On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Charlene Charette wrote: >Sorry for the cross-post. I've never been sure exactly what is the >difference in these two groups and to which one I should post. > >In citing locations is there a "right" way? I've seen good arguments >for: > >state, county, city >city, county, state > >Does it really matter as long as it's consistent? I would find BOTH of those wrong, as it does not indicate the COUNTRY. Locations in the USA MUST SAY SO to be correct. I generally cite locations as city/town, county, state, country. Some countries don't have separate counties and states (Europe). Any further definition (such as a building or cemetery [depending on the event the place is tied to]) I leave to the event's notes.

On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Singhals wrote: >D. Stussy wrote: >> You might not share your database, but if we are talking about the >GEDCOM > >I wasn't; nor was the thread. The key word in my sentence >(deleted here) was _standard_. Correct, but there would be no need for any standard if there is no information interchange. Your position makes no sense - if you are not going to ever share your database, then it doesn't matter what its content says or how it's formatted, so what good is seeking a standard? Standards are created for interchange or interoperatbility, which for data formats, implies by DEFINITION, an exchange (or at minimum, the ability to do so). Why are you seeking a standard if you won't be doing this? >> standard for place naming, then we ARE talking about the sharing of databases >> in general (that's what GEDCOM is for). > >Actually, no, it isn't. GEDCOM was proposed for that reason, but >for reasons of economic clout, the development was largely at the >instance of the LDS church *because* it was an easy way for LDS >members to get the necessary parts of their data (name, date, >place) out of the genealogy program and into the Temple system. >And, for that to work properly, the format of the places has to >go small to large (otherwise the IGI shows Chev* instead of >Maryl). Non-LDS genealogists began using it to move data from >this program to that, with the results we've discussed here >before -- to wit, strange things happen to normal people.

On Thu, 17 Jan 2002, Richard A. Pence wrote: >"D. Stussy" <kd6lvw@bde-arc.ampr.org> wrote in message >news:Pine.LNX.4.10.10201112203270.24798-100000@exp.bde-arc.ampr.org... > >> ONE NAME for a place makes things easier..... > >It also can be a source of great confusion and error. Listing a birth in >1800 as being in New Orleans, Jefferson Parish, Louisiana, or as being in >1843 in Monroe County, West Virginia, is one thing. Most people will know >that Louisana was not a part of the U.S. in 1803 (nor was Massachussets in >1770, for that matter) or that what is now West Virginia was a part of >Virginia until the U.S. Civil War. > >However, the difficulty comes with lesser known units. If one uses "the >modern name" for a county, then it totally misleads the reader. > >For example, I often encounter databases which say that a certain couple was >married in Page County, Virginia, in 1789. This is quite impossible, for >Page County was not created until 1831. The couple was actually married in >Shenandoah County - and the importance of this to the genealogist is that >Shenandoah County is where the record of the even will be found. So? As I said, my database supports notes for place names. In your example, I would put Page County, but in the note, indicate something such as: "Prior to 1831, Page County was part of Shenandoah County...." As long as the note is attached (either in printed form or GEDCOM), what's the problem? >The best rule of thumb for place names is to try to identify the place in a >manner that allows the reader to know where he or she should search for a >record of the event. > >From 1760 through 1805, my fourth great grandfather, Henry Pence, lived on >the same plot of land. His children, however, were born in two different >counties - Frederick County prior to 1772 and Shenandoah County after 1772. >If you search for that land today, you will find it is in Page County. A similar thing has happened at the STATE level too. Not counting VA/WV, prior to independence, NH was carved out of MA around 1700 (and so was VT and ME, but VT wasn't populated yet). >If I were to use your method and put the place of birth and most of the >marriages of Henry's 17 children as being in Page County, not only would >this be an impossibility (there was no Page County at the time), any >researcher looking among the records of Page County would find no trace of >Henry or any member of his family - they all were in Ohio at least 20 years >before Page County was created. (Yet I can find countless instances on line >telling the world that this child or that was born in Page County or married >there.) It seems as if your database doesn't support what my program does.... >I just got through responding to a calendar question. In that thread, it >appears that an author of a time line tried to be helpful and by so doing >hopelessly confused the issue. > >The same thing happens when you try to make things "easier" by making it one >name place. As with dates, places should be entered as they were given in >the original record. A good genealogy program can handles this without too >much difficulty. I look at it from the point of view of: Where does one go to actually visit the place itself? Not: Where does one go to get records on the place?

"D. Stussy" <kd6lvw@bde-arc.ampr.org> wrote in message news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0201182203190.2028-100000@exp.bde-arc.ampr.org... > I look at it from the point of view of: Where does one go to actually visit > the place itself? Not: Where does one go to get records on the place? But which of these iis more important to a genealogical researcher? Admittedly, I galloped on a wild goose chase to the wrong county forty years ago. Further, I know that people will do it "my way" no matter the circumstances. However, the standard, accepted and recommended manner for entering places is to enter them as they were named AT THE TIME OF THE EVENT, accompanied by an appropriate footnote if circumstances dictate. "Translating" place names to their current name is considered to be an unwarranted and misleading alteration of historical data and a practice to be avoided. To be blunt, one criterion for evaluating an on-line database or a published genealogy is to to look at the place names in relation to the dates given. If the data says that someone was born in Page County in 1795 (36 years before it was formed), it is an indication the compiler lacks experience and the data is therefore suspect. Also, be careful how you use postal codes (ZIP in the U.S.) as a place indicator. These change more rapidly than place names. A good example is the Social Security Death Index. The original database maintained by the Social Security Administration has a ZIP code which represents the address of record with SSA at the time of death. Once the raw data from SSA reaches, for example, RootsWeb, it is enhanced by adding a city and state to the ZIP Code. Unfortunately, it is today's ZIP directory that is used to make the interpolation. In order to accurately translate the ZIP to a place, one would need a ZIP directory for the year of death. (This is why you sometimes see people complaining that the SSDI said a grandfather lived in a place that he never even visited! <g> Regards, Richard A. Pence, 3211 Adams Ct, Fairfax, VA 22030 Voice 703-591-4243 Fax 703-352-3560 Pence Family History <http://www.pipeline.com/~richardpence/>

"Richard A. Pence" wrote: > Also, be careful how you use postal codes (ZIP in the U.S.) as a place > indicator. These change more rapidly than place names. A good example is the > Social Security Death Index. The original database maintained by the Social > Security Administration has a ZIP code which represents the address of > record with SSA at the time of death. Once the raw data from SSA reaches, > for example, RootsWeb, it is enhanced by adding a city and state to the ZIP > Code. Unfortunately, it is today's ZIP directory that is used to make the > interpolation. In order to accurately translate the ZIP to a place, one > would need a ZIP directory for the year of death. (This is why you sometimes > see people complaining that the SSDI said a grandfather lived in a place > that he never even visited! <g> And then there's the problem of zip codes crossing county lines. I have this situation currently. On every database I've ever checked, putting in my zip code comes up with "Houston, Harris County" when I live in Fort Bend County. I'm not technically in any city, but the post office uses "Houston" as a convenience. --Charlene -- When a lion escapes from a circus in Africa, how do they know when they've caught the right one? --George Carlin ===== Free Book Searches (out-of-print, hard-to-find, foreign, used, new) - mailto:findbook@flash.net