Hi I have over 40 years experience in graphics and printing. I specialize in restoring old faded or damaged photos. I can also help you set up and create your own family book for publishing. I also offer DVD authoring if you wish to have your photos on DVD in a slide show format. If interested, contact me at my email. edmatte@msn.com Thanks Ed

"mike" <micell@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:o1kuf.44810$7h7.22632@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com... > Start with a grandfather who has two daughters > Both daughters marry and have sons > Will the sons (cousins) show a relation in a DNA test? > Thank you If the daughters had the same mother, and you check the mitochondrial DNA, yes. They will not show a match to each other in terms of y chromosomes unless their fathers were related in the male line. They will not show a match to the grandfather as he had a different mother. To summarize: mitochondrial DNA gives you the single, all female line - mother's mother's mother, etc. y chromosomes give you the single male line - father's father's father, etc. Break the link to gender - father's mother's father for example, and you won't find anything. Neither method will tell you where the common link was - it could be at the sibling level or at the 10x grandparent level - just that there is an unbroken line of the relevant gender. To show where the link was, you would need to use other genealogical tools. For example, prove that Kermit MacMuppet was the only person called MacMuppet in the area and it's reasonably certain that he founded the 5 different families from that area. If, however, his distant cousins Ralph and Munsta MacMuppet were also in the area at the time, the yDNA will not tell you which of the 3 is the patriarch of which family. Lesley Robertson Lesley Robertson

Start with a grandfather who has two daughters Both daughters marry and have sons Will the sons (cousins) show a relation in a DNA test? Thank you

"nanne" <nvisser2@home.nl> wrote in message news:dpb939$efe$1@news4.zwoll1.ov.home.nl... > Hi > does anyone have information about Omie de la Grange who came to New > Amsterdam (New York) in 1656 and Albany NY in 1672 and his decendants. > I do have some information about his whereabouts in The Netherlands before > 1656 > thanks > > Nanne J. Visser > The Netherlands. > > USA phone directory at http://www.infobel.com/usa has listings of about 196 Delagrange, De Lagrange listings. If you do an Internet search for "Omie de la Grange", you will get about 53 hits, some of which may be of help to you. Good luck. Joe in Georgetown, Texas, USA joepessarra@cox.net ` ,

Hi does anyone have information about Omie de la Grange who came to New Amsterdam (New York) in 1656 and Albany NY in 1672 and his decendants. I do have some information about his whereabouts in The Netherlands before 1656 thanks Nanne J. Visser The Netherlands.

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 19:21:47 -0500, Huntersglenn <huntersglenn@cox.net> wrote: >Steve Hayes wrote: >> >> >> As a friend of mine said, when he introduced us to ancestor hunting, and came >> with me to see an aunt, "They always know more than they think they do." >> >> So sometimes it is necessary to pester relatives for the information that they >> either think they don't know, or think you must already know and don't bother >> to tell you. > >Or, they could be like my grandmother, who was confused as to why anyone >would care where her grandparents and great-grandparents came from and >what they did and all of that. The 'old days' were times that nobody >cared about, or bothered with, not when getting by day-by-day was nearly >all consuming. > >I've noticed with my aunts and uncles that if I rephrase questions, I'll >get better and more thorough answers, and sometimes reminding them of a >particular incident will trigger other memories about their older relatives. But even the ones who ARE interested can reveal, when you present a new genealogical discovery that has taken you years of effort to find out, that they knew that all along. In one case I wrote to a second cousin in England. Or rather, I wrote to people of fouind in British telephone directories, and one worked in a bank of which my second cousin was a customer, and passed the letter on. We've been corrsponding for 25 years now, and I met her this year for the first time. But in the first letter I mentioned that when my father went to England for a scout jamboree at the age of 14, he met a cousin with the rather unusual name of Herrick Hayes. And so I asked this newly found second cousin several times if she knew anything about this Herrick Hayes, and she never replied. Eventually I traced him by another route, and when I told her she said "I thought you knew that". She could have tyold me when i asked her the first time, or the second time, or the third time, and eventuallu I have up asking because I thought it was some dark family secret that she didn't want to reveal. >When I was google searching for you, I saw Roger Thwaites and wondered >if he was a relation. I didn't realize that Roger Thwaites the writer >was the same as the singer -- very interesting <g>. Has he written other things then -- other than the history of Araluen? -- Steve Hayes Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 19:21:47 -0500, Huntersglenn <huntersglenn@cox.net> wrote: >Steve Hayes wrote: >> >> >> As a friend of mine said, when he introduced us to ancestor hunting, and came >> with me to see an aunt, "They always know more than they think they do." >> >> So sometimes it is necessary to pester relatives for the information that they >> either think they don't know, or think you must already know and don't bother >> to tell you. > >Or, they could be like my grandmother, who was confused as to why anyone >would care where her grandparents and great-grandparents came from and >what they did and all of that. The 'old days' were times that nobody >cared about, or bothered with, not when getting by day-by-day was nearly >all consuming. > >I've noticed with my aunts and uncles that if I rephrase questions, I'll >get better and more thorough answers, and sometimes reminding them of a >particular incident will trigger other memories about their older relatives. But even the ones who ARE interested can reveal, when you present a new genealogical discovery that has taken you years of effort to find out, that they knew that all along. In one case I wrote to a second cousin in England. Or rather, I wrote to people of fouind in British telephone directories, and one worked in a bank of which my second cousin was a customer, and passed the letter on. We've been corrsponding for 25 years now, and I met her this year for the first time. But in the first letter I mentioned that when my father went to England for a scout jamboree at the age of 14, he met a cousin with the rather unusual name of Herrick Hayes. And so I asked this newly found second cousin several times if she knew anything about this Herrick Hayes, and she never replied. Eventually I traced him by another route, and when I told her she said "I thought you knew that". She could have tyold me when i asked her the first time, or the second time, or the third time, and eventuallu I have up asking because I thought it was some dark family secret that she didn't want to reveal. >When I was google searching for you, I saw Roger Thwaites and wondered >if he was a relation. I didn't realize that Roger Thwaites the writer >was the same as the singer -- very interesting <g>. Has he written other things then -- other than the history of Araluen? -- Steve Hayes Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius

Steve Hayes wrote: > > > As a friend of mine said, when he introduced us to ancestor hunting, and came > with me to see an aunt, "They always know more than they think they do." > > So sometimes it is necessary to pester relatives for the information that they > either think they don't know, or think you must already know and don't bother > to tell you. Or, they could be like my grandmother, who was confused as to why anyone would care where her grandparents and great-grandparents came from and what they did and all of that. The 'old days' were times that nobody cared about, or bothered with, not when getting by day-by-day was nearly all consuming. I've noticed with my aunts and uncles that if I rephrase questions, I'll get better and more thorough answers, and sometimes reminding them of a particular incident will trigger other memories about their older relatives. When I was google searching for you, I saw Roger Thwaites and wondered if he was a relation. I didn't realize that Roger Thwaites the writer was the same as the singer -- very interesting <g>. Cathy

"Steve Hayes" <hayesmstw@hotmail.com> wrote in message > Thanks very much - he seems to have been a fairly prolific novelist. Novels > sometimes say things in the blurb like "He lives in X with his wife, two > children and a cat". Actually I've now discovered that he was born and died in > Sydney. He lived at Moss Vale in the Southern Highlands of NSW for many years - near Bong Bong Church. There is a street named after him there.

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 01:06:31 +1100, "Keith Radford" <keilyn03@tpg.com.au> wrote: >>>"Steve Hayes" <hayesmstw@hotmail.com> wrote in message >>>news:grv2r1t18olj491imke90hosp7guoko87v@4ax.com... >>>>> >>> >>> Hi Steve, >> Yes, she died as "Agnes Margaret Anne Thwaites", father William Green, >> mother >> Margaret Gray, at 60 Shepherd Street, Marrickville. Informant on the death >> certificate was her son Walter Wm Thwaites. Born Nova Scotia, North >> America, 8 >> years in South Australia, 7 years in Victoria, 20 years in NSW. >> >> She married Thwaites twice, once in Sydney, and the second time in >> Adelaide, >> with four children being born in bertween (but his previous wife was still >> alive). . >> >>> Wilson was drowned in the >>>> Tuross River in New South Wales on 21 April 1856, >>>> leaving her, >>>> aged 20, with two young children. Shortly after that she >>>> married >>>> Alfred John Dawson FRANCIS, by whom she had four more >>>> children >From http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/search.htm >marriage > 1518/1858 FRANCIS ALFRED J D WILSON MARGARET A A BROULEE > >Births > 6076/1859 FRANCIS (FEMALE) ALFRED J D AGNES M A BROULEE > > 6162/1861 FRANCIS ARTHUR W ALFRED J D MARGARET A A BROULEE > > 6381/1862 FRANCIS EDITH L ALFRED J D MARGARET A A BROULEE > > 14090/1864 FRANCIS LOUISA ALFRED J D MARGARET A A QUEANBEYAN > > > > AGCI has a christening of > >Ada Francis >at Gunning NSW on 3 Feb 1874 >Source Parish Register >Held by Heraldy & Genealogical Society Canberra Interesting, that ... she seems to have been baptised twice then, as, according to one family member, there is a record of her being baptised at Braidwood as an infant, or perhaps the priest from Braidwood travelled round the district baptising infants in other villages. Ada seems not to have been mentioned in the family again when they left Queanbeyan in 185 for Sydney, so perhaps her mother dumped her there (as she had already dumped her two youngest to be brought up by other families) and when she came to get married she had no baptism certificate, so was rebaptised. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (see web page if it doesn't work) Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7783/

