Karen Your description of the use of mitochiondrial DNA for establishing relationships is right on the money. It has already been used to confirm the findings of the Romonov family, the last royal family of Russia. Following the revolution of 1917 in Russia, the Romonov family was executed. In 1991, their presumptive remains were discovered. Genetic testing with nuclear DNA established that there was a family unit, consisting of a mother, a father and three daughters. The identity of the Czarina and the three daughters was confirmed by comparing their mitochondrial DNA with that of the grandson of one of the Czarina's sisters, who happens to Prince Phillip of England, Queen Elizabeth's husband (The Queen and Prince Phillip are in fact 3rd cousins). The match was perfect and from a genetic perspective, they were four generations apart. Attempts to identify the Czar were a bit more difficult. The closest living relative willing to be tested was an English Duke who was genetically six generations removed. Their mitochondrial DNA match was not perfect, the Czar had a mixed population of mitochondria, but the Duke didn't. Since each cell contains thousands of mitochondria, when a mutation occurs in one of them, that results in a mixed population of the two types. In time, one of the types will be lost, resulting in a homogeneous population. The investigators were able, however, to exhume the body of a brother of the Czar, who had died before the Revolution. He had the same mixed population of mitochondria as did the Czar, thun confirming the identity of the Czar. Finally, there was Anna Manahan who claimed to be Anastasia Romonov. When her DNA was compared to that of Prince Phillip, there were six differences, indicating that they were not related. In fact, her mitochondrial DNA matched that of a man who claimed to be her grand-nephew. The two pieces of evidence prove that Anna was not Anastasia, as romantic and appealing as the story may be. It will be interesting to see how many "generations" one can go back and still be able to make a positive identification. That might prove to be difficult for most of us, how many people can follow a strict MATERNAL line back 6 - 8 generations? Dick ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Richard C. Gethmann gethmann@erols.com ..... when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth..... A. Conan Doyle

Sounds pretty much true of a lot of todays society. Good luck on your research. Searching Rittel, Alfson, Clabaugh and Sweetman only1or2@webtv.net wrote: > OTEE > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: Balancing needs of the non-pro and persons wanting their > research > Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:39:29 -0400 > From: only1or2@webtv.net > To: kimh@cwnet.com > > I ,too have this situation. My sister and undle want info on 2nd ad 3rd > grandparents. I made copies of what seemed most important and sent them > off. I asked that my sister work on our fathers line as she lived in > that state and would have cheap access to that info,and I in turn would > continue on female line(N.Y.C) much more difficult.10 mo.later I am > working alone on both. As for my cousin the excuse was golf and little > league took up too much of his time and he could not research. Now ,if > anyone wants anything further ,cough up a little cash,do their share of > research,or do without. I guess they will do without! I am the least > able ,by location and financially to do this ,and ye everybody wants a > freebee. Those days are gone. Does this sound petty? > > OTEE

>I was wondering if it is possible to get a photocopy of a birth >certificate that isn't certified where you have to pay $10 (or however >much it is)? Or do the states only send out certified copies? Would I >be able to go to the place myself and make a photocopy instead of paying >the $10? I have a lot of certificates to request and it would get quite >expensive. Hi Catherine, I would imagine each state is different in pricing etc. If you tell them you need it for genealogy and don't need a certified copy, it should be cheaper. You might want to call first to check on prices. Here in Vigo Co, IN, they won't take a personal check. It's either cash or MO. As far as checking the records yourself, again, each place is different. You _should_ be able to check the records, but some places refuse you, or possibly have them in storage where they can't be accessed, etc. So, your best bet is to call them and find out their policy/prices. Pam http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9467/

Hang in there. They may come around yet. I've been working a little here and a little there for ten years. Started out "solo", but now more family members in all four directions( husband-maternal, husband-paternal, my maternal, my paternal) are interested. Not enough interest by them to do research, but enough to share photos, fill in gaps, answer questions, etc. My nine year old even did his Civil War project for SS on a Confederate General we're distantly related to. I nearly fell off my chair the other day when my husband suggested doing a photo journal of what I'd learned on his side for Christmas presents this year. Says he'll help. ( I've heard that one before, like at income tax time. I'll help means "You do it, I'll watch.") I lost my mother (and family expert) last November. Since going through her old photos, I've renewed my interest once again. Oh, the questions I never thought to ask! My suggestion: start with the oldest living family member, especially female. They tend to be more "family history friendly." Happy Hunting! Karen Pekar in WV

