It is simply identifying the occupations of the two men. William West is a cooper (pot maker I believe) John Waters is a turner (can't remember this one has to do with turning items during production) Julia FamRSearch@aol.com

> For the basic information on newsgroups, subscribe to > news.newusers.questions and read the regular information postings > there. > > Can someone else suggest a good guide to the ins and outs of mailing > lists? (I don't use them when I can avoid it). May I suggest this article: "Effective Use of Genealogy Newsgroups (and Mailing Lists)" It can be found here: http://www.pipeline.com/~richardpence/effect.htm For best results, one is advised to read through until the very end. Regards, Richard "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com>

> HI MY NAME IS DANIELLE HOFF THAT IS NOT MY MAIDEN NAME IT IS > DANIELLE CHARLOTTE SHANNON. MY MOTHER DID NOT PUT MY DAD'S NAME ON > MY BIRTH CERTIFICATE BECAUSE THEY WHERE MESSED UP ON LET US SAY > STUFF AT THE TIME. I WAS TOLD HE HAD HE HAD BEEN DISCHARGED FROM > THE VIETNAM WAR AND HIS MOTHER'S NAME IS, I THINK RUTH LA POINTE. > HIS FAMILY IS FROM CHICAPEE, MASS. THE OTHER THING I'VE BEEN TOLD > IS THAT HE'S HALF BLACKFOOT INDIAN. I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT HE DIED > OF A HEROIN OVERDOSE IN AN ALLEY IN SAN RAFAEL OVER TEN YAERS AGO. > BUT, I DONT KNOW IF HE WAS PICKED UP AS A JOHN DOE AND BURIED. HIS > NAME WAS, DANIEL GLEANIS THE LAST NAME I'M NOT SURE OF THE SPELLING > > DAMNEDHELL@aol.com You need to systematically look for information about your Dad's family: 1. Get his correct name.............. does your Mother or someone else in the family know how it is spelled? 2. Do you have access to his social security number? If yes, request his Social Security Application to get his date of birth and parents. For your information, rootsweb.com has the California Death index online (free) and the social security death index............. http://ssdi.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/ssdi.cgi http://vitals.rootsweb.com/ca/death/search.cgi 3. If you know 'for a fact' how and when he died, look for a death certificate. 4. Once you know his parents names, start looking for marriage records and census................. Doing genealogy research is a process, that involves finding one piece at a time................. few of us are lucky enough to have had it done for us prior to our own research; and often what you'll find 'already done' is full of errors. When I started, all I had was my grandmother's Bible, but I am systematically assembling the family: piece by piece. It's almost like looking for four leaf clovers as a kid, and how happy you are when you find some in the field. Once you get started, feel free to ask questions on this list. People will be glad to answer questions. "Glee" <gleemc@earthlink.net>

> <good discussion snipped> > > Your published sources are a good start, but it wouldn't hurt to > check and see how reliable the authors were! > > Lesley Robertson <l.a.robertson@tnw.tudelft.nl> You can't believe it even if it is engraved in stone! I have a case where three children in one family died within a few days of one another. Many things on the gravestones were wrong. The stones read as follows: "Allen Warnock b. May 5 1856, d. 1862 son of Emma and McClellan, twin of Nannie" (McClellan was Allen's brother, not his father) "Nannie Warnock, b. May 5 1856, d. 1862, dau. of Emma and William, twin of Allen" "McClellan Warnock, b. Oct 28 1861, d. 1862, son of Emma and William" Actually, there were no twins; Allen was b. May 4 1856 Nannie (Nancy Ann) was b. May 27 1858 McClellan was b. Oct 28 1861 (this was the only one that was correct) There was an epidemic that year in which many children died. We speculate that either the man who inscribed the gravestones was so overwhelmed by the task he just made some errors, or that the parents, grief stricken by this multiple loss, let someone else supply the information (or a combination of the two). Virginia "Virginia Beck" <ginia2@san.rr.com>

> > of April in the year of our Lord Christ one thousand > > seven hundred seventy and one between William WEST of Craven County > > and province aforsd. Cooper of the one part and John WATERS of the > > county and province aforsd. Turner of the other part---, etc. > > Could this be an old way of saying Grantee and Grantor? Since it > reads Cooper of one part and Turner of the other??? > > Linda <BANDGMETAL@aol.com> Actually, a cooper is a barrel maker.............. Here is one url for occupations: http://cpcug.org/user/jlacombe/terms.html

