Gil Hardwick wrote: > > > > My philosophy has always been, "Leave no stone unturned". > > > > > > SGordon817@aol.com > > > > Early on, I found I had more stones than money. That being true, I > > had to pick and choose which stones I could pay to turn over. > > > > Singhals > > I quite like the philosophy of G.K. Chesterton myself, who observing > a man on a beach throwing pebbles at seagulls commented that he left > no tern unstoned. > > Gil Chesterton? I didn't realize it was that old. However. My problem with "no stone unturned" is the limitless edges of unmodified "no". "No" would cover searching Maori records for a Scotsman who died in France, or Australian records for Eric-the-Red, or New England records for a Spanish conquisadore. Some terns don't NEED stoning. (g) Cheryl singhals@erols.com

<snip> >> I note that those who get paid to do the tests are >> among the most prominent boosters of this methodology! <g> >> >> <snip> >> >> "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com> > > Dear Richard, > > I don't know if you had your DNA tested for genealogy purposes, so I > am sure what makes you affirm that "testing is more expensive than > it's worth". I certainly would like to hear your substantiation. <snip> Did you notice Max removed: "Director of Marketing http://www.FamilyTreeDNA.com" from this reply? > E-mail me any time > Max Blankfeld > max@familytreedna.com [ Er, that's probably a misdirected but well-intentioned action. I've invited Mr. Blankfeld to participate in the discussion, but asked that he try to keep things on a substantive level and avoid marketing hype. - Mod ] -- Mick Gurling CT USA "Mick Gurling" <No.Spam.mickg@toto.com>

"Max Blankfeld" <max@familytreedna.com> wrote: > First, both males and females can be tested. Males > test for the Y-DNA (from father to son...) and females test for the > mtDNA (from mother to daughter). Not true. Mitochondrial DNA is passed from mother to all children, male and female. > Females testing their mtDNA will find more anthropological answers: > deep ancestry and migration. Again, not true. Mitochondrial DNA provides the same evidence of relationships - it's just more complicated to trace as the common surname is not there as a guide. > Although this is a short paragraph, I hope it will shed some light > into the use of genetics in genealogy. While we say that DNA > testing is one more tool to be used in conjunction with traditional > genealogy, there are many people who have tested, and who said that > one test done to compare two individuals solved a 20, 30 or even 45 > year puzzle which included many thousands of dollars spent in travel > and research. It still only gives information about a single line. - the one linked to the surname. It CAN be used to confirm (or not) family myths and/or apparent male descent lines, but when one considers the numbers of ancestors about whom nothing can be learned by these methods, its use for genealogical purposes is very limited. Lesley Robertson Lesley Robertson <l.a.robertson@tnw.tudelft.nl>

Max If you want to pick nits. I might add that the mDNA is passed from Mother to child (of both sexes) not to just daughters. But it makes little sense to test males for mDNA as it would only go back 1 generation. So you are saying an exact match its is as likely that the common ancester was more than 7 generations as less. The best use of DNA I have seen has been to disprove a close relationship, like the Conklin Family Study which proved that John of Flushing and Rye was unrelated to the Conklins of Long Island. Or to prove a close relationship can't remember the surname here but that a family in Ohio was descended from the same common ancestor as the family in Connecticut even though no one had been able to find records linking the two families. Julia Coldren-Walker FamRSearch@aol.com

> <snip> > > Could not resist reprinting the above that included the following > as well as a few others that were run on. Now about that spell > checker? Smiling and grinning ear to ear. > > Effecive, apparopriate, encyclopeias > > Phil Holm <pholm@rconnect.com> Dear Mr. Holm: I never send any message without spell checking. That is the default. In this case, I was surprised that no words were flagged - and it turns out that some should have been. I am not responsible for the actions of Mr. Gates and his software. Trust me, though, the default is set to spell check every message. Richard k "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com>

