> > Two more genealogical truths: You can't determine relationships by > > how a name is spelled. And you can't determine ethnicity by the > > relative position of cheekbones or the color of hair! <g> > > > > "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com> > > what about skin color Richard? > > "Dena" <dena@dbnetmall.com> I guess my answer is, "What about it?" I suspect, Dena, that among the descendants of the Native American you KNOW you have, there will be as many or more with "fair complexions" as their are with "dark complexions." IOW, skin color won't be a determining factor in establishing Indian ancestry, either, at least among those whose Native American ancestry is so nebulous that it could be anywhere from 5 to 15 generations back. What I tried to convey in my previous message is that in almost every instance the only way to find an Indian (or any other specific ethnicity) is to work backward one generation at a time until you turn up some possibilities. THEN you need to know what the sources are for determining whether or not the person is or isn't a Native American. If you have reached that point, then share the details and I'm sure there are some experienced researchers here who can advise you on your next steps. Until then, you probably will remain a member of what the Oklahoma Genealogical Society's magazine once called the largest tribe in America: the Wannabees. Regards, Richard "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com>

> > <snip> > > > > We have European families here too with high cheek bones, dark > > almond eyes and long black hair, except that people here insist > > "they must be gypsies" . . . . > > > > Gil Hardwick <gruagach@highway1.com.au> > > One of my maternal GrGrandparents was said to be an American Indian. > When I decided to compile a genealogy on that lineage, I found to > our utter astonishment we are descended from Roma, who are known as > Gypsies. We descend from the Roma of Europe, in our case, German > Roma. At present some of our kin folks won't even talk to me they > are so perturbed by this information. Apparently, many folks wish > to be Native American, but few wish to be a Gypsy!! > > <snip> > > Fran fpowellsr@starpower.net I saw a documentary on the 'gypsies' or Roma people not too long ago. They have a very interesting and remarkable history. IN the documentary they were analyzing the language for clues to their background. Amazingly some of the words they analyzed told a lot of history about their beginnings. (sounds funny, but I hope you understand what I am trying to say...:) ) I think tho for the most part, it is still a mystery. On the 'German Roma', I have some German Youngblood, or Jungbludt (sp different ways) could that be a Roma line? Something else on this Indian blood thing, I feel somewhere in our line there is some Indian of some kind or some other Indian 'like' race, cause too many of the babies are born with a golden brown 'tan' and black hair which turns brown or blonde later in life, but it is sort of strange in a way, knowing how hated the Indians were by the white families that there are so many who say they are of Indian descent. Only God knows for sure. thanks, dena "Dena" <dena@dbnetmall.com>

> I live in the farthest southwest tip of the Australian continent. > In terms of the globe we are diametrically opposite some point in > the North Atlantic, somewhere north of Bermuda. > > That places us as far as it is possible to get from New York, for > example, and still be on land. We are as far removed from American > Indian blood. > > Guess what. > > We have European families here too with high cheek bones, dark > almond eyes and long black hair, except that people here insist > "they must be gypsies" . . . . > > Gil Hardwick <gruagach@highway1.com.au> One of my maternal GrGrandparents was said to be an American Indian. When I decided to compile a genealogy on that lineage, I found to our utter astonishment we are descended from Roma, who are known as Gypsies. We descend from the Roma of Europe, in our case, German Roma. At present some of our kin folks won't even talk to me they are so perturbed by this information. Apparently, many folks wish to be Native American, but few wish to be a Gypsy!! On my Dad's side of the family we descend from Hilibi Creek. I have been told by a Creek tribal genealogist, there exist two ways to be recognized as a Native American: 1) to descend from a person on the Native rolls and/or 2) to locate a record, often a land record, that identifies the ancestor as a Native American. [Possibly there exist other means of proof, but I only know of those means told me by that genealogist.] Fran fpowellsr@starpower.net

> Does any one have the current email address for the Gayndah > historical society? > > I wish to purchase a photo from their collection but the email I'm > using cberthelsen@telstra.easymail.com.au keeps bouncing. > > "JULIE JAKEMAN" <jjakeman@earthlink.net> Julie, I don't have an e-mail address for Cynthia Berthelsen, but here is the postal address: Gayndah & District Historical Society Inc. P.O. Box 1 Gayndah 4625 Cynthia's home phone number is: 07 4161 1698. The reason her e-mail address is now bouncing is that Telstra shut down Easymail services some time back. Hope this helps..... Lance "Lance" <lbates@bigpond.net.au>

