I can't remember if I have seen this anywhere, but if a Union solider was killed, did his widow get his pension? My ggg-grandfather was killed in 1864 in Arkansas and although I have his military papers, I don't have any pension info (the military ones were sent to me by a cousin). Would he have any pension? Ellen Vonkorn@aol.com

For what its worth-on my gggreat-grandfathers pension, the children were listed as "all of age". Most of my info on his children comes from cemetery records-and that still leaves a few BIG gaps on info. Rose :-) (to see my genealogy info, go to the last page of the Gowett genealogy, and click on "Roses Family" some of the names there are C.U.R.L.E.Y D.U.F.F.Y W.O.O.D D.O.Y.L.E S.T.A.W.A.S.Z / S.T.A.W.A.R.Z many others......) http://community.webtv.net/TIM1776/TimGowettRacing http://community.webtv.net/TIM1776/TheTripleAs http://community.webtv.net/TIM1776/TheGowettFamily TIM1776@webtv.net (T&R Gowett)

"Austin W. Spencer" wrote: > > > Hello Richard and list. You have made an assumption that is > > wrong. I never said that a pension was paid for the childern under > > any age. I said: the childern of my GGrandfather were listed BY > > birth date and place AND by the mothers >>>>>>>> ALL THREE of them, > > eight children in All. HE applied for a pension in 1898. The > > question asked was "How many children do you have", he then lists > > them ALL!!!!, Phil > > > > "Phil Stevens" <joephil@nwlink.com> > > Phil, this repetition is getting tiresome. Yes, your great- > grandfather left a pension file with an uncommonly full description > of his wives and children. Does this mean that our readers can and > should expect the same from any given pension file search? Once > again, I say no. For the third time this month, by my count. It is however something that MANY files do contain, and the possibility that it might be there makes it well worth getting the file. > Finally, without consulting other sources, how can you be certain > that these eight are all the children that your great-grandfather > had? As in a case that I cited recently, children might have been > passed over because they died very young. Moreover, even your > great-grandfather may have suffered from faulty memory when he > reported his children's births to the pension board or compiled the > record of births in the family bible. (Families were known to > compile their bible records after the births of several children and > to estimate birth dates from ages -- and thereby get them wrong.) > For this reason it is still advisable to seek original, independent > birth or baptismal records, if available, or confirmation of > parentage elsewhere. Checking from another source is a given. I have my gggf's pension file in front of me, and it gives a WEALTH of information, including that he joined up underage (lied about his age), was discharged on a writ of hebeas corpus from his mother, skipped states and joined up again under a slightly different name, and that he was invalided out aged 25, and drew a pension for nearly 50 years! In January 1915 the Bureau of Pensions sent out a questionaire including the following question; State the names and dates of birth of all your children living or dead. Dave Mayall <dave@research-group.co.uk>

> Hello Richard and list. You have made an assumption that is > wrong. I never said that a pension was paid for the childern under > any age. I said: the childern of my GGrandfather were listed BY > birth date and place AND by the mothers >>>>>>>> ALL THREE of them, > eight children in All. HE applied for a pension in 1898. The > question asked was "How many children do you have", he then lists > them ALL!!!!, Phil > > "Phil Stevens" <joephil@nwlink.com> Phil, this repetition is getting tiresome. Yes, your great- grandfather left a pension file with an uncommonly full description of his wives and children. Does this mean that our readers can and should expect the same from any given pension file search? Once again, I say no. For the third time this month, by my count. In all fairness, Richard was not the one who invoked the limitations on support from statute and normal disclosure limitations on children's identities -- I was. And all I meant by this statement, general as it was, is that few pension files will be characterized by the same level of completeness as your great-grandfather's. I sincerely trust that this is not unwarranted assumption. But even if it is, Richard should not take the blame for it. Finally, without consulting other sources, how can you be certain that these eight are all the children that your great-grandfather had? As in a case that I cited recently, children might have been passed over because they died very young. Moreover, even your great-grandfather may have suffered from faulty memory when he reported his children's births to the pension board or compiled the record of births in the family bible. (Families were known to compile their bible records after the births of several children and to estimate birth dates from ages -- and thereby get them wrong.) For this reason it is still advisable to seek original, independent birth or baptismal records, if available, or confirmation of parentage elsewhere. Austin W. Spencer "Austin W. Spencer" <AustinWSpencer@cox.net>

