kreis Kreismann Kretch Kreter Krug Kuntz Lang Linder Lorenz Manaus Meier Mildenberger Minor Müller Neubauer Nick Obold Philipp Prediger Ramburger Ress Rickert Riel Rohlheiser Safenreiter Scharf Schiebelbein Schmidt Schneider Schön Schröpfer Schuld Schwartz Seitz Stick Strack Striwinski Tremant Uhlmann Useldinger Wagner Weber Weigandt Weigel Weisel Weiss Wildt Movement to/from the following colonies is noted: Hölzel, Husaren, Rothammel 1857 Preuss Surnames (including maiden names) Ahlerborn Allendorf Aman Balle Basgall Bauer Becker Beitch Bender Berger Bessler Bickhart Böhm Bondang Borger Braun Breder Breitenstein Brendel Brineau Busch Butbolowski Christian Chuvale Dandörfer Decker Degel Degenhardt Denk Dietrich Diwiwie Domme Dries Dukart Dulson Dumrauer Durban Eberling Erle Fenzel Fler Frank Fritz Fuchs Fuhr Gaal Gedde Graf Grasser Gregor Grünewaldt Haag Händel Heidelmann Heidt Heiland Heilmann Heim Herbstsommer Hirschfeld Hofsetz Holzmann Jungblut Karpf Keiner Kern Kessler Kiese Klamm Kloch Knopf Kraneberger Kreis Kreismann Kreiter Krester Kretch Kreter Krug Kuntz Lang Lauchner Lindner Lorenz Malker Manaus Mannes Martel Mason Matz Maus Mehringer Meier Melchor Mildenberger Minor Müller Neu Neubauer Neufert Neumann Nick Niesser Obold Östertag Philipp Prediger Prol Puhl Ramburger Rau Rebel Redel Ress Rickert Riehl Rohlheiser Roppeldt Rundau Safenreiter Scharf Schell Schellhorn Schenk Schiebelbein Schiebelhut Schildt Schmidt Schneider Schneiderjung Schön Schönfeld Schreiter Schröpfer Schuld Schwartz Schweichert Schwemmler Seelmann Sennlein Sewald Siebe Specht Stankowitz Staudaker Steinbach Stork Strack Striwinski Tremant Tusch Uhlmann Useldinger Vogel Wagner Wambold Weber Weigandt Weisel Weiss Wendler Werner Wett Wiesner Wildt Wolf Zellmann Ziegler Ziegmann Zimmermann Movement to Hölzel is noted.

The word 'colonist ' has narrowed in its meaning over the centuries. 'Colonist' as used in the context of Volga Germans meant 'settler'. Plymouth colony was a settlement of the Pilgrims, who were colonists or settlers. Cassell's German-English dictionary gives Besiedler, Ansiedler, as the equivalent of colonist. The German equivalent for 'colony' can either be Kolonie or Siedlung. 'Kolonie' is given as a zoological term, as in a colony of ants, or bees, or beavers.....