<Snip> > Others will offer lists of best genealogy websites, and even I teach > a short course on online genealogy for the library where I work. > > But as a contrarian, I also have short piece, "The Past Is Not > Online." I wrote it about my city, Buffalo, but it's applicable > just about everywhere. See: > > http://www.buffaloresearch.com/past.html Well said Cynthia! The net is wonderful. But people who think they can really "do" their genealogy by sitting at their computers in their comfortable homes are deluding themselves. I am compiling a book on the ancestors and descendants of Bartlett Eaves (ca 1765-ca 1833). His descendants turn out to be of sturdy stock, frequently living to great old ages. And they were great breeders, so, even though I am cutting the book off at Bartlett's great-great-grandchildren (really just listing the basic bmd without any biographical information on the gg-grandchildren) the book is now at about 400 8 1/2 x 11-inch pages in 10-point type and still growing. The footnotes probably take up 35 percent of those pages. God knows how much space the index will take. The greatest boon I have found is the on-line censuses provided by ancestry.com, which I subscribe to, and by Heritage Quest, which the public library here in San Antonio subscribes to. Ancestry.com also has a few vital records on-line that have been helpful. Alas no one has "done" the 1900 census. The GenWeb sites also have been helpful. Another great boon is that I have been able to find people who have done real research on their branches of that family and who have been willing to share the fruits of that research with me. But I have to say I am almost shocked at the great wealth of incorrect information that is available on the internet and the number of people who are willing to accept as Gospel someone else's undocumented GED-COM. As helpful as the net has been, I have spent many, many hours at libraries looking at books, and many, many more hours at my friendly neighborhood LDS Family History Center hunched over a microfilm reader. Then there are the trips to courthouses for records that haven't been microfilmed (God bless the LDS church!) and letters to county clerks, etc., accompanied by checks, to get copies of records that haven't been microfilmed. If I had known what I was getting into when I began working on this book about four years ago, it probably would not have happened. But now I am hooked! Janey E. Joyce in San Antonio, Texas Janey Joyce <jejoyce@sbcglobal.net>

Phil Holm wrote: [snip] > Could not resist reprinting the above that included the following > as well as a few others that were run on. Now about that spell > checker? Smiling and grinning ear to ear. > > Effecive, apparopriate, encyclopeias Actually, the post as a whole illustrates one of the deadly sins of reviewing: magnifying the importance of minor errors to substitute for criticism on merits. For instance: smiling *and* grinning? Isn't that repetitive? > Moderator Brian, you may post or not as you see fit. One victim at a time, please. > Phil Holm <pholm@rconnect.com> Austin W. Spencer