Singhals wrote: >.... decided to >change his name to something "not ethnic"... >... his All-American new name : >Macy. I worked (in England) with someone married to a man with a clearly non-English name. They changed the family name to an English surname (chosen from a telephone directory) in order to 1) help the children to feel like the others at school; 2) avoid having to spell the surname in shops. We pointed out (when she informed us after the deed-poll) that choosing a name such as Reed (Read, Reade) didn't help with reason 2. <grin> myths@ic24.net

> > > > I understand some site, not SSA!, has some SS-5 images up. Anyone > > > > familiar with the URL? > > > > > > > > Cheryl Singhals <singhals@erols.com> > > > > > > Here is a site that has some, quite a few actually: > > > > > > http://www.idreamof.com/ss5/surnames_a-l.html > > > > > > k727h@aol.com (Kimber) > > > > Now that is truly neat! I am inspired now to send for my great > > grandmother's form now. How long does it take? > > > > Roxanne Koelpin <r.koelpin@verizon.net> > > Those are abstracts of SS-5 information, not images. > > "Polly Held" <phheld@twcny.rr.com> The names are linked to the images. Elizabeth Richardson

HI MY NAME IS DANIELLE HOFF THAT IS NOT MY MAIDEN NAME IT IS DANIELLE CHARLOTTE SHANNON. MY MOTHER DID NOT PUT MY DAD'S NAME ON MY BIRTH CERTIFICATE BECAUSE THEY WHERE MESSED UP ON LET US SAY STUFF AT THE TIME. I WAS TOLD HE HAD HE HAD BEEN DISCHARGED FROM THE VIETNAM WAR AND HIS MOTHER'S NAME IS, I THINK RUTH LA POINTE. HIS FAMILY IS FROM CHICAPEE, MASS. THE OTHER THING I'VE BEEN TOLD IS THAT HE'S HALF BLACKFOOT INDIAN. I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT HE DIED OF A HEROIN OVERDOSE IN AN ALLEY IN SAN RAFAEL OVER TEN YAERS AGO. BUT, I DONT KNOW IF HE WAS PICKED UP AS A JOHN DOE AND BURIED. HIS NAME WAS, DANIEL GLEANIS THE LAST NAME I'M NOT SURE OF THE SPELLING DAMNEDHELL@aol.com

> When human beings get involved, it's never 100%. <g> > > Chris So true! One of my census records showed the mother's age as "11". Since she had children older than 11, this was an obvious error. When I looked up the original, she was listed below her husband, age 42, and the "11" turned out to be ditto marks under his age! Whoever copied the record had probably done dozens of them, was running on 'automatic' & just copied what was on the page without really thinking about it. Virginia "Virginia Beck" <ginia2@san.rr.com>

> I found something as well. My William Peoples was listed as > Willian. A typo that held me up for a great many months! > Amie One trick I've learned that has proved helpful many times: Write out the name you are looking for and have other family or friends do the same. Then look carefully at letters such as a,o,i,e,u,n,w,m and look at the height of the upper strokes on l, t and d. While at it, check on the d's - is the loop at the bottom fully closed on the upstroke or is there a space? In other words, could it be mistaken for cl instead of d? Do the same with the letter b - the loop does not always touch the upstroke. Examples: 1. Danbeck/Daubeck - write it out and you will see that someone who does not round the tops of their n's can very easily make this name look like Daubeck. 2. Stewart/Hewart - writing the capital S without an upstroke and a very short cross on the connected t and Stewart becomes Hewart! 3. Henley/Heuby- again n written with sharp tops instead of rounded and the swing of the l to the e as well as the space between the l-e-y written is such a way you would swear it was b-y! So get out your pens and pencils and play a bit before deciding your ancestor is not in the index. You will be amazed (and I hope amused) by what you will uncover. Beverly -- mailto:kngsldy@cableone.net Families are Forever!

