"Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com> wrote: > I am sure you count me among the skeptics. I am not. "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com> wrote earlier: > I think it's more expensive than it is worth and then > Gee, Ardis, apparently you missed the Wall Street Journal article > last month which gives all sorts of goodies that DNA testing has > brought to genealogists. That doesn't sound like a skeptic at all. It sounds like someone with their mind firmly closed (errr, made up). Tom "Tom Morris" <tmorris-NOSPAM@SPAMFREE.nh.ultranet.com>

"Greg Lovelace" <gregl@starfishnet.com> wrote: > I have been reading with some humor and some dismay all the posts > regarding the usefulness (or the lack thereof) of commercial DNA > testing for genealogical purposes. My reaction wasn't quite so mixed. I was appalled by the closemindeness demonstrated and the argumentative nature of the discussion by the self appointed genealogy "experts." > [good real world description of DNA testing use deleted ] > Now I'm not sure that any of this will satisfy any of the skeptics > who have been questioning the genealogical value of DNA testing. > All I can say is that we as a family are satisfied with our results. > We have learned a lot as a consequence of this study, and we hope to > add more subjects and learn even more. If folks would like additional real world information, a good summary of DNA testing as applied to genealogy can be found at: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~allpoms/genetics.html (the top hit for the Google query "dna site:rootsweb.com" if anyone cared to look) It includes a list of 300 DNA/genealogy studies. Some of the earlier studies which have good writeups include: http://www.mumma.org/DNA.htm http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~allpoms/geneticsportal.htm For those that find information printed on dead trees more believable, our local Boston genealogy society, NEHGS, has a quarterly magzine called "New England Ancestors" which has featured real world case studies of the application of DNA testing to genealogy in its last two quarterly issues. Tom "Tom Morris" <tmorris-NOSPAM@SPAMFREE.nh.ultranet.com>

> The obvious thing now seems to > be to look on the 1910 census for Texas - can anyone tell me whether > there is a cheaper way of doing this than taking out a subscription > to Ancestry.com? HI: One alternative is to check for state historical societies that include access to online databases as part of the membership fee. I just joined the Kentucky Historical Society for $35. I now have Internet access to Heritage Quest. Great bargain even though Heritage Quest doesn't offer the 1900 Census. KBerry Kdberr1@aol.com

> I am looking for a group or list where members can post questions or > share info about marital rites (...what made a marriage given a > particular time and place, laws pertaining to marriage and family > given the region and time period), rites of passage and general > questions/info about customs. I looked at rootsweb. Didn't see a > list dedicated to this. Anyone know of a list/group I should try or > does anyone have a site to recommend? > > Brenda "bransflakes" <bransflakes@earthlink.net> If no one comes through with an online list, there's always your local public or college library. Marriage customs have been a topic of scholarly research ever since the establishment of anthropology as a branch of human knowledge. -=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=- Webmaster: Cynthia Van Ness, MLS -- roots@bfn.org Roots: The Buffalo NY Genealogy Forum -- http://www.bfn.org/~roots With obits, vital records, city directories & hundreds of local links

In one response to this thread someone mentioned or asked how the list of hers came about. First the family members tell the administrator of the estate who the heirs are. However if there are no immediate heirs known to the court and the value of the estate is fairly large, a person, such as a lawyer, familiar with the probate courts may have a researcher find heirs to the estate. If the search is successful, the lawyer and the researcher receives a percentage of the estate. In NYC there are a number of people who do this research on a full time basis and make a good living at it. bob gillis bob gillis <rpgillis@bellatlantic.net>

> > <snip> > > > > They are having a reunion in Fredricksburg this fall Just hope I can > > go. Charles is taking me on a week to Nags head for my birthday so > > will not be at the meeting. Really did not want to miss this one. > > Because I want to learn how to do it so I can do a house and front > > yard of my step daughter. > > > > <snip> > > > > "Reita Kelley" <reita.kelley@worldnet.att.net> > > hi. just FYI, I would think that Fredricksburg (Virginia?) is less > than two hours drive from Nags Head.... and it can take an hour to > drive from Nags Head to just about anywhere. :) > > --charles (the other charles) Try 4 and a half hours Nagshead to Fredericksburg 242 miles Lee Corbit <ccorbit@earthlink.net>

