As a lawyer, I am going to side with Richard and the other Joan. The documents we are talking about are legal documents: wills and other probate records, marriage consents filed with the state, and so on. For these documents one must apply the legal definition. The be all and end all of legal definitions is Black's Law Dictionary. This was quoted in full in a previous post. Basically it says intermarriage is equal to our modern definition of marriage without any subplots. If the word is used in a lay or social sense then it may take on the other connotations given in the various other posts. Joan Best "Joan Best" <joanbest1@earthlink.net>

> > Bottom line here is that I am suggesting that they used the term > > "intermarry" so as to reflect all the broader implications of a > > marriage. > > > > robheil@attbi.com > >I have the SAME dictionary, only the 1966 revision. My revision has >multiple definitions of "intermarriage." The first definition given >is: "to marry each other." Simple as that. I'm sure people >sometimes use the word to mean something more specific but that >isn't the most widely used definition--which is simply "to marry >each other." > >Joan <JYoung6180@aol.com> I have used 'intermarry' to indicate that several members of one family married members of another family thus making the relationships in more than one way such as "double cousins" such as brothers marrying sisters in another family!!!

carrie1@attglobal.net writes: > IEUAN ap LLEWELYN and JONET > verch CYNFYN. Carrie- "Ap" is Welsh for "son of" and "verch" or "ferch" is daughter of. Joan JYoung6180@aol.com

> I have a question about a couple of word definitions. I downloaded > a gedcom last night with a list of names from 1250 and earlier. At > a certain point, the names changed to Old English and there is where > my question lies. The men's names all have the word ap between the > first and last names (although the last names in some cases look > like first names), and all the women's names have the word verch > between the first and last names- i.e.; IEUAN ap LLEWELYN and JONET > verch CYNFYN. I am assuming that these words mean "son of" and > "daughter of", but I would like a better informed opinion, if > possible. Does anyone out there know what these two words mean? > > Carrie Marsh <carrie1@attglobal.net> You are correct in your thinking. When naming started one name was all they had so to distingish it became NAME SON OF NAME or NAME AP NAME or Johnson or Johnsdatter or Name Verch Name. Actually it was a good way as you always knew the fathers name that way. Deana Smith "Dora Smith" <deanae@alltel.net>

> I have a question about a couple of word definitions. I downloaded > a gedcom last night with a list of names from 1250 and earlier. At > a certain point, the names changed to Old English and there is > where > my question lies. The men's names all have the word ap between the > first and last names (although the last names in some cases look > like first names), and all the women's names have the word verch > between the first and last names- i.e.; IEUAN ap LLEWELYN and JONET > verch CYNFYN. I am assuming that these words mean "son of" and > "daughter of", but I would like a better informed opinion, if > possible. Does anyone out there know what these two words mean? > > Carrie Marsh <carrie1@attglobal.net> Hi, Doing a quick Google of ap, verch, and meaning, I got back this site: http://www.llgc.org.uk/ht/ht_s005.htm on preparing for your visit, to the National Library of Wales, archival research. Cool! Thanks for posting your question, I am of Welsh descent, and this site will definitely be a help. I would not have found it without your query. To answer your question, you are right about ap & verch and their meanings, but this site has further info. I copied the text below, so you would have more than my fleeting knowledge of Gaelic to go on: >>>One fundamental difference between the two countries is the use of patronymics in Wales as opposed to fixed surnames in England. Examples of this system are Griffith Lewis, son of Lewis John William, and Harry David, son of David John Rees, both witnesses to a grant of properties in the parish of Llandeilo Fawr, Carmarthenshire, in 1683. Similarly, the marriages of Thomas Morris and Elizabeth Morris, spinster, the son and daughter of Morris Thomas, farmer, are recorded in the parish register of Llansilin, Denbighshire, exactly a century later. In its earlier form, the naming system usually included ab or ap (meaning son of) or ferch (often written verch, meaning daughter of) e.g. the baptism of Elin verch William ap Llywelyn in Llandegfan, co. Anglesey, in 1599. <<< It has lots of other nifty info, too. Happy digging! Jane Hodges-Kuebler Maria Kelley <mariakjek@juno.com>