> > > And Phil replies, Yes, BUT, When I received My GG Grandfather's > > > Pension file IT Listed ALL Eight of his Children, ALL Three of His > > > wives, WITH Dates of Birth Death and Marriages, EVEN Where ....... > > > SO You can not say That the Goverment will do one thing and Only one > > > thing, YOU must Remember This!!, You are dealing with the US of A > > > Goverment structure, Do Not assume ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, Phil > > > (who by the way has a total of 5 Pension files for his families!!!) > > > > > > "Phil Stevens" <joephil@nwlink.com> > > > > The fact that the pensions were paid for only those children under > > a certain age doesn't equate to only children under a certain age > > are listed in the pension files. > > > > "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com> > > Hello Richard and list. You have made an assumption that is > wrong. I never said that a pension was paid for the childern under > any age. I said: the childern of my GGrandfather were listed BY > birth date and place AND by the mothers >>>>>>>> ALL THREE of them, > eight children in All. HE applied for a pension in 1898. The > question asked was "How many children do you have", he then lists > them ALL!!!!, Phil > > "Phil Stevens" <joephil@nwlink.com> I've been reviewing pension files for brothers of my various great grandparents and one great grandfather. As to wives and children listed: in 1898 the government sent out a form requesting information on any and all marriages and children, including where is there a record of the marriage. I believe the form was again issued in about 1914. One in dividual responded to the questions right on the form, my ggrandfather answered in a separate letter. Prior to that form there was no mention of his marriage or children. Neither was there a mention of marriage dates, etc for a gg uncle who died in 1888 or 89. In his case there was an inquest, instigated by a ex wife, as to whether his medical condition pre-existed his service. Even after his death during the inquest she was determined that his widow and children from the second marriage would get nothing. While there were references to both wives and all three children (adult daughter even testified) there were no marriage licenses or dates of marriage. His file had an autopsy report, but no death certificate. This file, though having a widow's application number did not have a division between invalid and widow in the folder and really no division between invalid and widow other than a mention of the applicant's death. BTW she got a pension even though as a blacksmith, I'd guess the condition probably pre-existed his service (his was a medical discharge). Sharon Sharon Simpson <sharonlsimpson@comcast.net>

> Does anyone know what the occupation Superintendent, Registrar may > mean? Round about the 1900s. He was also a Clerk to the Guardians > in 1908 (Liverpool area) > > peter@xmouldingname.info Hi Peter I believe the occupation could be related to the Workhouse, Board of Guardians. Google search on Workhouses or Poor Law should give good result. regards Ava "Ava Connelly" <aconnelly@blueyonder.co.uk>

> Richard and Phil > > I think this is the case that you are both right. I have a pension > file for one of my greats that does not list a single one of his 11 > children, the youngest was in his twenties when the pension > application was first filed. In fact 2 of his grandchildren send > supporting statements but unless you knew who they were you would > not know it from the file as they were both children of daughters. > > I also have a great file where the pension application of the > soldier not only lists each of his children including those over 16 > but also givens their husbands names, marriage dates and where they > currently live. > > So the bottom line is that some files are great, some are so so but > all are worth looking at. > > Julia Coldren-Walker <FamRSearch@aol.com> I was merely suggesting this: You will find many different types of records and affidavits in a pension file - some necessary, some not - but you need to be careful about drawing conclusions as a result of the absence or presence of any particular type of record. Richard "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com>

