I came across this article in an old newspaper that I was transcribing for the Dufferin County Museum & Archives. THE SHELBURNE FREE PRESS IMAGE SCANNED Thursday April 1, 1926 DIPPING INTO THE PAST 50 YEARS AGO The other day Mr. R. J. Little of Mono and his son Danny, found a young deer in the bush. The deep snow had apparently “foundered” the animal, which was in pretty bad shape. Mr. Little took the deer home and is now feeding and caring for it in an endeavor to get its strength back. The exceptionally deep snow in the woods is apparently making life anything but easy for the animals.

My family is principally from northern eastern Indiana, and I have been looking for data for over 10 years. I have consistently been told that most counties began keep records for marriages and deaths in the late 1800 and early 1900. Now I see that family search has county marriage records that go back to 1811. Am I missing something or is there more to the story. Keith Nuttle <Keith_Nuttle@sbcglobal.net>

On 10/3/2012 12:47 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote: > On 10/2/2012 9:02 PM, bob gillis wrote: > >> On 10/2/2012 12:20 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote: >> >> snip >> >>> Unfortunately that is easier said than done. I just recently found the father >>> in Crawford Co Ohio who would have been the person who was in Germany. I have >>> no idea at this time where in Germany the family came from, if that generation >>> came from Germany and not one of the eastern states like Pa. >> >> BUT YOU CAN DO IT >> >> Genealogy research is often a process of elimination. >> >> How old was John George at any of the events you have? >> >> Search the US Census for Hindenlang in 1790-1830 in USA. check out any in >> NY, PA, MD and VA. Check out any FAMILIES that have a male child that >> matches the age of John George. >> >> Search Castle Garden for him and for any Hindenl*g >> >> Search the Philadelphia Passenger Arrivals >> >> >>> Trying to piece things together, I had hoped that that discharge paper could >>> provide a clue to the Germany or Pennsylvania question. >>> >>> If anyone has information on the recently found father, John George Hindenlang >>> (Hindelong), who married a Catharine Smith (Parents Frederick and Eva Smith) >>> in 1838 in Crawford CO Ohio, had a son John Frederick Hindenlang in 1839, and >>> died there about 1840, I would appreciate it. >> >> Searching FS for Hindenlang √ Germany √ 1800-1838 returns 59 records. >> and 1780 - 1838 77. Check them out. >> >> bob gillis <robertgillis@verizon.net> > > > Bob thank you for all of the help you have given me. I found John George > Hindenlang was John Frederick Hindenlang's father about 2 months ago and have > been working to confirm what I have found, I am now ready to start searching > for John George, and will follow your suggestions. I have been working Familyserach from the unindexed records and from the search page https://www.familysearch.org/ However the results I get do not seem to be the ones you get. How are you searching Familysearch? Keith Nuttle <Keith_Nuttle@sbcglobal.net>

On 10/2/2012 9:02 PM, bob gillis wrote: snip Searching FS for Hindenlang √ Germany √ 1800-1838 returns 59 records. and 1780 - 1838 77. Check them out. just looked at this reply and noticed that alt 251 did not come out as a check mark. This is the only list where that has happened so I think is is due to the way that Linkpendium processes GENMTD messaages bob gillis bob gillis <robertgillis@verizon.net>

On 10/2/2012 9:02 PM, bob gillis wrote: > On 10/2/2012 12:20 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote: > > snip > >> Unfortunately that is easier said than done. I just recently found the father >> in Crawford Co Ohio who would have been the person who was in Germany. I have >> no idea at this time where in Germany the family came from, if that generation >> came from Germany and not one of the eastern states like Pa. > > BUT YOU CAN DO IT > > Genealogy research is often a process of elimination. > > How old was John George at any of the events you have? > > Search the US Census for Hindenlang in 1790-1830 in USA. check out any in > NY, PA, MD and VA. Check out any FAMILIES that have a male child that > matches the age of John George. > > Search Castle Garden for him and for any Hindenl*g > > Search the Philadelphia Passenger Arrivals > > >> Trying to piece things together, I had hoped that that discharge paper could >> provide a clue to the Germany or Pennsylvania question. >> >> If anyone has information on the recently found father, John George Hindenlang >> (Hindelong), who married a Catharine Smith (Parents Frederick and Eva Smith) >> in 1838 in Crawford CO Ohio, had a son John Frederick Hindenlang in 1839, and >> died there about 1840, I would appreciate it. > > Searching FS for Hindenlang √ Germany √ 1800-1838 returns 59 records. > and 1780 - 1838 77. Check them out. > > bob gillis <robertgillis@verizon.net> Bob thank you for all of the help you have given me. I found John George Hindenlang was John Frederick Hindenlang's father about 2 months ago and have been working to confirm what I have found, I am now ready to start searching for John George, and will follow your suggestions.