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 09:17:08 +1100, "MargM" <genknut@optusnet.com.au> wrote: > >"Steve Hayes" <hayesmstw@hotmail.com> wrote in message >news:grv2r1t18olj491imke90hosp7guoko87v@4ax.com... > >Hi again Steve > >> The mystery attaches to her first two husbands, and >> especially >> Alfred John Dawson FRANCIS. >> >> >> his eldest daughter by Agnes GREEN also had FAIRFAX in >> her name. > > >She is the 4th child ........... Found her later last >night in the NSW birth indexes under 'unnamed' child of >Alfred JD FRANCIS and Agnes MA > > >> >>> MARRIED 20 Aug 1879 in Adelaide, SA, to THWAITES, >>> Walter William >> McLean, Born ??? 1841 in Sydney, NSW, Australia, Died >> 20 Mar >> 1908 in Victoria, Australia at age 67; FATHER: >> THWAITES, >> Walter William, Born ??? 1814, Died Feb 1888 at age 74; >> MOTHER: MCLEAN, Jane >> >> MARRIED 2 May 1871 in Sydney, NSW until 20 Aug 1879 in >> Adelaide, >> SA, to THWAITES, Walter William McLean, Born ??? 1841 >> in >> Sydney, NSW, Australia, Died 20 Mar 1908 in Victoria, >> Australia at age 67; FATHER: THWAITES, Walter William, >> Born >> ??? 1814, Died Feb 1888 at age 74; MOTHER: MCLEAN, >> Jane; >> Married first in Sydney, then again in Adelaide, >> because >> Sydney marriage was bigamous. > > > ??? So would the South AUS marriage be!! If your married >somewhere then you are married. Any subsiquent marriage >if spouse still living would be bigamous where ever it >occured > > > >> Source: death date - family tree sent by Bob Cowley > > > I wondered if he's been in touch with the Eden Monaro >FHS ?? > >> 3. F FRANCIS, Ada Anne Angeline Fairfax, born 10 Mar >> 1859 in >> Bodalla, NSW, AUS, died 9 Nov 1938 in Ashfield, >> NSW, AUS; >> Married 1 Aug 1894 to WHITE, William > > >Ada Anne WHITE was living at Eidleigh Station, Hoskinstown >Eden - Monaro NSW 1903 Electoral roll > >Percy COWLEY was a stock Inspector at Tenterfeild NSW 1903 >E roll > >Walter Wm Alfred THWAITES was a photographer of 123 >Enmore Rd Newtown , 1903 E roll > Could be more info on him in the 'Electronic Eye ' book Thnks very much for that... each bit adds to the picture. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (see web page if it doesn't work) Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7783/

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 12:49:56 +1100, "Farm1" <please@askifyouwannaknow> wrote: >"Steve Hayes" <hayesmstw@hotmail.com> wrote in message > >> Thanks very much - he seems to have been a fairly prolific novelist. >Novels >> sometimes say things in the blurb like "He lives in X with his wife, two >> children and a cat". Actually I've now discovered that he was born and >died in >> Sydney. > >He lived at Moss Vale in the Southern Highlands of NSW for many years - near >Bong Bong Church. There is a street named after him there. Thanks for that too. I've also discovered in the last couple of days that his son Roger was a folk singer in the 1960s and 1970s, and wrote a history of Araluen with his first wife, which is still sold by the Braidwood Historical Society. So now I'm anxious to get contact info for Roger Thwaites, as if he is both related and clued up about local history he might be the best person to discuss some of the queries with. I learnt of Roger's existence and name from someone who read my original query here, and found the info in the intro to one of FJ Thwaites's books -- he had dedicated the book to his new-born granddaughter, and so named her, and gave her date of birth. But that's one of the interesting things about family history. We knew that there was some relation who had married a Thwaites, because there was a record of the Bank of Montreal sending a sum of money to a Mrs Thwaites in Australia, granddaughter of its founder and first President, John Gray. We had a letter from a granddaughter of this Mrs Thwaites, about 18 years ago, telling us who she was and how she fitted in to the family (we knew of her first two husbands, not of Thwaites, who was her 3rd and 4th). We corresponded for a while, asking about Thwaites descendants, but this cousin wrote a couple of times, seemed clearly interested in the family history, and then stopped writing. So for 18 years we've been trying on and off to find out about the children of F.J. Thwaites and those of his siblings. It turns out that the cousin we had written to know him, had copies of all his books, and could have told us all this 18 years ago, but didn't. As a friend of mine said, when he introduced us to ancestor hunting, and came with me to see an aunt, "They always know more than they think they do." So sometimes it is necessary to pester relatives for the information that they either think they don't know, or think you must already know and don't bother to tell you. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (see web page if it doesn't work) Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7783/