AMREINKR@aol.com wrote: >I am having a problem discovering the origin of my great- >grandfather, Joseph Kwiatkowski. He was born in Germany on February >24, 1867 and supposedly immigrated to the US on January 13, 1892. I >have his Naturalization Papers and they state that he was born in a >town named Blato or Bilato, Germany. > >For two years I have searched for this town and have come to the >conclusion that the spelling on his Naturalization papers was a >phonetic spelling by the interviewer. There are many sound-alikes >in both Germany and Poland, but I have no idea which would be the >correct town. Kwiatkowski is definitively a Polish name, but I suppose you already know that. During the time your grandfather was born, a part of poland was under the German occupation. And my bet is, that the city he was born in was on the territory of Poland. There is no such word as 'Blato' or 'Bilato' in Polish. Also no places by that name, what you already know :) But what if the 'a' letter was in fact an 'o'? This would make 'Bloto' and this sounds like the polish word 'B³oto' (means 'mud' :) and there are two towns by that name in Poland. One is visible here: http://www.pilot.pl/index.php3?Z_CITY_NAME=b%B3oto&form_t=1&lang=pl the other at the lat 51.05, long 20.82. Hope this helps somehow... -- Michael Paluchowski http://www.nethut.pl/gen/ researching: P*a*l*u*c*h*o*w*s*k*i, R*o*m*a*n*o*w*s*k*i, P*u*d*l*o*w*s*k*i, W*e*c*l*a*w*o*w*i*c*z Michael Paluchowski <paluchowski@nospam.post.pl>

robheil@attbi.com writes: > Bottom line here is that I am suggesting that they used the term > "intermarry" so as to reflect all the broader implications of a > marriage. Bob- I have the SAME dictionary, only the 1966 revision. My revision has multiple definitions of "intermarriage." The first definition given is: "to marry each other." Simple as that. I'm sure people sometimes use the word to mean something more specific but that isn't the most widely used definition--which is simply "to marry each other." Joan JYoung6180@aol.com

> I have a question about a couple of word definitions. I downloaded > a gedcom last night with a list of names from 1250 and earlier. At > a certain point, the names changed to Old English and there is where > my question lies. The men's names all have the word ap between the > first and last names (although the last names in some cases look > like first names), and all the women's names have the word verch > between the first and last names- i.e.; IEUAN ap LLEWELYN and JONET > verch CYNFYN. I am assuming that these words mean "son of" and > "daughter of", but I would like a better informed opinion, if > possible. Does anyone out there know what these two words mean? > > Carrie Marsh <carrie1@attglobal.net> Try: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~randyj2222/gendict.html for those definitions. HTH Bob Robert Heiling <robheil@attbi.com>

I am sorry for the length of this message, but I have come across a problem with the ancestry census images. One of us has gone haywire, and I'm not willing to admit it's me! Someone looked up my ancestor and gave me the location in the 1910 census. I went to the ancestry site, and found him. Another ancestor was not found in the index, however, this same census district had his street, so I decided to read through all of it. I found some of the pages from this district were missing. Scrolling through the ED, I noticed that this district included pages for other districts, and some pages for my district were missing. I made a list of the census page numbers 1a,1b, 2a, 2b etc, and marked the image # where they could be found, in an effort to see which pages were missing. When I started this project, I noted that there were about a dozen pages from a different district [ED 177] appearing here and there, and I wrote them all down also. When I went back to double check, these image #'s now refer to different pages of the census - at the moment they are all in ED 176 - some still missing, some duplicates. I am looking at ED 176 for 1910 Providence RI, The missing street numbers seem to be between 113-138, 140-142, 144-210 Langdon St - I'm looking for 189 Langdon. What in the world is going on? Lisa llepore@juno.com