Further to my previous message a male Hindenlag age 19 arrived in NY on 25 jun 1833 from Le Havre. Also in searching the <=1830 Census include OH. bob gillis bob gillis <robertgillis@verizon.net>

On 10/2/2012 12:20 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote: snip > Unfortunately that is easier said than done. I just recently found the father > in Crawford Co Ohio who would have been the person who was in Germany. I have > no idea at this time where in Germany the family came from, if that generation > came from Germany and not one of the eastern states like Pa. BUT YOU CAN DO IT Genealogy research is often a process of elimination. How old was John George at any of the events you have? Search the US Census for Hindenlang in 1790-1830 in USA. check out any in NY, PA, MD and VA. Check out any FAMILIES that have a male child that matches the age of John George. Search Castle Garden for him and for any Hindenl*g Search the Philadelphia Passenger Arrivals > Trying to piece things together, I had hoped that that discharge paper could > provide a clue to the Germany or Pennsylvania question. > > If anyone has information on the recently found father, John George Hindenlang > (Hindelong), who married a Catharine Smith (Parents Frederick and Eva Smith) > in 1838 in Crawford CO Ohio, had a son John Frederick Hindenlang in 1839, and > died there about 1840, I would appreciate it. Searching FS for Hindenlang √ Germany √ 1800-1838 returns 59 records. and 1780 - 1838 77. Check them out. bob gillis bob gillis <robertgillis@verizon.net>

>> To put a slightly different spin on my original question, would a soldier >> discharge form a German Army in the period from about 1780 through 1830 >> receive discharge papers? >> >> If it was not a military discharge would a person in Germany in the same >> period receive a written discharge from the town he lived in so he could >> emigrate to the US? I could see a person with poor in the German language >> interpreting this type of document as a military discharge. >> >> Keith Nuttle > > I suggest that you join a a list for the area that the family lived, on > rootsweb, Yahoo or genealogy.net. The army/ies that these men may have > belonged to could be in different duchies , electorates. principalities etc. > > Not giving the details of the people being discussed just makes a lot of > guesses usually not leading to a good answer. > > bob gillis <robertgillis@verizon.net> Unfortunately that is easier said than done. I just recently found the father in Crawford Co Ohio who would have been the person who was in Germany. I have no idea at this time where in Germany the family came from, if that generation came from Germany and not one of the eastern states like Pa. Trying to piece things together, I had hoped that that discharge paper could provide a clue to the Germany or Pennsylvania question. If anyone has information on the recently found father, John George Hindenlang (Hindelong), who married a Catharine Smith (Parents Frederick and Eva Smith) in 1838 in Crawford CO Ohio, had a son John Frederick Hindenlang in 1839, and died there about 1840, I would appreciate it. Keith Nuttle <Keith_Nuttle@sbcglobal.net>

> To put a slightly different spin on my original question, would a soldier > discharge form a German Army in the period from about 1780 through 1830 > receive discharge papers? > > If it was not a military discharge would a person in Germany in the same > period receive a written discharge from the town he lived in so he could > emigrate to the US? I could see a person with poor in the German language > interpreting this type of document as a military discharge. > > Keith Nuttle I suggest that you join a a list for the area that the family lived, on rootsweb, Yahoo or genealogy.net. The army/ies that these men may have belonged to could be in different duchies , electorates. principalities etc. Not giving the details of the people being discussed just makes a lot of guesses usually not leading to a good answer. bob gillis bob gillis <robertgillis@verizon.net>

> > > reason, I think findagrave is a good resource. > > > > > > I'm sorry you have had a bad experience with transcription accuracy > > > - I have not seen that yet. > > > > > > Again, like any other data, it needs to be verified. > > > > > > Lisa Lepore > > > > Findagrave is a very goood resource. > > But like anything of its type, not to be trusted. > > > > Wes Groleau > > Now that we all of us have agreed that F-a-G is a good resource (i.e., > better'n nothing) -- where do we stand on the matter of how many of the > collected sources I should pass on? > All? > The Best? > The Most Accessible? > The Oldest? > > Cheryl Singhals <singhals@erols.com> I answered this one a while ago - hope you saw it - All of them. Lisa