Elizabeth Richardson wrote: >I note, however, that previous posts regarding the test applying >only to a single surname line are the overwhelming reason why DNA >tests have little value to most genealogy researchers. My own >research involves the descendants of one set of 3ggrandparents, who >happen to be from my maternal grandfather's line. Neither Y- nor mt >testing would have any pertinence. Most people are generalists, >interested in both female and male lines. DNA tests simply have no >application to the majority. Elizabeth, DNA tests do not need to have application for "the majority". All that is needed for the procedure to be added to the research tool kit is that it be shown to be useful in some cases This back and forward arguing here is meaningless, and I am finding it becoming increasingly personal apparently through disappointment that certain questions had not been answered as satisfactorily as they might have been. I am sorry to see the members here periodically bog down in what to us here in Australia appears to be nothing more than a belligerent and self-righteous head-butting over one petty issue or another. Any form of research MUST necessary be open-minded, and at least start off open-ended. I doubt that anyone defining their own particular research agenda too narrowly before the fact, or defending it too rigorously against assumptions and procedures accepted as common-place across interdisciplinary thresholds will gain much credibility as research scholars. Whether someone is making money out of it is not at issue. OK? Let's keep it open and friendly. Thanks, Gil Gil Hardwick <gruagach@highway1.com.au>

I asked my niece, who is a librarian in Oxford, if she knew where there were DNA experts and the following is what she sent to me. Hope this might be helpful. Bunny Turner Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada "Hello from Oxford. The answer to your question I think is www.oxfordancestors.com <http://www.oxfordancestors.com>. Curiously enough I was asked this at work a little while ago." bunnypat@eastlink.ca

"ASHTON-REDLIN ANNETTE" <ashtonredlin@yahoo.co.uk> writes: > can anyone tell me whether there is a cheaper > way of doing this than taking out a subscription > to Ancestry.com? Thanks Annette Annette - The various on-line census data subscriptions do not have all the years indexed, so before you shell out the $, make sure they offer what you need. The 1910 census at Ancestry is not indexed, so it won't be easy to locate him if you don't know where he lived. I am told that some of the Family History libraries of the LDS have access to Ancestry, but I don't know about the UK. Subscribe to TX-CENSUS-LOOKUP-L, at rootsweb.com and ask for a look up. Lisa llepore@juno.com

Hi list, I have a question about DNA research for women. I have an adopted aunt, who as the story goes, is actually my sister. Would DNA testing prove whether or not we share the same father? And would it show if her father is actually my grandfather(another version of the story)? We know that she is the daughter of one of these two men (my father or grandfather), but don't know which. Would DNA testing of myself and my aunt answer these questions? Carrie in Colorado Carrie Marsh <carrie1@attglobal.net>

> Thank you to everyone who has helped me trying to trace William > Baxter. I found him still in Scotland on the 1901 census so he must > have left for the States after that. The obvious thing now seems to > be to look on the 1910 census for Texas - can anyone tell me whether > there is a cheaper way of doing this than taking out a subscription > to Ancestry.com? Thanks Annette > > "ASHTON-REDLIN ANNETTE" <ashtonredlin@yahoo.co.uk> I checked HeritageQuest On-line last night. There are 28 men named William Baxter, b in Scotland in the US in 1910. None are in Texas. Since I had no other info, I quit there. Cheryl singhals@erols.com

Annette There are 21 William Baxters listed in the 1910 cenus for Texas. (Heritage Quest) None of them indicate a birthplace of Scotland. I do apologize that I have not followed this thread very closely. I can follow up if you'd like... There is a William B. Baxter b. in Scotland, age 69 living in Sulphur Springs (Hopkins County) Texas on the 1920 Census. (Ancestry.com) Would be happy to send you the page off list... just let me know. There are 30 William Baxters listed in the 1930 Texas Census, none born in Scotland. bev Bev <brencher@earthlink.net>

"Gil Hardwick" <gruagach@highway1.com.au> wrote: > Indeed, this is a genealogical forum, and as I have already > mentioned my position on the matter is that the technique can save > a great deal of time and money by narrowing down the range of > enquiry. I don't see anyone questioning this premise. But neither has anyone actually shown where new generations have been confirmed as a direct result of this improved focus. It almost seems as if you (and most of the "testimonials") are defining "success" as a perceived saving of time and money. What Ardis has sought is some evidence that this has actually worked in identifying and confirming a new ancestor. Richard "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com>

"John F. Chandler" <JCHBN@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU> wrote: > Ardis wrote: > > That's what I'd like to read from you -- a single, solitary case > > study resulting in the solution of a genealogical puzzle, to the > > standards of a genealogist. > > I would suggest that you consider both positive and negative > solutions. Negative solutions would be proofs furnished by DNA > evidence that two lines are in fact not related at all, despite > persistent rumors that they are. You can see two such solutions > on the Blanchard DNA web page. I think that the point Ardis is making is that, yes, DNA testing can provide some research direction - but that in and of itself is NOT a "genealogical success" story. What would I really learn if DNA studies showed that the neighbors Michael and Conrad Pence are not related? Or, for that matter, it really doesn't help me solve the problem of the parentage of either to know that they ARE. This is not to say that having this negative or positive information might not in some cases provide the clue that will eventually lead to a solution - and that is the kind of "success story" that Ardis is looking for and has failed to find in the "testimonials." Regards, Richard "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com>

