The book is written, proofed, ready for the printer. A cousin dies. That cousin was prominent in that book. Where in that book do I place the obituary? Fred "Fred Frederick" <[email protected]>

> Ellipses: > It has been a while since I needed this information, so I went to > "google" to refresh my memory. I do not recall such disagreement on > the proper spacing of the elliptical dots, but that is probably > because I just followed the style manual selected by my university. > > <snip> > > Virginia Beck The material I'm working with was first published between 1803 and 1898; paraphrased and republished in 1937. The ellipses I'm finding are all over the market; there's . ... . .. . ... .... ,... , ... . . . .. . and . . . . [ Again, Mod entered the leading space on the line above. Starting a line with a period is A Bad Idea for technical reasons. - Mod ] Given the content, I feel I need to streamline it to lower the Fog-Factor, but after 6 months gave up on the content. It's tough proofing a document that has so many separate but marginally distinct styles. You're right -- every style manual I looked at had a different suggestion. I'm about to fall back on a 1967 GPO Style Manual, if only so I can state a specific one that darn few folks will be able to find. (g) Cheryl singhals <[email protected]>

Ellipses: It has been a while since I needed this information, so I went to "google" to refresh my memory. I do not recall such disagreement on the proper spacing of the elliptical dots, but that is probably because I just followed the style manual selected by my university. In my opinion, a document in which ellipses already exist should be transcribed exactly as originally written, and that fact should noted. Trying to rewrite historical documents to conform to modern usage may result in changing the meaning. However, unless an original paper is written for a specific institution or is some kind of legal document, it looks like you can choose the form you like best! One source says to treat the ellipsis as a three letter word, constructed with two full spaces and three dots ... like this. Another states that there should be a space between the dots . . . like this, and when the ellipsis follows a complete sentence, the spacing should still be observed . . . . like this. A third recommended that when the ellipsis follows a sentence, the punctuation should follow immediately after the sentence, then a space, then the three eliptical dots. ... like this, however the rules for legal usage mandate a space, then three spaced dots, then the punctuation . . . ! The Chicago Manual of Style states: "There are two commonly used methods of using ellipses: one uses three dots for any omission, the second makes a distinction between omissions within a sentence (using three dots: ...) and omissions between sentences (using a period and a space followed by three NONBREAKING-SPACED dots. . . . [their emphasis]. There is no such thing as a "four-dot ellipsis". A period followed by an ellipsis may look like four dots, but they are two separate entities." Although some write ellipses without spaces, some institutions, such as the Oxford University Press, place one space in front of three non-spaced dots, thus "I have seen something ..." instead of "I have seen something..." The exception here is when a word has been cut off in the middle; that is, when the ellipsis stands for a part of one word "'He said he realized he was wro...' I stopped mid-word, awestruck." In legal writing in the U.S., Rule 5.3 in the Bluebook citation guide requires a space before the first dot and between the two subsequent dots. If an ellipsis ends the sentence, then there are three dots, each separated by a space, followed by the final punctuation. [The direct opposite of the Chicago Manual of Style where the punctuation precedes the elliptical dots.] About the use of more than three elliptical marks: Use a line of elipses to indicate the omission of one or more lines in a quotation of three or more lines of verse. "Forgive my grief for one removed. Thy creature, whom I found so fair . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [ space before first period added by Mod to avoid technical problems ] Forgive these wild and wandering cries, Confusions of a wasted youth." Curiouser and curiouser, said Alice . . . ! "Virginia Beck" <[email protected]>