> Situation: > > My cousin who has been researching our family for years, says that his mother > had a document in German which she thought was John George Hindelong's > discharge papers from the German Army (Which army is unknown) > > At some time in the last forty years I have been told that document which was > in a leather binder disappeared into dust before it could be copied. > > Based on the age of the "Discharge" document, it could help determine what > generation came from German. > > 1st Generation ?Christian? b: ?1770-1890? > 2st Generation John George b:about 1810 > 3st Generation John Frederick b:1839 > > Assuming the discharge document was kept as a prized document in a drawer, > would anyone be willing to estimate how old the document would be when it > crumbled to dust? > > If this 1st generation ?Christian? was the a Christian Hindelong from Russia > who immigrated from Baiersbronn in 1804 to the US, the discharge document > would have been issued before 1804. It would have been 140 - 160 years old > when my cousin said it crumbled to dust. > > Knowing the approximate life span of a document of this type could help in my > search as it would give me a better idea as to who was in the army and when > they came to America. > > Thank you for any help you can give me. > > Keith Nuttle <Keith_Nuttle@sbcglobal.net> I wish to thank those who responded to my original post. From their response, it appears that because of the different possible storage conditions and papers there is no way to estimate the age of this document. To put a slightly different spin on my original question, would a soldier discharge form a German Army in the period from about 1780 through 1830 receive discharge papers? If it was not a military discharge would a person in Germany in the same period receive a written discharge from the town he lived in so he could emigrate to the US? I could see a person with poor in the German language interpreting this type of document as a military discharge. I could see where both would become treasured documents. Keith Nuttle <Keith_Nuttle@sbcglobal.net>

> > > reason, I think findagrave is a good resource. > > > > > > I'm sorry you have had a bad experience with transcription > > > accuracy - I have not seen that yet. > > > > > > Again, like any other data, it needs to be verified. > > > > > > Lisa Lepore > > > > Findagrave is a very goood resource. > > But like anything of its type, not to be trusted. > > > > Wes Groleau > > Now that we all of us have agreed that F-a-G is a good resource (i.e., > better'n nothing) -- where do we stand on the matter of how many of the > collected sources I should pass on? > All? > The Best? > The Most Accessible? > The Oldest? > > Cheryl Singhals <singhals@erols.com> Since any conclusions you've drawn were likely based on your analysis of ALL the sources, I'd say pass 'em all on with, maybe, some indication of which you found most useful/reliable/what-have-you. You want the person receiving the information to be able to duplicate your results (arrive at the same conclusion) or to show you where you went off the tracks, right? Just sayin' Sneaky Ol' Bob -- Robert G. Melson | Rio Grande MicroSolutions | El Paso, Texas ----- Nothing astonishes men so much as common sense and plain dealing. Ralph Waldo Emerson Bob Melson <amia9018@mypacks.net>

> > reason, I think findagrave is a good resource. > > > > I'm sorry you have had a bad experience with transcription accuracy - I have > > not seen that yet. > > > > Again, like any other data, it needs to be verified. > > > > Lisa Lepore > > Findagrave is a very goood resource. > But like anything of its type, not to be trusted. > > Wes Groleau Now that we all of us have agreed that F-a-G is a good resource (i.e., better'n nothing) -- where do we stand on the matter of how many of the collected sources I should pass on? All? The Best? The Most Accessible? The Oldest? Cheryl singhals <singhals@erols.com>

> reason, I think findagrave is a good resource. > > I'm sorry you have had a bad experience with transcription accuracy - I have > not seen that yet. > > Again, like any other data, it needs to be verified. > > Lisa Lepore Findagrave is a very goood resource. But like anything of its type, not to be trusted. -- Wes Groleau Daily Hoax: http://www.snopes2.com/cgi-bin/random/random.asp Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org>

> Situation: > > My cousin who has been researching our family for years, says that > his mother had a document in German which she thought was John George > Hindelong's discharge papers from the German Army (Which army is > unknown) > > At some time in the last forty years I have been told that document > which was in a leather binder disappeared into dust before it could > be copied. > > Based on the age of the "Discharge" document, it could help determine > what generation came from German. > > 1st Generation ?Christian? b: ?1770-1890? 2st Generation John > George b:about 1810 3st Generation John Frederick b:1839 > > Assuming the discharge document was kept as a prized document in a > drawer, would anyone be willing to estimate how old the document > would be when it crumbled to dust? > > If this 1st generation ?Christian? was the a Christian Hindelong from > Russia who immigrated from Baiersbronn in 1804 to the US, the > discharge document would have been issued before 1804. It would have > been 140 - 160 years old when my cousin said it crumbled to dust. > > Keith Nuttle Until the mid 1900s most paper in the USA was made from cotton or linen fibers with no acids. A number of years ago I personally handled a 1685 probate record in the MA Archives .It and the ink were as though it had been written a few years before not 200 So if the paper disintegrated it probably was wood based acidic paper. I have no idea what type of paper would have been used by a German state army. bob gillis bob gillis <robertgillis@verizon.net>

On 09-23-2012 12:30, Wes Groleau wrote: > Unfortunately, more than half of the things .... etc. Interestingly, I actually posted this a long time ago. Eternal-September must have had some sort of weird glitch. -- Wes Groleau “Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. But I'm not so sure about the universe.” — Albert Einstein Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org>