Barb, You own those letters that were sent to you. I sure wouldn't be afraid of giving the "researcher's" name out to anyone who might email you privately. I am always very sorry to hear about this type of thing. Elaine bthomas wrote: > I had a negative experience VERY RECENTLY. Names are omitted here. Has > this happened to anyone? Is this a scam? > > A person found my query in a genweb page, and emailed me and said (quote) > "Have info on this family" > "Contact this person" (and included a name and address of another party) > > I wrote to this person, excited that this person had info on my family name > and I asked graciously for copies of any info on this name that she had and > I stated that I would be happy to pay for postage and copies. > > A package came for me, with a bill for RESEARCH FEES, copies (at 25 cents > each) and postage. > I was shocked. I did NOT pay the bill and then this person sent me another > letter, implying that this is her/his retirement income and NO ONE had ever > refused to pay before because they were so delighted with the info sent. > HE/SHE said DONT BE THE FIRST! It was a very intimidating letter, by > design. I replied with a check for postage and copies ONLY, quoting from > my original letter. I again stated that I never ordered or agreed to pay > for research fees. > > This person AGAIN wrote back, with a letter accusing me of many things, > including having a bad hair day or bad PMS, etc. It went on and on about > wasting gas, trip to the courthouse, etc, etc. I had no problem throwing > away the letter, but it was AGAIN, trying to intimidate me into paying for > research not ordered. > > Anyone had this experience? Although I consider it over and will throw away > (unopened) any additional correspondence, it angers me that probably > someone else might have given in to the intimidation and paid this person > anyway. It probably worked before. > BEWARE! > > Barb Thomas > bthomas@wport.com >

I am pasting in a wonderful message posted awhile back to another list. ********** Subject: Re: Research in Washington DC Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 13:55:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-From: RESEARCH-HOWTO-L@rootsweb.com Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:38:03 EST From: RalphK <RalphK@aol.com> Reply-To: RESEARCH-HOWTO-L@rootsweb.com To: GenKoch@aol.com, research-howto-l@rootsweb.com In a message dated 3/22/98 11:50:23 AM, GenKoch@aol.com wrote: <<I will be making a business trip to Washington DC in a couple of months. Any hints on where to go for research (on a tight schedule) and how to best utilize my time?>> Pam, Washington DC is the mecca of U.S. cities for research. Sorry you are on a tight schedule. If time is tight it would be important to know exactly what you wanted to find prior to your visit. For records at the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) that are not on film I suggest you arrange prior to your visit to have needed records available and ready for you at the library on the day you will need them. This is not going to be easy. You should make yourself fully aware of what each repository has to offer prior to your visit. Start with the National Archives. ******** http://www.nara.gov/nara/bookstore/books.html GUIDE TO GENEALOGICAL RESEARCH IN THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES (this book is Softcover: #W200001 $25) ********* These books and finding aids are on line and for sale through the NARA. They are about $3.50 each. http://www.nara.gov/publications/bookstore/microcat.html The 1790-1890 Federal Population Censuses The 1900 Federal Population Census The 1910 Federal Population Census The 1920 Federal Population Census Immigrant & Passenger Arrivals Genealogical & Biographical Research Military Service Records Black Studies American Indians Diplomatic Records National Archives Microfilm Resources for Research A Comprehensive Catalog (This is a complete listing with indexes of what you will find on film at the NARA.--$5) ********* The Library of Congress has a web site and portions of their collection are searchable on line. You will be interested in Local and Family History Room. They have a massive collection of family histories. http://www.loc.gov/catalog/ ********* The DAR also has the most beautiful library in town with a truly impressive collection of family histories and some local histories of interest. I don't think they have a web site but their phone is 202-628-1776, the DAR Library is 202-879-3229. Good Luck, Ralph Komives PO Box 742 Bowie, MD 20718-0742 RalphK@aol.com http://members.aol.com/RalphK/DocumentSearch.html Document Searches in Washington, D.C. Area and Annapolis, MD. Problem searches and common names a specialty. Research at: DAR Library, National Archives, Library of Congress, MD State Archives Carole Watkins wrote: > I, too, would be interested in suggestions for researching at NARA. My > husband and I are planning to be there in the fall and am really new > and green to genealogy. > > Thanks for sharing > > Carole Watkins > carlyj@pacbell.net > > ==== GenTips Mailing List ==== > If you need to unsubscribe to GenTips email the command: > unsubscribe > To: > GenTips-L-REQUEST@rootsweb.com > DON'T send it to GenTips-L that won't work!