Cheryl Singhals wrote: > OK, you grammar-hammers and "prissy-faced English teachers" out > there -- Some of us find it quite flattering to be considered a grammar- hammer, if not a prissy-faced English teacher. (I don't even teach English, for crying out loud! <G>) I'm happy to help, but my remarks here are subject to a caveat that I must reserve for the end of this message. For now, let us just address the general usage of the ellipsis. > If an ellipsis follows the end of a sentence are there 3 dots or 4? Four. The dot at the left is the one that ends the sentence. It is also correct usage to place four dots when you stop quoting in the *middle* of one sentence and resume it at the *beginning* of another, within the same pair of quotation marks. Four dots are also a popular way to end a quote in midsentence, but I think one period suffices and is less distracting. > If an ellipsis follows a clause which ends with a , do I leave the , ? Take it or leave it, but most writers prefer to leave the comma out. > Quote marks with punctuation -- > if the quoted material ends with a . it's inside the quote, yes? Of course. > If the quoted material from the center of a sentence but is at the > end of the new sentence the . is outside the quote, right? No, in almost every case the preferred usage is to put all periods and ellipses inside the quotes. The major exception concerns the usage of APA-style parenthetical citations. Then the quote will end on a word, with no punctuation aside from the closing mark, followed by the citation material in parentheses with the period after the closing parenthesis. Now for the caveat. > The material I'm working with has it all ways, and I want to > standardize punctuation for clarity to the 21st century reader, most > of whom don't have a clue what the rules are in the 21st century but > will promptly be on an anomaly like fur on a kitten. Meanwhile, > seeing so many deviations from the norm I thought I knew in the > beginning has me looking up whether all sentences must end with a . Transcribing an original, are you? If you want to modernize the punctuation, that is your choice -- though I do hope that you include a notice with your transcript that says, "I have modernized the punctuation." The ellipsis, however, poses a special problem when it appears in original documents. It is used in published works to condense quotations and make it more economical to print them. Good transcription practice will hardly permit you to dispense with them, but to leave them in without explaining them will only sow confusion among your readers, who may suspect that you have removed some material and condensed the document. Therefore, your notice should also say: "Ellipses appear in the original text." Austin W. Spencer "Austin W. Spencer" <[email protected]>

> If an ellipsis follows the end of a sentence are there 3 dots or 4? > > If an ellipsis follows a clause which ends with a , do I leave the , ? > > Quote marks with punctuation -- > if the quoted material ends with a . it's inside the quote, yes? > > If the quoted material from the center of a sentence but is at the > end of the new sentence the . is outside the quote, right? > > The material I'm working with has it all ways, and I want to > standardize punctuation for clarity to the 21st century reader, most > of whom don't have a clue what the rules are in the 21st century but > will promptly be on an anomaly like fur on a kitten. Meanwhile, > seeing so many deviations from the norm I thought I knew in the > beginning has me looking up whether all sentences must end with a . > > Cheryl Singhals <[email protected]> wrong group bugger off to http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english Description: English grammar, word usages, and related topics. Hugh W -- new computer = new blog http://mac-on-intel.blogspot.com/ daily blogs with new photos http://snaps2006.blogspot.com/ http://slim2005.blogspot.com/ family history http://hughw36.blogspot.com/ Hugh Watkins <[email protected]>

> [...] > Have you checked usage guides, like Strunk & White, Fowler's Modern > English Usage or the New York Times style guide? > > Joe Makowiec I have failed to find ellipses in my copy of Strunk and White (3rd edition, 1979). Quotations: they don't explicitly consider the situation of a quotation that does not include a full stop but comes at the end of the sentence in which it is quoted. Though they don't explicitly consider quoted sentences either, there are, for other reasons, examples of a quotation's happening to be a sentence that ends the sentence in which it is quoted. In the examples, the full stop is before the closing quotation marks. They state that, when a quotation is followed by a comma, Typographical usage dictates that that the comma be inside the marks, though logically it often seems not to belong there. "The Clerks," "Luke Havergal," and "Richard Cory" are in Robinson's Children of the Night. By extrapolation, it may be that a full stop should be before quotation marks as well, rather than after. They point out that one can, instead of using quotation marks, distinguish quotations from text by beginning on a fresh line and indenting. (See examples above.) [email protected] (cecilia)