My Lupo family was in Houston and Dooly Counties, Georgia from the 1830s through the 1850s. Between 1855 and 1860, my great-great- great grandfather, his brother and his son who was my ancestor moved to Florida. When the war broke out, my great-great-grandfather returned to Georgia to enlist and was killed in battle in 1863. His widow received a salt ration in Dooly County, Georgia in 1864, so apparently he brought his family back with him when he returned rather than leaving them with his father's family. From that point on, until the 1880s, my great-great-grandfather's family and that of his father and uncle disappear completely from records. I have seen records which suggest that one of his brothers and his cousins who remained behind in Florida and where the right age fought in regiments there during the war, but there's also an individual who may be his brother, but who's identified in some records by a name I've never heard used in connection with this brother. By the 1880s, his mother, brothers and sisters were back in Dooly County. But I have no idea when and where his father died, or where his widow was living or what became of his daughter who was age 5 on the 1860 census but disappears after that. My great- grandfather turns up on the census in 1880 living in the household of another family and ten years earlier, his brother could be found on the 1870 census in the same household but I cannot find their mother or sister in 1870 or 1880. In 1880, I've found her mother and sisters living together in the same district as my great- grandfather, but many households away, but she's nowhere to be found. She receives a widows' pension in the late 1880s or early 1890s, but by this time her sons have married and she's nowhere to be found. What little information I have from family sources came from my great-grandmother but was filtered through older cousins as she died a few years before I was born and it's been somewhat inconsistent. To track them down, I've looked through census records, land records, will and estate records and church records in areas they inhabited and haven't found any mention of them. My father used to tell me my great-grandfather owned a 100-acre farm in Dooly County and other family members have confirmed this, but I've found no deed records on the purchase. An older cousin has told me that my great-grandparents met when my great-grandfather went to work for the uncle of my great-grandmother, but I can't find any evidence that this uncle even lived in the same county during the relevant time period. In addition, my grandfather was a carpenter and appears to have learned the trade from an older cousin who my father, aunts and uncles vaguely remember, but when I requested the death certificate on this cousin, I didn't recognize the names of his mother and father and can't definitively connect them to my family. Could anyone suggest other avenues of research? The best evidence I have suggests they all returned to Georgia eventually, as that's where they're all living by 1880, but I cannot find any of the sons of my g-g-g-grandfather's brother, or the family of this cousin my grandfather worked with as a carpenter. Having the 1890 census would be a bit of a help as the cousin was born in 1883 and living on his own by 1900. Another problem is that there seem to be too many Lupo males running around who can't be definitively connected to my family, though evidence suggests they were connected somehow -- in many cases they're practically living next door to one another, but can't be connected by census or estate records. Any advice would be deeply appreciated. I've recently been requesting death certificates on anyone who made it into the era of death certs who I feel is connected and this has helped somewhat but in some cases it's left me with even more questions. Matt Lupo -- G. M. Lupo a.k.a. matt at lupo dot com Up on the hill, they think I'm okay Or so they say... "G. M. Lupo" <deaconblues@steelyspam.org>

Cheryl singhals@erols.com writes: > The fee is based on the number of years you want searched ... and > they must be consecutive years -- you cannot ask for 1942, 1952 > and 1962. And, if memory serves, you have to start with the > death-date and go backward. The records available to be searched cover every year the deceased had a SS number from death back to first SS card. More accurately put, from last employment back to first day he worked using his new new SS number/card. Interestingly, it was discovered that quite a few folks had acquired over the years more than one SS number. I never encountered individuals who wished only, say, the past ten years searched, but I don't see why that could not be requested. The folks I encountered knew nothing about the background of the relative and needed all the information available. Since this discussion has come up, I wonder if it may also be useful to some folks to know that in some specific cases, SSA will forward a letter to an individual with whom one needs contact. The searched for individual receives the letter with a cover letter from SSA. That recipient may or may not at his option choose to reply. No data about that individual will be revealed by SSA unless that individual has died. In that case SSA will so inform the sender of the letter of inquiry. A few examples of this means of attempting to locate a living individual are: 1) missing heirs; 2) need to notify individual of a death in the family, but do not know where the individual lives; 3) urgent need to learn medical history of a living individual. As of 1997, there was no charge for this service. Fran powell@closecall.com

> there are many people who have tested, and who said that > one test done to compare two individuals solved a 20, 30 or even 45 > year puzzle which included many thousands of dollars spent in travel > and research. Max: Please share some of these puzzle solutions with the group, using "X" or other codes in place of surnames to protect the privacy of the people involved. [ Watch for a later Methods post by a disinterested participant which mentions an example. - Mod ] Maybe some people are satisfied with being told that they likely descend from a given person -- never mind the numerous unidentified generations intervening -- but that is hardly what genealogists would consider valid. Sceptical, but willing to reconsider if you'll give us something concrete case studies in place of vague marketing hype, Ardis Parshall AEParshall@aol.com

Elizabeth at erichktn@worldnet.att.net asks: > Is genealogy/family history an acceptable reason to SSA? I think > I didn't realize you could get a complete employment history. I > have a couple of folks for whom I would find this of interest. Most of the folks I advised stated on the SS form that they were searching for missing family members which was the case with most of them. Some folks stated they needed to locate possible medical history records of the ancestor/relative by searching in various employment locales. One woman stated family history with explanation the GrUncle had left home at age 17 and none of the family knew what happened to him. Many folks stated they needed to search for records of earlier marriages, again, with a goal of locating missing relatives. To answer your specific question, I don't know whether genealogy/ family history of itself is acceptable to have SSA search its employment histories. A phone call to your local SSA office might answer that question. Best of luck, Fran powell@closecall.com

