"Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com> wrote: > > Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > Now if I could just afford/find something between the > > hypothesis that the family was still in Germany in <1840, and had > > made Ohio by 1845 (based upon the place of birth for two of the > > children). > [...] > A common migration path for German families was from PA to > Virginia's Shenandoah Valley, then to Ohio. That was a common migration path in the 18th century and very early 19th century, but by the 1840s Germans coming to Ohio were bypassing Virginia. Routes from PA included down the Ohio River or via the Great Lakes or overland. In fact, by that time some Germans were already starting to come up the Mississippi and Ohio rivers from New Orleans. Dave Dave Allen <twodorian@yahoo.com>

mglory@hutchtel.net wrote: > > > > Are these census errors and bad indexing in recent discussions > > > coming from errors in the original enumerations? Or, are some or > > > all being found only in incorrect transcriptions by ancestry.com? > > > Important distinction. > > > > > > John H Ballard <jballard@dslextreme.com> > > > > <snip> > > > > We also have to remember that all the indexers have to work with is > > microfilm - and a lot of that is not clearly legible. I sometimes > > look at a bunch of dim chicken scratches and marvel that the > > indexers got ANY of the letters right - and they had them all > > correct! > > > > "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com> > > As someone who has indexed a state census for just one county I want > to say that at some point the indexer has to make a decision if it > is a "P" or "B" or it would never be done. The hand writing on just > the one county census ran the course from --shall we say > ornate--to--unreadable scratches. I just had to say that. > > mglory@hutchtel.net Amen. Even the 1930 isn't a model of legibility. :( And, messing around with some 1850 census today, I offer up the following METHODS-y tips: Wise may be indexed as Urise, because in at least ONE instance that's what it looks like. Now, anyone doing this for himself would *assume* that a Urise in the midst of 8 WISE would more likely be WISE than Urise, but paid indexers are paid to think, they're paid to type. Likewise a LONG family's 3rd child was surnamed VONY or possibly VONG. a BULLITT family is probably indexed as BULLELL because the bar on the T is in the next box. A GEORGE family has a child whose surname is LEORGE ... I have no idea what the name UUmrl should be, but I'll bet it's NOT Uumrl Cheryl singhals@erols.com

> John H Ballard <jballard@dslextreme.com> wrote: > > > Are these census errors and bad indexing in recent discussions > > coming from errors in the original enumerations? Or, are some or > > all being found only in incorrect transcriptions by ancestry.com? > > Important distinction. > > > A few week back there was a whole series of loud complaints about > "lousy indexing" by Ancestry.com. In nearly every one of these > cases, the indexing was accurate - it was the way the name was > rendered in the enumeration that was the culprit. > > With regard to Ancestry's indexing: It has done only two censuses - > the 1920 and 1930. The other census indexes it uses are primarily > those created nearly 20 years ago by Accelerated Indexing Systems - > and these have plenty of indexing errors as they were done in SE > Asia with cheap labor. > > And when we talk about "all these census errors" we need to keep in > mind that the ones that get posted here are the ones people are > having problems with. Think of it this way: Ancestry.com supposedly > has a million subscribers (Wall Street Journal story). That means > there are likely many thousands of people searching census records > each day. If the enumerators and indexers are as bad as some seem > to think, there would be a torrent of messages seeking help instead > of the daily handful. > > And, as bad as we may think some of the indexes are, they are miles > better than the alternative - page by page searches through whole > counties (which is the way it used to be not so long ago!). > > We also have to remember that all the indexers have to work with is > microfilm - and a lot of that is not clearly legible. I sometimes > look at a bunch of dim chicken scratches and marvel that the > indexers got ANY of the letters right - and they had them all > correct! > > "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com> In the newsletter received from Ancestry.com today they announced an update to 1920 and 1930 census and indexes, correcting previous errors and improving the quality of some images. What a tremendous task they have undertaken to provide this service! My earlier comment was not a complaint, just a statement of fact, that if I couldn't find it on Ancestry.com I would go to Genealogy.com (FTM) and could usually find who I was looking for through their Index. Each system has it good points and I use both ... thankful they are available to us. Tempe ===== Tempe Berggren http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Oaks/6370 http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/b/e/r/Tempe-T-Berggren/ Tempe Berggren <tberggren@yahoo.com>

> Where can I find a blank "Family Tree" form that I can print out > and fill in by hand? > > "Lenny Abbey" LAbbey@mindspring.com You can find blank forms at almost all of the genealogy web sites. Only a few urls: Family search.org http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/RG/frameset_rhelps.asp?Page=./research/type/Form.asp&ActiveTab=Type http://www.familytreemagazine.com/forms/download.html http://www.pbs.org/kbyu/ancestors/charts/ I like this site's forms because they are available in a variety of formats: http://www.io.com/~jhaller/forms/forms.html "Glee" <gleemc@earthlink.net>