"Steve Hayes" <hayesmstw@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:grv2r1t18olj491imke90hosp7guoko87v@4ax.com... Hi again Steve > The mystery attaches to her first two husbands, and > especially > Alfred John Dawson FRANCIS. > > > his eldest daughter by Agnes GREEN also had FAIRFAX in > her name. She is the 4th child ........... Found her later last night in the NSW birth indexes under 'unnamed' child of Alfred JD FRANCIS and Agnes MA > >> MARRIED 20 Aug 1879 in Adelaide, SA, to THWAITES, >> Walter William > McLean, Born ??? 1841 in Sydney, NSW, Australia, Died > 20 Mar > 1908 in Victoria, Australia at age 67; FATHER: > THWAITES, > Walter William, Born ??? 1814, Died Feb 1888 at age 74; > MOTHER: MCLEAN, Jane > > MARRIED 2 May 1871 in Sydney, NSW until 20 Aug 1879 in > Adelaide, > SA, to THWAITES, Walter William McLean, Born ??? 1841 > in > Sydney, NSW, Australia, Died 20 Mar 1908 in Victoria, > Australia at age 67; FATHER: THWAITES, Walter William, > Born > ??? 1814, Died Feb 1888 at age 74; MOTHER: MCLEAN, > Jane; > Married first in Sydney, then again in Adelaide, > because > Sydney marriage was bigamous. ??? So would the South AUS marriage be!! If your married somewhere then you are married. Any subsiquent marriage if spouse still living would be bigamous where ever it occured > Source: death date - family tree sent by Bob Cowley I wondered if he's been in touch with the Eden Monaro FHS ?? > 3. F FRANCIS, Ada Anne Angeline Fairfax, born 10 Mar > 1859 in > Bodalla, NSW, AUS, died 9 Nov 1938 in Ashfield, > NSW, AUS; > Married 1 Aug 1894 to WHITE, William Ada Anne WHITE was living at Eidleigh Station, Hoskinstown Eden - Monaro NSW 1903 Electoral roll Percy COWLEY was a stock Inspector at Tenterfeild NSW 1903 E roll Walter Wm Alfred THWAITES was a photographer of 123 Enmore Rd Newtown , 1903 E roll Could be more info on him in the 'Electronic Eye ' book Bye -- MargM Beautiful Central Coast of NSW

>>"Steve Hayes" <hayesmstw@hotmail.com> wrote in message >>news:grv2r1t18olj491imke90hosp7guoko87v@4ax.com... >>>> >> >> Hi Steve, > Yes, she died as "Agnes Margaret Anne Thwaites", father William Green, > mother > Margaret Gray, at 60 Shepherd Street, Marrickville. Informant on the death > certificate was her son Walter Wm Thwaites. Born Nova Scotia, North > America, 8 > years in South Australia, 7 years in Victoria, 20 years in NSW. > > She married Thwaites twice, once in Sydney, and the second time in > Adelaide, > with four children being born in bertween (but his previous wife was still > alive). . > >> Wilson was drowned in the >>> Tuross River in New South Wales on 21 April 1856, >>> leaving her, >>> aged 20, with two young children. Shortly after that she >>> married >>> Alfred John Dawson FRANCIS, by whom she had four more >>> children From http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/search.htm marriage 1518/1858 FRANCIS ALFRED J D WILSON MARGARET A A BROULEE Births 6076/1859 FRANCIS (FEMALE) ALFRED J D AGNES M A BROULEE 6162/1861 FRANCIS ARTHUR W ALFRED J D MARGARET A A BROULEE 6381/1862 FRANCIS EDITH L ALFRED J D MARGARET A A BROULEE 14090/1864 FRANCIS LOUISA ALFRED J D MARGARET A A QUEANBEYAN AGCI has a christening of Ada Francis at Gunning NSW on 3 Feb 1874 Source Parish Register Held by Heraldy & Genealogical Society Canberra >>> (though there is some doubt about the fourth), > >> Can only find 3 Arthur W b Broulee 1861 Edith Lb 1862 >>Broulee >> Louisa b 1864 Queanbeyan all registered under FRANCIS > > Well the missing one, Ada, was supposed to have been born in bodalla, but > was > apparently never mentioned again in the family after about 1865, when they > bleft Queanbeyan for Sydney. Perhaps they dropped her off en route! > > >>Alfred John DAWSON , miner - storekeeper of Dwyers Creek >>went bankrupt in 17 Aug 1860 file # 5053 > > Now that is very interesting -- where was Dwyers Creek in relation to > Moruya > and neighbouring areas? Dwyers Creek is part / near Moruya (shares same post code 2537 see map on following link http://www.dlg.nsw.gov.au/dlg/dlghome/dlg_Regions.asp?regiontype=2&slacode=2750&region=SE Kind regards, Lynne