> > My philosophy has always been, "Leave no stone unturned". > > > > SGordon817@aol.com > > Early on, I found I had more stones than money. That being true, I > had to pick and choose which stones I could pay to turn over. > > Singhals I quite like the philosophy of G.K. Chesterton myself, who observing a man on a beach throwing pebbles at seagulls commented that he left no tern unstoned. Gil Gil Hardwick <gruagach@highway1.com.au>

On Sun, 27 Apr 2003, L. Witzig wrote: > The subject says it all. I am a true neophyte to genealogy and have > done some searching out on the net. However, I feel my searches > would be more fruitful if I had guidance or tips on how to search > for the best sites/groups. > > Do any of you have a short list of (a) books or (b) net sites that > would cover the basics of internet genealogy searches? I am loathe > to pay Ancestry.com $30 for an intro genealogical research on the > internet course. Others will offer lists of best genealogy websites, and even I teach a short course on online genealogy for the library where I work. But as a contrarian, I also have short piece, "The Past Is Not Online." I wrote it about my city, Buffalo, but it's applicable just about everywhere. See: http://www.buffaloresearch.com/past.html -=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=- Webmaster: Cynthia Van Ness, MLS -- roots@bfn.org Roots: The Buffalo NY Genealogy Forum -- http://www.bfn.org/~roots With obits, vital records, city directories & hundreds of local links

HI: I'm researching ROBERT H. BALDWIN of Mason County, KY. The reason I'm tracing Robert is to find two slaves he owned. But the Census info for 1860 I found in Heritage Quest is just not in synch with other info I have -- yes, I have Robert marrying a Sallie T. Metcalfe in 1844 in Kentucky, but the 1860 Census says he was 37 years old and from Misssissippi: Have found a Robert Baldwin, deputy sheriff, with wife Sallie T., wife, son John M. Also in household: John P. Metcalfe, age 65, Harriett Metcalfe, age 28, Amanda Metcalfe, age 33. I thought Baldwin was from Fayette Co., KY I found a Robert Baldwin there who migrated to Mason Co. in 1844. What am I to make of this Census info -- so many of the names are matching up (particularly his wife, and the fact that they live in Mason Co.) that I don't want to dump them..... What do listers think -- should I keep looking for more info on Baldwin to narrow down exactly the right slave owner???? Or should I accept this person? BTW: Robert H. Baldwin died around 1863 and I do have his will. KBerry Kdberr1@aol.com

> > I've done quite some searching, but haven't come far, IMHO... > > > > What I DO have so far is online at > > > > http://evert.meulie.net/paf/ > > > > evert@meulie.net > > Have you tried google.com, entering Meulie+genealogy? Lots of > Meulie's there. Are any of them yours? > > JoanC <JCastenada@aol.com> ALL those pages are referring to me, or to posts of mine... ;)

RICHARD,I`M NEW TO THIS, WHERE IS THE SPELL CHECKER? THANKYUO,YOU MAY BE HEARING MORE FROM ME--YUOR EXCELLENT! ` EMKONSLER Emkonsler@aol.com

Richard A. Pence wrote: Snip > Here is the "translation" I prepared for a "newbie" right after the > "Effecive" article appeared as an April Fool's article in RWR: I've > done some updating. Snip > 1. HOT WORDS. Run your spell checker before posting. Your messages > will look foolish if you misspell "genealogy." Proper punctuation > is essential for clarity - and that includes using your shift key at > the proper times. > > 2. FREQUENCY OF POSTS. Snip > or mailing list - that is, make sure message is apparopriate to the Snip > 7. BOOKSHY. Snip > are dictionaries, glossaries, encyclopeias, maps and place finders Could not resist reprinting the above that included the following as well as a few others that were run on. Now about that spell checker? Smiling and grinning ear to ear. Effecive, apparopriate, encyclopeias Moderator Brian, you may post or not as you see fit. Phil Holm Phil Holm <pholm@rconnect.com>

