Is it truly against the law to copy something if consideration is given the photographer,or writer which ever it is??? I thought it was against the law to take credit for someone else's work, not to share their work.??????? Sarah could you enlighten us to this law? I know I have a strong disgust for the person that started this, it just about kills this very productive mailing list, I don't know of much that isn't of someone else's work. Helen auntie@netins.net

Hi, I'm researching my Silvernail, Crandall and Merchant families in Albany, Pepin County. I would like to know which newspaper newspapers covered that area or were close. Albany was probably too small to have their own paper. I'm hoping to find information on my ancestors especially in the 1800's. Thank you, Mary Silvernail

Please do so on list I would love to get it at my local library Louise ----- Original Message ----- From: <DWilso147@aol.com> To: <GenWisconsin-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 8:33 PM Subject: Re: [GenWisconsin] Book "Ships of our ancestors" Thank you for sharing the information about the book, "Ships of our ancestors". Would you pass on the bibliographical information (author, publisher, date) so that it might be requested at our local public and/or college libraries. Again, thanks for bringing the book to our attention. Anne & Dennis Wilson DWilso147@aol.com ==== GenWisconsin Mailing List ====

OK, I'm not a copyright lawyer, and I don't even play one online. However, in the past 15 years of managing various online products and services, I've had (cough) "conversations" with a number of copyright lawyers. I had to bear contractual responsibility for *anything* that anyone posted within my "virtual" real-estate, so to speak. Three of them issued cease and desist notices, which I promptly complied with. About a dozen called me and told me there was a problem, which I immediately fixed. ...and one cost my boss $100,000 -- they weren't interested in a warning, or that the material was immediately pulled down, they wanted their damages, period. I honestly had no idea at the time that what the person had posted to a public download area wasn't their own work. I'm not familiar with the specific book under discussion, and so I can't speak directly to the circumstances which apply to it. I can, however, clear up a few misconceptions about the copyright laws. You don't have to copy an entire work or make a profit from it to be in trouble. Giving credit doesn't get around the laws that protect the author and artist, at least when it comes to reproducing, re-publishing, or distributing said work or portion of the work. That said, there are still "fair use" clauses in our copyright law that allow citation without permission for certain circumstances. (Education, research, and journalism being the most notable.) Images, in particular, are usually individually copyrighted by the photographer, and then also held within the compilation of the entire work. Often the photographer is NOT the author of the book, and the author/publisher couldn't give you permission to print/reprint/distribute the images if you did ask. That would fall back to the photographer. This is all covered in what is known as "intellectual rights" -- that is, creative works. The moment you set something down in writing, or an artist to the medium of choice, things are now copyrighted. It wasn't always this way, and there are several different kinds of copyright of materials which could be in effect. Bottom line: Unless something was placed in the Public Domain by the author/publisher or has fallen into the Public Domain because of its age (things published before, er, 1924, I think definitely are. Others might expire from later publishing dates, depending.) it's copyrighted. [For example, what you write in public messages or emails is even copyrighted.] There's some fairly cogent explanations of this at the Books We Own section of rootsweb: http://www.rootsweb.com/~bwo/bwocwp.html Where it all gets hazy is in these sort of circumstances -- especially when rare, or out of print books are involved which could be (or even definitely ARE) still copyrighted. A publisher's copyright lawyer is not going to come looking for you because you copied a the page of of a book with the information you were looking for and a second page of a photograph. That's clearly fair use. But they might raise their eyebrows when "distribution" is involved, and both the list owner and Rootsweb might have to answer for it. The copyright laws have not caught up with technology, they haven't even caught up with the speed at which books, especially reference books, can go out of print. They don't answer nagging questions like the ones that plague this very list. Is it any different if I go to your home for some iced tea and you copied two pages out of a book while I'm there than if you had emailed them to me? Let me assure you that NOBODY wants to be on the receiving end of the lawsuit that makes that decision. But how you want something to be and how it is are not always the same in legal matters. *I* wish I didn't have to pay taxes, for instance.... :) I still pay them, though. It is unfortunate that whomever wrote to Sally seemed a bit harsh. I've been on the receiving end of those sorts of things -- and I really sympathize. Copyright laws were made to specifically protect the livlihood of authors and artists. Just like tresspassing and theft of goods laws protect those who grow crops or have stores. Real property and tangible goods have been protected FAR longer than written words. If you have one of these nifty books that's such a wonderful resource, you might consider writing to the publisher for specific permission to quote small portions of it, with full attribution, for List members doing Family History Research. My guess is that you'd be given permission on most any book he doesn't have in the warehouse for sale anymore. A big hug for Sally, whose heart was in the right place. I'd have never known about this stuff myself, except for that little change of career I took in 1984 that kept me on the cutting edge of electronic content and all the nightmares associated with it. deb (I don't make the laws, I don't make the policy, I just try to stay off the thin ice...) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - deb Christensen (deb_msn@msn.com) Graphics Connection Forum http://www.computingcentral.com/topics/graphics/