"Steve Hayes" <hayesmstw@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:grv2r1t18olj491imke90hosp7guoko87v@4ax.com... >> Hi Steve, I am read thru this a few times and am having trouble following the story in particular the Family History system merged group reports . I tried to find the surname Margt Agnes Ann died under ( d 1902 Marrickville ), but drew a blank ? . Did she marry this THWAITES bloke in Adelaide 1879 ? I am more than happy to help but this seems to be very muddled if you dont know anything about this family as I dont Wilson was drowned in the > Tuross River in New South Wales on 21 April 1856, > leaving her, > aged 20, with two young children. Shortly after that she > married > Alfred John Dawson FRANCIS, by whom she had four more > children > (though there is some doubt about the fourth), Can only find 3 Arthur W b Broulee 1861 Edith Lb 1862 Broulee Louisa b 1864 Queanbeyan all registered under FRANCIS Alfred John DAWSON , miner - storekeeper of Dwyers Creek went bankrupt in 17 Aug 1860 file # 5053 See NSW State Records on line indexes www.records.nsw.gov.au and then he > committed suicide in a Sydney boarding house on 5 March > 1864. > There might be a surviving inquest file out at State Records ?????? Indexes to NSW Coronial inquests are on film from abt 1800 and something - 1942 in a lot of larger libraries . Might be a report in the Sydney Morning Herald too ? Bye -- MargM Beautiful Central Coast of NSW Australia

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 18:52:26 +1100, "MargM" <genknut@optusnet.com.au> wrote: > >"Steve Hayes" <hayesmstw@hotmail.com> wrote in message >news:grv2r1t18olj491imke90hosp7guoko87v@4ax.com... >>> > > Hi Steve, > >I am read thru this a few times and am having trouble >following the story in particular the Family History >system merged group reports . I tried to find the >surname Margt Agnes Ann died under >( d 1902 Marrickville ), but drew a blank ? . Did she >marry this THWAITES bloke in Adelaide 1879 ? > >I am more than happy to help but this seems to be very >muddled if you dont know anything about this family as I >dont Yes, she died as "Agnes Margaret Anne Thwaites", father William Green, mother Margaret Gray, at 60 Shepherd Street, Marrickville. Informant on the death certificate was her son Walter Wm Thwaites. Born Nova Scotia, North America, 8 years in South Australia, 7 years in Victoria, 20 years in NSW. She married Thwaites twice, once in Sydney, and the second time in Adelaide, with four children being born in bertween (but his previous wife was still alive). . > Wilson was drowned in the >> Tuross River in New South Wales on 21 April 1856, >> leaving her, >> aged 20, with two young children. Shortly after that she >> married >> Alfred John Dawson FRANCIS, by whom she had four more >> children >> (though there is some doubt about the fourth), > Can only find 3 Arthur W b Broulee 1861 Edith Lb 1862 >Broulee > Louisa b 1864 Queanbeyan all registered under FRANCIS Well the missing one, Ada, was supposed to have been born in bodalla, but was apparently never mentioned again in the family after about 1865, when they bleft Queanbeyan for Sydney. Perhaps they dropped her off en route! >Alfred John DAWSON , miner - storekeeper of Dwyers Creek >went bankrupt in 17 Aug 1860 file # 5053 Now that is very interesting -- where was Dwyers Creek in relation to Moruya and neighbouring areas? > >See NSW State Records on line indexes >www.records.nsw.gov.au > > >and then he >> committed suicide in a Sydney boarding house on 5 March >> 1864. >> > > >There might be a surviving inquest file out at State >Records ?????? > > Indexes to NSW Coronial inquests are on film from abt >1800 and something - 1942 in a lot of larger libraries >. > > Might be a report in the Sydney Morning Herald too ? Thanks very much! -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (see web page if it doesn't work) Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7783/

I have researched my family history and that of most Hutley families where I can since 1986 - Hutley is an Essex surname in origin. My own line is from Stansted Mountfitchet, Essex and all Hutley's from that immediate area are of all one larger family which I have researched and documented back to the early 1600's at this time. I am writing a book on 'the' family and as much on other Hutley lines as possible, both to be informative as much as a guide. I would be very interested to know more of any Hutley origins and linage and I can assist others research wherever possible, as I don't see our heritage has a copyright on it. I can be more easily emailed on richardhutley@yahoo.co.uk. I have a free 'Hutley' Community group started at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hutley/ I am the administrator for a Rootsweb mailing list on Hutley, which is free to subscribe to and messages can be posted asking for help, seeking contacts, info or just providing details of your own line for others to share. You just need to email HUTLEY-L@rootsweb and enter 'subscribe' in the subject and text to be added. Regards Richard Hutley