>Edith <Mooreedith@aol.com> wrote: > > > I would like to hear some educated input into why are the males only > > being tested? > > > > is there some scientific reason for this? > >The testing involves DNA that is passed on only from father to son. > >There is a similar test for mother to daughter - but the reason the >tests are being done for males is that the surname identifies the >group. Identifying the descendants of a female would be extremely >difficult as each woman would likely have a different surname. > > <snip> > > > Isn't also this process very expensive? > >I think it's more expensive than it is worth - but I suppose it >depends on what answers you are seeking and the likelihood of >finding them. I note that those who get paid to do the tests are >among the most prominent boosters of this methodology! <g> > > <snip> > >"Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com> Dear Richard, I don't know if you had your DNA tested for genealogy purposes, so I am sure what makes you affirm that "testing is more expensive than it's worth". I certainly would like to hear your substantiation. In the meantime, please allow me to make a correction to one of your answers: "why are the males only being tested". You said that the testing involves DNA that is passed from father to son. That is almost correct. First, both males and females can be tested. Males test for the Y-DNA (from father to son...) and females test for the mtDNA (from mother to daughter). Now, for genealogy purposes the Y-DNA works better because the mutation rates of the mtDNA are much slower that those occurring in the Y-DNA. In other words, with very slow mutation rates, a match between two mtDNAs would mean that a common ancestor existed a few thousand years ago, which is of no significance for genealogy. On the other hand, with mutation rates occurring at a faster rate, which is what happens with the Y-DNA, a match between to samples could signify a common ancestor just a few generations ago. That's why the Y-DNA is used for genealogy. For example, a 25/25 match signifies that in 50% of the times, a common ancestor could have existed 7 generations or less. Females testing their mtDNA will find more anthropological answers: deep ancestry and migration. Although this is a short paragraph, I hope it will shed some light into the use of genetics in genealogy. While we say that DNA testing is one more tool to be used in conjunction with traditional genealogy, there are many people who have tested, and who said that one test done to compare two individuals solved a 20, 30 or even 45 year puzzle which included many thousands of dollars spent in travel and research. E-mail me any time Max Blankfeld max@familytreedna.com

> > The SS-5 is the application that a person filled out when applying > > for a SSN. It is not a vital piece of information if you know his > > both date and place and parents. It will tell you when and where he > > applied and who he was working for. > > > > rpgillis@bellatlantic.net > > I agree with what Bob writes but will add two points of possible > interest: (1) the SS application is acceptable to both DAR and UDC > as proof of birth and proof of parentage when those vital records > are not available elsewhere [perhaps acceptable to other lineage > societies but I know of only the two cited]; (2) there is available > from SS a record of the deceased's employment. A record of all the > jobs held by the deceased since a SS number was obtained, costs a > great deal more than $27, but is invaluable as a search tool when > one does not know where one's ancestor may have lived at periods of > his lifetime. [Fran's note: I do not know how SS bases its fees for > the latter type of application. In recent years I know of one that > cost $87; one that cost $92; another that cost $74, etc.] > > Fran <powell@closecall.com> The fee is based on the number of years you want searched ... and they must be consecutive years -- you cannot ask for 1942, 1952 and 1962. And, if memory serves, you have to start with the death-date and go backward. You're paying for a real human to pull, read, and copy a real, hard-copy, file. Neither Cheap nor Inexpensive should be used in the description of the cost. (g) I've got a form for it around here somewhere. If I find it, I'll post some examples. [Or I suppose, someone COULD search the archives, because I'm pretty sure I've posted it before.] Cheryl singhals@erols.com

SGordon817@aol.com wrote: > My philosophy has always been, "Leave no stone unturned". Early on, I found I had more stones than money. That being true, I had to pick and choose which stones I could pay to turn over. Cheryl singhals@erols.com