You can take in paper, pencil, laptop, etc. They open at 8:30 if you can be there then. You can research until 11:00 or so and then they begin allowing those who could not get a microfilm reader to replace those working on a first-in-first-out basis. In a room just off the sign up desk, they have census indexes for all the states. These may not be available at the FHC in microfilm form, so this is helpful. Sign up for a reaader first as they may run out. When I went there, they assigned me a desk with a plug for my laptop which was nice. Someone will show you where everything is and explain it to you. Enjoy it. Charlotte

Deborah, you need a SF-180 or 160 (cann't read the print but believe it's a SF-180. Complete the form with as much information as you know about him including SSAN if you have it. Don't forget to SIGN the form. Send it to National Personnel Records Center, 9700 Page Blvd, St. Louis, MO 63132. By the way, the name of the form is Request Pertaining to Military Records. Be prepared for a wait. NPRC gets flood with letters like you wouldn't believe and of course, with downsizing of the Government, they no longer have the staff they used to, so it may take 2 to 4 months or longer to get a copy of the record. George gebasden@worldnet.att.net http://www.basden.com ---------- > From: Deborah Donegan <info@buyersmarketplace.com> > To: GenTips-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Military records question > Date: Friday, June 12, 1998 8:42 AM > > I am trying to locate information on my grandfather who was in the military > from 1917 to 1920 and then registered in 1942 with the selective service > registration. Does anyone know how I can get these records? > > Deborah Donegan > info@buyersmarketplace.com > > > > ==== GenTips Mailing List ==== > Support online research! Donate to the RootsWeb Genealogical Project! See more information at: > http://www.rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Carole, I am a professional genealogy researcher and have the good fortune of living very close to Washington, DC. The National Archives, The National Archives II (in Adelphi, MD), The Library of Congress and the DAR are the cornerstones of research here. Be prepared for some frustration because there is a lot to learn, but the more you learn prior to you visit the more profitable you visit will be. Washington DC is the mecca of U.S. cities for research. If you are on a tight schedule it would be important to know exactly what you wanted to find prior to your visit. Be realistic, Census and Ships passenger lists are easier than Military and Military pension records and land records are a bit more time consuming. When you need to see records not on film there will be at least a two (2) hour wait (Military and Pension Applications). For some records you will need to make and have an appointment with one of the specialist who will have to approve your request to see the records. This is not a one day venture if you are seeking more than census, military records, military pension applications or ships passenger lists. This is not going to be easy. You should make yourself fully aware of what each repository has to offer prior to your visit. Start with the National Archives. *************** The National Archives. This is a large site so spend lot of time surfing it. http://www.nara.gov/ ******** http://www.nara.gov/nara/bookstore/books.html GUIDE TO GENEALOGICAL RESEARCH IN THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES (this book is Softcover: #W200001 $25) ********* These books and finding aids are on line and for sale through the NARA. They are about $3.50 each. http://www.nara.gov/publications/bookstore/microcat.html The 1790-1890 Federal Population Censuses The 1900 Federal Population Census The 1910 Federal Population Census The 1920 Federal Population Census Immigrant & Passenger Arrivals Genealogical & Biographical Research Military Service Records Black Studies American Indians Diplomatic Records National Archives Microfilm Resources for Research A Comprehensive Catalog (This is a complete listing with indexes of what you will find on film at the NARA.--$5) ********* this is a National Archives gopher site with a (almost) complete inventory. gopher://gopher.nara.gov/11/inform/guide ****** The Library of Congress has a web site and portions of their collection are searchable on line. You will be interested in Local and Family History Room. They have a massive collection of family histories. http://www.loc.gov/catalog/ ********* The DAR also has the most beautiful library in town with a truly impressive collection of family histories and some local histories of interest. I don't think they have a web site but their phone is 202-628-1776, the DAR Library is 202-879-3229. Good Luck, Ralph Komives PO Box 742 Bowie, MD 20718-0742 RalphK@aol.com http://members.aol.com/RalphK/DocumentSearch.html Document Searches in Washington, D.C. Area and Annapolis, MD. Problem searches and common names a specialty. Research at: DAR Library, National Archives, Library of Congress, MD State Archives