"Marti Ford" <mford@moscow.com> wrote: > According to the published sources, X was the 3rd of 4 sons born to > Y & Z, after a string of girls all living. All three sons other > than X die before the age of 5. When the last of these sons dies, X > was 2 years old. > I have tombstone inscriptions of all three other sons. They agree > with the published birth/death dates. However, on the 4th son's > tombstone, he is identified as "the third son of Y&Z". (The first > two tombstones just say "son of ...") How old was X when he died? Were others of his generation still alive? With the other sons having died so young, if the info for his Memorial was given by children or grandchildren, then it's easy to see how one child could be missed out. > How much weight should I give this seeming descrepancy? Could the > tombstone possibly be interpreted as "the third son of Y&Z to > die"? What that sort of "ordering" ever a custom to anyone's > knowledge? I am new at this, and I would greatly appreciate any > help from more experienced hands. I think that it would be a good idea to try an verify all the info you have found, not just that on the (notoriously unreliable) memorials. As an illustration of why it's dangerous to rely on previously published material, I offer the description of a book extracted from the catalogue of one of my favourite booksellers, Benny Gillies http://www.bennygillies.co.uk/ "KNOWLES, GEORGE PARKER A GENEALOGICAL AND HERALDIC ACCOUNT OF THE COULTHARTS OF COULTHART AND COLLYN. TO WHICH ARE ADDED THE PEDIGREE OF SEVEN OTHER CONSIDERABLE FAMILIES ETC. WITH A GENEALOGICAL ACCOUNT OF THE ROSSES OF DALTON IN THE COUNTY OF DUMFRIES. Printed for private circulation, London 1855. frontis coat of arms, plus other arms in text, large folding pedigree, the whole work printed on vellum, one of 75 copies printed. (An elaborate and expensive hoax: The seven other considerable families never existed. The man who had it published was of uncertain origin. The man who is believed to have been his grandfather was a half witted small farmer known locally in Kells as 'Laird Cowtart'. The place and castle of Coulthart never existed and the arms were borrowed from the Essex family of Colt and others.[See The Ancestor vol iv pps 61-80, Jan 1903]. " Your published sources are a good start, but it wouldn't hurt to check and see how reliable the authors were! Lesley Robertson Lesley Robertson <l.a.robertson@tnw.tudelft.nl>

>From: "Polly Held" phheld@twcny.rr.com >Those are abstracts of SS-5 information, not images. Ummm...on my end they are images (pictures of the application for social security account number). They look authentic, just like the copies I have received, and every one is distinct in that they all seem to have different info and handwriting, etc... Can you explain what you mean by abstract vs image? I would consider what is on the first page, the index, to be an abstract, someone has typed out some of the information contained in the image, but when you click on the person's name, an image appears, at least it does on my end, and I don't consider that an image. Maybe I am getting my terms confused or something, or perhaps these "images" aren't the entire application, and only a portion of the original??? I would like to know more about your comment so I can understand better what you are saying. Thanks for clarifying Polly H! Kimber For a listing of obituaries I have on hand for St. Joseph Cty, IN, visit: http://hometown.aol.com/k727h/index.html k727h@aol.com (Kimber)

> I'm afraid I don't understand your problem. Why do you need to > know where he was living when he was 18 years old? I dunno, for me, I have to know everything! Where were they? What was the historical perspective? Economic conditions? I need to know every aspect of their lives to understand them. For that, I need to know where they were every year. Sandra SGordon817@aol.com

It is probably a scam. Very few families had the rights to a 'coat of Arms'. Before I learned this I had received 3 different 'coats'. Q1952@aol.com

"A Reader" <a.reader@nowhere.com> wrote: >[ Hi all. I've removed the poster's identity because they hadn't > intended this to be a public post, but I am posting their question > for everyone because responses are likely to be of interest to > many people. - Mod ] > >To the Moderator (for your eyes only), > >All these Root'sWeb Lists are very interesting, but very hard to >read. Is there a format to follow? IE start at the bottom and read >upward. That seems to be the only way I can make sense of them. > >I would like to contribute at times or make requests, but can't seem >to get a handle on the protcol. > >There seems to be only a few that seem to post all the time and are >sometime snippy with their answers. > >I have been able to harvest a few web sites and tidbits of >infromation, but seems like a lot of repeated info. > >Please give me suggestions on how to get the best out of these >lists. Thank you in advance for your assistance. A List Reader. There is a lot to be said, but I'll make a start. First, you need to distinguish between different forms of communication. Mailing lists are not the same thing as newsgroups, for instance. This is a moderated newsgroup, not a mailing list. [ Actually, Methods is *both* a USENET Newsgroup and a gatewayed RootsWeb mailing list. It has been both a newsgroup and a mailing list since its creation a decade or so ago ... -Mod ] Second, a lot depends on the software you use; whether you should be reading from the top or from the bottom depends on whether your mail/news software lists messages with the newest at the top (which I think is the default for Outlook Express) or at the bottom (which is the only way Agent will do it). For the basic information on newsgroups, subscribe to news.newusers.questions and read the regular information postings there. Can someone else suggest a good guide to the ins and outs of mailing lists? (I don't use them when I can avoid it). -- Don Aitken Don Aitken <don-aitken@freeuk.com>

