bob gillis wrote: > > "Richard A. Pence" wrote: > > > > I am not quite sure, either, how you are using the FamilySearch 1880 > > listings. The LDS 1880 census material is an index and is not a > > "source document." > > Richard, it is a transcription and not just an index. It contains > the same information as the 1880 Census CDs as do the 1881 Canadian > and British Census. To the extent that most of what's on the LDS CD (and on line there) *IS* what's on the census, you're right. However, there is a great deal more on the census record than is indexed by the LDS. And regardless of whether it has the identical information, it remains NOT the original source document. Cheryl singhals@erols.com

Patscga@aol.com wrote: :> jonesn8@attbi.com writes: :> :> > What types of records should I search to find an eighteen year old :> > single male? :> :> I'm afraid I don't understand your problem. Why do you need to know :> where he was living when he was 18 years old? Why not? If you don't find a direct ancestor in a census, aren't you the least bit curious? Is there some reason why we should NOT care to learn all the details that are available about the lives of our ancestors? = Steve = -- Steve W. Jackson Montgomery, Alabama "Steve W. Jackson" <stevewjackson@charter.net>

Hello, I have recently joined the Haralson County Historical Society, Buchanan, GA. I have been working some in the old county records room in the old courthouse. If someone needs something looked up I'd be happy to give it a shot. The records I recall seeing seem to be from the 1950's back. Many have been cataloged a few years ago by some visiting missionaries from LDS. I do have a couple of questions. In organizing the records, is there a recommended system or format? And as to the reference books, are they done by the Dewey Decimal System? I found that some are marked 11.1 ( Civil War) ? Also, the Historical Society has compiled a Haralson County Cemetery Index book. It will be going to the printers soon. Would anyone be interested in a copy when they are published? I am guessing that the cost will be in the neighborhood of $30 - $40 plus shipping. Naomi Lee (S.m.i.t.h - MI) (M.o.r.r.i.s.o.n -TN) (C.a.r.d.e.r - GA) (B.l.a.c.k - SC, NM) Naomah <nooner@mindspring.com>

Information that may be of use to someone.......always willing to provide U.S. Fighting Naval Ship History to anyone. The ALBEMARLE: A confederate IRONCLAD RAM, built on the Roanoke River, North Carolina. Made partly from scrap materials because of supply difficulties during the AMERICAN CIVIL WAR, 1861-1865, she entered service in April 1864. The ALBEMARLE had a shallow draft, which increased her ability to evade enemy warships. The ALBEMARLE was 152 feet in length, 34 feet in the beam and was equipped with two 6.4 inch Brooke guns, which were cast-iron rifled weapons. Her contribution to the naval side of the war was to be notable but shortlived. She was soon involved in a successful Confederate combined operation against the Union naval base at Plymouth, North Carolina, on April 19, 1864. The ALBEMARLE sank the U.S.S. Southfield and forced several other Union warships to leave the area. On May 5 she attacked and dispersed a squadron of eight Union gunboats, suffering slight damage herself. The end came dramatically on October 28, 1864, during the hours of darkness, when a modified launch, commanded by Lieutenant Willian B. Cushing, attacked the ALBEMARLE at Plymouth with a Spar Torpedo and sank her quickly. I wish you well Bud "Bud Shortridge" <cshortridge@comcast.net>

> >Can anyone tell us when U.S. Social Security came into being? > > > >Bunny Turner <bunnypat@eastlink.ca> > >Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada > > > 1935 > fsuedu Thanks to everyone who has been so helpful with this question. I was helping a neighbor with some family history and she is just beginning what looks like a long long trip. Her parents and grandparents were born in the US in the Buffalo area and we did find some of her relatives listed in the Social Security lists. However there were others that we did not find and then began to wonder if they were not there because the Social Security had not yet begun, which I think is our answer. She was married in this same area of NY and we couldn't find her marriage on any of the other lists that we found. She is going to keep at it for now and we will see what she finds. Thanks again to everyone who helped and I have lots of good tips now to follow up as well. This is such a worthwhile listserve for me, who is relatively new to searching, via the computer and various systems, for more family history. Bunny Turner Nova Scotia bunnypat@eastlink.ca