Kevin You have to find the authorizing documents to get the official names. I think some were called plantations, but it would be in the official documents for each foundation. I know that Plymouth and Massachusetts were once separate foundations and then they were united. A good colonial history should cover it pretty well. Julia FamRSearch@aol.com

ASHTON-REDLIN ANNETTE wrote: > > Thank you to everyone who has helped me trying to trace William > Baxter. I found him still in Scotland on the 1901 census so he must > have left for the States after that. The obvious thing now seems to > be to look on the 1910 census for Texas - can anyone tell me whether > there is a cheaper way of doing this than taking out a subscription > to Ancestry.com? Thanks Annette There are several ways to obtain a Soundex film: 1. Join the TX-CENSUS-LOOKUP list on rootsweb. Check the name on the List of Lists. Ask for a lookup in the 1910 Soundex. 2. Order the 1910 Soundex film for Baxter, B236, through a Family History Center. You will have to find what film and reel you need. Look at the Family History Library Catalog at http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp 3. Order the film through Inter-Library Loan or whatever the British equivalent is. You will need the Film and Reel number which is different than in the FHL Catalog, (the reel number is probably the same. 4. The National Archives and Records Administration, NARA, lends films directly but I do not know if they will send overseas. Go to www.nara.gov and search for Census Catalogue for more information. However first try to find him in the Ellis Island Passenger Lists. Go to http://www.avotaynu.com/ellis.html. These records only cover arrivals in the Port of new York. If William Baxter left england with a destination of Texas he might have entered at New Orleans, Houston or Galveston so he might not be in Ellis Island Data Base. If you find him it may give the place and person he was going to. bob gillis bob gillis <rpgillis@bellatlantic.net>

> My husband's grandfather, a paternal cousin, received > 1/4th 1/6th of 1/2 estate. The shares can sometimes help you determine who the heirs were - at least in their relationships. My mother had a cousin who passed away with no family other than several first cousins in descendants. I can't recall how many cousins there were, but that was the original number of shares. Since my mother was deceased, I received 1/2 of her share and my deceased sister's three children each received 1/3 of her 1/2. So in the original you outline, it could be that there were two siblings, each of whom were entitled to 1/2 of the estate. On your husband's side that sibling was apparently deceased, so his share was divided among the six children and your husband's grandfather was apparently one of four children entitled to the portion that would have going to his parent. The relationships might be different than what I described. There will be a law setting forth how intestate estates are to be divided. At one time in Illinois it was first to children, in none, then to siblings (full and half) and if none then to parents, then to uncles and aunts, etc. Richard "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com>

"ASHTON-REDLIN ANNETTE" <ashtonredlin@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > The obvious thing now seems to > be to look on the 1910 census for Texas - can anyone tell me whether > there is a cheaper way of doing this than taking out a subscription > to Ancestry.com? You'll probably get some free look-ups from helpful souls, but in case not, there is "a cheaper way." There is on microfilm a soundex index for the 1910 Texas census. Check at a Family History Center or your local library. Also check with your libary to see if it subscribes the the Heritage Quest census package (from ProQuest) or one of the other services. HQ has the 1910 census indexed. Ancestry.com does not have the 1910 census indexes, so it wouldn't be the best choice if that is your need. Genealogy.com does have an on--line index to the 1910 census - the one that HQ had prepared. As for what is "cheaper," everyone has different needs and means. But for as many look-ups as I do (often several each day), it is a whole lot "cheaper" to have subscriptions to both Ancestry.com and Genealogy.com. I guess they cost a total of $20 a month. I could borrow only four or five microfilm for that (and I would still have to drive somewhere to look at them). Or I can go to the National Archives and look at the microfilm "for free" - if I want to spend $20 a day to park nearby. And remember, there are indexes for many of the on-line images. You can often find a record on-line in sends. If you don't have memories of cranking microfilm readers all day for a couple of days just to find one family, you may not realize what "cheaper" really is! I did a quick search at Genealogy.com for William Baxter in 1910 Texas. There are a couple dozen of that name - maybe more - but I noticed only one born outside of the U.S and he was in his 60s. Maybe someone else will spot him for you. At Ancestry.com for 1920 only 8 names William Baxter, all born in U.S. Some 27 of that name in the every-name index of the 1930 census at Ancestry, but I didn't see any likely matches. You'll want to confirm these results as I did it hurriedly. Richard "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com>