The ship was the New York arrived June 26, 1860 from Bremen and Southampton to New York Maybe they are the same ship. I know they made several trips as that was what they were built for. I saw the history of the New York on the internet one time but I don't think I saved it but I am sure it is still there. No picture though. Thanks, Thelma Subject: [GenWisconsin] Re: the ship New York Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 21:35:52 -0700 From: "Sally" <sallyt@mw.sisna.com> To: GenWisconsin-L@rootsweb.com Hi Found 5 ships called the New York. I have one listed 1858 another listed 1864, another listed 1888 another listed 1922 and the last one listed 1927. Which one of these do you think it is, or would you like me to scan them all. Let me know and I will sent tomorrow. Sally

I don't see how scanning the pictures could be wrong either as the pictures have a signature or the photographer's name under them. The book was in a public library, placed there for the public's use. This is supposed to be the information generation, the computer the information hy way, I think we all need to know the answer to this. Someone has made a serious accusation and I for one think they whomever it was is all wet. Please let us know Sally, as a lot of us do just what you were doing, and I will argue to the death that no one can tell you it is against the law to exchange information from a public source as long as you don't put your name on it. As far as I can tell unless you copied the whole book and added your name to it and sold the information, there's not a thing in the world anyone can do about it, or should they want to. This really fries my butt: Helen STRAIGHT aka Kitty Rose auntie@netins.net

>From the site: http://journal.law.ufl.edu/~techlaw/2/fujita.html The Great Internet Panic: How Digitization is Deforming Copyright Law by Anne K. Fujita[1] Cite as: Anne K. Fujita, The Great Internet Panic: How Digitization is Deforming Copyright Law, 2 J. TECH. L. & POL'Y 1, <http://journal.law.ufl.edu/~techlaw/2/fujita.html> (1996). Quote: The preferred legal interpretation is that copyright owners' rights are absolute, and users are not allowed to invade them without permission unless their behavior falls within a statutory exception.[25] The White Paper states, "Users are not granted affirmative 'rights' under the Copyright Act; rather, copyright owners' rights are limited by exempting certain uses from liability."[26] Whatever the language, these exceptions are part of the law, and they do allow users to do certain things with copyrighted material without an owner's permission, thus limiting owners' rights in favor of users. {9} The first, and potentially broadest of these exceptions is the fair use exception.[27] It allows copying without permission for "purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research."[28] The statute lists four factors in determining whether a use is fair. They are: the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; the nature of the copyrighted work; the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.[29] The second most important "user right" mentioned in the Copyright Act is the exception known as the first sale doctrine.[35] Under this doctrine, once a person has lawfully obtained a copy of a copyrighted work, she may dispose of possession of it in any way she likes without the copyright owner's permission. This allows people to lend books to their friends, give them as gifts, sell them to a used book store, etc. It is crucial for libraries, because it allows them to loan the same book to hundreds of people free of charge because they themselves are not charged. This doctrine greatly facilitates the spread of information and is very important to users, especially low and middle income users. End quote I am not an attorney and I'm not giving legal advice. However, my personal opinion is that since genealogy is, by its very nature, research, and since this book was in a library, (and is most likely available through many libraries and through interlibrary loan) so that any individual could get the book and make their own copies for their research, that one would be hard pressed to find a violation of copyright here. Quite frankly, instead of posing a threat to the economic well-being of the author/artist, I would think it would boost sales, as most people would probably want the "real thing" in their genealogical libraries. Look at copyrighted sites on the Internet and they basically say the same thing -- give them credit for their work, don't try to make a profit off their efforts, and there's no problem in copying all or part of their stuff. Once in a while they will state specifically that you have to get permission. I think it's much ado about nothing. Star O