>>>I think at the time in question, the citizenship followed the >>>husband's, at least in the US. I know that when my grandmother >>>married my grandfather in the 30s, she lost her US citizenship and >>>became a Canadian citizen, even though she, and all her ancestors >>>for several generations prior, had been born in the US. She was >>>naturalized when my grandfather was. >>> >>>Susie B <susie314b+nanae@justREMOVEtheCAPS.net.invalid> >>> >>As you say, might be the year in question, but I've never heard of >>losing your U.S. citizenship when marrying a citizen of another >>country. But I could be wrong. It was Canadian Law, at least in >>the 1930s that stated that when a Canadian married a citizen of >>another country, they lost their Canadian citizenship and were >>considered a citizen of the spouse's country. Problem was, that in >>the 1930s, the U.S. did not recognize this law. In 1932, my mother, >>a Canadian, by Canadian law, was considered a U.S. citizen. The >>U.S. did not. She had to obtain a special authorization from the >>U.S. Consulate in Canada to accompany my father into the U.S. She's >>93, and still has her "green card". >> >>Andy Romano <romanoa@sdc.cox.net> > >Hi. Sorry, my grandmother married in 1915. This will teach me to >post when I am tired. Just checked the photocopies. She was >naturalized a US citizen in 1932 and my grandfather was naturalized >in 1934. My grandfather came to the States when he was 4 and of >course my grandmother was born here. > >Susie B <susie314b+nanae@justREMOVEtheCAPS.net.invalid> Hi there, My mother was born an American (Iowa) and moved to Canada when she married my father in 1927.. She was told that as long as she did not vote in Canada that she could maintain her American Citizenship. She never voted and she travelled all of her life on a US passport, which I have. She applied for and received her last passport just before she died at age 91+. She always told people that she maintained her citizenship in case my father ever wanted to move to the US as it would then have been comparatively easy for them to do so. When I was b. in 1928 I was considered a Canadian by the US government. When my brother was born in 1931 he was considered to be partly American and would have to decide before a certain age. I think he had to live 5 years between the ages of 16-21 years. My brother attended US colleges (Antioch and MIT) but did not become an US citizen at that time. Recently he applied to be a dual citizen. Now he and all of his 4 children and 10 grandchildren hold this distinction. This was possible because Mother was an American. When my sister was born in 1942 she was considered an American but would have to live in the US for a certain amount of time before she was a certain age.. She became a full US citizen after attending college in the US. She travelled with Mother when she was little, and her picture with mother was on Mother's passport. I have no idea what happened to people going from Canada to the US, but that is how it was coming this way for a woman American citizen in 1927. Bunny Turner Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada bunnypat@eastlink.ca

> All that will tell you is that there is (or once was) a person > sharing Your surname who bore arms. Suppose your name were "Jones"; > it wouldn't be very significant to learn that there was once an > English armiger named "Jones". Wouldn't he have been more likely of Welsh origin? ;) -- Mick Gurling CT USA "Mick Gurling" <No.Spam.mickg@toto.com>

I have a situation where I have found a gg grandfather and family in the 1880 census but then he and his wife have disappeared by the time of the 1900 census. Since he was born in the 1830's, I am assuming he and his wife died during that 20 year period. Should I try to narrow the dates down further or should I write to the county asking for a death record based on a 20 year window? Frank Cullison "Frank Cullison" <fcullison@yahoo.com>

"Ron Recer" <ron48@aol.common> wrote: > It is my understanding that many/most individuals who died before a > certain date (can't remember the date, but think it was early 1960s) > are not shown on the automated index. Ron, the SSA began computerizing its master death index in October of 1962. It appears that they did enter all (or most) of the deaths reported to it earlier that year. At one time an effort was being made to enter deaths from previous years, but that came to a screeching halt with budget deficits. I think I red that far less than 1 percent of the SSDI are for deaths prior to 1962. Regards, Richard "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com>

> one word missing is FOLIO > > a FOLIO in archive speak is a single sheet of paper. > > the recto or front is page one > > the back or (re) verso is page 2 > > <snip> > > "Hugh Watkins" <hugh_watkins@net.dialog.dk> Hugh, thanks for the addition of the word "folio," which is the "front and back" I was talking about. It is a printing term, rather than "archives-speak." I assume there is a point to the rest of your message, but since you have declared that I am both stupid and undoubtedly suffer from Alzheimer's, that must be the reason I fail to see what connection it has to census page numbering. Perhaps you can send me an email explanations it. Richard "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com>