> "Sholder, Kevin L" <KS100004@exchange.DAYTONOH.NCR.com> wrote: > > > Does anyone know if the GenKit application from 1995 has > > been updated? > > > If so where can it be obtained? > > To my knowledge, it has not. > > I first wrote GenKit in 1988 and it was updated in the 1990s by Ray > Cox of Humble, Texas. (As computers got smarter my programming > ability disappeared! <g>. Ray and I briefly discussed updating it, > but so much of what is in GenKit is easily available online that it > didn't seem worthwhile. > > GenKit, Version 2.0, a DOS Freeware program can be download at this > site: > http://www.coxsoftware.com/genutil.htm > It was a neat little utility in its day - and I think it still has > the easiest to use utility for finding the day of week for any > specified date (he modestly said). > > One feature in GenKIt, BTW, is a list of when the changeover from > Julian to Gregorian took place in various areas. I mention that > because I just read a question asking for such information. > > "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com> Download the free calendar program DAYS from http://octhygesen.homepage.dk/EngDage.html It is the easiest use program I have seen. It has an extensive help file that will help you determine when your area changed calendars. Germany was a patchwork of independent states, cities and even a few "Freidorfs" each with their own choice of religion which was a factor in determining the date of change. Generally speaking most of the Catholic areas changed in 1582-85 and the Protestant areas in 1700. For those living near a border it must have been worse than the variations in daylight saving time we sometimes encounter. Do have a look at the calendar, I keep it on my taskbar and use if for contemporary and future dates as well. It also has the short-lived French Republic Calendar. You can type in a day name such as Septuagesima, or 3 p. trin, reminiscere or any of a multitude of others and it will give you the date on a calendar page and you can easily see what day of the week it fell on as well. Often old German records gave a day symbol which is helpful if you cannot make out the date for. Sometimes know what the day was helps you figure out a date. Celia "Celia Mitschelen" <cmitsch@ix.netcom.com>

>From: bev ><snip> > > > Neither Latham, Sarah/Sallie nor Mary Louise show up in ANY census > > > for the years 1880, 1920, or 1930. There seems to be no online > > > record of Mary Louise being married. > >No.... they show up in NO census (censii? ) which I find rather >baffling. Maybe I need to try even more alternate spellings... <snip> >Bev: >I apologize for not following the earlier thread............. But there is >a Latham Anderson >In the 1870 census of Pike County Ohio. Page 12B family 26/26 >Latham age 37 born Ohio >Martha S age 33 born Ohio >Alpha Rosette age 10 born Ohio >J? us J age 8 born Ohio > >I apologize if this is way off of what you are looking for............ if >there is anything close they are also in Pike County Ohio 1900 >Martha S per census born Sept 1837 ........... > >Glee <gleemc@earthlink.net> Dear Glee Thank you for your response... But.... Eureka!!!! I have found a major clue in my search. I simply picked up the phone and called the cemetery in which Sarah/Sallie Douglass Rencher Anderson is buried (and that would be St. Bartholomew's Episcopal Church in Pittsboro, N. C.) They put me in touch with a local historian, who in turned looked Sarah up in the cemetery register. She died in Harmon Park, N. Y. (1934), was cremated, and her remains shipped to the cemetery for internment. So now I know where to find her death certificate, and any probate papers that could be available....which hopefully will shed some light on her daughter Mary Louise Anderson.... I have my fingers crossed! It's quite possible that her husband, Latham Anderson (d. 1910) has a death certificate, and/or probate papers filed there, too. thank you for your help... kind regards bev bev <brencher@earthlink.net>

Richard Pence wrote: >Great story, Joan. The "high cheek bones and black hair" are an >integral part of the American Indian heritage tradition in many >cases. I live in the farthest southwest tip of the Australian continent. In terms of the globe we are diametrically opposite some point in the North Atlantic, somewhere north of Bermuda. That places us as far as it is possible to get from New York, for example, and still be on land. We are as far removed from American Indian blood. Guess what. We have European families here too with high cheek bones, dark almond eyes and long black hair, except that people here insist "they must be gypsies" . . . . Gil Gil Hardwick <gruagach@highway1.com.au>