Sally, You haven't made an enemy here. I appreciate your thoughtfulness in offering the scans very much. Maybe to get around the copyright laws these people are talking about, you could simply do the lookups for us minus the scans. That way we can look for the book ourselves, in our own hometown library, or buy a copy of it. May sound selfish of me, and I'm sorry if it does, but I am very interested in seeing if the 2 boats I'm aware of that my ancestors immigrated on are in that book. Like so many of the listers have already said, please, don't let this get you down. I've done many many lookups myself for people on the lists. I guess maybe a lot of us have broken copyright laws this way. I find it interesting that someone on the list has been offended by this, I wonder if that person has ever copied any information for genealogy out of any book whatsoever. I am a writer/photographer by trade, and am well-aware of the protection of copyright laws. When you stop and think about it though, alot of the information we genealogists use comes from books that others wrote, not all of them with expired copyrights either. I just want to thank you again for your generous offer Sally. It really was much appreciated by most of us. Good luck, Sarah

I have three books on loan from the library Ships of our ancestors, The Great Liners and Great Passenger Ships of the World, and there are at lot more books on ships still at the library. If someone needs something e-mail me privately. DPayne 7378@aol.com

Thank you for sharing the information about the book, "Ships of our ancestors". Would you pass on the bibliographical information (author, publisher, date) so that it might be requested at our local public and/or college libraries. Again, thanks for bringing the book to our attention. Anne & Dennis Wilson DWilso147@aol.com

I am searching for info on a John Harvey WEDGE (possibly born WHITE), born 10-10-1866 (1867?), somewhere in Wisconsin. Was located in Minneapolis, MN at age 19 (1885-1886). John Harvey Wedge was married to Thea Bell on 10-15-1902 in Minneapolis. Died 10-28-1931 in Minneapolis. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks - Bob

--part1_d.5e46ab0.2672dcbd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_d.5e46ab0.2672dcbd_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: <MMarciabill@aol.com> From: MMarciabill@aol.com Full-name: MMarciabill Message-ID: <72.9adb6.267150b4@aol.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:40:36 EDT Subject: Henriksen - Gjermo To: GENWisconsin-L-request@rootsweb.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 28 Hello...I have just subscribed! I'm searching for any records of my gr grandfather, who immigrated to Spring Valley in 1881, I think from Oslo. He later moved to Chicago and lived out his life there. His name was (Henrik) Otto Henriksen, he was born the 8th child in Ahlval, Hedmark Norway. According to information sent to me from Norway he travelled with several other young laborers even tho he had ( a wife?) and child just a few months old. The child was my grandfather, George Bartman Henriksen. I've been unable to find a marriage record, or a birth record fro them in Norway, nor do I know exactly when they emigrated - the 1910 census says Hilda arrived in 1883. I have found Otto's wife (Hilda), in the 1893 city directory in Chicago, listed as the widow of Otto. In 1900 Hilda is listed in the census in Chicago as a widow with 6 living children. When my grandfather grew up he married another Norweigen immigrant, Martha (Nilsdotter) Gjermo, Gjermo being the name of the farm she came from in Voss. I know Grandma Henriksen had family in Wisconsin because we used to visit some of them. I'm fuzzy on the names. I had a cousin Carol (last name?) around my age ...I am now 57...she lived on a farm. Uncle Oscar, Aunt Tilly...Uncle Gilbert...gr uncle Lars... a bull named Bill we were worned to stay away from. I apoligize for the length of this letter...does any of this sound familiar to any of you listers? If it does please contact me . Marcia --part1_d.5e46ab0.2672dcbd_boundary--

