Greg & Mike W, I find myself at the same time agreeing with both of you. Interesting since you have different emphasis in your views. Genetic genealogy is basically a science based exercise. Should we be putting this debate into a statistical framework? What I mean is.... a) If you are not a scientific person, and you are a new tester but not via FTDNA what percentage of the world pool of Y-DNA tested persons can you expect to compare to. b) If you have some science understanding, and some skill at searching, and you are a new tester but not at FTDNA, what percentage of the world pool of Y-DNA tested persons can expect to cover using public tools like YSearch, Semargl.me, public FTDNA project pages, Google, forums, etc. c) What percentage of the world Y-DNA pool do you need to reach to make significant progress if your name is Smith, or Rumplestiltskin, or if you are haplogroup R1b, or haplogroup A0000, or adopted. I would suggest in case (a), you might be a lost sole with access to next to zero percent matches unless you test at FTDNA. I would suggest that in case (b) you might be able by smart searching to be able to reach 25 to 75% of the World Y-DNA pool, which in many cases would get you a long way down the road of discovery. I would suggest that in case (c), it comes down to luck... some people are just rare breeds, and they need to have access to a huge pool to find a match, others might find all their answers without having to look. I speculate that for 50% of people, 10% of the World pool would be sufficient to significantly progress them, but for 10% of people 50% of the World pool would be necessary to get progress. I speculate for 1% of people 90% of the world pool would be a bare minimum. Sometimes, if there are 10 matches in the whole world, you only need to find one of them to answer your burning questions. If you first match happens to be an obsessed genetic genealogist on this Genealogy-DNA forum, you might just strike gold! So to that extent, comparing to 10% of the world might suffice. Now putting this in some sort of wobbly perspective for a low budget new tester.... 37 markers at YSeq would in most cases be better that 12 markers at FTDNA, it you don't envisage selling your bicycle to push testing further in the future. But you would still need some search skills to discover Y-Search as a bare minimum. We have to remember searching can go 2 ways. You searching for someone, or someone searching for you. If you get 37 markers on YSearch, there is a possibility that your matches may find you even if they are not on public databases themselves. John. Sent from my iPad > On 7/12/2015, at 9:47 am, G. Magoon via <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > The case based on database size is fine, from a practical standpoint; but > in the absence of any other benefit, the argument basically boils down to: "I > am recommending you test at FTDNA because I and most others have been > recommending FTDNA previously." > > Personally, I think it would be stupendous if someone was able to set up an > independent matching system (analogous to GEDMATCH) for Y-STRs (and mtDNA > for that matter). With such a tool, prospective testers wouldn't have to > worry so much about having to pay a significantly higher price in order to > get that "ticket" into a large database. > > Your post also raises the question: how much is that "ticket" worth to a > prospective tester? 50% extra cost? 100% higher cost? 200% higher cost? > Personally, I think that is a decision that should be made by the > prospective tester (or the person paying for the test), based on financial > considerations, goals, etc. From my perspective, it is not as simple as > "there is only one choice". > > I'm glad you raised the issue about results living on for posterity, which > I also think is an important consideration. But I think testers at all > labs, including FTDNA, would be wise to take appropriate safegaurds in this > respect. An organization or business will typically only have a finite > lifespan, and there are no guarantees that results will be > hosted/maintained in perpetuity, FTDNA included. > > Again, just my two cents. > > Greg > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 1:37 PM, Mike W via <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> > wrote: > >> Recruiting others to test, project and results sharing systems is critical. >> This is the essence of genetic genealogy as comparisons between people and >> sharing of results are needed. >> >> If possible, it is good in Y DNA testing to recruit get your most distant >> male cousin to test so you can estimate the DNA information for the >> family's most distant known ancestor (MDKA). However, it is hard to recruit >> people on the other side of your genealogical brickwalls and you may not >> want to pay for someone's tests you may not be related too. Ideally, you >> want people who are inclined towards DNA testing to find you or for you to >> find them through a matching database. >> >> The importance of a consistent set of test results available in a large >> matching database can not be understated. This is FTDNA's most dominant >> advantage for Y DNA, the largest accessible database. There hundreds of >> thousands of Y DNA records already available in FTDNA's database. These are >> records of real people, not just anonymous results. For more details, >> please read this web page. >> https://www.familytreedna.com/why-ftdna.aspx >> >> Cost is a factor, but when you get your Y STRs tested with FTDNA you are >> also getting a ticket into that large database and project management >> system with all of those surname projects. FTDNA allows you to join >> projects without cost and there is no annual subscription fee for support >> in their database and matching systems as well. >> >> Genetic test results data without the accompanying web based project and >> matching systems is not as useful and may not live on for prosperity. When >> you order STR and SNP tests from FTDNA your data is supported by a growing >> company with a 15 year, self-sustaining operation. You don't have to send >> your DNA sample to multiple labs. You and your recruits' samples all go to >> Houston's lab and are stored there subject to published privacy policies. >> This is particularly important if you think you only have one shot to get a >> DNA sample from a recruit. >> >> The central lab and DNA storage support is complemented by a full product >> line. Besides Y DNA testing up to 111 STRs, there is Y SNP testing and even >> Y Next Generation SNP discovery testing (Big Y) along with an array of >> autosomal and mitochondrial DNA tests. You have "one stop shopping" for >> your DNA sample. >> >> I'm not known for political correctness and we do not want to scare you off >> newbies but it is important that we acknowledge - It is very, very likely >> that 37 Y STRs is not enough. I recommend you starting with a minimum of 67 >> STRs. Most of the male large haplogroup branches of Europe started their >> great expansions during the Bronze Age. That means that it is very hard to >> discern who fits where at 37 STRs. 67 may not even be enough. Probably many >> of the people posting here, even those who prefer niche vendors, have 67 >> and even 111 STRs tested with FTDNA. >> >> Regards, >> Mike W >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> GENEALOGY-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GENEALOGY-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message