> We knew Mom was fooling around with genealogy, but the extent was a > surprise! > > We (I and eldest son) want to do it right, save this stuff to > electronic format, make it available on a website (that's no > problem). > > The problem is to get the right software the first time. Probably > other problems ...... tell me. Not much money available. > > Any good advice is appreciated. I don't want to start entering > data, only to find the effort wasted due to poor choice. > > Using my "handle" for now, until I figure how you people get away > with letting your names and email addresses hang out for SPAM > harvesting... > > "Ol' Bab" <olbabNO-SPAM@rochester.rr.com> I like "free" whenever possible and am still happy with the free product from the Mormons: PAF. I use other free gedcom to html products also gencircles is good for putting it up on the web and looking at the tree and so far no spam from them. Someone correct me here but I think the Mormons created Gedcom and possible created the first *huge need* for genealogy computer programs. So, since Family Search also has a genealogy program they are a good basic FREE program to *start* experimenting with. The way I see it after all the others go out of business PAF will probably still be around because ancestor research is part of their religion. Also, I ditto the hard copies especially the records put into non-acid archival sheets, boxes, etc. as technology changes rapidly. In case computers are still here in the next hundred years do make CDs or DVDs of everything you can get onto your puter. Others wrote: > Dunno -- my spam generates from another source, not the > newsgroups. [also] Newsgroups are generally not the source of spam. Newsgroups "per-se" are not usually sending out spam. However, they are archived for 20 years on Deja/google groups so that is possibly why I have received junk mail on email addresses I used exclusively on newsgroups. There are also other archives such as Kornet, Mailgate, etc and some like RootsWeb "mail-archives" where some of their mail-groups get "feed" from newsgroups and they archive all that too. On my websites I have my email address placed in an html page as a gif on the "send me an email page". Adding NOSPAM etc to your email works a little but as someone else pointed out some spam spyders trolling the net automatically delete the obvious - nospam, antispam, etc. My personal experience with newsgroups is that it seems best "for me" to fake, and often change, the automatic email address in the "properties" menu for the newsgroup setup. Then add something like the following at the bottom of the post every once in a while: Hope this helps, Paula ...........Disregard reply email in header My email address is at yahoo dot com addressed to paulanigro .................. "Tea Cup" <not-here@antispam.edu>

> I didn't mention that Mother died in the sixties, and frankly nobody > thought much about that big box until my eldest son suddenly found a > need for roots. He's been scanning hundreds of old and very old > photos, and posting the results on a website (forum) he set up for > this. The intent is to post the family data on the same site, > unless there's some incompatibility with the forum software (phpBB). > > Since he is the software expert, he will want a major say in program > selection -I have been delegated the reseach function, especially > since he has a great distaste for newsgroups. He says they are > almost as big a black hole for time as chat rooms. (Well, they ARE, > aren't they!!) (He has a job, I've retired.) > > "Ol' Bab" <olbabNO-SPAM@rochester.rr.com> What software is your son using for the family web page?" I want to start that kind of thing and you mentioned a lot of pictures. I have a lot of family pictures and need help identifying them. Any ideas you could pass along would be appreciated. I can't resist adding to the software question even though you probably have already made a decision. If you narrow it down to one or two programs monitor that program's mail list on RootsWeb. I am watching RootsMagic myself and find the problems all come out. Of course, every program will have it's supporters and detractors but it appeals to me to be a good way to evaluate while you may be trying a demo version. John "The Wilson's" <wjp5@icehouse.net>

> > And Phil replies, Yes, BUT, When I received My GG Grandfather's > > Pension file IT Listed ALL Eight of his Children, ALL Three of His > > wives, WITH Dates of Birth Death and Marriages, EVEN Where ....... > > SO You can not say That the Goverment will do one thing and Only one > > thing, YOU must Remember This!!, You are dealing with the US of A > > Goverment structure, Do Not assume ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, Phil > > (who by the way has a total of 5 Pension files for his families!!!) > > > > "Phil Stevens" <joephil@nwlink.com> > > The fact that the pensions were paid for only those children under > a certain age doesn't equate to only children under a certain age > are listed in the pension files. > > "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com> Hello Richard and list. You have made an assumption that is wrong. I never said that a pension was paid for the childern under any age. I said: the childern of my GGrandfather were listed BY birth date and place AND by the mothers >>>>>>>> ALL THREE of them, eight children in All. HE applied for a pension in 1898. The question asked was "How many children do you have", he then lists them ALL!!!!, Phil "Phil Stevens" <joephil@nwlink.com>

Richard and Phil I think this is the case that you are both right. I have a pension file for one of my greats that does not list a single one of his 11 children, the youngest was in his twenties when the pension application was first filed. In fact 2 of his grandchildren send supporting statements but unless you knew who they were you would not know it from the file as they were both children of daughters. I also have a great file where the pension application of the soldier not only lists each of his children including those over 16 but also givens their husbands names, marriage dates and where they currently live. So the bottom line is that some files are great, some are so so but all are worth looking at. Julia Coldren-Walker FamRSearch@aol.com