"Greg Lovelace" <gregl@starfishnet.com> wrote: > <much of an excellent report snipped - if you haven't read it, do!> > > Now I'm not sure that any of this will satisfy any of the skeptics > who have been questioning the genealogical value of DNA testing. > All I can say is that we as a family are satisfied with our results. > We have learned a lot as a consequence of this study, and we hope to > add more subjects and learn even more. May I congratulate you on and excellent - and realistic report on one of the more promising uses of DNA testing - surname group identification. The most impressive part of the report is that it didn't make the exaggerated claims found in the testimonials and recognized that what you have learned is how to better focus your future research. I am sure you count me among the skeptics. I am not. The point of my messages - overdone, to be sure - is that statements such as "Reporter Finds His Roots With DNA Test" simply are not true. And there are way too many such exaggerations. My quarrel is not with what DNA testing can do, it is with the claims it has done things that it cannot do! As you have pointed out, the tests don't bring magic results. The nitty-gritty work is still there to be done. And I didn't detect any claim in your report that said anyone has discovered any new ancestors as a direct consequence of getting his test results. You may recall that in my first post on this topic I said I didn't think the time had yet arrived for the investment of time and money in a similar study for the PENCEs (which I have been collecting data on for 35 years). You put your finger on a couple of the reasons, cost being an important one. Another is that - like the Lovelxxx family - many of the real problems are with "orphan families" in which the surname has died out (and this is one reason why the got orphaned - when a surname disappears from a family, so does the desire to keep records on it). There is another reason - and that is the need is not a pressing. Most of the Pence family (the surname was originally BENTZ) came to the U.S. from various places in what is generally now Germany in the early 1700s and it is possible to identify many of the lines "back to the boat" because better records exist than might exist for the 1600s and early 1700s in Virginia or Maryland. IOW, the group is generally known. If not, the question is "how would it help researchers to know which group." For example, In one case, four men named PENCE showed up in Virginia's Shenandoah County in the late 1770s and early 1780s. These are believed to be brothers (at least by me in the case of three of them) and it would be nice to know if in fact they are. But since we know the general (even specific in a couple of cases) area of Pennsylvania from which they came, the value of knowing this is limited. The research would still have to be directed to the same places as they now are. > Thanks for you time and for listening. Be sure to visit the links > above. Seeing the results is much better than me telling you about > them. On the contrary, your message was a much better explanation than the tables and charts at the web site. Regards, Richard A. Pence, 3211 Adams Ct, Fairfax, VA 22030 Voice 703-591-4243 Fax 703-352-3560 Pence Family History <http://www.pipeline.com/~richardpence/> "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com>

Evelyn Bayna wrote: > One of the papers I found was a "final account" for an estate for May READ. > She had acquired quite a sum of worth for 1961 and the list of heirs > was over 32. My husband's grandfather, a paternal cousin, received > 1/4th 1/6th of 1/2 estate. I contacted the probate office for Cook > Co. , IL and they say the file is 400 pages. That would cost about > $125 to have copied. I have the "final account" that states page > 240 on the first page and lists assets and heirs. There are no > addresses for heirs or genealogical evidence on these pages. My > question, does anyone know what I would ask for that would show how > the heirs are related? The woman in the office was quite helpful > and she is going to look through the file over the next couple of > days, but I only asked her to look for addresses. I didn't know > what else to ask for. For what it may be worth: My father saved a Petition to divide the real estate of a distant cousin who died intestate in Kansas in 1951, leaving only cousins (and rather distant ones at that) as heirs. The petition lists the names of the 80+ cousins, their addresses as of 1954, and the share of the estate they were to inherit (which ranged from 1/10th to 1/630th). All were descendants of a common ancestral couple married in 1798. It's taken me 23 years to figure out the relationships/where each person fits on the tree, but I think I finally put the last few pieces of the puzzle together a couple of weeks ago, thanks primarily to the online 1880 Census Index at Familysearch.org. I suspect I might have solved the problem much earlier if I'd trekked to Topeka (or hired a local researcher) to look at the file. (As an aside, my Dad bought a Stetson and some boots and banked the rest for 15 years, so my sister and I got a college education out of his 1/112th share; rumor has it there was some oil in that land). Within the last few years, my Mother received a letter from the administrator of the estate of a distant cousin who had recently died intestate in Missouri, also without children, siblings, etc. We're not quite sure how he found her, but she was the one to provide him with the names and addresses of several other cousins, so my guess is that in this person's file, it would be my mother's letter that could advise of the relationships. (Unfortunately, this cousin didn't have oil land or much else of any value). So my advice echoes Joan's: ask for the Petition. And I would then consider looking at the file yourself (good excuse for a trip to Chicago, if you ask me), or hire a genealogist to look at it for you. And to any newbies to genealogy who have managed to read this far: let this thread be an intro to one of the key lessons of genealogy: don't overlook those maiden great aunts or bachelor great uncles. The records they leave when they die usually give you more info than that of your direct ancestors. Connie Sheets clsheets1@prodigy.net