> If an ellipsis follows the end of a sentence are there 3 dots or 4? > > Cheryl Singhals According to the Chicago Manual of Style online: "Q. An ellipsis is defined by three dots. Is there a particular reason that it is limited to three dots? I am looking to understand what the ellipsis signifies! A. How many dots would you like? You can have as many as four if you put an ellipsis after a period. I don't know of any significance behind the choice of three. Perhaps the number gradually came to be popular and then was standardized in style sheets and grammar for the sake of consistency, as well as to prevent . . . . . . . . . . . . . . silliness." For more answers to your questions: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/cmosfaq/cmosfaq.html Kathy kql <[email protected]>

X-Spamscanner: mailbox7.ucsd.edu (v1.6 Jul 6 2006 16:38:12, -1.4/5.0 3.= 1.3) X-MailScanner: PASSED (v1.2.8 19343 k7GJlw1e036856 mailbox7.ucsd.edu) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.52 on 192.168.65.34 singhals wrote: > If an ellipsis follows the end of a sentence are there 3 dots or 4? The ellipsis is a unit, as is the period/full stop. So if you're ending = a sentence, eliminating material, then picking up, I would think that it = would be period/space/ellipsis, thus: ... previous sentence ends. ... Having excised some material, we now pick up the narrative ... = > If an ellipsis follows a clause which ends with a , do I leave the , ?= My 2=C2=A2 worth: only if it makes sense. Say for example: Cheryl Singhals, who posted this question, lives in cyberspace. Cheryl Singhals ... lives in cyberspace. Have you checked usage guides, like Strunk & White, Fowler's Modern English Usage or the New York Times style guide? -- = Joe Makowiec http://makowiec.org/ Email: http://makowiec.org/contact/?Joe Joe Makowiec <[email protected]>

OK, you grammar-hammers and "prissy-faced English teachers" out there -- If an ellipsis follows the end of a sentence are there 3 dots or 4? If an ellipsis follows a clause which ends with a , do I leave the , ? Quote marks with punctuation -- if the quoted material ends with a . it's inside the quote, yes? If the quoted material from the center of a sentence but is at the end of the new sentence the . is outside the quote, right? The material I'm working with has it all ways, and I want to standardize punctuation for clarity to the 21st century reader, most of whom don't have a clue what the rules are in the 21st century but will promptly be on an anomaly like fur on a kitten. Meanwhile, seeing so many deviations from the norm I thought I knew in the beginning has me looking up whether all sentences must end with a . Cheryl singhals <[email protected]>

> The IGI has a David Browne married to Sarah Smethhurst in Salem MA > 27 Jun 1779. The Salem VRs have that a marriage intention was > published that day and the entry has a note (Sarah Smethhurst > forbids the band (sic) of matrimony and says she never consented to > be published.) > > How do I notify the LDS that this was not a marriage and a marriage > never took place. This is one of the few errors I have noticed in > an extracted IGI. I think there is a contact us link but it is > buried so deep I cannot find it. > > bob gillis IGI don't mess with submitted data try and post it or a message board Hugh W -- new computer = new blog http://mac-on-intel.blogspot.com/ daily blogs with new photos http://snaps2006.blogspot.com/ http://slim2005.blogspot.com/ family history http://hughw36.blogspot.com/ Hugh Watkins <[email protected]>

> > Knowing the date that a particular piece of data was displayed on a > > Web page can help researchers to do something *really* useful. > > > > <snip> > > > > Dr. Brian Leverich > > Unless there was something wrong with the image, ie the info on the > image was not decipherable, which I would note in my report or I > made an tracribing error, I doubt anyone would bother to go look up > a Census image. > > bob gillis I do all the time also to look at the neighbours and their occupations or browse a whole village mother and father in law in a cottage next door "cluster genealogy" is the phrase brother of married sister close by after moving from Somerset to London Hugh W -- new computer = new blog http://mac-on-intel.blogspot.com/ daily blogs with new photos http://snaps2006.blogspot.com/ http://slim2005.blogspot.com/ family history http://hughw36.blogspot.com/ Hugh Watkins <[email protected]>