Carol Botteron wrote: > > I was asking if other cities and towns do such censuses, and if > there is a list of such cities and towns anywhere. From someone's > answer, at least there are other municipalities in Mass. that take > censuses. Hi, Carol! I think it's safe to say the following states did not have cities that do any sort of annual City Census (under that name): VA, MD, WV, GA, LA, SD/ND and CA. I've lived in 4 of those states, Richard Pence has lived in at least two of 'em, I've got relatives in the other two. There *may* be a city census some specific city in one of those states for one year, but I know no city resident in any of those places who know anything about such a census. I lived in Baton Rouge LA for 10 years and never saw a city (or parish) census form or enumerator. I have done research for someone in NYC and if they did a separate city census it's not come to my attention (and if someone knows of one, I need 1838-42; address in City Directory for my GERMAN ancestor is in the heart of an Irish district on the US 1840/Manhattan). Cheryl singhals@erols.com

iriscrall@att.net writes: > Just wanted to thank all of you for your suggestions. However, it > seems Ohio does not have a record for any State Census. According to the book "The Source", no actual state censuses were taken for Ohio but there are lists of eligible voters called quadrennial enumerations. Don't know if that would help or not. Edith ECFensom@aol.com

> Two more genealogical truths: You can't determine relationships by > how a name is spelled. And you can't determine ethnicity by the > relative position of cheekbones or the color of hair! <g> > > "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com> what about skin color Richard?

> If you can't find "them" ANYWHERE, how do you KNOW "there was one > there somewhere"? The search for Indian ancestry is based on some physical characteristics in the family members. If you're a southerner, you have probably heard the expression when a baby is born that "theres was a _____ in the woodpile somewhere!" Insert whatever you like in the blank............but in this case it is NOT African American or Mexican....... does that answer your question??? I withdraw my inquery, thanks to all who replied. This is probably a wild goose chase. dena "Dena" <dena@dbnetmall.com>

> > Any help on determining a half or full Indian on census or was that > > unheard of? Any other clues to finding an Indian before 1880? > > Would have to be possibly in 1850s 1860s generations. gggrp. > > > > "Dena" <dena@dbnetmall.com> > > Do you have any clue as to what tribe they might have been? > > <snip> > > "Melanie Greenberg" <mgreenberg@wideopenwest.com> Thanks Melanie, no I don't have any idea what tribe. Probably something that would have to be determined via DNA. I'll check these rolls, maybe something will come up. thanks, dena "Dena" <dena@dbnetmall.com>

Hi, Does any one have the current email address for the Gayndah historical society? I wish to purchase a photo from their collection but the email I'm using cberthelsen@telstra.easymail.com.au keeps bouncing. tia Julie Jakeman<br> ==== AUS-QLD Mailing List ==== Toowoomba Dead Persons Society www.audps.com "JULIE JAKEMAN" <jjakeman@earthlink.net>

Hello All, The US National Archives has put the Irish Famine Immigrants database online and it is free to search. This covers Irish immigrants to the port of New York from 1846-1851. It can be a bit tricky to search, but start here... http://aad.archives.gov/aad/title_list.jsp Pull down the subject search menu to "Irish," then click submit. On the next page click on "Famine Irish Data Files, 1977 ? - 1989 ?" Then on the next page click on the "search" link on the right side (under "options"). On the search page you put the name of the person you are looking for in the boxes under "enter values." You can find this database and many others listed on my site here... What Passenger Lists are Online? http://home.att.net/~wee-monster/onlinelists.html Good luck with your searches. Regards, Joe joe@genesearch.com

Just wanted to thank all of you for your suggestions. However, it seems Ohio does not have a record for any State Census. again thank you Iris iriscrall@att.net

From: bev <snip> > > Neither Latham, Sarah/Sallie nor Mary Louise show up in ANY census > > for the years 1880, 1920, or 1930. There seems to be no online > > record of Mary Louise being married. No.... they show up in NO census (censii? ) which I find rather baffling. Maybe I need to try even more alternate spellings... <snip> Bev: I apologize for not following the earlier thread............. But there is a Latham Anderson In the 1870 census of Pike County Ohio. Page 12B family 26/26 Latham age 37 born Ohio Martha S age 33 born Ohio Alpha Rosette age 10 born Ohio J? us J age 8 born Ohio I apologize if this is way off of what you are looking for............ if there is anything close they are also in Pike County Ohio 1900 Martha S per census born Sept 1837 ........... Glee <gleemc@earthlink.net>