> Where can I find a blank "Family Tree" form that I can print out and > fill in by hand? > > "Lenny Abbey" <LAbbey@mindspring.com> Here is a site that advertises several forms in PDF format that you can download. http://www.pbs.org/kbyu/ancestors/charts/ Brian Kelly BE Kelly <bekelly@videotron.ca>

> I was wondering is there a easy and cheap way of finding if two > people are related without asking them? > > If anyone can help I would appreciated. Zeke Zeke: You didn't say how you think they are related, where they live, or how much you already know. Cheap and easy is always in the eye of the beholder. In some states, birth records are published online (free), listing the parents; you can search through mailing lists, home pages, published family trees online; you can request a Social Security Application (around $27) each; if they were born before the 1930 census, you can look at census records. You can order a birth certificate (fee). Why don't you provide more information about what you know, where they lived, and what is your idea of inexpensive and easy; you can receive a more specific response. Glee <gleemc@earthlink.net>

I am looking at Texas Birth records published online and have found under father's name: Do not issue. Does anyone know what this actually means??? I assume there was not an associated marriage, but I don't want to make that assumption <g> Glee <gleemc@earthlink.net>

Richard A. Pence fed this fish to the penguins: > The short answer is that an ahnentafel (from the German, > ahnen=ancestor and tafel=table - an ancestor table) is a list of > ancestors numbered beginning with the subject (your or a child) as > No. 1. The parents are 2 and 3, the grandparents are 4, 5, 6 and 7, > and so on. This is the same as the numbers used on most ancestor > charts. Or, what may help in clarifying (since you didn't identify which number went with which...) For any individual #x, the father is 2x, the mother is 2x+1 (grandparents would be: paternal grandfather is 2(2x), paternal grandmother is 2(2x)+1, maternal grandfather is 2(2x+1), maternal grandmother is 2(2x+1)+1...) -- > ============================================================== < > wlfraed@ix.netcom.com | Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG < > wulfraed@dm.net | Bestiaria Support Staff < > ============================================================== < > Bestiaria Home Page: http://www.beastie.dm.net/ < > Home Page: http://www.dm.net/~wulfraed/ <

Where can I find a blank "Family Tree" form that I can print out and fill in by hand? Thanks, Lenny "Lenny Abbey" <LAbbey@mindspring.com>

I was wondering is there a easy and cheap way of finding if two people are related without asking them? If anyone can help I would appreciated. Thanks, Zeke ------- End of Forwarded Message "zeke" <gt1991@excite.com>

> > Are these census errors and bad indexing in recent discussions > > coming from errors in the original enumerations? Or, are some or > > all being found only in incorrect transcriptions by ancestry.com? > > Important distinction. > > > > John H Ballard <jballard@dslextreme.com> > > <snip> > > We also have to remember that all the indexers have to work with is > microfilm - and a lot of that is not clearly legible. I sometimes > look at a bunch of dim chicken scratches and marvel that the > indexers got ANY of the letters right - and they had them all > correct! > > "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com> As someone who has indexed a state census for just one county I want to say that at some point the indexer has to make a decision if it is a "P" or "B" or it would never be done. The hand writing on just the one county census ran the course from --shall we say ornate--to--unreadable scratches. I just had to say that. mglory@hutchtel.net

I have also found that you have to do a page by page search. Sometimes they aren't in an index and only by searching yourself can you spot someone you are looking for. Pat "John Kantzer" <mkdoc@frognet.net>

John H Ballard <jballard@dslextreme.com> wrote: > Are these census errors and bad indexing in recent discussions > coming from errors in the original enumerations? Or, are some or > all being found only in incorrect transcriptions by ancestry.com? > Important distinction. A few week back there was a whole series of loud complaints about "lousy indexing" by Ancestry.com. In nearly every one of these cases, the indexing was accurate - it was the way the name was rendered in the enumeration that was the culprit. With regard to Ancestry's indexing: It has done only two censuses - the 1920 and 1930. The other census indexes it uses are primarily those created nearly 20 years ago by Accelerated Indexing Systems - and these have plenty of indexing errors as they were done in SE Asia with cheap labor. And when we talk about "all these census errors" we need to keep in mind that the ones that get posted here are the ones people are having problems with. Think of it this way: Ancestry.com supposedly has a million subscribers (Wall Street Journal story). That means there are likely many thousands of people searching census records each day. If the enumerators and indexers are as bad as some seem to think, there would be a torrent of messages seeking help instead of the daily handful. And, as bad as we may think some of the indexes are, they are miles better than the alternative - page by page searches through whole counties (which is the way it used to be not so long ago!). We also have to remember that all the indexers have to work with is microfilm - and a lot of that is not clearly legible. I sometimes look at a bunch of dim chicken scratches and marvel that the indexers got ANY of the letters right - and they had them all correct! Richard "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com>

Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > Now if I could just afford/find something between the > hypothesis that the family was still in Germany in <1840, and had > made Ohio by 1845 (based upon the place of birth for two of the > children). One way to try to determine when the family arrived in the U.S. is to find each of the children in the 1880 census, the first to give the birthplace of each person's parents. This should work for children born in Ohio post-1845. A common migration path for German families was from PA to Virginia's Shenandoah Valley, then to Ohio. There were Biebers in the Valley in the late 1700s and on - actually they were called Beaver mostly in Virginia. Another variation you need to keep in mind for German names is the B - P change and vice versa. It was primarily in the Shenandoah Valley were Bentz became Pence. Regards, Richard "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com>

> > In case some haven't run across this term, the Kekule Number is a > > term used in Europe and is the same as what is known in North > > America as the ahnentafel number or the Stradonitz number. > > > > Richard A. Pence <richardpence@pipeline.com> > > A few of us are so ignorant that we need the whole concept > explained. What is the application of these numbers, please? > > "Mike Rogers" <mike.rogers@mikerog.demon.co.uk> Mike: My article on "Numbering Systems In Genealogy" can be found here: http://www.saintclair.org/numbers/ It gives a full description on the Sosa-Stradonitz / ahnentafel / Kekule number system. The short answer is that an ahnentafel (from the German, ahnen=ancestor and tafel=table - an ancestor table) is a list of ancestors numbered beginning with the subject (your or a child) as No. 1. The parents are 2 and 3, the grandparents are 4, 5, 6 and 7, and so on. This is the same as the numbers used on most ancestor charts. Regards, Richard "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com>

> "Data" <bulldata.nospam@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > This is part of correspondence from Jack Crenshaw Grantham, Jr., a > > noted Dallas, Texas genealogist and professor, who researched the > > Creek, Cherokee and Sioux tribes for connections with the Bull > > family. > > I hate to ask. > > Relatives of the well-known Sitting, right? > > <vbg> > > "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com> Richard, does v.b.g. stand for "very bad goke" ? Sorry, I couldn't resist.

> I am trying to confirm the Death of Philip Livingston in 1981 (could > be off by a year?) in an automobile accident in the Dallas, Texas > area. I haven't been able to find any record of it. The SSN number > that I have doesn't show in the SSN death index, but maybe it or the > death index is inaccurate. It seems that Automobile fatalities of > non-minors should be listed somewhere else. Can anybody direct me? > Thank you > > Kay "introspectre" <introspectre@earthlink.net> Once the Social Security number search failed, you should have gone on to the name search. The SSDI at www.rootsweb.com lists only 16 Philip Livingstons, including a Philip Livingston b. 22 Jan 1949 died July 1981. There is a Social Security number listed, which you can compare with what you have. Maybe you are just off by a digit. His card was issued in Texas and a last benefit was sent to 79924 El Paso, TX. You should know if those data fit your person. Ernest Thode ernestthode@charter.net (Ernest Thode)

> I am trying to confirm the Death of Philip Livingston in 1981 (could > be off by a year?) in an automobile accident in the Dallas, Texas > area. I haven't been able to find any record of it. The SSN number > that I have doesn't show in the SSN death index, but maybe it or the > death index is inaccurate. It seems that Automobile fatalities of > non-minors should be listed somewhere else. Can anybody direct me? > > Kay "introspectre" <introspectre@earthlink.net> Ancestry.com lists Philip Lee Livingston's death on 25 July 1981 in Dallas County, TX. Ernest Thode

I wrote: > > introspectre wrote: > > > > I am trying to confirm the Death of Philip Livingston in 1981 (could > > be off by a year?) in an automobile accident in the Dallas, Texas > > area. I haven't been able to find any record of it. The SSN number > > that I have doesn't show in the SSN death index, but maybe it or the > > death index is inaccurate. It seems that Automobile fatalities of > > non-minors should be listed somewhere else. Can anybody direct me? > > Thank you > > > > Where have you looked for a death record? Have you asked City of > Houston. County of Harris or State of Texas, whichever jurisdiction has > death records for a death record? Sorry, I should have said Dallas and Dallas County. bob gillis bob gillis <rpgillis@bellatlantic.net>

introspectre wrote: > > I am trying to confirm the Death of Philip Livingston in 1981 (could > be off by a year?) in an automobile accident in the Dallas, Texas > area. I haven't been able to find any record of it. The SSN number > that I have doesn't show in the SSN death index, but maybe it or the > death index is inaccurate. It seems that Automobile fatalities of > non-minors should be listed somewhere else. Can anybody direct me? Where have you looked for a death record? Have you asked City of Houston, County of Harris, or State of Texas, whichever jurisdiction has death records for a death record? bob gillis bob gillis <rpgillis@bellatlantic.net>