> How do I notify the LDS that this was not a marriage and a marriage > never took place. > > bob gillis <[email protected]> Bob - As far as can tell, you don't. The IGI does not distinguish between extracted intentions and extracted marriages. Dale H. Cook; Member, NEHGS and MA Society of Mayflower Descendants; Plymouth Co. MA Coordinator for the USGenWeb Project http://members.cox.net/plymouthcounty/index.shtml [email protected]

> I'm a reporter for the Toronto Star. I'm writing an article this > month (August 2006) about Ontario residents who have used DNA > testing to confirm branches of their family. > > I'm trying to find Ontario residents who have tried DNA testing for > this reason. > > I can be reached at 416-869-4301 or at [email protected] > > Naomi My family is partly Canadian. We have started DNA projects. All I can tell you is that most DNA studies are set up by a family surname and most have a project leader. I don't know if their data bases would yield a list of residents of Ontario but it's worth a shot. Try contacting familytrees.com and see what they can do for you. I suppose some of this stuff is deemed confidential, possibly private for some folks because they might not be content with the actual findings. Robert Stacey [email protected]

> > Knowing the date that a particular piece of data was displayed on a > > Web page can help researchers to do something *really* useful. > > > > <snip> > > > > Dr. Brian Leverich > > Unless there was something wrong with the image, ie the info on the > image was not decipherable, which I would note in my report or I > made an tracribing error, I doubt anyone would bother to go look up > a Census image. > > bob gillis *Even* if the URL hadn't changed in the meantime, or the data- delivery system didn't change, or the new browser didn't refuse to display "old" image formats ... Then again, I'm feeling grumpy today because an editor thinks "daybreak" needs clarification. Cheryl singhals <[email protected]>

The IGI has a David Browne married to Sarah Smethhurst in Salem MA 27 Jun 1779. The Salem VRs have that a marriage intention was published that day and the entry has a note (Sarah Smethhurst forbids the band (sic) of matrimony and says she never consented to be published.) How do I notify the LDS that this was not a marriage and a marriage never took place. This is one of the few errors I have noticed in an extracted IGI. I think there is a contact us link but it is buried so deep I cannot find it. bob gillis bob gillis <[email protected]>

> Hi there, I'm a reporter for the Toronto Star. I'm writing an > article this month (August 2006) about Ontario residents who > have used DNA testing to confirm branches of their family. I'm > trying to find Ontario residents who have tried DNA testing for > this reason. I can be reached at 416-869-4301 or at > [email protected] All the best, Naomi > > "Toronto Star reporter" <[email protected]> How about Newfoundland residents? :) I've done the Y-chromosome 37 Marker DNA test through FTDNA and my results are posted on my Surname project website: www.Erbland.org I'm thinking about refining my results to 67 Markers.

> Knowing the date that a particular piece of data was displayed on a > Web page can help researchers to do something *really* useful. > > <snip> > > Dr. Brian Leverich Unless there was something wrong with the image, ie the info on the image was not decipherable, which I would note in my report or I made an tracribing error, I doubt anyone would bother to go look up a Census image. bob gillis bob gillis <[email protected]>

Hi there, I'm a reporter for the Toronto Star. I'm writing an article this month (August 2006) about Ontario residents who have used DNA testing to confirm branches of their family. I'm trying to find Ontario residents who have tried DNA testing for this reason. I can be reached at 416-869-4301 or at [email protected] All the best, Naomi

You guys have reminded me.... A few years ago, there was a service through the web that would notify you when websites you'd listed with them had changed. It was called NetMind. I tried to find it, and found it has been discontinued. However this was recommended. http://www.changedetect.com/ I know nothing about it, and need to leave for work soon; but, perhaps this is something that would be useful. I'm sure anyone looking it over will be good enough to share their opinions? Thanks JoAnn JoAnn <[email protected]>

> How is a webmaster for a web site going to see my genealogy > report? > > bob gillis <[email protected]> He isn't. But references aren't really for YOU, they are for people trying to confirm or duplicate your findings. -- }:-) Christopher Jahn {:-( http://home.comcast.net/~xjahn/Main.html Bumper sticker: "All the parts falling off this car are of the very finest British manufacture" Christopher Jahn <[email protected]>