A few days ago some kind genealogists in Australia helped me to solve a genealogical problem concerning the author Frederick Joseph THWAITES. I have another problem, which I hope Australian (and other) expertise may help me to solve -- it concerns the grandmother of Frederick Joseph THWAITES (or rather her husband). Margaret Agnes Anne GREEN (known as Agnes) was born in Nova Scotia, Canada, She was about 11 when her widowed father, William GREEN, of the Commissariat, was transferred to the Cape Colony. She married a man named WILSON, known variously as William, Napoleon or John Wilson, allegedly in the Cape Colony, though no record of the marriage has been found. Wilson was drowned in the Tuross River in New South Wales on 21 April 1856, leaving her, aged 20, with two young children. Shortly after that she married Alfred John Dawson FRANCIS, by whom she had four more children (though there is some doubt about the fourth), and then he committed suicide in a Sydney boarding house on 5 March 1864. The mystery attaches to her first two husbands, and especially Alfred John Dawson FRANCIS. One thing I want to establish is whether he was ever in Natal colony in the early 1850s. Shelagh Spencer has been publishing (over the last 30 years) a series of volumes on "British settlers in Natal", and in the D volume there is a description of an "Alfred Francis DAWSON" who seems to have been a mysterious character. No one knew quite where he came from. He had two teenage children, and a wife, Octavia, who was far too young to have borne either of them. There were a couple of younger children by his wife Octavia, and in the register at St Paul's Church Durban the surname DAWSON has been deleted and FRANCIS substituted, with a note that the cor- rect name of the family was FRANCIS. Alfred Francis DAWSON, or Alfred Dawson FRANCIS, played a quite prominent role in the social life of the colony, was a churchwarden, and was also cited as co-respondent in a divorce case, and seems to have had an eye for the ladies. His wife Octavia drowned in a boating accident, and DAWSON disappeared from the scene soon afterwards, leaving as mysteriously as he had arrived. Shelagh Spencer notes that a Mr Francis left on a boat to Port Elizabeth, accompanied by two children. Then a couple of years later an Alfred Dawson Francis turns up in New South Wales and marries a girl from the Eastern Cape, she a widow, and he a widower. His first wife appears to have been Christiana FOX, and they had two children, Dean and Alfred. Dean was witness at his wedding to Agnes Green. But at one of her weddings she gave her maiden name as GLASGOW, so it seems as if there was something strange going on (her grandmother's sister had married an artillery officer. George GLASGOW, in Canada). On another occasion her name was given as Agnes Eliot. There are a couple of other indications to suggest that the Alfred Dawson Francis of NSW may have been the same person as the Alfred Francis Dawson of Natal. One was that one of the children in Natal (the younger ones by Octavia) had the name FAIRFAX, and his eldest daughter by Agnes GREEN also had FAIRFAX in her name. There was also a family rumour (probably unreliable) that there was a family connection to the English Gothic novelist, Horace WALPOLE. The older children by the first wife are about the right age for the ones who were with the family in Natal. Anyway, what I was wondering was if there might be any evidence anywhere to suggest that the Alfred Dawson Francis who committed suicide in Sydney was ever in Natal. That would solve the mystery of that mysterious character. Another question is if there is anything to suggest what happened to his first wife, Christiana FOX. She does not seem to have died in Australia. Perhaps she died in the Cape Colony, or perhaps he abandoned her there. I hope this does not trespass too much on the generosity of people who helped so much with the THWAITES query! Here's a summary of the family information: Family History System 27 Dec 2005 Merged Group Reports NAME: GREEN, Margaret Agnes Ann, Born 8 Dec 1835 in Nova Scotia, Died 26 Dec 1902 in Marrickville, NSW, AUS at age 67; FATHER: GREEN, William John (Goodall), Born 28 Aug 1790, Died 9 Apr 1866 at age 75; MOTHER: GRAY, Margaret, Born 18 May 1795, Died 11 May 1844? at age 48 MARRIED 20 Aug 1879 in Adelaide, SA, to THWAITES, Walter William McLean, Born ??? 