One last comment about the citizenship issue from me: I looked at the naturalization papers for my husband's grandfather dated 1923.  It stated he was a subject of Russia, in fact the word citizen was crossed out.  However, in 1942 when his wife completed her naturalization paperwork, it stated her former nationality was Russian and there was no mention of subjet or citizenship. Nancy Nusbaum ________________________________ From: Gail <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wed, November 3, 2010 3:02:11 PM Subject: [GV] Russian Citizenship question re:VG Hi All. I have found this discussion very interesting.  I believe we may be confused by semantics. Defining citizen as : A person owing loyalty to and entitled by birth or naturalization to the protection, rights and privileges of a state or nation.  Citizenship seem to be like a contract betwee the members of a population and the governing state or nation. If we can agree on the above definition. Then yes it would seem correct that our VG ancestors were citizens BUT with differences. Because of their said Oath upon arrival, they owed loyalty.  Because of the Manifesto, they were entitled to certain right, priviledges, duties, etc. that were different from all other Russian citizens. Using US & Canada as examples,  citizens under legal ages,  adults, and seniors over 65  are all citizens.  However we have different duties, rights and privileges according to our age.  And of course certain ethnic groups have varied duties, rights and privileges also. Citizenship duties, rights, and priviledges seem to change/evolve for many reasons : some being to age, need, and the political situation at the time.  One thing that does not seem to change is the oath of loyalty.  Which is why so many of our ancestors left Russia. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Gabel, Martha, June 3, 1917- Oct. 31, 2010 Scottsbluff Star Herald Scottsbluff, NE 4 Nov 2010 Martha Gabel, 93, of Scottsbluff, died Sunday, Oct. 31, 2010, at Heritage Estates in Gering. Her funeral services will be held at 10 a.m., Friday, Nov. 5, at the Jolliffe Funeral Home in Scottsbluff, with Pastor Zen Voorhies officiating. Interment will follow at Fairview Cemetery here. Memorials in her name may be made to the Farm and Ranch Museum. Friends who wish may call at the funeral home Thursday from 10 a.m. to 7 p.m. Her obituary may be viewed online at www.jolliffefuneralhome.com where online condolences may be made. Martha was born June 3, 1917, in Bayard to Henry and Elizabeth (Fegler) Schoenemann. She grew up and received her early education in Bayard, and on March 8, 1938, she married Raymond Gabel in Scottsbluff. She and Raymond farmed in the Mitchell Valley community for a time, and in 1950, they moved to a farm north of Scottsbluff in the Victory Hill community, where they farmed until retirement in 1975, when they moved into Scottsbluff. Survivors include her sons, Larry (Kay) Gabel of Scottsbluff, Stan (Kay) Gabel of Gering, Frank (Alyce) Gabel of Alamogordo, N.M. and James (Sandra) Gabel of Grand Island; daughter, Ann (Dennis) Zitterkopf of Houston, Texas; brothers, John Schoeneman of Scottsbluff and Gene (Marilyn) Schoeneman of Alliance; sister, Mary Vogel of Hemingford; and brothers-in-law, Albert Pfenning of Ft. Collins, Colo. and David Martin of Portland, Ore.; she is also survived by nine grandchildren, seven great-grandchildren, a step-great grandchild and a great-great granddaughter. Her parents, husband Raymond, sisters Christina Martin, Irene Pfenning, Annie Schoenemann and Sarah Gabel and a brother Henry Schoeneman preceded Martha in death.

Hey all Many of you have your own websites and they look great, I was wondering if any of you would share with me the what web hosting sites you would recommend. I would like to put something out there. Thanks Sheila Kreutzer Derevage

Hi All. I have found this discussion very interesting. I believe we may be confused by semantics. Defining citizen as : A person owing loyalty to and entitled by birth or naturalization to the protection, rights and privileges of a state or nation. Citizenship seem to be like a contract betwee the members of a population and the governing state or nation. If we can agree on the above definition. Then yes it would seem correct that our VG ancestors were citizens BUT with differences. Because of their said Oath upon arrival, they owed loyalty. Because of the Manifesto, they were entitled to certain right, priviledges, duties, etc. that were different from all other Russian citizens. Using US & Canada as examples, citizens under legal ages, adults, and seniors over 65 are all citizens. However we have different duties, rights and privileges according to our age. And of course certain ethnic groups have varied duties, rights and privileges also. Citizenship duties, rights, and priviledges seem to change/evolve for many reasons : some being to age, need, and the political situation at the time. One thing that does not seem to change is the oath of loyalty. Which is why so many of our ancestors left Russia.

The U.S. constitution was written for the express purpose to do away with kings, czars, etc. Today other countries also have citizens but in earlier times people were "subjects" of whomever was in the ruling class of the various countries, principalities, etc.. Rosemary Larson AHSGR VC