"Marti Ford" <mford@moscow.com> wrote: > Ancestor X born in 1773 is considered to be the son of Y & Z based > on published histories in the 1800's. He certainly lived and > married alongside this family (but there were others of his surname > in the area). > > According to the published sources, X was the 3rd of 4 sons born to > Y & Z, after a string of girls all living. All three sons other > than X die before the age of 5. When the last of these sons dies, X > was 2 years old. > > I have tombstone inscriptions of all three other sons. They agree > with the published birth/death dates. However, on the 4th son's > tombstone, he is identified as "the third son of Y&Z". (The first > two tombstones just say "son of ...") > > How much weight should I give this seeming descrepancy? Could the > tombstone possibly be interpreted as "the third son of Y&Z to die"? > What that sort of "ordering" ever a custom to anyone's knowledge? Not that I have ever heard of. > I am new at this, and I would greatly appreciate any help from more > experienced hands. Bear in mind that the accuracy of the inscription can be no better than the knowledge of those who commissioned it. Very likely no-one was around who actually knew - or those who remembered he had brothers had simply forgotten how many. -- Don Aitken Don Aitken <don-aitken@freeuk.com>

A Reader wrote: > > [ Hi all. I've removed the poster's identity because they hadn't > intended this to be a public post, but I am posting their question > for everyone because responses are likely to be of interest to > many people. - Mod ] > > To the Moderator (for your eyes only), > > All these Root'sWeb Lists are very interesting, but very hard to > read. Is there a format to follow? IE start at the bottom and read > upward. That seems to be the only way I can make sense of them. > > I would like to contribute at times or make requests, but can't seem > to get a handle on the protcol. Hang out on the list(s) a week or so -- it looks like you already have. For the first day or two, read no post that has RE: in the Subject: line; after a bit of reading the new posts and the followups, it will make much more sense and the protocol will become fairly clear. Admit up front you're a newbie/newcomer/new poster, and even the grumpiest among us will try to be kind. (g) > There seems to be only a few that seem to post all the time and are > sometime snippy with their answers. > > I have been able to harvest a few web sites and tidbits of > information, but seems like a lot of repeated info. The second paragraph sort of explains the first, doncha think? I mean, it's a lot easier being civil the 3rd time you explain that Junior didn't always mean son of than it is the 103rd or 303rd time you explain it. > Please give me suggestions on how to get the best out of these > lists. Well, first off, NEVER suggest the Mod doesn't know computers (g) And second, don't moan about your Ancient P-100; it'll only set off the my-computer's-older'n'-yours thread. Cheryl Having a decent sort of day, so the snip is at a minimum. ;) singhals@erols.com

> of April in the year of our Lord Christ one thousand > seven hundred seventy and one between William WEST of Craven County > and province aforsd. Cooper of the one part and John WATERS of the > county and province aforsd. Turner of the other part---, etc. Could this be an old way of saying Grantee and Grantor? Since it reads Cooper of one part and Turner of the other??? Linda BANDGMETAL@aol.com

> Ancestor X born in 1773 is considered to be the son of Y & Z based > on published histories in the 1800's. He certainly lived and > married alongside this family (but there were others of his surname > in the area). > > According to the published sources, X was the 3rd of 4 sons born to > Y & Z, after a string of girls all living. All three sons other > than X die before the age of 5. When the last of these sons dies, X > was 2 years old. > > I have tombstone inscriptions of all three other sons. They agree > with the published birth/death dates. However, on the 4th son's > tombstone, he is identified as "the third son of Y&Z". (The first > two tombstones just say "son of ...") > > How much weight should I give this seeming descrepancy? Could the > tombstone possibly be interpreted as "the third son of Y&Z to die"? > What that sort of "ordering" ever a custom to anyone's knowledge? > > I am new at this, and I would greatly appreciate any help from more > experienced hands. > > Marti Ford mford@moscow.com In this case, determining the proper order of Y and Z's four sons requires recourse to other sources -- not just the printed genealogy but also dates and ages from all relevant tombstones, census data (Did Y and Z have only one younger male in their household in 1790?), and any available birth and christening dates. And perhaps other sources that I'm forgetting at the moment. If after exhaustive study you still think that the one called "third son" on the tombstone ought to have been called "fourth son," say so in your files -- but also give your reasoning for that conclusion from the evidence. It will be appreciated if you donate or publish your work. Austin W. Spencer "Austin W. Spencer" <AustinWSpencer@sdc.cox.net>

> That was generally true for many years. At this point, however, > practically all deaths get put in the SSA death master index. > First of all, most funeral homes automatically notify SSA (I have > read this is a requiremtnt but haven't been able to confirm it). > > Richard A. Pence <richardpence@pipeline.com> Unfortunately, in the last five years, five of our close family members have died in GA, MD, NY and PA. Each undertaker in each state did indeed forward death notice to SS. The specific SS branch is unknown to us. Fran powell@closecall.com