> > <snip> > > > > I am not quite sure, either, how you are using the FamilySearch 1880 > > listings. The LDS 1880 census material is an index and is not a > > "source document." > > > > "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com> > > Oh, it's more than an index! > > <snip> > > "Austin W. Spencer" <AustinWSpencer@sdc.cox.net> Dear Austin: The LDS 1880 database is an excellent information source. And it will do more than just help you find someone on the microfilms. But my point was that you shouldn't rely on it as the source of your information for you genealogy or cite it as the source unless the original is quite unavailable to you. Even the LDS "finding aid" has errors. And, as I noted in my message to Bob Gillis, it is hardly a complete transcription of the census records. Surely if you are using the census for information for your ancestors, you will want to at least be aware of all of the other things in the census record that are not in the INDEX. The ability to see who the neighbors are quickly is a helpful feature, but neither new nor unique. The first census indexes on CD were Head of Household indexes. Using the old Genealogy Research System DOS software you could easily see who the neighbors are. The Indiana Historical Society indexed the entire 1860 census of that state and you can view it in several different ways, including household order. This project included not only every name, but every item included about each person in the census. The Society does NOT call this a transcription, but an INDEX. Here's a tip with regard to your following comment: > If your ancestor lived in a large urban > area in 1880, transferring from LDS to one of these requires > entering the LDS film number to see which EDs are on that film, then > checking each ED for the appropriate page, Since each page number will appear only once on each microfilm, you can usually quickly find the page by either estimating its location or calculating it. The other night I was looking for someone in NYC who was on page 264 of a given roll which contained EDs 69 - 88. I guessed that page 264 was in ED 83, but was one too high - it was in ED 82. Once the images for ED 82 were loaded (at Ancestry.com), it was easy to do the calculation to reach page 264 on the first or second try. (I outlined for someone the entire process for finding someone at Ancestry.com from the info at Ancestry.com and if anyone would like a copy of that message, drop me an email. "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com>

"bob gillis" <rpgillis@bellatlantic.net> wrote: > > "Richard A. Pence" wrote: > > > > I am not quite sure, either, how you are using the FamilySearch 1880 > > listings. The LDS 1880 census material is an index and is not a > > "source document." > > Richard, it is a transcription and not just an index. It contains > the same information as the 1880 Census CDs as do the > 1881 Canadian and British Census. Bob: I know nothing of the Canadian and British censuses as any ancestors I had in either place pre-date the census records. However, if you believe that the LDS 1880 U.S. Census *Index* (and a fine one it is) is a "transcription," you might want to look at one of the images and compare it with the LDS index extraction. It doesn't contain "the same information as the 1880 Census CDs" (I assume you mean the image CDs taken from the microfilms); it contains only a fraction of it. The 1880 U.S. Census contains 26 specific items; of these, only 8 are in the :DS index. The two lists are below my signature. Richard 1. Dwelling houses numbered in order of visitation. 2. Families numbered in order of visitation. 3. The name of every person whose place of abode on the 1st day of June, 1880, was in this family. Personal description: 4. Color: White, W; black, B; Mulatto, Mu; Chinese, C; Indian, I. 5. Sex: Males (M), females (F) 6. Age at last birthday prior to June 1, 1880. If under 1 year, give months in fractions, thus, 3/12. 7. If born within the census year, give the month. 8. Relationship of each person to the head of this family whether wife, son, daughter, servant, boarder, or other. Civil condition: 9. Single. 10. Married. 11. Widowed; divorced. 12. Married during census year. Occupation: 13. Profession, occupation, or trade of each male, male or female. 14. Number of months this person has been unemployed during the census year. Health: 15. Is the person (on the day of the enumerator's visit) sick or temporarily disabled, so as to be unable to attend to ordinary business or duties? Is so, what is the sickness or disability? 16. Blind. 17. Deaf and dumb. 18. Idiotic. 19. Insane. 20. Maimed, crippled, bedridden, or otherwise disabled. Education: 21. Attended school within the census year. 22. Can not read. 23. Can not write. Nativity: 24. Place of birth of this person, naming State or Territory of United States, or the country, if of foreign birth. 25. Place of birth of the father of this person, naming State or Territory of United States, or the country, if of foreign birth 26. Place of birth of the mother of this person, naming State or Territory of United States, or the country, if of foreign birth Of these 26 pieces of information, the LDS 1880 index includes only these eight: 3. Name 4. Color 5. Sex 6. Age 8. Relationship to HOH (Partial; those not members of the family are in a catch-all "other" category) 24. Place of birth 25. Place of birth of father 26. Place of birth of mother "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com>