Hi everyone, Going to take the book "Ships of our Ancestors" back to the library. I apologize if I have upset anyone on the list in regard to the lookup in the book, Ships of our Ancestors. It seems that some feel like I have violated copyright law. It never was my intention. I thought that this was legal, because of how the many times I have requested information and pages from certain books from libraries, historical societies and the like. They have always made me aware that only portions could be copied due to copyright law. So I guess I mistakenly thought that this was okay to offer this help regarding this book. Anyway my apologies and I will be more careful in the future. I hope that I have not made any enemies concerning this subject. Thanks for listening Sally

Sally, I am not a copy right lawyer, but could you please ask your negative source EXACTLY how you violated copy right laws?? My kids do the exact same thing you were doing when they turn in reports to college professors.... You were not selling it, you didn't claim it, and you gave the book the credit... perhaps you are not allowed to scan the pictures and that is the problem... I would really like to know just how you crossed the line. Anyway, thank you very much for your time and effort... Iris

Sally, I wouldn't let it upset you. You acknowledged where the info came from, you did not claim it as your own nor did you alter anything. You read & reported the same. I have done this many times also. You did not see profit not did you get any thing from it. Myself, I thank you for your kindness and generosity in sharing with the list. It was very thoughtful to want to help. There are always those that disagree and that's not bad, but we all think differently (thank God) so none of us are alike. Hope you have success in your future searches and thank you for being thoughtful enough to care about your fellow genealogists and trying to share. Cathie "Every wall is a door." – Emerson

Not all of us are upset, I would have done the same thing. I think you acted out of concern for your fellow genealogists, and I thank you for your efforts. Darlyne ----- Original Message ----- From: Sally <sallyt@mw.sisna.com> To: <GenWisconsin-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 3:02 PM Subject: [GenWisconsin] Apologies to the list and the members of the list > Hi everyone, > Going to take the book "Ships of our Ancestors" back to the library. > I apologize if I have upset anyone on the list in regard to the lookup in the book, Ships of our Ancestors. > It seems that some feel like I have violated copyright law. It never was my intention. I thought that this was legal, because of how the many times I have requested information and pages from certain books from libraries, historical societies and the like. They have always made me aware that only portions could be copied due to copyright law. > So I guess I mistakenly thought that this was okay to offer this help regarding this book. > Anyway my apologies and I will be more careful in the future. I hope that I have not made any enemies concerning this subject. > Thanks for listening > Sally > > > ==== GenWisconsin Mailing List ==== > >

The ship not found in book

Hi Thelma, You asked for a lookup and I dont remember if I got back with you on it. Let me know please, I don't want you to think I ignored your request. Sally

Lord Have mercy Sally, who said it was against the law??? I have done the same thing, we all have, that's what this list does is help oneanother. I hope this is just a jealous fluke on someone's less than adequate self esteem. How can it be against the law to pass along something you have read??? God at this rate we won't be able to say Hi, because someone else has already said it. I am serious about wanting to know who said it was against the law?? Helen STRAIGHT aka Kitty Rose auntie@netins.net

Looking for any information on VINCENT MATCOVICH and wife ANNA ZUKOSKI that were in Montreal in 1912. They had a son Michael Paul bn. in 1907 in Ky. and a son JOSEPH F. bn. in Iron Co. in 1912. Would like any information at all concerning this family. Phyllis in Fl.