> > > I am looking for a group or list where members can post questions or > > > share info about marital rites (...what made a marriage given a > > > particular time and place, laws pertaining to marriage and family > > > given the region and time period), rites of passage and general > > > questions/info about customs. I looked at rootsweb. Didn't see a > > > list dedicated to this. Anyone know of a list/group I should try or > > > does anyone have a site to recommend? > > > > > > bransflakes > > > > As Cynthia (Roots Webmaster) says, it's long been a scholarly topic. > > So, try Cultural Anthropology groups or Sociology groups. > > > > singhals@erols.com > > i'm late in this reply, but read the other posts...contacted a > friend who works in cultural anthropology (oh, yea...he's a computer > analyst, too...the guy has to make a living)...anyway, he asked if > you had a particular country, region, culture, time period...and > apparently it can vary widely between all those and, bad news, > documentation varies widely, too. > > fsuedu Well, yes, there's the glitch in it all -- What Scots Presbyterians did in 1600 in Scotland isn't what they were doing in 2000 in Scotland; and neither are what they were doing in 2000 in North Carolina. If I had a *desperate* need to pinpoint something, I'd be in the magazine archives, praying someone somewhere had archived Bride's magazine for the US. But, as an identifier, this is gelatinous -- if a couple is "belled" after their wedding is it because THEY are (this ethnic), or because the party organizer is? If a bride has a penny in her shoe, is it because (celebrity name) did it and it was publicized, or is it because both of them share that ethnic heritage? Cheryl singhals@erols.com

"Phil Stevens" <joephil@nwlink.com> wrote: > And Phil replies, Yes, BUT, When I received My GG Grandfather's > Pension file IT Listed ALL Eight of his Children, ALL Three of His > wives, WITH Dates of Birth Death and Marriages, EVEN Where ....... > SO You can not say That the Goverment will do one thing and Only one > thing, YOU must Remember This!!, You are dealing with the US of A > Goverment structure, Do Not assume ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, Phil > (who by the way has a total of 5 Pension files for his families!!!) The fact that the pensions were paid for only those children under a certain age doesn't equate to only children under a certain age are listed in the pension files. Richard "Richard A. Pence" <richardpence@pipeline.com>

> And Phil replies, Yes, BUT, When I received My GG Grandfather's > Pension file IT Listed ALL Eight of his Children, ALL Three of His > wives, WITH Dates of Birth Death and Marriages, EVEN Where ....... > SO You can not say That the Goverment will do one thing and Only one > thing, YOU must Remember This!!, You are dealing with the US of A > Goverment structure, Do Not assume ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, Phil > (who by the way has a total of 5 Pension files for his families!!!) > > "Phil Stevens" <joephil@nwlink.com> I too have gathered five pension files. From comparison of their child listings against census records, I have found that not one gives complete dates of birth for all the pensioner's children, but all five give full dates of marriage, often with an affidavit from the minister or magistrate who officiated. Only one fails to give a death date for all wives (and in that case the pension was dropped for "Failure to claim"). Legally, the recording of all marriages and wives' deaths is as justified as the requirement for full dates of birth of surviving children under 16 years of age. The pension board had to be certain that the pensioner had only one wife surviving to press a widow's claim. Because children's eligibility was highly limited, however, one is less likely to find information on them in the pension file. In the census I saw one child who would have been eligible for government support had she only outlived her father. His pension file does not mention her at all. It's nice to see a family record fully entered in a pension file; I just don't think it advisable to bet on it. Austin W. Spencer P. S. My address is properly AustinWSpencer@cox.net; the sdc was added somewhere between me and Methods, possibly by my ISP. I don't have this problem with e-mail or GenForum. But I prefer to read responses on the newsgroup anyhow. [ The address mangling is almost surely happening inside of cox.net. Usually this occurs when someone has incorrectly configured the mail transfer agent's "masquerading" on the USENET News server or on an internal mail relay. (Note that *moderated* newsgroup posts actually travel as ordinary e-mail to the moderator.) -Mod (who has been doing system administration since 1974) ] "Austin W. Spencer" <AustinWSpencer@cox.net>