> > > since i don't have a date of death or the location of the > > > presumed death of the father, only the name, is there anywhere > > > else to look? > > > His child was born in 1978 (the child died and her info is on the > ssdi). The information i have on him is from the child's obituary > of 2002. That's one of the reasons it seemed so strange. The > mother was born in 1961. Try the child's birth certificate. If you can't get a copy because of the concerns about stolen identity, at least you should be able to get the information from it. The people who submitted the obit may have had social reasons to lie about his death. I just heard from someone concerning my material on WorldConnect. A man left his wife and children in the late 1800s and started another family. His children from the first family were told that he was dead. Their descendants were surprised by the new-found info that he hadn't died when they thought. In your case a 17 year-old had a child that died. She was still a minor. Her parents probably published the obit. They may have lied about the father to save their daughter more grief. JB "Joan Best" <joanbest@earthlink.net>

> There's a lot that you could narrow down by getting birth, marriage > and death records for your family: > > <snip> > > Glee <gleemc@earthlink.net> Glee, Thanks for the suggestions. Someone else from the list, who was not so nice, and a Dr. Phil wannabe asked that I supply documentation so that others may help me, so I sent her and the list complete records on this family. You should be able to see my post soon. [ The post with complete records went out to USENET, but it was too large and was bounced by the GENMTD mailing list. I'll try to fix that later ... -Mod ] I appreciate the people who are nice about their reply's, I really do. I also understand that it is hard for people to know what work I have done without listing every single piece of documentation. Because of limited time and space, I only list what I think is important info, but evidentally, I need to learn how to make a proper post, or rude people need to stop making assumptions that I'm just doing my family genealogy on "family tales'. You can also visit my website at http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Meadows/2651/mindex.html Thanks again for being so nice, and for the suggestions. :-) Anne Sprentz Do you know who killed my father? JOHN SPRENTZ, murdered 1983 in Ecorse, Michigan.... see my website for further details. http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Meadows/2651/Unsolvedmurder.html asprentz@hotmail.com

"Richard A. Pence" wrote: > > I am not quite sure, either, how you are using the FamilySearch 1880 > listings. The LDS 1880 census material is an index and is not a > "source document." Richard, it is a transcription and not just an index. It contains the same information as the 1880 Census CDs as do the 1881 Canadian and British Census. bob gillis bob gillis <rpgillis@bellatlantic.net>

"Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com> wrote snip > > When you can see only one image at a time on your screen, as is the > case for the on-line census images, it is difficult to get a grasp > of how the pages are numbered. I've been doing some checking in the > 1880 census and here is how I think the number goes. > > Keep in mind these two words: Recto and Verso. A "recto" is a > right-hand page in a book. A "verso" is a left-hand page - the > opposite side of a recto page. > > Some time before the census volumes were microfilmed (in the 1940s?) > each page in each census volume was numbered using a stamp. Only > the recto pages were numbered; the verso pages are the "other side" > of whatever page number the recto is. snip one word missing is FOLIO a FOLIO in archive speak is a single sheet of paper. the recto or front is page one the back or (re) verso is page 2 on my hard disk I have C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\RG13 Downloads\Pontypool Jones Isaac Hewer\RG13_Pc-4944_Fo-79_Pg-28.tif an image RG13 this is the UK 1901 census RG12 is 1891 from the Public record office in Kew Pc-4944 Is a Piece or a package of papers If I get an original census delivered to me, ie in the reading room of the Danish National Archives 1916 and 1921 are not yet filmed, the assistant delivers 3 or 4 inch thick parcels of papers tied with string. I handle them with love and care remembering "NEVER DESTROY AN ORDER" Fo-79 Folio 79 is the seventy nineth sheet of paper in that pile out of (I guess) about 120 or so Pg-28 Page is even so it is the back of Folio 79 I feel priveleged you can believe that but in the end it is only the original documants which count ŽHugh W "Hugh Watkins" <hugh_watkins@net.dialog.dk>