This "thread" seems to have evolved into multiple subject headers which makes it more difficult to follow, so I'll just respond here to the original query. > Hi - In some of the early marriage records in Kentucky (1800-1860), > it shows the word intermarriage between the two persons. Exactly > what did that mean in that time period - does anyone know? > > Thanks, Lorraine. <Landmoffat@aol.com> Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary ©1953 says: intermarry: To become connected by marriage between their members; - said of families, ranks, castes, etc - noun intermarriage. (and to the etc., I would add the ones that I mentioned previously of religious, ethnic, or racial backgrounds) The Blackburn quote is along similar lines. So although marriage itself was a necessary component of this, it is not a simple case of intermarry=marry as intermarriage has broader implications in terms of families (and the groups they belonged to) etc. The marriage partners became members of each other's respective families upon marriage and, with the coming of children, there were grandchildren, nieces, nephews, etc shared by both. families. The families themselves would also tend to merge socially. These are all aspects that needed to be looked at and analyzed in advance of any marriage and would have been part of the "intermarriage" aspect.. It was a concern of parents that their children marry into the *right* family. There is/was a reason for the consent laws. That being so that the parents could make certain that the right decision was being made. Of course, you'll only find the consent to intermarry in the required legal documents. If legal permission was not required because of age, the parents still could consent/approve or disapprove and enforce that with threats of disinheritance etc. A rich family might look suspiciously upon a marriage partner from a poorer family as perhaps being after the money or it might be an issue of political power for other families. Bottom line here is that I am suggesting that they used the term "intermarry" so as to reflect all the broader implications of a marriage. Bob ps: Just sitting here waiting for someone to say: "what if they were both orphans"<g> Robert Heiling <robheil@attbi.com>

> > http://www.avotaynu.com/ellis.html > > > > for your Ellis Island search? > > bob gillis > > Bob, > > I tried the web site you suggested and it could not be found. Any > suggestions? > > Jeanette <donette@means.net> Jeanette - It's at: http://www.stevemorse.org/ now, although there is probably a link somewhere on the avotaynu pages. Lisa llepore@juno.com

> I am 22 years young and I have been told that my last name isn't > what it is. I haven't got much information cause nobody seems to > know or willing to talk, but is there a way that I can work back > from the name I have now to find what it was originally? I think it > is kind of a stretch, but shouldn't it be registered with the > government when it was changed? I have no idea what I am talking > about, so any help on researching and what not would be greatly > appreciated. > > tsting321@yahoo.com (Stinger) You need to give us more information - like what is the name, and what area of the country did they settle in. What nationality are we talking about - often names evolved because of pronounciation or they were actually translated into English. It's possible this name change could have been officially recorded, but probably not.... Go to the library and get some how to genealogy books. When you find the one you like, buy it for reference at home. Join the Gen-newbie list at rootsweb.com As with any genealogy project, you need to start at the begining - start with yourself and work backwards. Get your parent's Birth/Marriage/Death certificates, then back to the previous generation. You might see this name change on one of these certificates. If you have more information, please post it here so we have something to go on. Lisa llepore@juno.com

Hi list, I have a question about a couple of word definitions. I downloaded a gedcom last night with a list of names from 1250 and earlier. At a certain point, the names changed to Old English and there is where my question lies. The men's names all have the word ap between the first and last names (although the last names in some cases look like first names), and all the women's names have the word verch between the first and last names- i.e.; IEUAN ap LLEWELYN and JONET verch CYNFYN. I am assuming that these words mean "son of" and "daughter of", but I would like a better informed opinion, if possible. Does anyone out there know what these two words mean? Thanks for any suggestions, Carrie in Colorado Carrie Marsh <carrie1@attglobal.net>

> > http://www.avotaynu.com/ellis.html > > > > for your Ellis Island search? It is much better and more flexible > > than the main web site. > > > > bob gillis > > Bob, > > I tried the web site you suggested and it could not be found. Any > suggestions? > > Jeanette <donette@means.net> Try: http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/eidb/ellis.html HTH Bob Robert Heiling <robheil@attbi.com>

> > > In an old (1934) family letter there is reference to "Uncle Wicta". > > > It is written quite legibly, but it certainly seems like an unusual > > > first name. So I'm wondering if it is right, or if I'm mis-reading > > > it somehow. If not actually 'Wicta" what could it be, or is it some > > > kind of nickname? > > > > > > "Uncle Wicta" was born Abt 1820 and came from Prussia Bef 1850. > > > > > > jsents@stny.rr.com (John Sents) > > > > It's certainly not a common name, but is a name in its own right and > > has some spelling variations. See: > > > > http://www.cyberstudia.com/ogmios/texts/simpson/catstane/catstane.html > > > > for some information. > > > > Robert Heiling <robheil@attbi.com> > > Do you know how some people get nicknames given by children learning > to talk? Perhaps this is a child learning to call someone Uncle > Victor and hasn't learned to say his "v's" and "r's" well? That > would certainly account for Wicta. People carry those nicknames all > their lives to the exasperation of other family members.....! > (Usually the kid that gave them!) ;) > > "Amie Peoples" <hismsg@cros.net> It's difficult for me to understand how people can gives answers that involve the way little kids might talk when a serious genealogy question had been asked. Wicta is a given name that was used in Prussia. The person who asked the original question can be quite confident that Wicta was the correct given name. Bob Robert Heiling <robheil@attbi.com>