1841 in Sydney, NSW, Australia, Died 20 Mar 1908 in Victoria, Australia at age 67; FATHER: THWAITES, Walter William, Born ??? 1814, Died Feb 1888 at age 74; MOTHER: MCLEAN, Jane MARRIED 2 May 1871 in Sydney, NSW until 20 Aug 1879 in Adelaide, SA, to THWAITES, Walter William McLean, Born ??? 1841 in Sydney, NSW, Australia, Died 20 Mar 1908 in Victoria, Australia at age 67; FATHER: THWAITES, Walter William, Born ??? 1814, Died Feb 1888 at age 74; MOTHER: MCLEAN, Jane; Married first in Sydney, then again in Adelaide, because Sydney marriage was bigamous. MARRIED 9 Jan 1858 in Gundary, NSW, to FRANCIS, Alfred John Dawson, Born ??? 1820? in Liverpool, England, Died 5 Mar 1864 in Sydney, NSW at age 44; FATHER: FRANCIS, John; Witness: Dean Francis. He was a widower, she a widow, both of Bodalla.; Source: death date - family tree sent by Bob Cowley MARRIED ??? 1851 in Cape Town, to WILSON, William, Born ??? 1823? in Camberwell, London, Died 21 Apr 1856 in Tuross River, NSW at age 33; According to W. Wilson's death certificate, he married Margaret Agnes Glasgow at the Cape of Good Hope at the age of 28. CHILDREN: 1. F WILSON, Caroline Agnes, born 20 Apr 1854 in Sydney, NSW, died 7 Dec 1946 in North Havelock, NZ; Married 21 Jul 1874 to BRATHWAITE, Robert Ashley Warre; 8 children 2. F WILSON, Emily Eleanora, born 23 Aug 1855 in New South Wales, died 18 Jun 1859 in Yarragee, NSW, AUS 3. F FRANCIS, Ada Anne Angeline Fairfax, born 10 Mar 1859 in Bodalla, NSW, AUS, died 9 Nov 1938 in Ashfield, NSW, AUS; Married 1 Aug 1894 to WHITE, William 4. M FRANCIS, Arthur Walpole, born 7 Jan 1861 in Moruya, NSW, died 8 May 1921 in Mariental Dist. SWA; Married 2 Nov 1887 to DONOVAN, Ida Miranda Willoughby; 3 children 5. F FRANCIS, Edith Lilian, born 20 Aug 1862 in Yarragee, NSW, died 13 Oct 1926 in Melbourne, Vic. Aust.; Married 10 Oct 1885 to BRIDGES, William Throsby; 7 children 6. F FRANCIS, Louisa, born 3 Nov 1864 in Queanbeyan, NSW, died 18 Mar 1943 in Tenterfield, NSW; Married 24 Dec 1883 to COWLEY, Percy; 10 children 7. F THWAITES, Margaret Jane, born 20 Mar 1872 in Sydney, died ??? in Sydney 8. M THWAITES, Walter William Alfred, born 2 Jan 1874 in Sydney, NSW, Australia, died ???; Married 25 Jul 1895 to SAVAGE, Emily Victoria; 6 children 9. M THWAITES, Herbert Edward, born 28 Nov 1875 in Australia, died 28 Jan 1937 in Boksburg; Married to BRITTAIN, Motty Adeline; 2 children 10. F THWAITES, Elizabeth, born ??? 1876, died ??? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * NAME: FRANCIS, Alfred John Dawson, Born ??? 1820? in Liverpool, England, Died 5 Mar 1864 in Sydney, NSW at age 44; FATHER: FRANCIS, John; Source: death date - family tree sent by Bob Cowley MARRIED 9 Jan 1858 in Gundary, NSW, to GREEN, Margaret Agnes Ann, Born 8 Dec 1835 in Nova Scotia, Died 26 Dec 1902 in Marrickville, NSW, AUS at age 67; FATHER: GREEN, William John (Goodall), Born 28 Aug 1790, Died 9 Apr 1866 at age 75; MOTHER: GRAY, Margaret, Born 18 May 1795, Died 11 May 1844? at age 48; Witness: Dean Francis. He was a widower, she a widow, both of Bodalla. MARRIED 14 Jul 1842 in Lancaster, LAN, ENG, to DEAN, Christiana Fox CHILDREN: 1. M FRANCIS, Dean, born ??? 1843, died ???; Married 24 Jan 1865 to BOOT, Eliza Angelina Hopkinson 2. M FRANCIS, Alfred, born ??? 1844, died ??? 3. F FRANCIS, Ada Anne Angeline Fairfax, born 10 Mar 1859 in Bodalla, NSW, AUS, died 9 Nov 1938 in Ashfield, NSW, AUS; Married 1 Aug 1894 to WHITE, William 4. M FRANCIS, Arthur Walpole, born 7 Jan 1861 in Moruya, NSW, died 8 May 1921 in Mariental Dist. SWA; Married 2 Nov 1887 to DONOVAN, Ida Miranda Willoughby; 3 children 5. F FRANCIS, Edith Lilian, born 20 Aug 1862 in Yarragee, NSW, died 13 Oct 1926 in Melbourne, Vic. Aust.; Married 10 Oct 1885 to BRIDGES, William Throsby; 7 children 6. F FRANCIS, Louisa, born 3 Nov 1864 in Queanbeyan, NSW, died 18 Mar 1943 in Tenterfield, NSW; Married 24 Dec 1883 to COWLEY, Percy; 10 children -- Steve Hayes E-mail: hayesmstw@hotmail.com (see web page if it doesn't work) Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7783/