> "fsuedu" <fsuedu@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > My G-Grandfather changed the spelling of his name from > > > Sutherland to Sutherlin and back again nearly yearly for a decade. > > > He also changed his residence frequently. Perhaps he was > > > staying one step ahead of the rent and/or bill collector. I dunno. > > > > i'm with sandra on this one...depends on the time period. and can > > be for any number of reasons....my great-great grandfather came to > > ny in the 1800's with documentation and a letter from the police > > "chief" in his hometown in germany (we still have this stuff), and > > lo and behold, when he got to ellis island, whoever filled out his > > forms just decided that his name was easier to pronouce if spelled > > another way and just changed it on the spot. if we didn't have > > those original documents, we'd be up a creek trying to go back to > > the german records.... > > Sandra and I have already had a conversation about her grandfather's > name changes. She ascribes a deeper motive to them than I do - I > think that they were merely random changes without special reason or > meaning, the result of carelessness, perhaps illiteracy or - in > particular - lack of any spelling standards. > > As for your belief that your great-great grandfather's name got > changed at Ellis Island, this is almost without doubt not the case. > "The Name Got Changed at Ellis Island" is one of the most prolific > myths in American genealogy. The fact is that elaborate measures > were taken to make sure that names were correctly rendered. > > Below are a some links to expert articles which will provide ample > documentation supporting my contention. > > <snip> > > "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com> And those who have heard author John P. Colletta lecture on immigration will recall his tale of the Italian who passed immigration in New York City under the name he was born with, and heady with the knowledge he was now safely in America, decided to change his name to something "not ethnic"...and from among the many signs on the main Street in NYC selected his All-American new name : Macy. Cheryl singhals@erols.com

On Tue, 22 Apr 2003, Singhals wrote: > It is tempting, oh-so tempting!, to list as a source for > great-grand's marriage something like > http://members.NASA.edu/web/web_page/this.html > and skip the wearisome step of VERIFYING the info in the real > records. > > The problem will arise (that's WILL, as in guaranteed) when, two, > six, eight months or a year from now when you try to go back to > http://members.NASA.edu/web/web_page/this.html > and get a 404- file not found, or a No DNS. No doubt about it, the vanishing URL will always be a problem on the web. You probably already know this, but the best solution is to not rely solely on the URL in your citations. Add more access points (to toss out a little library jargon). For example: Author or creator, title or name of record series, city, county state, name of agency that produced or published the records, etc. This is kinda like when people come in the library with just a call number ("I don't know what this is but I have to pick it up for my kid") and the call number is wrong. Sometimes we can figure it out, sometimes we can't. So that's why it's a good idea to know the author, title, subject matter, publisher, whatever. But you're probably well-acquainted with good citation styles. BTW, people are working on a solution, the Permanent Uniform Resource Locator. See: http://www.purl.org/ -=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=- Webmaster: Cynthia Van Ness, MLS -- roots@bfn.org Roots: The Buffalo NY Genealogy Forum -- http://www.bfn.org/~roots With obits, vital records, city directories & hundreds of local links

> I understand some site, not SSA!, has some SS-5 images up. Anyone > familiar with the URL? > > Cheryl Singhals <singhals@erols.com> Here is a site that has some, quite a few actually: http://www.idreamof.com/ss5/surnames_a-l.html Kimber For a listing of obituaries I have on hand for St. Joseph Cty, IN, visit: http://hometown.aol.com/k727h/index.html k727h@aol.com (Kimber)

> I believe with Word, instead of selecting "Paste" you can select > "Paste Special" and then double-click on the option to save as > "unformatted text" you can eliminate the steps for converting from > table to text and changing fonts. > > I am not quite sure, either, how you are using the FamilySearch 1880 > listings. The LDS 1880 census material is an index and is not a > "source document." > > "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com> Oh, it's more than an index! We may find it convenient to think of it as just an index if we have the ability to immediately cross-check the microfilm. And the microfilm is indeed greatly to be preferred: The LDS database omits some facts and disguises others. If a family was sufficiently well off to keep live-in help, the census taker would put "Servant" in the relationship column; the LDS database calls them "Other." What the LDS database can do that an every-name index cannot is give a preview of the associates that show themselves in response to your query. By examining them, you get a better idea which records pertain to your ancestry before you turn to the film reels or the online images. The database deviates from standards in one other respect. It keys citations to page number-letter (e. g., 234A) rather than the enumeration district (ED)-sheet style endorsed by the National Archives. It is also not the way the films *and* the online image collections are arranged. If your ancestor lived in a large urban area in 1880, transferring from LDS to one of these requires entering the LDS film number to see which EDs are on that film, then checking each ED for the appropriate page, Austin W. Spencer "Austin W. Spencer" <AustinWSpencer@sdc.cox.net>