At Christmas this past year, as I packed up a box to send to the grandkids (age 7,8,9) half a continent away, I threw in a printed out "book" from PAF complete with photo's and family stories of our family history in a binder. I meant to put a note on it telling "the other granma" to put it away until the kids were old enough to care about it. I forgot the note. Later Christmas night, the phone rang. It was the oldest, Katie, wanted to talk to her granpa (my husband). I half-way listened to his side of the conversation...and then things went quiet. There were tears in his eyes. He noticed my look and gave the a "thumbs up" which meant.. "don't worry... it's okay" I couldn't wait for the conversation to end. He told me that Katie had found the binder, left in the bottom of the box, and had spent the whole afternoon curled up on the sofa reading it... new toys and clothes forgotten. She had told her Granpa. "now I know who I am" She asked question after question... She wanted to take it to school for show and tell... She was so excited to have her "history" in her hands. You just never know how the kids are going to react to it. In this case, it was a wonderful Christmas gift for Katie, and for my husband. bev bev <brencher@earthlink.net>

>Hi Bob.. You were kind enough to reply to my query... you wrote: > Are NC death records filed at the county level or at the state > level? I believe they are filed at the county level for the year we are speaking about (1934). However, there is NO indication that Sallie Rencher Anderson died in North Carolina. I hired someone to do a search at the county level and there was absolutely no documentation to support Sallie living there or her death. She IS buried in St. Bartholomews Episc. Church Cemetery in Pittsboro N. C., no doubt there.... but so are all her siblings, mother, and father. > > Neither Latham, Sarah/Sallie nor Mary Louise show up in ANY census > > for the years 1880, 1920, or 1930. There seems to be no online > > record of Mary Louise being married. > > Are you saying that you have found them in the 1900 and 1910 > Census? No.... they show up in NO census (censii? ) which I find rather baffling. Maybe I need to try even more alternate spellings... > For the 1880 Census find the CD version of the LDS Census > transcription and search there. The CD search engine is much > better at finding name variations than the on-line version. You > can search for L* Anderson born ? (assuming you know his birth > date). Or M* Anderson born 1870. Thanks for the tip. I will pursue this further.. bev bev <brencher@earthlink.net>

> I'm interested in locating specific information about the date > changeover from Julian to the Gregorian calendar. I've found a lot > of info on the web already, but I curious mostly about the > Wurttemberg area of present day Germany and whether both the > Catholic and Protestant's changed at the same time. Most of the > area seems to be Protestant that I'm searching. > > I would also be interested in how people refer to Julian versus > Gregorian as it relates to their documentation. > > Kevin L. Sholder <kevin.sholder@ncr.com> There is a web site that probably has the best information available on the date of the changeover from the Julian to the Gregorian Calendar. I am sorry I can't recall the URL. You should be able to find it by going to Cyndi's List and then going to the section on Calendars and Dates: http://www.cyndislist.com/calendar.htm You should be able to find what you want by snooping around through some of the links, including the first one. There is also a link to a sit which discusses "Old Style" and "New Style," which in general is how the Julian and Gregorian calendars were referred to - although Old Style was also used to describe the system of double-dating which existed in Great Britain and her colonies until 2 Sep 1752. Regards, Richard "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com>

"Sholder, Kevin L" <KS100004@exchange.DAYTONOH.NCR.com> wrote: > Does anyone know if the GenKit application from 1995 has > been updated? > If so where can it be obtained? Kevin: To my knowledge, it has not. I first wrote GenKit in 1988 and it was updated in the 1990s by Ray Cox of Humble, Texas. (As computers got smarter my programming ability disappeared! <g>. Ray and I briefly discussed updating it, but so much of what is in GenKit is easily available online that it didn't seem worthwhile. GenKit, Version 2.0, a DOS Freeware program can be download at this site: http://www.coxsoftware.com/genutil.htm It was a neat little utility in its day - and I think it still has the easiest to use utility for finding the day of week for any specified date (he modestly said). One feature in GenKIt, BTW, is a list of when the changeover from Julian to Gregorian took place in various areas. I mention that because I just read a question asking for such information. Regards, Richard "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com>