I, too, would be interested in suggestions for researching at NARA. My husband and I are planning to be there in the fall and am really new and green to genealogy. Thanks for sharing Carole Watkins carlyj@pacbell.net

Donna: If you are using Win95 I believe there is a command called WINZIP that should do it. George gebasden@worldnet.att.net http://www.basden.com ---------- > From: donna feagans <fea@WebAccess.Net> > To: GenTips-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Unzipping Pedigree Files > Date: Thursday, June 11, 1998 7:27 PM > > Could someone tell me know to unzip pedigree files on FTM 4.4 > Thanks in advance. > > Donna > > > ==== GenTips Mailing List ==== > If you need to unsubscribe to GenTips email the command: > unsubscribe > To: > GenTips-L-REQUEST@rootsweb.com > DON'T send it to GenTips-L that won't work! > > > > > > > > >

I'd order the 1900 Soundex for the surname in question. Because of his birthdate, he won't show up in the census, but you may be able to locate the family by finding out where people with that surname were living. (I recognize it's kind of a roundabout way to go.) Then I'd check in 1910 to see if they were still living there & locate the ancestor in 1910...hopefully with family. Have you got his birth & death certificates? Did either list parents' names? If so, you can pinpoint the family exactly in 1900, even though he won't appear with them, yet. Karen

Keep at it. Maybe you will luck out like I have through the Internet. I have been put in touch with the help of third parties with two cousins I never knew existed. Now there are four cousins (three of us are first cousins and have known each other since childhood) on my mother's side happily Emailing each other back and forth and not only about genealogy. The other Internet found cousin is from my father's side and we have exchanged information and will continue to do so. The cousin on my mother's side even sent me a copy of a letter My gggrandfather wrote my gggrandmother during the Civil War. T. Gorman rockall@aol.com

I just had to get a certified copy of my birth certificate to send in with my retirement papers. If I remember correctly I think you can get just a copy in Michigan. But then again I understand that in Michigan only that person or his or her mother can get any bieth certificate in Michigan. Maybe you should inquire at the state you want the certificates from. T. Gorman

I had a negative experience VERY RECENTLY. Names are omitted here. Has this happened to anyone? Is this a scam? A person found my query in a genweb page, and emailed me and said (quote) "Have info on this family" "Contact this person" (and included a name and address of another party) I wrote to this person, excited that this person had info on my family name and I asked graciously for copies of any info on this name that she had and I stated that I would be happy to pay for postage and copies. A package came for me, with a bill for RESEARCH FEES, copies (at 25 cents each) and postage. I was shocked. I did NOT pay the bill and then this person sent me another letter, implying that this is her/his retirement income and NO ONE had ever refused to pay before because they were so delighted with the info sent. HE/SHE said DONT BE THE FIRST! It was a very intimidating letter, by design. I replied with a check for postage and copies ONLY, quoting from my original letter. I again stated that I never ordered or agreed to pay for research fees. This person AGAIN wrote back, with a letter accusing me of many things, including having a bad hair day or bad PMS, etc. It went on and on about wasting gas, trip to the courthouse, etc, etc. I had no problem throwing away the letter, but it was AGAIN, trying to intimidate me into paying for research not ordered. Anyone had this experience? Although I consider it over and will throw away (unopened) any additional correspondence, it angers me that probably someone else might have given in to the intimidation and paid this person anyway. It probably worked before. BEWARE! Barb Thomas bthomas@wport.com