Does anyone know what the occupation Superintendent, Registrar may mean? Round about the 1900s. He was also a Clerk to the Guardians in 1908 (Liverpool area) TIA All the best Peter http://www.mouldingname.info http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~moulding peter@xmouldingname.info

Hello group, and Austin, Are you using Mail washer???, the Letter I sent to you was returned!!! If you are gonna post to the list You should at least make it possible to receive the replies!!! Phil "Phil Stevens" <joephil@nwlink.com>

> Phil Stevens wrote in part: > > > Send for The Widows application file, She will > > have had to prove her marriage to Him, She will have had to give > > the Govement a copy of their Marriage License, AND quite possibly > > prove the birth of ALL of their children, To prove she needed the > > money to feed them, Stuff Like that !!!, You might even see mention > > of HER parents > > The government needed copies of all relevant marriage records, but > it would only support those of the pensioner's children who were > under sixteen years of age. To the rest, the government had no > legal obligation. So the file will include documentation (including > supporting affidavits from physicians and other attendants) for > births less than sixteen years before the father's death. If the > soldier died leaving no children that young, at most you'll find > that the children themselves signed affidavits in support of their > mothers' widow's claims. Don't count on the pension board having > entered a full copy of the family bible record. > > "Austin W. Spencer" <AustinWSpencer@sdc.cox.net> And Phil replies, Yes, BUT, When I received My GG Grandfather's Pension file IT Listed ALL Eight of his Children, ALL Three of His wives, WITH Dates of Birth Death and Marriages, EVEN Where ....... SO You can not say That the Goverment will do one thing and Only one thing, YOU must Remember This!!, You are dealing with the US of A Goverment structure, Do Not assume ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, Phil (who by the way has a total of 5 Pension files for his families!!!) "Phil Stevens" <joephil@nwlink.com>

http://www.generationalhealth.com/ Isdalaz@aol.com

> i'm late in this reply, but read the other posts...contacted a > friend who works in cultural anthropology (oh, yea...he's a computer > analyst, too...the guy has to make a living)...anyway, he asked if > you had a particular country, region, culture, time period...and > apparently it can vary widely between all those and, bad news, > documentation varies widely, too. but he will try to help you focus > your search if you want.....and i personally would also recommend > emailing the state library of florida...the research staff there is > top notch.... > > fsuedu@hotmail.com (fsuedu) fsuedu, Thanks for the time and effort. I am still very interested in finding info on customs, etc.... I have a pretty extensive library (actual books) and access to some people who are in the know about these things. I also have a friend who is thinking about starting a rootsweb.com list about customs, rites of passage, what makes a marriage, etc. She has the time, energy and mental faculties that I lack 90% of the time. bransflakes bransflakes <bransflakes@earthlink.net>

"Ol' Bab" <olbabNO-SPAM@rochester.rr.com> wrote: > I didn't mention that Mother died in the sixties, and frankly nobody > thought much about that big box until my eldest son suddenly found a > need for roots. He's been scanning hundreds of old and very old > photos, and posting the results on a website (forum) he set up for > this. The intent is to post the family data on the same site, > unless there's some incompatibility with the forum software (phpBB). > > Since he is the software expert, he will want a major say in program > selection Scanning and digitizing your documents is fine, but one needs to put this into perspective. You need to preserve your mother's original (paper-based) documentation, too. You said that your mother passed away in the 60s. Yet, almost 4 decades later, your son was able to open the box, read the documentation, assess its obvious worth and immediately begin using it. What if your mother had preserved that documentation on, say, an 8" floppy disk, in an image format that is no longer used? Chances are that you would have discarded those unreadable floppies long ago--and, with it, all that valuable information. Here is the text of an article that I saved. It was written with a focus on document archiving for businesses, but much of it is equally applicable to the genealogy community as well. It may give you an entirely new perspective on digitizing. _______________________________ Digitization Reconsidered [ Groaning slightly, the moderator trimmed off a great article that Jeremy had attached. Please, everyone, when you include articles written by others, credit the source AND tell me you've contacted the source and have permission to redistribute their writing. Thanks all, Mod. ] "Jeremy" <jeremy@no-spam-thanks.com>