Huntersglenn wrote: > Not sure if this will complicate things, since you already have on > clipping about where Thwaites was born, but www.imdb.com has that he > wrote the screenplay for "Broken Melody" as F. W. Thwaites, and was born > on 23 May, 1908 in Balmain, Sydney, New South Wales, and died 13, August > 1979 in Manly, Sydney, New South Wales. Most of the time, the bio > information on the site has the name or e-mail of who provided it, but > not in this case, so it could be that the location of his birth is a > fabrication, or best guess. > > Cathy > > Steve Hayes wrote: > >> On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 12:44:07 +1100, Paul Blair <pblair@pcug.org.au> >> wrote: >> >> >>> The National Library of Australia has some bio clippings - have >>> photographed and forwarded to Steve. >> >> >> >> Thanks very much, Paul. >> I received a number of responses by e-mail. One cited an article that >> referred >> to Thwaites as a counter-example to an an alleged Australian literary >> phenomenon called "the cultural cringe". >> >> http://www.the-rathouse.com/Another_look_at_the_Cultural_Cringe.htm >> >> I post it here in case anyone in rec.arts.books is interested. >> Paul's cuttings were very useful, and I reproduce one here, in case >> anyone is >> curious: >> >> -- begin quote -- >> THWAITES, AUTHOR OF 32 NOVELS >> >> The Australian author F.J. Thwaites died in a Sydney hospital on >> Monday. He >> was 71. >> Mr Thwaites, who wrote 32 novels and two travel books had been >> suffering from >> cancer for some time. >> >> His first book, The Broken Melody, which he wrote at the age of 17, was >> produced by Ken Hall as one of the earliest Australian films. >> Mr Thwaites was born of a working class family in the country town of >> Narrandera, where he worked on a milk run while at school. >> >> When the family moved to Gladesville, he was forced to leave school to >> support >> the family. He was then 13. During this time he studied at night at a >> technical college. >> After writing The Broken Melody, he toured the countryside trying to >> sell it. >> The first copy was exchanged for a new tyre for his car. >> His books, including Hell's Doorways, Shall Come A Time, and The Melody >> Lingers, have sold millions of copies. Some have been translated into >> several >> languages. >> While in South Africa about five years ago Mr Thwaites went almost >> blind from >> an infection. He was then driving from England to Australia. One of >> his last >> books, Press On Regardless, details this experience. >> Mr Thwaites is survived by his wife, Jessica, and his sons Peter and >> Roger. >> Mrs Thwaites appeared in several early Australian fims under her >> maiden name >> Jessica Harcourt. >> >> The funeral will be held at Northern Suburbs Crematorium at 10:30 am >> tomorrow. >> >> The urn containing his ashes will be taken to a cemetery at a later date. >> -- end quote -- >> >> >>> For such a prolific author, there is a quite surprising lack of info >>> available about him. >> >> >> >> Certainly there seems to be little on the web; this indicates that one >> cannot >> do genealogy using sources found on the Internet alone, though of course >> without Usenet newsgroups I would not have been able to find kind >> people like >> Paul who could go to the library and consult other sources. >> I would have expected something to be available in sources like the >> following: >> >> The Penguin New Literary History of Australia (Bennett et al., 1988) >> The Oxford Companion to Australian Literature (Wilde, Wh 1985) >> >> Anyway, this is just to say thanks to everyone who helped, and >> especially Paul >> who made a special trip to the library! >> The other bio I'm getting for Steve also says that he was born in Balmain (a suburb of Sydney). Paul

Steve Hayes wrote: > On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 08:10:59 +1100, Paul Blair <pblair@pcug.org.au> wrote: > > >>Steve Hayes wrote: >> >>>I'm looking for genealogical and biographical information on Frderick Joseph >>>Thwaites (1908-1979), an Australian author. > > >>Jog along to www.nla.gov.au and opt for the catalogue. Then enter >>"Thwaites Frederick" for an author. There are many books listed. > > > Thanks very much - he seems to have been a fairly prolific novelist. Novels > sometimes say things in the blurb like "He lives in X with his wife, two > children and a cat". Actually I've now discovered that he was born and died in > Sydney. > > >>The library is closed for a few days, but it would be possible for me to >>visit, draw out some books, and see what they say. I'd bet there won't >>be much bio info, but you can only try. > > > Thanks very much, that would be good if it's not too much hassle. Maybe you > could ask the librarian if there's any biographical information available -- > they sometimes have compilations of things like "Great Australian authors". > > The National Library of Australia has some bio clippings - have photographed and forwarded to Steve. For such a prolific author, there is a quite surprising lack of info available about him. Paul