Catherine, I don't know about other states but in VA the birth records from 1853 to 1896 are available on microfilm at the Library of VA. You can make copies from the microfilm for 25 cents a copy. Newer birth records you have to get from the Dept. of Vital Statistics and pay a fee even if they don't find anything. Some courthouse records were burned, etc. It may be different in other states. I think US Genweb gives all that information for each state- which years they have, cost and address to order copies. http://www.usgenweb.net Edith You wrote <I was wondering if it is possible to get a photocopy of a birth certificate that isn't certified where you have to pay $10 (or however much it is)?  Or do the states only send out certified copies?  Would I be able to go to the place myself and make a photocopy instead of paying the $10?  I have a lot of certificates to request and it would get quite expensive.>

Otee, Genealogy is my new passion, I've only been doing it since March. I have not had one person, friend or relative express more than mild interest when I tell them what I am doing. My dad who is a retired professor with a doctorate in HISTORY has absolutely no interest. He says "Why in the world are you interested in that!" None of my family has even bothered to write me back when I have requested info, even my uncle who can send Email. So, I have come to the conclusion that it's a solitary hobby, thankfully my husband indulges me just as I allow him his hobbies. I would think that if you offer your research to your relatives, you could ask them for printing costs, etc, if you need the donation. Otherwise, I would consider it a gift. I'm sure that they won't have any idea the amount of time you put in to your labor of love. Just my 2 cents. Dana >

Otee, I'm a widow on limited income. I have absorbed all the expense of doing a Tree. I have shared all information with family. I have mailed, long distance telephoned, and paid for research. I have just written two church archives asking for information and enclosed donations in memory of the people I am researching. The truth is, I think everyone likes receiving the information. I think they think I am doing a nice thing. I also think not one of them would spend the time or money to do it if I didn't. And I don't think it would bother them if they never had the information. And I don't think that makes them bad, it just makes them different from me. It's the name of the game! Best, Elaine only1or2@webtv.net wrote: > OTEE > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Balancing needs of the non-pro and persons wanting their > research > Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:39:29 -0400 > From: only1or2@webtv.net > To: kimh@cwnet.com > > I ,too have this situation. My sister and undle want info on 2nd ad 3rd > grandparents. I made copies of what seemed most important and sent them > off. I asked that my sister work on our fathers line as she lived in > that state and would have cheap access to that info,and I in turn would > continue on female line(N.Y.C) much more difficult.10 mo.later I am > working alone on both. As for my cousin the excuse was golf and little > league took up too much of his time and he could not research. Now ,if > anyone wants anything further ,cough up a little cash,do their share of > research,or do without. I guess they will do without! I am the least > able ,by location and financially to do this ,and ye everybody wants a > freebee. Those days are gone. Does this sound petty? > > OTEE