> My cousin who has been researching our family for years, says that > his mother had a document in German which she thought was John > George Hindelong's discharge papers from the German Army (Which army > is unknown) > > At some time in the last forty years I have been told that document > which was in a leather binder disappeared into dust before it could > be copied. > > Based on the age of the "Discharge" document, it could help > determine what generation came from German. > > 1st Generation ?Christian? b: ?1770-1890? > 2st Generation John George b:about 1810 > 3st Generation John Frederick b:1839 > > Assuming the discharge document was kept as a prized document in a > drawer, would anyone be willing to estimate how old the document > would be when it crumbled to dust? > > If this 1st generation ?Christian? was the a Christian Hindelong > from Russia who immigrated from Baiersbronn in 1804 to the US, the > discharge document would have been issued before 1804. It would > have been 140 - 160 years old when my cousin said it crumbled to > dust. > > Knowing the approximate life span of a document of this type could > help in my search as it would give me a better idea as to who was in > the army and when they came to America. > > Thank you for any help you can give me. > > Keith Nuttle Wood-pulp based paper was introduced around 1844. Prior to that, paper was linen-based (and expensive). Wood-pulp based paper is acidic and deteriorates fairly rapidly. (Think paperbacks published mid-20th century and the condition they're in now.) Linen (and, I would assume, cotton) based papers are fairly stable. So I would guess that John Frederick would be the likelier candidate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_paper More on the deterioration of paper: http://www.loc.gov/preservation/resources/care/deterioratebrochure.html -- Joe Makowiec http://makowiec.org/ Email: http://makowiec.org/contact/?Joe Usenet Improvement Project: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/ Joe Makowiec <makowiec@invalid.invalid>

> > A find a grave information with tomb stone information should be as > > good as any other information taken from a tombstone whether you > > photographed it or not. > > > > Keith Nuttle > > Unfortunately, more than half of the things put in the "Gravestone > transcription" box on FG are NOT from the stone, and most of the rest are not > accurate transcriptions. > > And I have personally examined dozens of stones to find that the dates have > been entered incorrectly. > > In two of the cemeteries I've visited, most of the entries were uploaded by a > single person, one of them apparently by retyping (without proof-reading) from > some record (not from stones), and the other by uploading some file from a > genealogical society that included NO birthdates, the cause of death, and a > long useless disclaimer that is identical on every entry and reaches the > character length limit mid-sentence. > > Wes Groleau Yes, it's good to point out there can be transcription errors, just like any other transcribed data, but hopefully there will be a photograph of the stone at findagrave. At the least, the information is there so a person can follow up, and for that reason, I think findagrave is a good resource. I'm sorry you have had a bad experience with transcription accuracy - I have not seen that yet. Again, like any other data, it needs to be verified. Lisa llepore@comcast.net

> At some time in the last forty years I have been told that document which was > in a leather binder disappeared into dust before it could be copied. > <snip> > Assuming the discharge document was kept as a prized document in a drawer, > would anyone be willing to estimate how old the document would be when it > crumbled to dust? > > Keith Nuttle <Keith_Nuttle@sbcglobal.net> Without knowing more about the environment, I wouldn't care to estimate... If the leather had a high latent acid content (left-over tannic acid), a few decades could result in a very yellowed and brittle document (at least the odds are good that the paper wasn't high-acid wood-pulp -- I've got paperbacks from ~1970 that look ready to crumble). The use of iron-gall ink could also contribute to an early demise of the paper. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_gall_ink If the binder had been stored in a cheap cardboard box, with other documents, the acidity of the box would have an effect. IOWs, the document could have been practically any age and still decompose in just the last half century if the storage conditions changed (humidity, acidity in the air or emitted from adjacent objects, etc.) -- Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber AF6VN wlfraed@ix.netcom.com HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

> > A find a grave information with tomb stone information should be as good as > > any other information taken from a tombstone whether you photographed it or > > not. > > > > Keith Nuttle > > Unfortunately, more than half of the things put in the "Gravestone > transcription" box on FG are NOT from the stone, and most of the rest are not > accurate transcriptions. > > And I have personally examined dozens of stones to find that the dates have > been entered incorrectly. > > In two of the cemeteries I've visited, most of the entries were uploaded by a > single person, one of them apparently by retyping (without proof-reading) from > some record (not from stones), and the other by uploading some file from a > genealogical society that included NO birthdates, the cause of death, and a > long useless disclaimer that is identical on every entry and reaches the > character length limit mid-sentence. > > Wes Groleau I was referring to tombstone pictures from find a grave. As you say transcribed information, where ever it is from, should be questioned. I have found differences in the cemetery records and the information on tombstones. Some time I thing there is no "correct" information, and for any date or any other piece of information, you have to find enough documentation to create an "average" with "Standard deviation" to determine it precision. Keith Nuttle <Keith_Nuttle@sbcglobal.net>