The Census Indices provided by Heritage Quest/ProQuest includes mostly heads of households; i.e. every name* except* wives and unmarried children living with the husband/father/head of the household. It individually lists older parents living with their children (not sure if mother is listed when father is there, but she usually is listed when he's not), adult siblings of head sharing same household, foster children, servants, boarders...basically anyone who isn't part of the nuclear family of the head of household...(husband, wife, & children)...or perhaps a wife or child of another person indexed separately in the household. For example, when 2 complete nuclear families share the same dwelling space, whether they have the same surname or not, both heads are usually indexed, but not the wives and children. Heritage Quest Online is only a subscriber service for 'professional' institutions, such as libraries (free for you if you find a library with it). It may also be accessible from your home computer by signing on with your library card through your library website, if your library has it set up for remote access. Check with your library and work on them to get it. They haven't finished indexing the 1920 or 1930 census, but I've encountered far fewer mistakes in Heritage Quest than in the other two, and it offers all the census images. It also has over 25,000 family and local history books available online. genmail@1st.net

> > Was just fortunate enough to find a will written in 1888.....in > > German and in script so I can't even make out majority of individual > > letters to send to any of the on-line translation services. > > You'll probably be reading a lot more German script if you are just > back to 1888 and are already finding it. You may want to teach > yourself to decipher what will no doubt be the first of many such > documents you'll need to read as you work your way back in your > family history. > > This book was immensely helpful to me: "If I Can, You Can Decipher > Germanic Records", by Edna Bentz. It's a small, home-made spiral > bound book and sells for about $12. > > Halltall@aol.com Actually, I believe the price is $16.50 but there is a better book for learning to read old script that you can get for the time it takes to download it. It is "A Genealogical Handbook of German Research" by Larry Jensen. There are 3 chapters that give you a method for learning the script rather than having to compare everything to a list of sample alphabets. You will be doing some of that of course but regardless of how many alphabets you collect there will always be some unreadable words. Ever try reading your doctor's prescription? You do not have to know the language to transcribe it. Of course some knowledge is helpful as you can make and educated guess when you cannot read every letter in a word but you can still manage quite well with practice. Go to: http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/search/RG/frameset_rhelps.asp Click on G in the alphabet at the top of the page and then scroll down to Germany. You can download a PDF file and print out the parts you wish. It is easier to find someone that can translate it once you have transcribed it than it is to find someone that can read the script. Also once it is transcribed you can post it or send it by email to get help in translating. Try it, you may even find you enjoy it. Good luck, Celia "Celia Mitschelen" <cmitsch@ix.netcom.com>

Landmoffat@aol.com writes: > I have found the term on Civil War > Pension files as late as 1900, where the individual says they were > widowed, not had not "intermarried" with anyone else. Lorraine- You have further proven the point Richard and I were making--because you cannot specify a specific group into which you have NOT yet married--it has to be a general statement -- intermarried=married. Joan JYoung6180@aol.com

Randy, Have your Father check when in the screen of Kinship reports and click on "Contents" and make sure that he has the same amount of number of Generations to show for each person he is doing a Kinship report for? Sometimes these will change depending on the Ancestor or Descendant that you are doing a Kinship for. Just my 2 cents worth. Hope this helps you in someway. Join Now! Subscribe: KYHeritageFolklore-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Terry Thacker Doing genealogy is like writing OUR own family Bible. Our ancestors are the ones that have came to pass, and our descendants are the ones to fulfill it.

You can send text up to 40 lines transcribed from your original to trans@genealogienetz.de for a free translation by a volunteer. At the first line of your e-mail message, enter the code GER>ENG and provide a short (very short) intro and your name. (These intro lines are also counted in the limit of 40 lines, but it is nice to have the name of a person to send the translation to.) Your text should be clearly part of a genealogical record, and translations are provided at the volunteers' discretion. If your original document has more than 40 lines, you can break the text between two e-mails, but the requests will probably go to different translators, with some differences in quality and word choice. Thomas Kohn (also a volunteer with Genealogy Net translation service) Tgkohn@aol.com