Karen, Again, you have presented some valid points here.  However, there are two parties involved in any agreement to do research for hire.   The person who is hired to do the job, and the one who is doing the hiring and paying.   I acknowledge that fact that you have brought up some important questions. Nonetheless, I am concerned about one thing - these points, though valid, seem to articulate the legitimate concerns of only one of the two significant parties - the person who is hired to do the research. Ultimately, this is a discussion concerning the distribution of risk when something goes wrong in the process.   Who should bear the risk if something should go wrong?   If the researcher demands 100% payment in advance, he/she is demanding that the person doing the hiring take upon him/herself all of the risk should something go wrong.   Likewise, if the person doing the hiring refuses to pay anything up front, he/she is demanding that the researcher take upon his/herself all of the risk should something go wrong. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT EITHER PARTY SHOULD BE REQUIRED TO TAKE ALL OF THE RISK UPON THEIR SHOULDERS.   Certainly I am not going to take 100% of the risk on myself.  No other person doing the hiring should agree to do so either. On the other hand, you should not be asked to take all of the risk on your shoulders either.   Researchers doing work for hire are earning a honest living and deserve pay for the work they do.  I do not work for my employer for free, and professional researchers do not either. But here is the other side of the scenerio you present.   If I hire a researcher to do the job, pay them 100% of the fee in advance, and then they come back and say they cannot find a thing (or worse yet, avoid my inquiries totally), how am I to know whether they (1) did the research and really did not find anything, or (2) did little or nothing at all on my project? Furthermore, if they did do the research and found nothing (a very real possibility), how am I to keep from retracing their steps at a later time, unless they present me with a detailed written report of what the did do. We both agree on the fact that expectations need to be specific, reasonable and specified ahead of time.   It is NOT unreasonable to expect a written report even if the research produces no new information about my family. So write a report saying what records were examined, and something about what was found even if it is not something about my specific family. Something would have been found of the community's history, or primary surnames of the region or whatever, so include that type of general information then.   Enough so that the person paying the bill knows that they work was done.   In my opinion, that report would be sufficient if nothing was found, and it would allow me to prevent wasting time researching that dead end at a later time as well. That is why I suggest that 50% (but no more than 50%) of the bill be paid until the person who is doing the hiring has received the results of the research.   You may be an honest, hard working, competent researcher, but not every one of the folks advertising research services is as honest as you probably are.   And the problem is that I can not tell over the net how honorable your intentions are.  Neither, for that matter, can you tell how honorable my intentions are. You brought up another point, a very good one in my opinion.  Hiring a researcher to do a series of smaller, more specific jobs before giving them a big, costly and time consuming project. This is another way of sharing the risk, and I am sure that I will farm out my jobs in small increments until I feel comfortable with a researcher. After all, it is a good idea.   However, unless I can share risk with the pro I am hiring, I would never order anything that cost more than a few dollars.  My mother did not raise me to be a fool.  I will share the risk 50-50 - that is the right thing to do from both a practical and moral perspective. But I will not assume the total risk upon my own shoulders, and I will not ask you or any other professional researcher to do likewise. -- Colleen At 08:53 AM 6/12/98 EDT, you wrote: >Other things to be considered: >1.  Are you asking for lookups?  If so, are you asking for specific heads of >families or is the person to find your ancestor as a child?  >2.  If he spends six hours looking at Millers in PA (just an example) and >doesn't find anybody for you--does he deserve to get paid?  That's a lot of >time he spent, that you won't have to...assuming he told you which reels he >looked at...so that it won't be duplicated by someone else looking for the >same person.  >3.  If you're asking for research, we all know that one can spend hours >looking through records and not always find what (or anything) we want.  Now >the person might be a certified professional and know better where to look for >a particular solution to a problem, but  some folks are going to be >disappointed if they don't have solid names & generations.  Some professional >researchers are going to charge by the hour for doing the research whether >they find anything or not.  Other professionals will spend extra time beyond >what they've been contracted for to try to find something tangible to send. >Does this mean the first one is dishonest? >4.  (Many professional research companies insist on a several hundred dollar >retainer before they even begin.)  One way to avoid being taken is to request >small amounts at a time--except sometimes it takes a lot of looking to solve a >problem--and eliminate ten of the eleven "John Miller's".    >     If you're paying for lookups, and not research, you may have to pay for >copies of the records on all eleven John Millers so that you can make your own >value judgment.   > >Perhaps  the best thing to do is to discuss what both individuals want:  just >copies of existing records, or copies of the proof of someone's ancestry. >Does the researcher absorb parking & copying fees, or is that going to be >extra?  If he looks something up in an index, is he supposed to get just the >family that has a son John, 9 years old; or do you want copies of all the >families by that surname.   If what you want is going to be more than a few >dollars, it isn't unreasonable to be expected to send a retainer.  He's going >to have expenses involved in putting your things together.  But negotiating >ahead of time, so that both know what is expected, and when, is a must.  > >Both should keep in touch if it is a long term project.  Genealogy is a fun >project, but it's not inexpensive, whether one does all the work, or contracts >it out. > >Now, if we could only convince the few to STOP TEARING THE PAGES OUT OF THE >BOOKS (or taking the very books themselves).  Some of them have my ancestors >on them too. > >Karen   > > > > >==== GenTips Mailing List ==== >Support online research! Donate to the RootsWeb Genealogical Project! See more information at: ><http://www.rootsweb.com/>http://www.rootsweb.com > > > > > >

Hi, I was wondering if it is possible to get a photocopy of a birth certificate that isn't certified where you have to pay $10 (or however much it is)?  Or do the states only send out certified copies?  Would I be able to go to the place myself and make a photocopy instead of paying the $10?  I have a lot of certificates to request and it would get quite expensive. Thanks! Catherine